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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Haze Murkrow outspeeds any smashpasser and removes their boosts though...
Yeah, but it completely sucks otherwise...
If you guys want to solve the problem with Baton Pass chains, ban Espeon. If you guys want to solve the problem with SmashPass, ban the Huntail and Gorebyss. "Complex" bans aren't necessary, and much less when the problem is 2/3 pokemon.
If you guys want to solve the problem with Baton Pass chains, ban Espeon. If you guys want to solve the problem with SmashPass, ban the Huntail and Gorebyss. "Complex" bans aren't necessary, and much less when the problem is 2/3 pokemon.
Right now the problem with Smashpass is Espeon. Why don't we all agree to ban Espeon before we start banning other mons like Huntail and Gorebyss and Smeargle. If it's still broken without Espeon, then there's always next suspect testing round. But let's not get hasty and ban Baton Pass, Shell Smash, and the mons too.
Maybe it's just me, (and my little experience with smash pass in UU) But I used a UU team of smashpassers (excluding deo-s who's role can be easily fulfilled by something like Uxie), I gained like 200 points on the OU ladder, and was undefeated for about 15 games. Now I'm seeing the UU metagame, the only thing that can beat it is Haze Milotic and Haze Murkrow. I'm pretty sure Haze Milotic is fairly uncommon (Correct me if I'm wrong), and Murkrow has much better things to be doing. (Quick stalling, Perish Trapping) Murkrow is also very uncommon. So there are some counters, it's just you wouldn't put either of these on a hyper offense team. You most likely wouldn't put Murkrow on any team at all. I don't know, maybe this is good for the metagame. I think it's adaptable. If these guys counter it then, so be it. We put Gliscor/Skarmory/Bronzong on most of our teams in OU, so we can beat Excadrill. Maybe we should apply this rule. "If there's a counter, use it." If baton pass is hard to beat, but there are some counters to it, maybe we need to suck it up and play some counters.
Oh yeah, and first post of doom.
Oh yeah, and first post of doom.
Agreeing with this. But also, the two best smash pass Pokemon (in my opinion) have Thunderbolt and Wild Charge. (Vire and Nidoking)
This is just my opinion, but wouldn't that make Milotic a little bit of a shaky counter as well?
He's annoying (read: annoying as hell), but mostly if you're unprepared. Sigilyph is easier to phaze than the smashpassing thats being discussed. On top of that, it's retardedly predictable, I haven't seen a set outside of cosmic power/stored power/psycho shift/roost.
Seriously. Any pokemon with taunt/roar can handle them BEFORE they do anything. I love seeing, lets say Swampert vs. Gorebyss or something. smash lol roar
Then the opponent has to struggle to get into sweeping position again. If this occurs mid to late game, then they basically lose if you have hazards/anything alive.
Question
Who would miss Gorebyss and Huntail if gone?, does anyone uses them outside of SmashPass?, yeah, they where good as Rain Sweepers last gen, but now with Kingdra, SS Omastar, and many other things that can use it they've lost their niche, they are not bulky waters nor extremely good sweepers so why do we need to keep them around nerfing the only thing they are good at? since at the end they won't even be used outside of it
I'm not adressing Smeargle here since he at least can spore and put most hazzards around, but even he is not irreplaceable, and if his best set is broken, then the whole pokemon is broken (Blaziken and Garchomp prove us that already), as a Bottom Passer, smeargle at least can pass ingrain, but with Espeon around that's not even needed anymore
That's why I thing if SmashPass is voted broken, ban the only three pokes that can use that combination, it's not like we ar gonna miss them a lot nor that the diversity of the tier is gonna be a nerfed a lot
PS: I agree that Espeon is pushing BP chains over the edge, but SmashPass was around before there where female evees in DW, which means it was though broken before of it, so if Espeon is gone they will probably be a lot more manageable, but probably still a problem ( still, i mught be wrong), also Murcrow is RU, and Haze Milotic is hard to find, which means that they are very rare outside of checking BP teams
Who would miss Gorebyss and Huntail if gone?, does anyone uses them outside of SmashPass?, yeah, they where good as Rain Sweepers last gen, but now with Kingdra, SS Omastar, and many other things that can use it they've lost their niche, they are not bulky waters nor extremely good sweepers so why do we need to keep them around nerfing the only thing they are good at? since at the end they won't even be used outside of it
I'm not adressing Smeargle here since he at least can spore and put most hazzards around, but even he is not irreplaceable, and if his best set is broken, then the whole pokemon is broken (Blaziken and Garchomp prove us that already), as a Bottom Passer, smeargle at least can pass ingrain, but with Espeon around that's not even needed anymore
That's why I thing if SmashPass is voted broken, ban the only three pokes that can use that combination, it's not like we ar gonna miss them a lot nor that the diversity of the tier is gonna be a nerfed a lot
PS: I agree that Espeon is pushing BP chains over the edge, but SmashPass was around before there where female evees in DW, which means it was though broken before of it, so if Espeon is gone they will probably be a lot more manageable, but probably still a problem ( still, i mught be wrong), also Murcrow is RU, and Haze Milotic is hard to find, which means that they are very rare outside of checking BP teams
i agree
I might just vote espeon gone, because it can support BP chains and being the anti-counter for their common counters(roar/taunt)...without espeon BP teams are just like they were in Gen. 4 with a few more tools but doesnt make them any more broken...
