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In what world are Suicune and PDef Swampert (or Mega Swampert) 2HKO'd by unboosted Outrage? I'm on mobile, so do you have any calcs that can back up that claim?
This was common knowledge from a previous generation.
+0 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
This calc by itself should be self-explanatory since both Swampert and Mega Swampert have worse physical bulk than Suicune.
What is the purpose in running Double Dance Feraligatr when Agility + Swords Dance achieves the same thing as Dragon Dance does as a total? I mean, sure, using only one or the other kind of sounds cool, but I feel like Dragon Dance, being the blend of both, is likely better than Double Dance. Just two coverage moves will leave it walled by a lot, but I think a Mixed set might be unique. Waterfall / Ice Beam / Superpower / Crunch has potential to run through walls like crazy x_x. But then again, Water-types keep it in check hard. This could be where SD comes in handy! I feel SD + 3 Attacks would be flat out better than AgiliDance because coverage, ya know?
Agility can be used lategame against offense when the extra power of boosts is not needed to secures ohkos while SD helps against stall when the extra speed is used to wallbreak. Although double dance does makes you walled by bulky waters or grass types.
In what world are Suicune and PDef Swampert (or Mega Swampert) 2HKO'd by unboosted Outrage? I'm on mobile, so do you have any calcs that can back up that claim?
...My bad, it appears that I missed a few things in the damage calculator.
Suicune is fine vs non LO variants, but the problem with the defensive variants of swampert and its mega is 4MSS. Megapert is badly affected wanting to run all of restalk (mandatory), EQ, Scald and Roar to begin with. Ice beam/punch is solely for salamence, which essentially compromises its movepool vs the rest of the metagame. Ditto for regular form which wants to run the standard rocks, roar, scald and EQ. Even with phazing, you're still taking massive damage from outrage on mons that have semi-reliable recovery at best, and lefties only in the case of swampert.
Can confirm you'd either run Crunch or Body Slam over Return. Crunch has (obviously) better coverage, hitting bulky Psychics and Slowking, while Body Slam is just a wee bit stronger. Return is actually about as optimal as Take Down in this scenario, weaker than BP 80 Sheer Force moves AND taking Life Orb recoil.
Are you guys thinking Jolly or Adamant? You fail to outspeed Mega Beedrill either way (who 2HKOs you with U-turn and Poison Jab, or can Knock Off your Life Orb, but gets OHKO'd by any move you carry), but Jolly puts you at 420 (blaze it) while Adamant puts you at 382 after a boost.
To those of you saying that Gatr was never very good anyway: I agree. It was lacking in power. To those of you saying that Sheer Force won't make it a big threat: Have you guys forgotten what Sheer Force did for Nidoking and Nidoqueen? Hell, Feraligatr could conceivably run a mixed set, since it has higher Special Attack than Nidoqueen, on top of some really fucking good physical moves that are boosted by Sheer Force and some absolutely workable special moves. Not to mention mono-Water typing, so GameFreak gave it a shitton of good toys. Sheer Force Feraligatr is gonna be brutal, and frankly, the Swords Dance set is going to be a terrifying wallbreaker, while Dragon Dance is going to be an extremely effective late-game cleaner.
Jesus, finally got some time to play with the suspects (plus other cool mons I didnt think too much of).
Terrakion is insanely good in this meta for sure. it's speed, power, and offensive typing are all completely out of this world. It's main issues would obviously be it's fairly defensive typing, leaving it incapable of switching into stuff like suicune and serperior. It's most certainly gonna get banned, but I honestly wouldnt lose too much sleep if it didnt.
Salamence is one that Im quite on the fence about. it's is stupidly dangerous after a boost, and decent bulk+ intermidate makes setting up fairly easily. It is extremely strong, but not to the point where the meta would be incapable of adapting to it, or to the point where it would be overcentralizing.
Heracross is really good, but not broken IMO. it's a better machamp, but it has plenty of checks, and is in no way toxic to the metagame IMO.
RIP Pinsir, lets hope you go back to OU once new toy symdrome is finally over.
After a council vote, Serperior and Terrakion have been banned from UU.
Serperior's ban reasoning
With a 130 BP STAB move that boosts its Special Attack by two stages, a great base Speed of 113, and a decent set of utility moves, Serperior is an extremely potent sweeper. Unlike other setup sweepers, it doesn't have to use a turn setting up where it's vulnerable to opposing attacks or status; it can simply revenge kill a weakened Pokemon and set up on the same turn. There is a large number of Pokemon on which it can set up, including every bulky Water- or Ground-type in the tier, which are staples on most teams. Serperior's third and fourth move options allow it to cripple or flat out beat some checks or counters: Glare can cripple faster switchins including Scarfers, while Taunt + Synthesis allows it to beat every special wall that tries to status or phaze it. In addition, it's Speed tier limits the Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill it to Scarfers or faster Pokemon with a super effective move. Slower offensive answers take a huge amount of damage from +2 Leaf Storm; for example Chandelure is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Because of this, Serperior has very few reliable answers in the current metagame and thus is a huge restriction to teambuilding.
Terrakion's ban reasoning
Terrakion is easily one of the most versatile wallbreakers, with access to both Rock Polish and Swords Dance. Its incredible offensive movepool and dual STAB offensive coverage makes it nearly unbeatable with proper team support. Although the tier has been shifting to a more offensive metagame, Terrakion simply overwhelms any defensive checks, with Doublade being the main way to get around it. However, the argument that one pokemon can mitigate the offensive pressure off the tier is incorrect, as Terrakion has the movepool to prepare for absolutely any situation that it needs.
