np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[Texas Cloverleaf]

sleeping doesn't costs PP so you get 3 turns for one rest PP, calm mind also has 48 pp if i am right and sleep talk and scald have about the same pp as the filler moves.

The thing about that is that to Rest you have to have taken damage. There's nothing stopping Milotic from spamming Haze+(filler in non attacking move i.e. Refresh) for 60+ turns. once Calm Mind is gone Suicune is useless anyway so if it comes to it you can always bring in something else at that point if you dont want Milotic to take the stall all the way.

 

[Arcanite]

Kyurem is too good, I've been using it on a non-hail team, and it is still too good. The Main problem is 95 Base speed is not slow in UU. 105/90/90 is very good defence. And 130/130 attacking stats?!?!?!? Mixed Kyurem are almost impossible to take down, unless you have chansey, which is also too good imo.

 

[Mishra]

Evidence for Chansey and Heracross?

Chansey walls half the metagame by herself. I don't have all the calcs, but she can survive not only on her special side, but also her physical side with evolite and hp is incredibly insane. The lack of sand in this meta also makes the lack of leftovers that her older sister uses almost irrelevent. Some thing I do have memorized:

Timid Azelf's +2 Psyshock is a 3HKO on 252/252 Bold Chansey.
Jolly Arcanine's Life Orbed Close Combat is a 2HKO.

I am not even going to go into special SE hits since I think the funniest one is that Modest Kyugem's Focus Blast is a 3-4HKO, negating Sp.d drops.

I realize she is the best special wall in the game, and if it were just that, I am sure she would be annoying, but fine. Her amazing abilitiy to take strong physical hits, and SE hits on her FIVE BASE DEFENSE, strikes me as something is wrong. And good, she can be taunted, that doesn't mean she isn't an issue.

Heracross, I strongly disagree with. For starters, heracross is one of the few pokes who can counter Chansey outright. I believe CC is an OHKO from heracross, as well as Guts allowing heracross to come in on her toxic. Scarf is the most common set, and there are plenty of pokes who resist either stab and can come in on it.

The one thing I would disagree with is if KYugem stays in the meta as chansey is one of the few pokes who can take those stabbed special attacks. But I expect both Vicini, and Kyugem to be out of here. I would like chansey out too, but I would be satisfied with just those two...

Also, reason why there would be any reason to ban both Vulpix and Victini, when Victini is not broken without Vulpix? Unless you just mean one of the two should be considered, but unless there's evidence of a Drought abuser other than Victini being problematic, there's little reason to look any further.

Vicini still hits like a house without the sun. It is just that the sun puts it over the top, by a lot...

 

[Dr. Alex]

i just cant wait till NU where there will be no weather lol...

hopefully hippopatas will be uu

 

[Boarbaque]

Canidates for Bans/Limitations:
- Drought/Vulpix
- Victini (if Drought/Vulpix is not banned or limited)
- Chansey (because of eviolite)
- Kyurem (BST over 600 and Hail teams)

Candidates IMO for bans would be:

Chansey
Victini
Kyurem
Vulpix
Heracross

Vulpix is only because of drought I assume. I hope people realize that the Pokemon Online server has a Clear Skies tier that people can put on Smogon servers sometime in the near future. (Clear Skies tiers ban all weather abilities and moves)

Chansey is really the only one on this list I agree with besides Kyurem. With eviolite it is WAY too bulky for the UU metagame. I honestly think that Chansey should be moved to BL so that it would only be allowed to be a nuisance in OU. If Chansey was OU I have a feeling Blissey would be pushed down to UU. Darn Eviolite.

Victini is an absolute monster in Trick Room teams and in the sun, but if Drought is banned or at least limited I could see Victini usage going WAY down.

Kyurem is a pokemon I think should and shouldn't be banned from UU. On one hand in Hail it is a complete monster because of 100% accurate STAB Blizzards. On the other hand, its slower than Cobalion (both his STABs are SE to Kyurem) and he doesn't have any moves to deal with Escavalier.

Heracross in my opinion is too slow for OU and can actually be defeated by most fire types. Show me some calcs if you disagree. I honsetly don't think he is too great and I also don't think he is too much of a threat.

 

[LafondaOnFire]

i just cant wait till NU where there will be no weather lol...

hopefully hippopatas will be uu

With Abomasnow in UU, I expect to see Snover in NU if Abomasnow remains in UU... hail may have fewer abusers than sand, rain, or sun, but it's still extremely powerful when played right. While it appears that Kyurem won't drop below UU anytime soon, I can't quite say what's in store for Walrein, Froslass, Glaceon, and numerous other hail abusers.

 

[capefeather]

Chansey walls half the metagame by herself.

I really wish people would quit with this lazy, empty claim that "Chansey/Blissey walls half the metagame". I bet people would still be saying this if the metagame consisted entirely of physical attackers.

I hope people realize that the Pokemon Online server has a Clear Skies tier that people can put on Smogon servers sometime in the near future.