Smashpass is not more/less difficult to handle than regular Baton Pass teams it's just different but it requires less use of espeon though(even though espeon is one of the best smash pass recievers too)...mainly i abuse smeargle (before gorebysss and huntail) to put my opponent in a checkmate position with smashpassing...But a round without espeon sounds more reasonable than banning Baton Pass or/and Smashpassing
Gerard said:
Just because "we won't miss" these Pokemon doesn't mean they are the culprits that make Shell Smash the powerhouse that it is (again, I still don't think it's broken). I actually think it's stupid to even consider banning something because people don't use them often....that really doesn't even make sense. There is one reason to ban something and one reason only: that "thing" is broken.
I think the reason for that is that it's a tad slow. Scarfraptor outspeeds it if it's running Jolly. Chansey also just T-waves it, making it far less fearsome. Not that many of either of the two run those specific things, though, as far as I know.
EDIT: Thank God the deadline is extended!
EDIT: Thank God the deadline is extended!
Obviously gonna push the deadline back a day, since the server's been down all day.
So tomorrow at 11:59pm est then!
If you're qualified to vote and the server goes back up tonight, take a screenshot in case you're worried about decay.
So tomorrow at 11:59pm est then!
If you're qualified to vote and the server goes back up tonight, take a screenshot in case you're worried about decay.
So I'm pretty sure, from experience and what I've seen in the forum, that:
Staraptor is broken:
Choice Scarf can destroy offense too easily, ohkoing most sweepers and 2hkoing many walls
Choice Band can destroy stall too easily, 2hkoing basically the whole tier (that I can think of)
Figuring out which set it is can often cost you a pokemon.
Baton Pass is broken:
Espeon and maybe Mew are the culprits. The fact that passing to Espeon auto-beats Roar and Taunt makes it a lot more difficult to stop BP. The only teams that couldn't be undone by Baton Pass once you figured out their counters were....ones with Murkrow. Mew is a suspect already, so it's role on baton pass (boost bulk, never die) is only more incriminating.
Chansey is centralizing, but not broken:
If you don't prepare for Chansey, you are probably dead, but I feel like there are enough ways to deal with it that it isn't necessarily broken. The fact that chansey is a "prepare for X or lose a majority of games" pokemon doesn't really make it broken. You could just as easily say the same thing about Gliscor (in OU) or Raikou (in UU), and neither are particularly broken. Chansey is the bane of glass cannon pokemon, but if your team has enough physical presence to take it down or enough vitality to shrug off Seismic Toss + Status, then you can play around it. I think it was Flareblitz (although I know he wants chansey banned) who pointed out that every one of his teams shits on chansey. I think it's extremely strong, but not broken.
Victini is less strong than Staraptor, but might still be broken?:
I'm not really sure about Victini - it seems like the speed and defense drops can put it in a situation where offense can sac something and do damage in return. Stall on the other hand, can do decently with prediction if it carries a bulky water and something to take electric attacks. Rhyperior shits on it, and is also amazing in general, so that's an easy fix. Still, it will wreck through unprepared teams, and will do sick damage to even prepared teams with prediction. Not only that, but it has plenty of sets it can run to deal with the Choice sets' counters, so I'm not really sure which way to go on this.
Unless my points decay a lot, I will have upper reqs, which is why I wanted to post my opinions here - I feel if I'm not required to post sentences that I should make sure to justify my opinions. If someone has strong opposition to something I said, I want to hear it before I vote.
Staraptor is broken:
Choice Scarf can destroy offense too easily, ohkoing most sweepers and 2hkoing many walls
Choice Band can destroy stall too easily, 2hkoing basically the whole tier (that I can think of)
Figuring out which set it is can often cost you a pokemon.
Baton Pass is broken:
Espeon and maybe Mew are the culprits. The fact that passing to Espeon auto-beats Roar and Taunt makes it a lot more difficult to stop BP. The only teams that couldn't be undone by Baton Pass once you figured out their counters were....ones with Murkrow. Mew is a suspect already, so it's role on baton pass (boost bulk, never die) is only more incriminating.