Although I'm sure many of you guys saw the Terrakion ban coming, the Serp ban might be surprising to some. That's why, starting (EDIT) in 2 weeks, Serperior is going to be UU's first public suspect. That's right - UU is finally going to have a suspect ladder and a public vote! More details will be in the OP that I will post when the test goes live.
Ok, terrakions gone, nice. That thing was just unspeakable in terms of power and stuff. But what I'm really surprised about is the serp ban but no mence ban. Several people have talked about how ridiculous mence is with one boost, and can easily destroy dedicated physical walls with a surprise special move. Why as this guy not banned, while serp is banned instead. Not opposing the council's decision, I'm just throwing this question out there
Although I'm sure many of you guys saw the Terrakion ban coming, the Serp ban might be surprising to some. That's why, starting tomorrow, Serperior is going to be UU's first public suspect. That's right - UU is finally going to have a suspect ladder and a public vote! More details will be in the OP that I will post when the test goes live.
After a council vote, Serperior and Terrakion have been banned from UU.
Serperior's ban reasoning
With a 130 BP STAB move that boosts its Special Attack by two stages, a great base Speed of 113, and a decent set of utility moves, Serperior is an extremely potent sweeper. Unlike other setup sweepers, it doesn't have to use a turn setting up where it's vulnerable to opposing attacks or status; it can simply revenge kill a weakened Pokemon and set up on the same turn. There is a large number of Pokemon on which it can set up, including every bulky Water- or Ground-type in the tier, which are staples on most teams. Serperior's third and fourth move options allow it to cripple or flat out beat some checks or counters: Glare can cripple faster switchins including Scarfers, while Taunt + Synthesis allows it to beat every special wall that tries to status or phaze it. In addition, it's Speed tier limits the Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill it to Scarfers or faster Pokemon with a super effective move. Slower offensive answers take a huge amount of damage from +2 Leaf Storm; for example Chandelure is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Because of this, Serperior has very few reliable answers in the current metagame and thus is a huge restriction to teambuilding.
Terrakion's ban reasoning
Terrakion is easily one of the most versatile wallbreakers, with access to both Rock Polish and Swords Dance. Its incredible offensive movepool and dual STAB offensive coverage makes it nearly unbeatable with proper team support. Although the tier has been shifting to a more offensive metagame, Terrakion simply overwhelms any defensive checks, with Doublade being the main way to get around it. However, the argument that one pokemon can mitigate the offensive pressure off the tier is incorrect, as Terrakion has the movepool to prepare for absolutely any situation that it needs.
Although I'm sure many of you guys saw the Terrakion ban coming, the Serp ban might be surprising to some. That's why, starting tomorrow, Serperior is going to be UU's first public suspect. That's right - UU is finally going to have a suspect ladder and a public vote! More details will be in the OP that I will post when the test goes live.
Public suspect test in UU!? I knew having co-leaders was going to be a mistake. Look what you've done, you maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to h--okay, it's not actually that big of a deal. Just, you know. I'll be interested in seeing the tier without Serperior, though. Kinda interesting to see a PU Pokemon make the leap to BL in only a month or so.
Thank fuck Terrakion's gone. Now we can all shut up about what made it broken (hint: It wasn't the Double Dance set, though that was probably miserable enough to face) and get back a semblance of a balanced tier. Glad to see that Salamence still is here. It sure as shit wasn't broken when Terrakion was in the tier, but now we'll see if it is without the best Scarfer in the tier no longer here to revenge it.
sad to see terra gone cause doublade was getting some love, but ya it will be really interesting to see what happens to mence with no terrak to revenge kill it, and teambuilding will be much easiar
rip uu being 100% HO
Serp is definitely great in tbis meta. Theres only a handful of mons that could literally check it without getting bopped by hidden power or glare. Very proud of how tbis snake did lol
Terrakion was pretty obvious lol any news about mence though?
Also, will the suspect ladder be separate from public ladder, or is there not enough of a following to warrant that?
sad to see terra gone cause doublade was getting some love, but ya it will be really interesting to see what happens to mence with no terrak to revenge kill it, and teambuilding will be much easiar
rip uu being 100% HO
Yeah after people actually learnt how to use Serperior well instead of mindlessly spamming leaf storm, it very quickly became a little much for the meta to handle. Depending on the support moves its running it can do major damage to pretty much any playstyle. Looking forward to seeing this thing out of UU.
No need to really say much for Terrakion at this point. None of my teams were prepared for it anyway. I can see Salamence getting more usage, since it can set up on the other fighting types in the tier now that Terrak is gone. Of course things like Mienshao and Heracross can carry Stone Edge, but those are mainly on choiced variants so it's not that big of an issue imo.
Heliolisk and Jolteon have suddenly become so much better since they don't have Serperior as competition against Bulky-Water Types. Especially Lisk, since it can get HP back after a scald.
Hey guys, another announcement! So as to not interfere with UULT, we're gonna postpone the suspect ladder until the laddering portion of the tournament is finished. Sorry!
Ye helio is def more viable now. It has good ass coverage with Electric Normal already, coupled with the fact it has Grass Knot and Surf at is deposal. Its gonna be a great pivot for offense teams since grounds don't want to come in on it. Like a core of Helio/Entei/Hydrei will work great together with just smacking shit around.
I didn't really see too many Terrakions; probably because people didn't use it due to it being pretty obvious that it was gonna get banned sooner or later.
Heliolisk and Jolteon have suddenly become so much better since they don't have Serperior as competition against Bulky-Water Types. Especially Lisk, since it can get HP back after a scald.
With Raikou gone, either or is now generally the electric type of choice. Both don't hit as hard but Jolteon is faster and Heliolisk checks water types well. It's pretty surprising to see just this little detail can cause them to become more viable.
