np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[Heysup]

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that any heated discussion that we do have is always going to end up fruitless. We are simply arguing from two separate intellectual standpoints, and when that happens nothing will ever come from it. I have explained time and time again why dozens of your arguments have little relevance to the main issue, yet you keep coming back and defending your indefensible statements, topping it off with a bit of twisted rhetoric to make it look like I am the one being ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I can't be doing with that, and it seems that no matter what I say, you will never change this mentality of yours, so why should I bother? You also don't seem to get that, being the accuser, the burden of proof is on you, not me. It is unreasonable to expect me to have to provide equal and opposite counter-arguments to every one of yours, when simply refuting or explaining the flaws in your arguments suffices. Innocent until proven guilty, so similarly, if it can't be proven that Froslass is BL material, it is UU.

I think we can both agree that this argument between us isn't going to go anywhere, ever, and therefore it is sensible to just recognize that and stop now. For the sake of our sanity if anything lol.

I was more referring to the fact that I have supplied proof and explanations, and you just simply say "no, and I don't need to disprove your arguments". If that isn't going to change then yes, we should just stop.

On a different note, I have been trying out my old DD Restalk Altaria that I used in old UU on my balance spikestacking team, and I'm pretty sure I 6-0 half of the teams I play because they simply can't take it down. After people lose Froslass, it seems that no one uses Ice Beam on anything anymore.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

On a different note, I have been trying out my old DD Restalk Altaria that I used in old UU on my balance spikestacking team, and I'm pretty sure I 6-0 half of the teams I play because they simply can't take it down. After people lose Froslass, it seems that no one uses Ice Beam on anything anymore.

I have still noticed quite a few Curse Registeels around, which use sets like that as setup fodder. But yeah, with Cro-esque sets in general, like those two, they are the kind of set that you know you should prepare more for but often find that you don't. On non-stall teams, it is often the case that you have one or two Pokes that can deal with it, but usually only if they are close to 100% health and expecting it. If not it can sometimes be a case of battering away and praying for the crit.

It may now actually be the perfect time for such sets to rise in use again, with stall becoming rarer and defensive Milotics tending to run less Haze and more Toxic, perhaps to avoid being completely open to the Raikou switch and being setup fodder. Strange how a Pokemon is more likely to forgo Haze for fear of being total setup fodder for something.

As for your Altaria set, I'm curious as to why you run ResTalk over Heal Bell + Roost? Is it to absorb sleep? That is the only reason I can see for dropping so much of Altaria's utility in the case of not being able to set up.

 

[A.P.]

I'm surprised Milotic usage is so high still, with both Raikou and Venusaur laughing at, though the former fears Toxic. I suppose it still has its many uses in stopping the same threats it always has. That, and there's not really anything else to take its spot.

On a side note, has anyone considered Shiftry in this metagame? Though I haven't really gotten an opportunity to test it out yet, I feel that it has good uses as a sweeper outside of sun. It got Low Kick in HGSS, an excellent addition to the SD set. With the right support, an SD set with Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch/Low Kick has the potential to be very effective.

Of course, it also has great Special Attack, and another boosting move to go with it in the form of Nasty Plot. Leaf Storm/Dark Pulse alone is ridiculously threatening, and the third move is mostly preference/type of teammates. Extrasensory is an option to hit Venusaur, or you could also try a Hidden Power, though it's not that useful. Power Swap is a nice gimmick option, as it allows you to fire off more Leaf Storms, though it's largely redundant with Nasty Plot. Explosion is probably the best option, as it's just an all-around coverage move.

Any thoughts?

 

[Vrolok]

Altaria is an interesting poke, the needed dragon of UU. If she had just a little bit better spread, she'd be top UU.

I think Heysup uses restalk so that he doesn't get locked into Outrage. And speaking of Power Swap, Altaria gets it as well as Draco Meteor.

 

[Mattman324]

While Froslass is a decent lead, I've found that Pinser (just make sure you run EQ) can defeat it many times. It gets Froslass down to the sash, and then most will either switch, or D-Bond, allowing you to protect (The set I've been using is Protect, SR, and one of EQ, [for Froslass], CC [for Ambipom], or X-scizzor [for Alakazam]).

On that note, any lead that isn't a ghost type (Spiritomb and Froslass) should run Protect, just so they can avoid Ambipom's Fake Out (also, it's a damn useful scouting move.)