Hell no. Smogon will choose one or the other. Besides, sun is "clear skies" in the Japanese version <.<

 

[Gerard]

If RU/LU (a tier below UU) is placed there, then there would be a perma-weather-less NU, still there is always sunny day and friends

PS: for all of you saying something is broken, calcs would be very much apreciated

 

[Conflict]

There are several options to remove Chansey the people who post here are just unable to abuse that kind of stuff.
I posted some viable things to neuter Chansey a few pages before, look it up!

Thankfully these people wont get voting rights.

 

[Boarbaque]

Chansey does wall half the metagame as pointed out by Mishra:

Chansey walls half the metagame by herself. I don't have all the calcs, but she can survive not only on her special side, but also her physical side with evolite and hp is incredibly insane. The lack of sand in this meta also makes the lack of leftovers that her older sister uses almost irrelevent. Some thing I do have memorized:

Timid Azelf's +2 Psyshock is a 3HKO on 252/252 Bold Chansey.
Jolly Arcanine's Life Orbed Close Combat is a 2HKO.

So just get rid of Eviolite and Chansey isn't a problem.

 

[Dr. Alex]

If anything should be banned it should be victini.

In the sun its just too much for anything to handle

 

[capefeather]

Chansey does wall half the metagame as pointed out by Mishra:

How does what you quoted demonstrate the claim? It gave two calcs...

 

[sax king]

So I've heard a lot of people complain about the main three suspects (Vulpix, Victini, Kyurem), but does anyone have any reasons why they shouldn't be banned?

I mean a lot of people have just stated complaints, but if we can't produce arguments saying why they shouldn't be banned, then what are we waiting for?

 

[Dr. Alex]

Mainly its because people dont like quick bans...

Its only been like a week, so everything is chaotic and needs time to settle. Remember back a few months ago when everyone though Excadrill and Reuniclus shouldve been banned? now they arent considered broken much anymore. Things have settled

 

[MMF]

So I've heard a lot of people complain about the main three suspects (Vulpix, Victini, Kyurem), but does anyone have any reasons why they shouldn't be banned?

I mean a lot of people have just stated complaints, but if we can't produce arguments saying why they shouldn't be banned, then what are we waiting for?

This. The only thing I can see is a SR weakness but even that can be bypassed by Rapid Spinners.

 

[Thorhammer]

Chansey does wall half the metagame as pointed out by Mishra:



So just get rid of Eviolite and Chansey isn't a problem.

In addition to that not being half the metagame and not conclusive proof that Chansey should be banned, even if it was, banning Eviolite would be foolish. Eviolite increases the viability of many Pokemon in UU and in lower tiers; there is no sense in banning it for the sake of one Pokemon.

So I've heard a lot of people complain about the main three suspects (Vulpix, Victini, Kyurem), but does anyone have any reasons why they shouldn't be banned?

I mean a lot of people have just stated complaints, but if we can't produce arguments saying why they shouldn't be banned, then what are we waiting for?

I've seen plenty of arguments about why they aren't broken, and from there it of course logically follows that they should not be banned for the case of increasing the diversity of the metagame, and for the fact that the most key part of Smogon's policy is to not ban anything unless it is broken or uncompetitive.

And certainly, as Dr. Alex pointed out, no matter what, there isn't the slightest sense in banning them now, in the middle of a suspect test. Regarding his examples of Excadrill and Reuniclus, people used to be just as adamant that they would need to go, and yet look where we wound up. That could just as easily happen to any of these Pokemon, for reasons we may not even know of yet.

 

[Gerard]

i see the actual suspects (kyurem and Victini, vulpix will come later) like deoxys-a more than Reuiniclus, they are enormous powerhouses that can't be killed unless special condition (strong SE attacker that can deal with a likely swich-in/survive a 2HKO, priority (sucker punch//match punch) from a poke that can ressist the first v-create/draco meteor/blizzard, trapping (pursuit, shadow tag, dugtrio), sacrifice...) most have ways around it and none are reliable, that makes them really treathening by themselves, and even if they are week to SR, rapid spin/magic coatmagic mirror/taunt, there are way more ways to deal with SR than to preserve them, and if you prepare yourslef you're likely to not have them

 

[Mishra]

There are several options to remove Chansey the people who post here are just unable to abuse that kind of stuff.
I posted some viable things to neuter Chansey a few pages before, look it up!

Thankfully these people wont get voting rights.

You are quite the are quite the arrogant little guy, aren't you?

There are plenty of way to remove moody too. Taunt, haze, clear smog, 100% accurate moves, phasing, A faster poke, bad luck on part of the opponent, ect.

That didn't make Moody any less banworthy. Lets look at Blazeken:

Priority, Slobro, Suicune, Excadril in the sand, switching a ghost in on HJK, Sturdy Steelix, Flashfire Chandelure, lack of healing moves, ect.

Notice how most of the pokes and things here are not hard counters. Slobro gets mauled by the special version, Chandelure, loses to shadow claw, and all the other pokes cannot switch into blaze without taking serious damage or dying.

Chansey, on the other hand is a wall, and what makes banworthy is going to be much diffrent then what would make a moody, Blazeken, or even something like Brightpoweder banworthy.

