np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

[Doom Dawg]

^Bronzong says hello with NO fire blast. Why not drop Ice Beam... You will not be able to outspeed Flygon anyway. And outside from this I see no purpose on Ice Beam.

Cofagrigus menaces A lot of threats from UU, every fighting type bar Scrafty and it is still able to knock his Moxie ability down. It is amazing and I would dare to say it is the best physical wall.

 

[Iridium]

yeah, I drop ice beam most of the time when I run 3 attacks. because, indeed, I can't outspeed flygon anyway. It's nice for gligar, but that's about it. Claydol isn't very common these days. Meanwhile fire blast OHKOs offensive shaymin, while I can tank a seed flare if at full health. And shaymin always gives me trouble when things like that don't happen.

 

[Mazz]

Meanwhile fire blast OHKOs offensive shaymin, while I can tank a seed flare if at full health. And shaymin always gives me trouble when things like that don't happen.

252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Shaymin: 114.91% - 135.09% Guaranteed OHKO

STAB Sludge Wave does that too, and doesn't miss. Fire Blast on Nidoking seems redundant really. If you're worried about Bronzong, run something to beat it, because in all reality, that's Fire Blast's only use. Ice Beam completes the BoltBeam coverage, which makes Nidoking a menace, generally running through the majority of UU single-handedly. Every other Steel-type doesn't want to take an Earth Power to the face, and Grass-types are easily disposed of with Sludge Wave or Ice Beam. Ice Beam's also handy for beating a Flygon locked into something like Stone Edge, or a move that really doesn't threaten Nidoking, as you can still hit it with that x4 super effective move. It removes Gligar better than its other moves, and has merit against Zapdos. That BoltBeam coverage is just too good to pass up really. Especially for a move designed to hit one specific Pokemon.

 

[Iridium]

but that requires me to run sludge wave, which takes another slot

 

[Mazz]

but that requires me to run sludge wave, which takes another slot

Poison / Ice /Ground coverage is basically unresisted coverage in UU, missing out on Bronzong, which Thunderbolt hits. I don't see the issue. Stealth Rock on Nidoking isn't that great of an idea. It's too frail to spend that one turn setting something up, and should be attacking directly.

 

[Nas]

Poison / Ice /Ground coverage is basically unresisted coverage in UU, missing out on Bronzong, which Thunderbolt hits. I don't see the issue. Stealth Rock on Nidoking isn't that great of an idea. It's too frail to spend that one turn setting something up, and should be attacking directly.

81/77/75 defenses is not frail by any means, and Nidoking will get plenty of opportunities to set up SR by the amount of switches it forces. If you're running 3 attack Nidoking you should be running Earth Power / Fire Blast / Ice Beam. Sludge Wave's only use is neutral coverage on bulky psychics and Rotom-H, but Uxie and Cresselia have very low usage in UU and Rotom-H is SR weak/2HKOed by Fire Blast after SR. And honestly, hitting Bronzong is a big deal, OHKOing it and preventing SR from going up on my field creates a huge advantage and has netted me tons of wins.

 

[alexwolf]

^If frail mons couldn't set up then you wouldn't see SR on Azelf. If a poke forces a lot of switches, and is not desperately in need of moveslots, it can set-up SR, simple as that.

 

[destinyunknown]

It may be fragile but it can force a lot of switches thanks to its power and resistances (think of stuff like Gligar or Mienshao) so it gets more opportunities to set up SR that it's defensive stats can tell. In any case, it seems that Nidoqueen is by far a better Stealth Rock settler because it's still very powerful due to Sheer Force but it can actually tank some hits.


bs ninja'd

 

[Bughouse]

I just built a team utilizing Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Stealth Rock Nidoking. While certainly not overwhelming, it is a somewhat reliable user of Stealth Rock. The team was performing well and I did get SR up most matches, but many times sacrificing enough of Nidoking's health that it became impossible to safely switch it in later. It certainly could be used on an offensive team to get hazards down without losing momentum, though I wonder what advantage it really provides over using Azelf's Stealth Rock, which is faster and therefore more reliable, or Rhyperior's Stealth Rock, which is guaranteed if it comes in on certain pokemon. All in all, I'd recommend sticking to 4 attacks on Nidoking to just slaughter everything. And personally, I find Thunderbolt to be the best 4th option, with Fire and Fighting moves so easy to add to the team elsewhere, though of course you could run a Raikou/Shaymin/etc and leave out Thunderbolt.

