np: UU Stage 12 - A Beautiful Lie

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Erazor

✓ Just Doug It
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
There were reasons that Froslass was banned in DPPt, and those reasons are unchanged, I feel, in this metagame.

The short and sweet version is that Spikes enable a bunch of powerful attackers in the tier to get KOs easily, and Froslass is the best spiker. Plus it spinblocks.

The only thing that seems to have changed is that Rapid Spinning has become even worse from DPPt to B/W. Oh, and Froslass became better because of Cursed Body. So I think that Froslass is definitely worthy of a suspect test.
 

Arkian

What's wrong with being confident?
is a Contributor Alumnus
There were reasons that Froslass was banned in DPPt, and those reasons are unchanged, I feel, in this metagame.

The short and sweet version is that Spikes enable a bunch of powerful attackers in the tier to get KOs easily, and Froslass is the best spiker. Plus it spinblocks.

The only thing that seems to have changed is that Rapid Spinning has become even worse from DPPt to B/W. Oh, and Froslass became better because of Cursed Body. So I think that Froslass is definitely worthy of a suspect test.
I second this, although, Froslass isn't much of a spinblocker as it dies after 2-3 turns.

On top of that, Froslass also has access to a very fast Destiny Bond, and with Focus Sash equipped, the only way you can get out of it is by PP stalling, using priority Taunt (Sableye, Tornadus), or having a Choice Scarfed Cinccinno/Ambipom.

Froslass also gets past Xatu with ease, as Ice Beam (its main STAB) 3HKOes it (sometimes even 2HKOes), while Xatu can only 3HKO back, making Froslass the winner of such a situation.

EDIT: @Explorer: Even if Haxorus drops, Froslass will be faster, enabling it to Destiny Bond Haxorus and kill it while it kills Froslass. Oh and I prefer Slowbro as a bulky Water-type, however, Swampert is an excellent physically-based tank. Empoleon is a good bulky Specs user, and also a really good late-game cleaner. I never cared for Blastoise, and I really never will.
 
I don't see why Froslass' Ghost typing is getting all this praise. The set used to set up Spikes is called 'SUICIDE Lead'. Obviously, this means that Froslass will be gone after she sets up her Spikes. Since Froslass is gone, you still need another Ghost to spinblock, so that advantage of hers is gone. Although it may seem like i'm against a suspect test, I'm actually all for it. Froslass provides incredible support to offensive teams, and she does it with little hassle. The Spikes that Froslass can set up so easily can shift the momentum of the game just by turning a 2HKO into a OHKO, and that's really the reason why Froslass is being suspected.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
I don't see why Froslass' Ghost typing is getting all this praise. The set used to set up Spikes is called 'SUICIDE Lead'. Obviously, this means that Froslass will be gone after she sets up her Spikes. Since Froslass is gone, you still need another Ghost to spinblock, so that advantage of hers is gone. Although it may seem like i'm against a suspect test, I'm actually all for it. Froslass provides incredible support to offensive teams, and she does it with little hassle. The Spikes that Froslass can set up so easily can shift the momentum of the game just by turning a 2HKO into a OHKO, and that's really the reason why Froslass is being suspected.
The suicide lead is not the only set Froslass uses. Froslass has a bulky set as well, and as Kokoloko stated earlier, there's a reason the bulky set is listed first on the analysis page. Froslass's Ghost-typing is actually quite useful on the bulky set as you can abuse Pain Split and not die after setting up spikes. Most good players would actually argue that bulky Froslass, although harder to use, is much more consistent when used properly.
 
Bulky attacker


tree house (Abomasnow) @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer / Seed Bomb
- Earthquake

this set requires a good prediction but can be totally devastating for the opponent with hazard support and with the right prediction, hail damage really help to this set to down faster the opponent mostly to fyre types like Darmanitan and Victini, Druddigon is a great temmate for this set that i make because down this fire types physical since SR up + hail damage + rough skin, also Druddigon can nails Bronzong with Flame + Sheer Force or with Mold Breaker + EQ. Trick Room mons support like Slowbro(king) or Cofagrigus are good temmates to this set too because have a decent sinergy and Abomasnow appreciated this because is a bit slow like sweeper, TR + SD with priority after this is great. This set can be hard to stop with right prediction, a good plan in game and finally who is gonna expecting a SD Abomasnow? no one :)
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
The suicide lead is not the only set Froslass uses. Froslass has a bulky set as well, and as Kokoloko stated earlier, there's a reason the bulky set is listed first on the analysis page. Froslass's Ghost-typing is actually quite useful on the bulky set as you can abuse Pain Split and not die after setting up spikes. Most good players would actually argue that bulky Froslass, although harder to use, is much more consistent when used properly.
If the bulky set is "listed first on the analysis page" for a reason, then why are all the suspect reasons based on the lead suicide set?

