np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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Not that I necessarily agree with the sentiment, but if Spikes are so overwhelmingly useful as to be harmful to the metagame, is merely banning the top Spikers (Roserade, Froslass, Deoxys-D) really enough to solve the problem?

I mean, we're incapable of banning Spikes outright, so presumably people would just start looking at other Spikers, like Accelgor and Omastar, and we'd be back at square one. Even if they're not as good at the job as the top three, that seems pretty inconsequential because we still have the situation with spinners being meh compared to spin blockers.

I don't know that I agree that Spikes are so good as to require a banning of some sort, but if they are, wouldn't just banning Rose/Lass/Deo basically be the same thing as trying to nerf Snow Cloak by just banning Abomasnow, and not Snover?
 

DetroitLolcat

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If Spikes are so overwhelmingly useful to the metagame that they become broken (not true, by the way), then I think banning the Spikers, or at least one of them, will be enough to fix the problem. Of course Accelgor and Omastar (and Qwilfish, one of the most underrated Pokemon in UU) could easily take the places of the big three, but they blatantly will not be as good as the big three.

Accelgor and Omastar don't see much usage because Accelgor is frail and weak to priority and Omastar should be smashing its shell anyway. If the big three were to go we'd see more of them but they simply can't get their Spikes down as well as Rosey, Deo, and Froslass. It would be nothing like banning Abomasnow instead of Snover because in the Hail debate, it was obvious that the abusers were the problem. With the Spikes debate, it's the facility with which the Spikers can lay down their Spikes. There is enough of a power gulf between Roserade and Accelgor to warrant a look at Roserade instead. Deoxys-D has mammoth defenses, Froslass can annoy like hell and can Spin-block at the same time, and Roserade can smack stuff with Leaf Storms and Sludge Bombs while Accelgor fires off piss-weak Bug Buzzes, gets set up on because of a lack of Taunt, and takes 146-171% from a -6 Poochyena Quick Attack. Spikes Omastar is viable, but it's a gigantic cesspool of lost potential when Star could be Shell Smashing.

Second, people say the Spinners aren't as good as the spin-blockers. For starters, you can try designing your team not to be weak as fuck to Spikes. Maybe use Flygon over Krookodile or Cryogonal or Claydol as your Spinner. Maybe pack a little more recovery on your team so you can heal off the Spikes damage. Oh, and as someone said earlier:

Heysup said:
More to the point, if you let someone get more than one layer of Spikes up without severely crippling them somehow (with your own Spikes or setting up some mon) then you're an idiot.
Remember, what your opponent's doing at any given time is only half the battle. When your opponent is getting their first layer up, you should be switching to something that can take advantage of the turn when you're not being attacked. Remember, if your opponent is Spiking, he's not attacking. If he's not attacking, he's temporarily making himself more vulnerable in order to reap the benefits later with passive damage. If your opponent is Spiking with Qwilfish, why not bring in your Specs Kingdra to blast a Draco Meteor all over it? Why not switch in Hitmontop and try to get off a Spin?

A refutation to Heysup's claim was found last page. I believe Flareblitz posted this:

I addressed this line of reasoning when shrang or smurf or whoever it was brought it up, and I will do so again here - I have gotten full layers set up on me. I have set up full layers on players like reachzero and tof, among others. I don't know that you could say that any of us are idiots.
That is entirely feasible. However, I doubt that smurf is getting all three layers at once, and I doubt reach is letting you get all three layers at once, unless he's letting you Spike at the same time. Over time, hazards accumulate unless someone's Spinning. That's just a fact. Roserade, Froslass, and Deoxys are so good because they can come in on a lot of threats and get a layer of Spikes down. Notice the operative words here are "a layer". Very often in the matches I play I will have one layer for a few turns, see an opportunity, get down another, and then the third later. Just because your opponent can get all three layers doesn't mean you can't prepare for it and utilize the free turns to counter the opponent's strategy. Getting all three layers is not an automatic win condition and should not be treated as such.

Pokemon is a game of momentum, and by using Spikes you sacrifice virtually all of your momentum because you expect to get it back when it matters in the endgame. Your goal when noticing this is to retain the momentum your opponent yields to you when Spiking.

Now, onto Spinning.