I think that last slot truly should be a 2 slasher between Fire Blast and Thunderbolt for Bronzong or Bulky Waters, with Focus Blast listed as a surprise OO, since Nidoking should not need to run Focus Blast to defeat Snorlax and Umbreon in a tier with too many fighting types to count.

 

[ss234]

I just built a team utilizing Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Stealth Rock Nidoking. While certainly not overwhelming, it is a somewhat reliable user of Stealth Rock. The team was performing well and I did get SR up most matches, but many times sacrificing enough of Nidoking's health that it became impossible to safely switch it in later. It certainly could be used on an offensive team to get hazards down without losing momentum, though I wonder what advantage it really provides over using Azelf's Stealth Rock, which is faster and therefore more reliable, or Rhyperior's Stealth Rock, which is guaranteed if it comes in on certain pokemon. All in all, I'd recommend sticking to 4 attacks on Nidoking to just slaughter everything. And personally, I find Thunderbolt to be the best 4th option, with Fire and Fighting moves so easy to add to the team elsewhere, though of course you could run a Raikou/Shaymin/etc and leave out Thunderbolt.

I think that last slot truly should be a 2 slasher between Fire Blast and Thunderbolt for Bronzong or Bulky Waters, with Focus Blast listed as a surprise OO, since Nidoking should not need to run Focus Blast to defeat Snorlax and Umbreon in a tier with too many fighting types to count.

I found the same thing about SR on Nidoking i.e. he dies straight afterwards. However, I wouldn't say that Focus Blast is OO material, since it destroys pretty much every special wall, such as Snorlax, Umbreon and Porygon2.

 

[reachzero]

I would like to note that one of the major reasons I use Fire Blast, totally aside from Bronzong, is that not being able to OHKO Heracross is a Very Bad Thing.

 

[SJCrew]

I think that last slot truly should be a 2 slasher between Fire Blast and Thunderbolt for Bronzong or Bulky Waters, with Focus Blast listed as a surprise OO, since Nidoking should not need to run Focus Blast to defeat Snorlax and Umbreon in a tier with too many fighting types to count.

Fighting-types almost never want to switch directly in on Snorlax. He just hits too hard and will paralyze you with Body Slam for your troubles.

The point of having a move that hits its own would-be counters is keeping the momentum in Nidoking's favor. After he kills Snorlax, he can pretty much do what he wants. Plus, it's harder to beat walls when you don't lure them and defeat them with a Pokemon they're meant to check, since they can easily switch out of their own checks and recover throughout the match to stay alive.

Focus Blast 2HKOs Bronzong too, though I don't think I can ever lend credence to that theory with experience, having missed absolutely every time I wanted to use it on Bronzong.

 

[ss234]

Never new Focus Blast 2HKO's Bronzong, but I'd still use it anyway-the ability to annihalate Snorlax is just too good frankly.

Now, Honchkrow. I must admit, I was quite underwhelmed by him at first, but he has definitely pulled his weight in a lot of matches. But what is the optimal set? I'm running Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, Superpower, Substitute with 252spe and 252att and an Adamant nature, but is there a better option for that last moveslot? I just find Substitute to be realy unnecessary, but what do you guys think?

 

[SJCrew]

It actually doesn't. 43.2% - 50.9%

I remember the calc being much higher than that.

Substitute on Honchkrow is suboptimal. Replace it with Roost. You will rarely use it, but in the situations that present themselves to you, the most devilish grin will creep up on your face and you'll know why.

 

[ss234]

Thanks SJ Crew, but it's a shame that Snorlax isn't 2HKO'd by Nidoking. Still, SR and Spikes can be used to 2HKO him.