But your point about being hard to use is sort of my entire point of why Froslass doesn't deserve to be suspected. Yes, Froslass can be deadly in the right hands. It can set up lots and lots of hazards on players who aren't very experienced. However, regardless of which set is better, the fact remains that Pain Split on Froslass is used less than Spikes (84%), Destiny Bond (77%), Ice Beam, Taunt, Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, and Substitute. What I'm trying to say here is that Suicide Lead Froslass is overwhelmingly the majority of Frosslass used in the meta, and therefore it should only be considered for suspect based on that set. No matter how good the bulky Pain Split set might be, the fact that so few people use it makes it completely nontoxic to the metagame purely because it isn't used.

For the sake of fairness, I'm going to compare and contrast the various spikers in the tier based on their main hazard-laying set, because that's what we should be suspecting froslass for.



Pros:

+ Access to Destiny Bond
+ Access to fast Taunt/DBond, allows it to outspeed most nonscarf
+ Access to Thunder Wave
+ Moderately strong stab in Ice Beam and access to TundraBolt if coverage is desired over utility
+ Cursed Body hax
+ Ghost typing makes it immune to Fighting and Normal-Type attacks as well as most priority
+ Can not be frozen

Cons:

- Weakness to SR combined with extreme frailty makes it only useful very early-game
- 5 weaknesses
- Is very predictable
- Can easily be outpredicted by speed-boosting sweepers (DD Scrafty, Sub Sharpedo) and become fodder for a sweep
- Loses to faster Taunt or Prankster (Sableye, Tornadus)
- Loses to multihit moves like Rhyperior's Rock Blast
- Early death in most games makes it ineffective as a spinblocker
- Loses to VoltTurn + Scarfer



Pros:

+ Access to Destiny Bond
+ Access to Thunder Wave
+ Access to Taunt
+ Access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes
+ Access to Pain Split for reliable recovery
+ Decent speed and attack
+ Intimidate makes it a long-lasting spiker as well as an amazing physical wall
+ Access to Haze
+ Access to Explosion for pseudo-hazing
+ Optional dual stab options
+ 3 Weaknesses
+ Wide variety and use of utility moves makes it unpredictable
+ Useful as a lead and/or a mid-game player
+ Grounded Poison typing makes it able to absorb TSpikes
+ Immune to Toxic

Cons:

- Awful special bulk
- Poison typing makes it less effective of a physical wall when faced with Flygon/Krookodile
- Middling speed makes it lose out on some Destiny Bond KOs that Froslass gets
- Weak to Volt Switch



Pros:

+ Access to Toxic Spikes and/or Spikes
+ Access to strong stabs in Giga Drain, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb
+ Access to Sleep Powder
+ Access to reliable recovery with Synthesis / Rest + Natural Cure
+ Natural Cure makes it relatively immune to status
+ Grounded Poison typing makes it able to absorb TSpikes
+ Can and viably does run a very strong offensive LO set
+ Amazing special Defense and resistances to Water and Electric
+ Beats out most rapid spinners by scaring them out with offense
+ Usable as a lead or as a mid-game poke
+ High-average speed and amazing special attack
+ Variety and usage of different sets makes it not immediately predictable
+ Immune to Toxic

Cons:

- Very physically frail
- Unfortunate weaknesses to Fire and Ice limit its usability as a pure special wall
- Not fast enough to outspeed some threats that Froslass does


I could also compare it with things like Accelgor or Scolipede, but these are the three main spikers in the tier, and once again I think it's important that we focus on things that are commonly used.

From doing this, it basically helped me understand the true differences in spikers. What they all have in common is useful typing (ghost immunities and toxic spike absorbs/poison immunities), amazing abilities (Cursed Body, Intimidate, Natural Cure), and varying degrees of decent coverage and attack stats. The tradeoff from using Froslass over another spiker is mainly in bulk, predictability and utility, whereas you gain around 25-30 BP in speed. Whether or not it's really worth it to give something up early game in order to possibly take out a pokemon with DBond and lay a few spikes is a matter easily under contention, but I personally think that Froslass is equally if not less viable than other spikers in the tier and should be judged as such, and no suspect of Froslass should take place.