Chansey is centralizing, but not broken:
If you don't prepare for Chansey, you are probably dead, but I feel like there are enough ways to deal with it that it isn't necessarily broken. The fact that chansey is a "prepare for X or lose a majority of games" pokemon doesn't really make it broken. You could just as easily say the same thing about Gliscor (in OU) or Raikou (in UU), and neither are particularly broken. Chansey is the bane of glass cannon pokemon, but if your team has enough physical presence to take it down or enough vitality to shrug off Seismic Toss + Status, then you can play around it. I think it was Flareblitz (although I know he wants chansey banned) who pointed out that every one of his teams shits on chansey. I think it's extremely strong, but not broken.
Victini is less strong than Staraptor, but might still be broken?:
I'm not really sure about Victini - it seems like the speed and defense drops can put it in a situation where offense can sac something and do damage in return. Stall on the other hand, can do decently with prediction if it carries a bulky water and something to take electric attacks. Rhyperior shits on it, and is also amazing in general, so that's an easy fix. Still, it will wreck through unprepared teams, and will do sick damage to even prepared teams with prediction. Not only that, but it has plenty of sets it can run to deal with the Choice sets' counters, so I'm not really sure which way to go on this.
Unless my points decay a lot, I will have upper reqs, which is why I wanted to post my opinions here - I feel if I'm not required to post sentences that I should make sure to justify my opinions. If someone has strong opposition to something I said, I want to hear it before I vote.
Chansey: The really really annoying thing is that even though my teams are explicitly built around making Chansey useless, it still manages to do something per game that justifies its presence on my opponent's team (usually by making staraptor suicide with its fatness or walling rhyperior). I just shudder to think of what it does to people who actually have special sweepers on their team. And I don't mean niche special sweepers like my agility/np Porygon-Z.
Hopefully we ban Chansey. Otherwise we're going to end up getting rid of everything that checks it (staraptor, wobby and mew are already on the chopping block this time) and make it even more annoying...
Baton Pass: I don't care if we get rid of Espeon, especially since it's going to be OU anyway. I will vehemently oppose a ban on baton pass (the move). I will also oppose a ban on gorebyss/huntail/smeargle/ninjask, although less strongly. In general I don't think the playstyle is imbalanced but it's really uncompetitive (see: moody).
Wobby: Don't think it's BL, especially compared to some of the other suspects. Might change my mind in the next metagame, if it becomes prominent enough.
Staraptor: Hopefully I don't need to say anything about our little bird here. I'll miss ya on my teams buddy.
Mew: Don't think it's BL. The individual sets are beatable, and the versatility doesn't push any of them over the edge, especially with team preview giving you a good idea of what it's likely to run.
Victini: Fairly underwhelming. I'd rather use Arcanine over physical variants to be honest. Mixed variants are painful against stall though, but not BL worthy.
Make me proud this round, gents.
Hopefully we ban Chansey. Otherwise we're going to end up getting rid of everything that checks it (staraptor, wobby and mew are already on the chopping block this time) and make it even more annoying...
Baton Pass: I don't care if we get rid of Espeon, especially since it's going to be OU anyway. I will vehemently oppose a ban on baton pass (the move). I will also oppose a ban on gorebyss/huntail/smeargle/ninjask, although less strongly. In general I don't think the playstyle is imbalanced but it's really uncompetitive (see: moody).
Wobby: Don't think it's BL, especially compared to some of the other suspects. Might change my mind in the next metagame, if it becomes prominent enough.
Staraptor: Hopefully I don't need to say anything about our little bird here. I'll miss ya on my teams buddy.
Mew: Don't think it's BL. The individual sets are beatable, and the versatility doesn't push any of them over the edge, especially with team preview giving you a good idea of what it's likely to run.
Victini: Fairly underwhelming. I'd rather use Arcanine over physical variants to be honest. Mixed variants are painful against stall though, but not BL worthy.
Make me proud this round, gents.
I started off, decided to get lazy and just test teams on the ladder and actually forgot to care about laddering. I believe i have enough experience to give my take on this round.
Chansey: I haven't had a problem with it in the past, but it's a very powerful wall. I don't believe it should be banned, but i wouldn't mind if it got banned at the same time.
Baton Pass: Please ban Baton Pass, it makes the game as a whole a little less fun everytime i face it.
Wobby: In the past, i've had no problem getting around Wobby, i don't believe it should be BL.
Staraptor: "baby until then i got to leave ya, it's not that i don't need ya but see ya"
Mew: It isn't powerful enough to be BL, i make sure i carry at least one fast pursuiter for Mew. Swords Dance set is pretty neat, but it isn't hard to deal with, i believe this thing should stay UU for another round or two.