People say that Spinning is too hard in this metagame. Really? Remember, your opponent has to play well to successfully block a Spin without making himself vulnerable on a different front. Let me ask: Why is Krookodile's usage almost three times higher among 1337 users than among all users? Because it kills Ghosts. Sure, the Spinners aren't great in UU (they're not bad by any means), but so are the Spin-blocker-counters (what a mouthful!). If your opponent reveals a Krookodile before the battle begins you take a huge risk every time you want to block Rapid Spin (unless your Ghost is sableye). If you expect your opponent to switch in a Mismagius why not have some fun with that Specs Kingdra that I keep mentioning? Try predicting a Ghost switch in! Just because you have your Spinner out doesn't mean you have to Spin. Bait the Ghost and switch in Krook! Or Kingdra! Or your Life Orb Moltres! Or even your Spiker! If your Spinner is Blastoise or Hitmontop you shouldn't even be legally allowed to complain about hazards because they both get Foresight!

Just by using Foresight you make your odds of successfully Spinning pretty much 100%. I know there are ways to still stop the Spin (by killing the spinner...) but that's no easy task.

I'm not going to lie to you and say Spikes aren't good. They are. I'm just saying that countering Spikers is not very difficult and every time your opponent Spikes, they leave themselves open to attack. So why not attack them?

I can't in all good honesty vote Ban on a Spikes-related problem without a really good argument. I don't think Spikes is breaking anything at the moment, and even though a dominant playstyle (spike-stacking offense) has emerged, it doesn't mean that the playstyle needs to be dealt with through bans.

I've loved reading the arguments so far so please continue this. At this point, I think we've hit a pretty non-broken metagame and I don't see a reason to modify it.
 
Second, people say the Spinners aren't as good as the spin-blockers. For starters, you can try designing your team not to be weak as fuck to Spikes. Maybe use Flygon over Krookodile or Cryogonal or Claydol as your Spinner.

If your Spinner is Blastoise or Hitmontop you shouldn't even be legally allowed to complain about hazards because they both get Foresight!

Just by using Foresight you make your odds of successfully Spinning pretty much 100%. I know there are ways to still stop the Spin (by killing the spinner...) but that's no easy task.
I agree with most of the stuff you said in your post except for these parts about rapid spinning. Rapid spinning with foresight is so incredibly difficult because now your left in bigger prediction state. The way blastoise and hitmontop are played as to keep coming in on spikes, take hits, spin, and take more hits and possibly use a turn to predict foresight. Your looking at only 1 chance to rapid spin. They're pretty bulky, but the duty they are being asked to do leaves them looking so frail and vunerable. It actually is a really easy task to do which is why the spinners arent as good. Even with decent offensive pressure +spikes/SR they are fighting a battle with their backs against the walls. This is the difficulty and why the one with the spikes most of the time have the upperhand


Both Claydol and Crygonal are extremely weak. Claydol, type wise with no form of recovery. Crygonal physically weak, despite having a 135 base SpDef, it is decievingly weak on that department as well. Ive tried my share of both and it has left me with nothing but disappointment. If I couldnt catch the ghost with a toxic on the switch then it was a waisted effort to even switch them in and a gained moment on their side
 
Sorry, this is delayed a bit.

This is a problem. I addressed this line of reasoning when shrang or smurf or whoever it was brought it up, and I will do so again here - I have gotten full layers set up on me. I have set up full layers on players like reachzero and tof, among others. I don't know that you could say that any of us are idiots.

There were games I've won and lost on Deoxys-D and Froslass speed ties. And in general, it's very easy for something like Deoxys-D to come in and set up spikes multiple times while beating any spinner down with taunt and toxic / seismic toss. Qwilfish functions similarly, I assume (haven't used it). The point is, I don't think anyone would be complaining about spikes if accelgor were trying to switch into attacks with its base 40 defense. The problem is more deoxys-d, with its base 180 defense, roserade with her base 125 special attack, froslass with her base 110 speed and ghost typing. These traits make their ability to set up spikes independent of player skill - the only way to reliable prevent them from getting multiple hazard layers on the field is by just outplaying your opponent (and if we're introducing that argument let's just say that I use froslass and regularly start matches 5-5 with two spike layers on the opponent's side and nothing on my side).
That's clearly not what I meant. What I meant was setting up Spikes without any punishment. If you sit there with your Milotic spamming Scald on their Froslass / D-D while they set up Spikes, you're an idiot. If you switch to Raikou or Rhyperior or Darmanitan (etc) while they set up Spikes, you are not an idiot; you are in a good situation. Darmanitan in vs (eg) Roserade with just 1 layer of Spikes up is bad news for the Spikes user. My specific point here is that Spikes aren't free like they were before in gen 4.