P.S. It's possible that my semi-biased view may have clouded the accuracy of the Pros/Cons list. If I did leave any cons or pros out (and I did try and include them all), just tell me and I'll make note of them.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Kitten Milk said:
What I'm trying to say here is that Suicide Lead Froslass is overwhelmingly the majority of Frosslass used in the meta, and therefore it should only be considered for suspect based on that set. No matter how good the bulky Pain Split set might be, the fact that so few people use it makes it completely nontoxic to the metagame purely because it isn't used.
That's really not a fair statement, IMO. If we use this logic, then why are we even bothering to suspect things like Chandelure and Victini then? The whole premise for suspecting Chandelure was that its only safe switch-ins were Snorlax and Porygon2. Then people started to argue that those two weren't even safe because of Will-o-Wisp and/or Flame Body. The whole reason we're suspecting Victini now is because its special set absolutely nukes its normal counters, despite the fact that Choice Band/Scarf is and always will be the more popular set by a longshot. I really don't think it's a fair statement to say we shouldn't suspect something just because the general public is too dumb to use the better set correctly. We suspect things on how good and how potentially broken they are, not because the general masses do or don't use a set.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Honestly, this proposal to ban Froslass just seems like a desire to change for change's sake. The metagame is just fine as is, and Froslass' presence in it isn't particularly unhealthy either.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
That's really not a fair statement, IMO. If we use this logic, then why are we even bothering to suspect things like Chandelure and Victini then? The whole premise for suspecting Chandelure was that its only safe switch-ins were Snorlax and Porygon2. Then people started to argue that those two weren't even safe because of Will-o-Wisp and/or Flame Body. The whole reason we're suspecting Victini now is because its special set absolutely nukes its normal counters, despite the fact that Choice Band/Scarf is and always will be the more popular set by a longshot. I really don't think it's a fair statement to say we shouldn't suspect something just because the general public is too dumb to use the better set correctly. We suspect things on how good and how potentially broken they are, not because the general masses do or don't use a set.

The difference is that Special Victini is increasingly, and somewhat commonly being used. Around 8% of all Victini were running Timid Max SpA, and the common moves for the special set like Blue Flare and Psychic are pushing 20% usage. Pain Split doesn't even make it on the list of moves, and is lumped into Other.

More importantly, the viable and used set for Victini is able to aptly deal with its counters, making it much harder to counter and thus much more suspect to being suspected ;). On the other hand, SubPainsplit Froslass has the same and even more counters, still losing to things like Rhyperior, Cinccino, scarfers, etc.


Finally, I think you're misinterpreting the idea of what a suspect should be for. In my opinion, if no one uses a set that should have absolutely no bearing on the suspect. Similar to as you said, Chandelure relying on Will-O to beat Snorlax etc., no one ever used Will-O Chandelure regardless of its merits, making that an invalid argument. Chandelure's suspect ended up with it not being banned, partly because those arguments were so invalid. Similarly, it would be ridiculous to use the argument that bulky Froslass is viable and suspectable if no one uses it. If Tirtouga suddenly secretly got a +100 boost to all of its stats, making it broken and overpowered, yet it retained its May usage of absolute 0, it wouldn't need to be banned purely because it doesn't affect the metagame significantly whatsoever.

What I'm trying to get at is that something shouldn't be banned if it's good. Something should be banned if it is both so good and so prevalent in the metagame that it is either overcentralizing or toxic to the health of the metagame, neither of which Froslass comes close to doing.
 
I honestly don't think Haxorus would be broken in UU. He shouldn't even be OU due to him being outclassed in every role he tries to perform. Dragon dance sweeper? Hello the faster, Moxie-wielding Salamence with Fire Blast to take down Skarmory. Choice Bander? Hello Extremespeed-widling Dragonite. Choice Scarfer? Good morning Kyurem-B. You're a fan of double-Dancing? Terrakion says hi.

In UU though, things like Sableye, Slowbro, and Bronzong would keep it in check, as would powerful priority users like Arcanine and Bisharp. It would be dangerous, to be sure, but no more dangerous than say, Garchomp is in OU, who has a similar list of checks and effective move options.