You claim you realize chansey is a wall, and unlike other banned pokes, will typically not take out 2-3 or even a full team by herself. What makes chansey ridiculous is how much she can cripple your team, before she goes down. The amount of damage she can do is amazing, and some of its counters including Cobalion, and Scarf Heracross do not like taking T-waves.

@Capefeather: Just to name some of the top UU usages:

Espeon, Slowbro, Jolteon, Zapdos, Zorark, togekiss, Slowbro, Celebi, Quagsire, the Nidos, Milotic, Some vairants of Suicune, Empoleon, Scarfed Abomasnow, Electross, Shayim (pending no Sp.d drops), I could keep going.

Out of all those, there are still more. Any vesion of speical Kyugem gets walled, although the rare physical version could be problematic.

Between T-Wave and Toxic, only the Nido family and Steelix can overcome both, and the Nidos are completely walled by Chansey.

Even some physical threats, such as donphan or crobat can't take down a chansey in 2 hits, and brave birding chansey hurts like something else, even with roost.

 

[Thorhammer]

i see the actual suspects (kyurem and Victini, vulpix will come later) like deoxys-a more than Reuiniclus, they are enormous powerhouses that can't be killed unless special condition (strong SE attacker that can deal with a likely swich-in/survive a 2HKO, priority (sucker punch//match punch) from a poke that can ressist the first v-create/draco meteor/blizzard, trapping (pursuit, shadow tag, dugtrio), sacrifice...) most have ways around it and none are reliable, that makes them really treathening by themselves, and even if they are week to SR, rapid spin/magic coatmagic mirror/taunt, there are way more ways to deal with SR than to preserve them, and if you prepare yourslef you're likely to not have them

Neither Kyurem nor Victini has the Speed to be like Deoxys-A. They sound much more similar to Excadrill based on the way you're describing them now, if anything. And yet Excadrill was found to be reasonable to deal with, and the same very well may be true for Kyurem and Victini.

Kyurem and Victini also don't have the Speed to be like Excadrill, but that just makes them more plausible to not be broken. They have their own advantages, which are magnified by the tier difference, but none of those advantages are clear-cut enough to make it any worse of an example. A bit more bulk or power won't necessarily cause much of a change in how a Pokemon is dealt with, but a considerable amount of Speed will.

 

[Conflict]

bla bla bla

When i read stuff like this i wish we could reintroduce the Council.

I dont know how you dont get my points but i will once again properly answer.

First of you have to free yourself of the mindset you have right now. You dont have to ohko or outright kill Chansey. You should abuse its low offensive powers i.e. use it as set up or for free heals for something. I will admit that Chansey is able to wall quite a bit of the tier but in the same sense she cant really do much back to a whole bunch of things. Take for example a Pokemon with Rest-Sleeptalk and possibly a Set-Up Move. TRhis thing will beat Chansey (see: Suicune) in the long run as will some other things like Taunt.

But wait i already explained this earlier, so why should i repeat myself? Here read again:

Ok, then let me tell you some super-secret strategies to beat Chansey:

Taunt+Recovery
101Subs with Lefties (Suicune, Celebi, Mew, etc.)
Sub or Taunt + Ghosttype
some crazy strong attacker who 2hkos or ohkos threatening Chansey
Trick
Knock off
NP+Psyshock
(T-)Spikes with phazing
some physical Sweeper who doesnt mind Toxic that much and withstands 1-2 Stoss with SD
Sweepers with things like ChestoRest
Block+ Setupmove or Toxic
Leech Seed
Magic Guard + Recovery + Setupmove or strong Move with much PP

I could think of more but maybe you got the idea by now? There are plenty of ways around Chansey you just have to use them.

@moody: Moody could boost your evasion and thus moves like Taunt/Haze had a chance to miss and possibly loose you your game despite having a solid counter.

@Blaziken: Was strong but idk if it was really broken. I never had much problems with it - it was just really annoying too face. Im more the guy that is against too much bans and i enjoy a metagame with the least amount of needed bans (Gen 4 with Latias/Salamence, Gen 3 with Celebi, Gen 2 with Snorlax, Gen 1 with Tauros -> all enjoyable metagames despite some centralization).

You are quite the are quite the arrogant little guy, aren't you?

Yup. I just think that i have more insight in some things than newer people without that much experience or success. That is all.

 

[PttP]

you clearly dont have a brain if you think success or years of experience matter in a new generation and the person youre arguing with has reasonable arguments and the only thing he lacks is a old joining year

 

[Virizion]

you clearly dont have a brain if you think success or years of experience matter in a new generation and the person youre arguing with has reasonable arguments and the only thing he lacks is a old joining year

Someone that has joined in 2005 (Or in your case, 2009) could have less knowledge than someone that has joined in 2011. A person's join date, post count, etc. doesn't reflect their knowledge of the metagame (and vice-versa).

 

[PttP]

no shit dumbass that was the point

 

[Virizion]

no shit dumbass that was the point

You brought up join-date as if it mattered. And tone down the unnecessary language; if you even know any words besides those.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

How does Chansey beat Espeon o_O

Or even Shaymin...