I'm not talking about Speed ties or bad matchups. Those happen in other ways too (with regards to things like weather or set up sweepers).
Flare Blitz said:
I don't feel like this really answered my question. I asked if you feel that darma / chandy / kingdra etc are broken. You mention that they are dominant forces by themselves - does that mean you recommend banning them?

I'm asking this because I have built teams with a whole bunch of good sweepers and all of them were consistently able to ignore their counters because of the existence of spikes (seriously, try RD special kingdra with spikes down). Obviously these sweepers are great outside of spikes support - swellow and moltres were pretty good without spikes too. The key, to me, is how easily they are able to bypass counters with support.
It is irrelevant (unless you're curious?) whether I recommend banning those Pokemon or not (to which the answer would be no). This is because you're suggesting that Spikes + those Pokemon are broken while (as I'm showing/arguing) Spikes is not a huge part of it, meaning that your problem is with the offensive Pokemon not Spikes. It has nothing to do with me.

Flare Blitz said:
My ultimate point is this: it's obvious that this metagame is not particularly healthy or fun. It's equally apparent that it is heavily centralized around offensive teams with spikes support. I run into about as many spikestack teams as I did hail teams last round. There has to be a reason for this.

My question for you is, do you think this is an okay metagame? Or that there needs to be intervention from the senate? And if so, what would you propose should be done?
I personally don't mind this metagame, but if there is senate intervention it needs to be sound. I'm not sure if I'm completely against banning Spikes set up Pokemon, but I don't really thing that's the problem in this metagame.

Then again, I've been making straight Spikestacking teams since Gen 4 came out. This is definitely a less favorable metagame for me than Froslass last gen.
 
I think the problem can be solved with a simple question. What do we want our metagame to be? Do we mind having offensive spikes teams dominating the tier or can we just be inventive and get around it? I'm sure if we all actually try, we can get around spikes rather than just mindlessly fighting fire with fire. Yes, some spikers are very difficult to counter but then we ban one or two. Banning a couple of popular choices won't kill the play-style outright. I honestly think all we need to do is run a poll and see how everyone feels about the current metagame. It's just a matter of a couple of bans imo.
 

alexwolf

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I was expecting this argument. SJcrew already somewhat addressed it a while back, but I will try to do so again.

There are a large number of differences between stealth rock and spikes. For one, stealth rock has such a wide distribution and so many effective users that if a pokemon can abuse the field effect, it is probably more efficient to ban the pokemon than ban the move. This is definitely not the case with spikes, which has very few effective users and a proportionally larger number of pokemon who can take advantage of the stacking effect. Which brings me to my next point - spikes stack, with itself and stealth rock. As passive damage starts mounting, more and more sweepers because prohibitively difficult to wall. Stealth rock by itself will only do a set, predictable amount of damage to each pokemon. You never know how many layers of spikes are going to be on the field, so something you put on your team to counter a certain pokemon could end up being beaten by it, opening up your entire team to a sweep. And finally, while stealth rock is far, far more centralizing, I never claimed centralization as an argument for wanting spikes gone (in fact, I specifically stated it wasn't).

tldr: The biggest reason to focus on spikes over stealth rock is the marginal benefit of spikes over stealth rock. (Marginal in the economics sense, not in the sense of "trivial").
You say that because SR has so many users,if a poke abuses this field effect it is more efficient to ban the pokes than the effect.
And i am asking you where do you base this?
In fact it is quite the opposite. If a field effect is so commonly used and provides overpowered support to many pokes then it is much more accurate to ban the field effect than banning every single abuser.
But this is not the case with Spikes. The success of spiking is connected with who uses the Spikes so much, that if we ban the best spikers, spike-stacking strategies are going to become much more difficult to use.

If you want to ban a move then first be sure that it is broken on everything, or at least at the majority of pokes that get them, and then propose the ban. For now the best we can do is ban Froslass/ Roserade/ Deoxys-D. And i say the best because i know that Smogon as a community won't take such a ridiculous action,banning a move just to nerf some offensive pokes.

If you are so annoyed by Darmanitan, Kingdra or whatever, then ban them ffs not Spikes. If you ban Spikes then this means that when Spikes are present, the majority of the metagame can become broken with their support. Is this true? Hell no...
 