 

[SJCrew]

46.4% - 54.6%

You sure you did your calcs right? I'm using the stupid standard spread onsite, so if you were assuming 252/252+ then you might want to recheck that.

EDIT: OH, you thought I meant Snorlax in my earlier post. I was talking about Bronzong not being 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Snorlax is definitely 2HKOed. Bronzong is a minor roadblock anyway, since anything you put in the last slot is gonna hit him. Plus, I think people are a bit used to getting roasted by Fire Blast to have him switch into Nidoking so confidently.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I am pretty sure we all know Nidoking is pretty great right now being able to check/counter any Fighting Pokemon basically, especially Heracross and Mienshao which are definitely two of the bigger Fighting threats. The right move set for it will only cover an extra Pokemon or two which is not terribly significant.

So can I ask something, what goes on in your mind when you see a Kingdra? Kingdra is definitely a top tiered threat being fairly unpredictable and bulky and strong. I think Dragon Dance Kingdra is a little less dangerous than Rain versions of Kingdra because it lacks the Speed to beat common Scarfers except Chandelure. It is can basically take out anything in the tier in two hits though with Waterfall and Outrage after a boost because nothing has good enough physical defense not even the bulky waters after a little residual damage. Bronzong cannot do much back to you which is partly why Kingdra seems so awesome, it is really hard to OHKO Kingdra while mildly hard not to get OHKOd back.

Despite the same type coverage Rain Kingdra has it is really a whole other, scarier beast. A single turn and not even fast Choice Scarf users, like Mienshao, cannot outspeed a Kingdra with sufficient EVs. I actually use Hydro Pump and Surf on Rain Dance Kingdra with Draco Meteor because 80% accuracy is shabby after set up and a 50% rain boosted Hydro Pump is as strong as a neutral Dragon Pulse I think. Basically if your opponent has no Water resists or Snorlax or Umbreon they are doomed from what I see. Even Bulk Up Scrafty takes 90%+ from Hydro Pump from experience. Kingdra is counterable but besides those counters, who must always by at 50% or higher health basically, absolutely nothing other than a miss seems to stop Kingdra.

Am I missing something that absolutely cripples Kingdra, does it have some type of weakness I can abuse because I have lots of trouble with Kingdra.

 

[Espo]

I am pretty sure we all know Nidoking is pretty great right now being able to check/counter any Fighting Pokemon basically, especially Heracross and Mienshao which are definitely two of the bigger Fighting threats. The right move set for it will only cover an extra Pokemon or two which is not terribly significant.

So can I ask something, what goes on in your mind when you see a Kingdra? Kingdra is definitely a top tiered threat being fairly unpredictable and bulky and strong. I think Dragon Dance Kingdra is a little less dangerous than Rain versions of Kingdra because it lacks the Speed to beat common Scarfers except Chandelure. It is can basically take out anything in the tier in two hits though with Waterfall and Outrage after a boost because nothing has good enough physical defense not even the bulky waters after a little residual damage. Bronzong cannot do much back to you which is partly why Kingdra seems so awesome, it is really hard to OHKO Kingdra while mildly hard not to get OHKOd back.

Despite the same type coverage Rain Kingdra has it is really a whole other, scarier beast. A single turn and not even fast Choice Scarf users, like Mienshao, cannot outspeed a Kingdra with sufficient EVs. I actually use Hydro Pump and Surf on Rain Dance Kingdra with Draco Meteor because 80% accuracy is shabby after set up and a 50% rain boosted Hydro Pump is as strong as a neutral Dragon Pulse I think. Basically if your opponent has no Water resists or Snorlax or Umbreon they are doomed from what I see. Even Bulk Up Scrafty takes 90%+ from Hydro Pump from experience. Kingdra is counterable but besides those counters, who must always by at 50% or higher health basically, absolutely nothing other than a miss seems to stop Kingdra.

Am I missing something that absolutely cripples Kingdra, does it have some type of weakness I can abuse because I have lots of trouble with Kingdra.