Victini: CB Victini can be a hassle to deal with, luckily i'm one of the few that ever use those variants, Victini isn't broken at all, it's just a natural UU powerhouse.
Chansey: I haven't had a problem with it in the past, but it's a very powerful wall. I don't believe it should be banned, but i wouldn't mind if it got banned at the same time.
Baton Pass: Please ban Baton Pass, it makes the game as a whole a little less fun everytime i face it.
Wobby: In the past, i've had no problem getting around Wobby, i don't believe it should be BL.
Staraptor: "baby until then i got to leave ya, it's not that i don't need ya but see ya"
Mew: It isn't powerful enough to be BL, i make sure i carry at least one fast pursuiter for Mew. Swords Dance set is pretty neat, but it isn't hard to deal with, i believe this thing should stay UU for another round or two.
Victini: CB Victini can be a hassle to deal with, luckily i'm one of the few that ever use those variants, Victini isn't broken at all, it's just a natural UU powerhouse.
I think IMO Shell Smash should be the one banned, not Baton Pass. Really. Shell Smash only nerfs Crustle and Omastar, the former is rare and the latter is even rarer. You never see Magcargo or Torkoal in UU either. With SS' limited distribution, would this be a plausible idea?
(I mean seriously, the only people using Shell Smash are the ones being discussed a lot)
(I mean seriously, the only people using Shell Smash are the ones being discussed a lot)
I'm not quite sure if i'm at voting reqs this round, but here's my thoughts anyways.
Chansey: Not a major problem, annoying, not broken. How it will be next round is a different matter, depending on what gets the boot.
Staraptor: Bye bye friend. Reckless just does too much damage, simple as that.
Baton Pass: I want too se it in an environment without espeon, smashpass and mew. that's why i'll be voting no if there'll be a vote on BP.
Mew: Imo it's just too unpredictable, and combined with espeon it's broken. It might be able to stay for another round if Espeon gets the boot (or is simply moved up to OU).
Shell Smash: Gorebyss, huntail and Smeargle are broken.
Omastar is awesome, although the movepool leaves me wanting more.
All around i don't think the move itself is broken, only those three pokes. So ban them.
Wobbu: Not broken. The Encore nerf really hurt wobbu, if you're prepared it's no problem.
Chansey: Not a major problem, annoying, not broken. How it will be next round is a different matter, depending on what gets the boot.
Staraptor: Bye bye friend. Reckless just does too much damage, simple as that.
Baton Pass: I want too se it in an environment without espeon, smashpass and mew. that's why i'll be voting no if there'll be a vote on BP.
Mew: Imo it's just too unpredictable, and combined with espeon it's broken. It might be able to stay for another round if Espeon gets the boot (or is simply moved up to OU).
Shell Smash: Gorebyss, huntail and Smeargle are broken.
Omastar is awesome, although the movepool leaves me wanting more.
All around i don't think the move itself is broken, only those three pokes. So ban them.
Wobbu: Not broken. The Encore nerf really hurt wobbu, if you're prepared it's no problem.
If Baton Pass is going to be banned just because of Mew, Espeon and those who posses both Shell Smash and Baton Pass, then NO! Shell Pass will be banned and the 2 Psychic types will go to OU or BL.
Chansey? I really don't care either way.
Mew and Staraptor can say farewell, Mew's too versatile while Staraptor's too powerful.
Wobbuffet? See my opinion on Chansey.
Shell Smash? We need more priority...like in OU, send it there.
Chansey? I really don't care either way.
Mew and Staraptor can say farewell, Mew's too versatile while Staraptor's too powerful.
Wobbuffet? See my opinion on Chansey.
Shell Smash? We need more priority...like in OU, send it there.
I don't think it's broken either (with espeon maybe), but i meant that as a ban instead of banning Shell Smash + Bottom Pass, really, that's just nerfing the pokemon to make it right for UU, and why are they getting that kind of treath when blaziken and garchomp didn't, i don't think blaze blaziken is unbanned so why is SS gorebyss OK, but SmashPass gorebyss banned?, if the best set of a pokemon is broken then the whole pokemon is broken, not a move combo, so banning Gorebyss and Huntail (pokemon no-one uses outside of SmashPass) is IMO the best ban, smeargle is another boat, but Magic Coat+Spore+SS+BP is just as deadly, and if that's a broken set, then the entire smeargle is broken, complex bans should only be applied in situations where too many pokemons or battling styles are in danger to being unusable
Yes but then we need to prove that those Pokemon are the culprits. The "best" ban is the one in which the thing that is broken is banned. It doesn't matter who is effected by it, only if it's broken.
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