Just wondering, why don't people use more Levitators or Flying types in this tier? I use a Clefable and she makes a pretty sturdy special wall. She doesn't care about Spikes and she actually prefers Toxic Spikes. Granted, the non-Hitmontop and Claydol spinners suck, but really, since everyone but me seems to be using Spikes, is it really that much of a problem or is it just part of UU like Stealth Rock was part of OU in Generation IV?
 
I agree. If this whole Spikes thing is truly a problem, it should be the most "problematic" spiker that gets banned, or the most "problematic" Pokemon that gets benefitted from the Spikes that gets banned.
 
I think we can all agree that Deo-D is pretty OP, and I'm on the fence about Rose and Lass personally, but I believe they have broken potential for spikestacking in general. However I think this hasty "ban the big three" is just that, hasty. I mean our most current meta has been here for what, like 2 weeks? I think we should take longer to adapt. Pokemon like escavelier could turn out to be hugely advantagous for there ability to switch in on all the spikers and threaten with either Sub or CB sets. Or perhaps we could just bite the bullet and run foresight spinners, or pursuiters for the ghosts, it's not like the enemy isn't spending several turns just setting up those hazards, what are you doing in the meantime?
 

DetroitLolcat

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the post above me said:
I think we can all agree that Deo-D is pretty OP
Since when can we agree on that? Deo-D is Rapid Spin bait, Taunt bait, cannot be both fast and really bulky at the same time, and has virtually no attacking option. Deoxys-D is a good Pokemon definitely, but it is not even close to OP. Deoxys-D and most Spinners also have ass synergy and get maimed by just about any Dark type in UU.

Deoxys-D is definitely the best Pokemon to Spike with, but it's also the easiest Pokemon to Rapid Spin on. It's also the easiest to play around because unlike Roserade and Froslass, Deoxys-D cannot fire Ice Beams or Leaf Storms and has to settle for Night Shade or Seismic Toss. Overall, I think it's hard to make the case for Deoxys being the best Spiker since it maintains so little offensive presence. Making the case for brokenness is even harder.
 
it can however lay both hazards, and what's to stop from switching to sableye, mismagius etc? I've used Deo-D extensively and it doesn't need direct damage to win battles for you, laying rocks and spikes whilst being nearly impossible to set up on due to a solid 90 base speed taunt, and recover, he doesn't even need to invest in bulk, just speed and HP to get the job done.
 
considering how deoxys-d has virtually no offensive presence, if your opponent is wasting 2-4 turns letting you set up hazards he's a complete moron.
 

Ace Emerald

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considering how deoxys-d has virtually no offensive presence, if your opponent is wasting 2-4 turns letting you set up hazards he's a complete moron.
Taunt, ok speed, and fantastic defenses beg to differ. You can't really set up on him well (faster mons can get one boost, but that isn't too frighting to deal with afterwards), and its very hard to take him down. Just my experience with him.

Unrelated Edit:
So I've been thinking, and everything everyone has said about using spikes turns to gain momentum is also true for rapid spinning. I've been using those turns of basically no damage with good switches and set ups. I'm not implying that this breaks spikes or spikers, just food for thought.
 
Ace emerald basically said what I was going to.

I believe that the spiker/spinner/spin blocker relationship is a wee bit skewed, but every strategy has its own ways to adapt. I think our problem in this particular situation lies in the fact that the spikers don't have to adapt, the spinners do.
 
Roserade needs to go. Much too versatile and even bulky on the special side. Can use Sleep Powder. Can set up Spikes or Toxic Spikes. STAB Leaf Storm from 125 base. Solid 95 base speed. Rest+Natural Cure. Usage is too high, also. Kills Blastoise and Claydol.
 
Usage is nothing, Scizor has higher usage in OU than Roserade has in UU and its not broken.

Sure, Roserade is versatile and is a bitch, but it's got disadvantages like not being able to run Leaf Storm with Spikes. Snorlax man-handles Roserade too, Restalk can either Body Slam Roserade on her bad Defense or Whirlwind her. Killing Blastoise and Claydol is nothing: Froslass shits all over Hitmontop and isn't broken. Leaf Storm also has a downside of halving Roserade's SpA, allowing something like SubCM Raikou to come in afterwards and wreck havoc.
 