-----

I am a huge lover of Reuniclus in OU though, and quite frankly I don't see why more people don;t use it. Being countered by Scizor and checked by Tyranitar and Volcarona is annoying, sure, but it shouldn't stop it being used by the entirety of OU players. If it drops to UU, rest assured I will abuse it to its fullest.

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Oh yeah, and Victini is not broken at all, it's just a top-tier threat. These morons who want it banned need to learn the freaking difference. Darmanitan hits considerably harder than Victini for just 5 less speed points, it has Sheer Force to augment its power even further, and doesn't posses a weakness to Sucker Punch and Pursuit that Victini does. The only thing Victini really has over it, that makes people fear it more, is access to fusion Bolt to take care of a lot of bulky waters. It is weak to SR (which prevents it abusing U-Turn constantly) and Pursuit, several priority moves (Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet), and has solid checks such as Swampert, Bisharp and Chandelure that can swiftly punish it for selecting the wrong move. Victini's special sets are mediocre at best too, with Pokemon like Zapdos and Chandelure bearing considerably higher power.

Victini is not broken, it can be tough to deal with but has plenty of checks and common weaknesses including Stealth Rock.
 
I honestly don't think Haxorus would be broken in UU. He shouldn't even be OU due to him being outclassed in every role he tries to perform. Dragon dance sweeper? Hello the faster, Moxie-wielding Salamence with Fire Blast to take down Skarmory. Choice Bander? Hello Extremespeed-widling Dragonite. Choice Scarfer? Good morning Kyurem-B. You're a fan of double-Dancing? Terrakion says hi.

In UU though, things like Sableye, Slowbro, and Bronzong would keep it in check, as would powerful priority users like Arcanine and Bisharp. It would be dangerous, to be sure, but no more dangerous than say, Garchomp is in OU, who has a similar list of checks and effective move options.
You can't be serious if you're saying Haxorus won't be broken in UU. Please name me at least one Pokemon that cannot get 2HKO'd by Haxorus's might Outrage (Tip: You can't). Bronzong cannot check Haxorus at all, have you forgotten that Haxorus has Mold Breaker Earthquake? So yeah, it's ignoring Levitate entirely and EQ will just flat out murder Bronzong. Also, Sableye's Will-O-Wisp will be useless before Hax fires Outrage because tbh most Haxorus will be running a Lum Berry to cure themselves of status. Also, for the record, here's a +1 Haxorus calc against Pokemon that might look like counters on paper.

+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 240-283 (61.06 - 72.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-200 (49.27 - 58.3%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 197-232 (63.96 - 75.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 177-208 (62.32 - 73.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, this is pretty insane, even Steel-types such as Bisharp and Empoleon are unable to safely check Haxorus if it clicks Outrage, hell Escavalier can only have a chance to switch in safely if SR is off the field, which it rarely is. It even 2HKO's Slowbro and Tangrowth, two Pokemon that are extremely bulky physically, which is something. (Also I checked calcs against Porygon2 and Dusclops, two very bulky Pokemon, and even they get 2HKO'd).

Haxorus can also run Double Dance and CB very well, and Scarf Haxorus too. It is going to be absolutely insane because of its lack of any hard counters. Stall teams are basically going to cringe, as not even insanely bulky Pokemon are enough of a savior, and offensive teams need to hope it doesn't grab a DD or they're blown.
 
I honestly don't think Haxorus would be broken in UU.
I disagree, Haxorus' presence would encourage players to use faster offense orientated teams over slower bulkier ones in order to not get swept by it. Haxorus is capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing nearly every Pokemon in the tier... including the dedicated walls.
 
I honestly don't think Haxorus would be broken in UU. He shouldn't even be OU due to him being outclassed in every role he tries to perform. Dragon dance sweeper? Hello the faster, Moxie-wielding Salamence with Fire Blast to take down Skarmory. Choice Bander? Hello Extremespeed-widling Dragonite. Choice Scarfer? Good morning Kyurem-B. You're a fan of double-Dancing? Terrakion says hi.

In UU though, things like Sableye, Slowbro, and Bronzong would keep it in check, as would powerful priority users like Arcanine and Bisharp. It would be dangerous, to be sure, but no more dangerous than say, Garchomp is in OU, who has a similar list of checks and effective move options.

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I am a huge lover of Reuniclus in OU though, and quite frankly I don't see why more people don;t use it. Being countered by Scizor and checked by Tyranitar and Volcarona is annoying, sure, but it shouldn't stop it being used by the entirety of OU players. If it drops to UU, rest assured I will abuse it to its fullest.