What goes through my mind when I see Kingdra is: Slowking. When I used to run Milotic instead what went through my mind was: I hope it lacks sub.

 

[Nas]

Empoleon has respectable bulk and resists both of Kingdra's stabs, however it can't do much back except Roar is out or hit it with a weak Ice Beam. The best way to deal with Kingdra is to first find out which set it's running, and then respond appropriately. Rain Dance Kingdra is beaten by Snorlax and Umbreon, not to mention it lacks Rest so you can cripple it with a Thunder Wave or Toxic to cut short its sweep. DD Kingdra is a bit harder to directly counter, but it isn't very strong even at +1, and most scarfers are capable of revenge killing it. Luring it into an Outrage isn't very hard either, and then it's a simple matter of revenge killing it with a scarfer or steel type.

 

[ss234]

With Kingdra, I just try to hit it hard with whatever mon I have. Also, don't let it set-up unless you have a Ditto. Kingdra is very powerful yes, but by hitting it hard where it hurts you should be able to defeat it. I suspect that CSpecs Empoleon would make a great counter, since that can actually hit it hard, and still resists it's STAB's.

 

[kokoloko]

Empoleon isn't a counter by any means. It's an okay check, but nowhere near a counter:

Timid Specs Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs 252/0 Empoleon: 48.9% - 58.1%

Even Hydro Pump is doing 31.5% - 37.1% while Specs Ice Beam is a 2HKO in return, and since Kingdra is faster it wins out in the end even without predicting. Dragon Dance sets wear defensive Empoleon down a lot faster than it can handle as well, so it's even pretty fail against that.

The fact of the matter is Kingdra has no hard counters in UU (hell, even in OU, I can only think of two). It has a few checks, but no hard counters--that's why it's so hard to play around it when it first comes out.

 

[SJCrew]

Empoleon is a fantastic check. As long as Empoleon is alive, Kingdra can't sweep right away, and HP Electric is the only chance it gets to do any real damage. Bulky offensive Empoleon can 3HKO all Kingdra with Ice Beam while it can't do the same with Outrage. That or it can just Roar or Protect stall with Leftovers recovery + Toxic damage. It's really hard for a Kingdra to do anything to healthy Empoleon, and each time it's forced out, it takes hazards damage to make the next encounter even easier.

On another subejct, the current Empoleon analysis is way overdue for an update. Some of the sets we're talking about are being used but don't exist onsite yet. I've seen way more bulky offensive Empoleon than strictly defensive Empoleon because they're frankly more useful.

@ hilarious' query: Offense is much better at dealing with Kingdra than defense. Bisharp and Honchkrow check him pretty badly, and so does Scarf Heracross and Scarf Flygon. He actually needs a lot of setup before he can touch certain teams. I personally favor Sub DD Kingdra since it allows him to do just that.

 

[kokoloko]

From the many times I've used Kingdra I've found that Empoleon isn't all that hard to break with it. Granted, I've whored the Specs set more than anything else, but still.

As for Empoleon getting an update, it's happening as we speak.

 

[alexwolf]

kokoloko i think that Kingdra has one hard counter: Slowking. It counters any special set, while phazing any physical, and +0 Outrage can't 2hko, iirc, but even if it can, just bring in your physical wall the next turn, and act accordingly. So as long as Slowking is alive, Kingdra ain't doing anything.

 

[kokoloko]

Slowking's probably the best check because of the Regenerator, but two things can go wrong:

1. Slowking can take ~140% over two hits while only switching out for Regenerator once. This isn't hard to do if you play aggressively enough with your Kingdra (if it's SpD Slowking you'll need DD Kingdra and if its Def Slowking you'll need Specs / LO with Meteor, but it's not like you can assume a set with Kingdra).

2. Kingdra can invest enough in bulk to make it so Slowking's Dragon Tail doesn't break its Substitute in one hit and proceed to Dragon Dance up (you need max HP if Slowking is Relaxed / Sassy as opposed to -Atk, but it's not like using ~160 HP in unheard of, so that still gives your Sub a good chance to not break).