I know it's RU technically but damn Sceptile is such a mother in battle. I just started laddering and I'm on the good side of 1000 now (I don't battle a ton), with many of my battles turning into Sceptile sweeps. One SD and acrogem unburden and the number of things that can stop you becomes countable on one hand.
 

kokoloko

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Usage is nothing, Scizor has higher usage in OU than Roserade has in UU and its not broken.

Sure, Roserade is versatile and is a bitch, but it's got disadvantages like not being able to run Leaf Storm with Spikes. Snorlax man-handles Roserade too, Restalk can either Body Slam Roserade on her bad Defense or Whirlwind her. Killing Blastoise and Claydol is nothing: Froslass shits all over Hitmontop and isn't broken. Leaf Storm also has a downside of halving Roserade's SpA, allowing something like SubCM Raikou to come in afterwards and wreck havoc.
I'm sorry, but you're severely underestimating how powerful Life Orb Roserade is...

Assuming Modest Roserade (which is what people should be running!) and 252/252+ Snorlax (which is not what people usually run), take a look at what happens:

Snorlax comes in on Stealth Rock and, for the sake of argument, lets say a single layer of Spikes, taking 25%. He takes a Sludge Bomb for 26.3% - 31.1% on that same turn, and then gets blasted by a Leaf Storm for another 40.8% - 48.3% before it can even move. Now, assuming Roserade rolls absolute minimum damage on both hits and that Snorlax is getting Leftovers recovery, he still needs to come in at a minimum of 92.2% to survive. Rolling maximum damage on both hits takes us up to a guaranteed KO at 104.4%.

That's just assuming Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes... which I'm sure we can all agree is pretty commonplace at the moment. Oh and before people go crying "but no one actually runs Modest!" here's the calcs with Timid:

24.2% - 28.6% (Sludge Bomb) + 37.2% - 44.1% (Leaf Storm) + 25.0% (SR + Spikes) - 6.25% (Leftovers) = 81.15% - 91.45%

That means you have to keep your Snorlax at virtually full HP the entire match if you wanna keep coming in on Roserade, and with Rest as your only form of recovery, good luck.

So in short, Snorlax, does not manhandle Roserade.
 
...

Oh I don't know... perhaps any other Spiker in the tier? Deoxys-D and Froslass come to mind, not to mention more niche things like Omastar, Scolipede and Accelgor.

Sorry if I sound like a prick, but what exactly was your question meant to accomplish?
That the Roserade in question was the spike set offense merely supplements it in that it would lessen the potential threats that would switch in and force more things out hence why it is a limitation for Roserade to not be able to run Leafstorm+Spikes, mainly for the calcs you mention as it would lessen switch ins. Roserade as an offense mon isn't really the suspect.
 

kokoloko

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I never said anything about Roserade being suspect, just sayin. I was merely correcting the guy that said Snorlax manhandles Roserade when it clearly doesn't.

Roserade should definitely be suspected imo, but not for its offensive capabilities alone.
 
I never said anything about Roserade being suspect, just sayin. I was merely correcting the guy that said Snorlax manhandles Roserade when it clearly doesn't.

Roserade should definitely be suspected imo, but not for its offensive capabilities alone.
Of course not. The problem with roserade is how easily it gets spikes up and makes it very difficult to get them off again without a poison type. I would say the offensive presence is just a bonus (albeit a rather hefty one). Roserade's spiking capabilities is what's dominating the tier. But your point on snorlax is a good one. It show that even a tough dedicated special wall like snorlax can't stand up to it. Roserade even got the boost when chansey got itself out of the tier.
 
If you want to see something that really manhandles roserade, crobat is your mon. takes 1/2 damage from sludge bomb, 1/4 from leaf storm and only fears sleep powder, with access to roost, taunt and brave bird, it dominates both deoxys and roserade, unfortunately it does lose to frosslass (if ice beam doesnt KO crobat it can essentially roost, then get hit by a weak ice beam and then U turn to a pursuit user, then its GG for frosslass), even so i'm surprised I havent seen more crobat leads, since people usually lead with there spiker. It even has U turn to grab early momentum, if they don't lead with there spiker, in fact with Jolteon and aerodactyl not seen anymore, crobat has just gotten better.
 
My problem with Crobat is that it's bait for a lot of heavy hitters and it also doesn't fully stop offensive Roserade.

I'd have a hard time banning Roserade as a Spiker but as a Spiker with the threat of Life Orb it makes a much more convincing case than Deoxys or Froslass.
 
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