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Oh yeah, and Victini is not broken at all, it's just a top-tier threat. These morons who want it banned need to learn the freaking difference. Darmanitan hits considerably harder than Victini for just 5 less speed points, it has Sheer Force to augment its power even further, and doesn't posses a weakness to Sucker Punch and Pursuit that Victini does. The only thing Victini really has over it, that makes people fear it more, is access to fusion Bolt to take care of a lot of bulky waters. It is weak to SR (which prevents it abusing U-Turn constantly) and Pursuit, several priority moves (Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet), and has solid checks such as Swampert, Bisharp and Chandelure that can swiftly punish it for selecting the wrong move. Victini's special sets are mediocre at best too, with Pokemon like Zapdos and Chandelure bearing considerably higher power.

Victini is not broken, it can be tough to deal with but has plenty of checks and common weaknesses including Stealth Rock.
Your half-baked reasoning is exactly why we get nowhere with what could otherwise be good discussion for suspect tests. It's only a mercy that the senate excludes troll-logic like this really.

I'll leave you to read Scrafty's post as to why you are so badly wrong about haxorus for starters, but as for victini, please do some reading before you make dumb statements like this. Firstly, your "prediction argument" works both ways, so...
-swampert gets either badly weakned/KO'd from grass knot
-bisharp gets KO'd from either the physical or special set
-as for chandelure, I'd be having a look at your own stupid SR argument for starters, and then consider that you're getting 2HKO'd before you can hit back anyway if SR is up (if my main damage calculator wasn't down, I'd be calling you out on this further).

You also fail to take into account Victini's bulk when you suggest those priority moves. Nothing with shadow sneak is achieving a 1HKO anytime soon, sucker punch is a shaky move to use at best, although I'll pass on aqua jet as I'm not too certain on azumarril vs victini at the moment.

You also need to realise SR IS NOT A CHECK. Honestly its staggering how bloody stupid some people are when it comes to SR and checking things. contrary to popular belief, SR only limits the number of times a pokemon can switch in. It does not stop in anyway whatsoever the pokemon from attacking and potentially netting a KO. A check in this instance would be something that can switch in and prevent the attack from doing major damage.

-Slowbro for example, would qualify as a check as it can take (usually) victini's STAB attacks quite well, but struggles against the use of the move bolt strike or grass knot.
-Snorlax can act as a check to the special sets and possibly a deterrent to physical sets after victini KO's something with V-create, due to the threat of being pursuit trapped, especially with lowered stats causing pursuit to do more damage.

Does SR stop victini from attacking? Does it deter victini attacking? No it does not. That is the key difference you need to learn, before making statements such as SR checks pokemon. To be fair to you, at least you aren't the only one who needs to understand this (I'm looking at several people here, especially those who dropped this dumb statement repeatedly during the chandelure suspect thread).

I'm also going to have a go at the notion SR is always on the field. This statement is incorrect. The correct statement you are all looking for is that SR is commonly on the field. This is an important distinction because despite our great hazard setters and spinblockers versus out incredibly crap spinners/Xatu/anti-hazard sets, it is actually quite possible to stop hazards being placed on the field, or removed if they do get there. Its actually somewhat impressive what lengths people will go to in order to keep SR and the like off the field of play, simply because they wish to build a hazard weak team. The important thing however is that you CANNOT simply apply a blanket statement in that SR is always on the field. To give a rather poor example of double standards, let me bring up some of the logic used in the chansey and chandelure suspect threads

-Chansey thread: "You can't factor in SR damage when trying to show that it can be 1HKO'd"
-Chandelure thread: "Chandy is always taking 25% damage just from switching in because SR"

Notice the hypocracy here yet? If you don't, you need to read again. You do not get to pick and choose conditions for suspect tests, nor do you get to apply conditions to your arguments if they do not occur 100% of the time I'm bolding that for reference so that others who have made this mistake before can take note.

Finally, you seem to overlook the fact Victini can use either attacking spectrum, whereas chandelure and zapdos are very much limited to the special side. This is it's biggest selling point, and in part, the main reason for the suspect test. The ability to eliminate counters because you have no way to guess what set is being run is a very good, and potentially suspect worthy aspect to have. This is even moreso when you have access to very high base power moves, good attacking STABS, and the ability to pivot.

TL;DR : Learn to read. I don't write walls of text just to have them ignored. Also pay attention to the bolded bit and the text before that if you really must shorten things.
 
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