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think Heysup uses restalk so that he doesn't get locked into Outrage. And speaking of Power Swap, Altaria gets it as well as Draco Meteor.

Yeah, that's a good point, I forgot about that and just assumed Dragon Claw as the attack. But still, 1 in 3 chance to attack reliably wouldn't sit well with me, although it is viable nonetheless.

Power Swap however is definitely a gimmick option.

 

[Valantaro]

While Froslass is a decent lead, I've found that Pinser (just make sure you run EQ) can defeat it many times. It gets Froslass down to the sash, and then most will either switch, or D-Bond, allowing you to protect (The set I've been using is Protect, SR, and one of EQ, [for Froslass], CC [for Ambipom], or X-scizzor [for Alakazam]).

On that note, any lead that isn't a ghost type (Spiritomb and Froslass) should run Protect, just so they can avoid Ambipom's Fake Out (also, it's a damn useful scouting move.)

Froslass is still guaranteed 2 layers of Spikes against Pinsir, so I don't see how it's "beating" Froslass. Killing it, yes, but the whole argument people have been making for it is the way it can reliably set up Spikes. If anything, your example is a scenario that could be used to justify Froslass excelling in the lead position.

 

[M BLADE]

I like the idea of putting Agility Moltres and Dugtrio together. Duggie can take out many special walls for Moltres. And Moltres fire Blast hurts.
Just need to pack something against waters and Altaria and you're set to go. Lanturn or Ludicolo fits great for that task.
It would be even best if you could BP with something that can take waters out without a problem(Plusle is too frail to pass Nasty Plots... oh well).

 

[Valantaro]

Hypno and Mr. Mime could work out decently, both sporting high Special Defense and with the latter even having the option to use Thunderbolt on its already very good Base 100 Special Attack.

 

[Heysup]

I have still noticed quite a few Curse Registeels around, which use sets like that as setup fodder. But yeah, with Cro-esque sets in general, like those two, they are the kind of set that you know you should prepare more for but often find that you don't. On non-stall teams, it is often the case that you have one or two Pokes that can deal with it, but usually only if they are close to 100% health and expecting it. If not it can sometimes be a case of battering away and praying for the crit.

I actually disagree with you (for a change) here. I find it hard to not prepare for Pokemon like that. If I'm using a stall team (I never do), I'll have Roar. If I'm using an offensive team, I will always have Taunt or Encore.

Also, non-curse Registeels lose to DDtalk altaria because outrage 2HKOes at +6, and it can only manage about 27% vs Altaria with Iron Head.

1 in 3 chance to attack reliably wouldn't sit well with me, although it is viable nonetheless.

I guess if you look at it like that it seems unreliable, but usually it won't matter since the opponent will not be able to KO you quick enough anyway.

 

[M BLADE]

Hypno and Mr. Mime could work out decently, both sporting high Special Defense and with the latter even having the option to use Thunderbolt on its already very good Base 100 Special Attack.

Mr.Mime easily dies to Azumarill Aqua Jet. Hypno is good though since it has grass moves to hit waters.
The main problem (providing Dugtrio takes the things Moltres has problems with) is anything that uses Aqua Jet(Feraligatr murders poor Hypno... Azumarill has an overly strong Aqua Jet. Kabutops is annoying too. And Dugtrio can't revenge them unless they are low at health...)

Unless i use Barrier AND Nasty Plot on Mr.Mime. Which is damn hard to pass 2 things at once.

But yes, Hypno can work with Grass Knot.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I actually disagree with you (for a change) here. I find it hard to not prepare for Pokemon like that. If I'm using a stall team (I never do), I'll have Roar. If I'm using an offensive team, I will always have Taunt or Encore.

You mean Perish Song for stall right? Roar is not a reliable answer to a boosting tank for obvious reasons. My Calm Mind / Rest Raikou has finished off several stall teams lacking Perish Song by itself with ease, for example.

I see where you're coming from in terms of non-stall, but the point is that there are so many different Pokemon that can do it that I find it easy to overlook one or two for any given team. Taunt and Encore are great and all, but the Pokemon carrying them have to be in decent enough condition to reliably come in and take an attack to respond to said threat (hence the bit when I said "in decent health and expecting it"), which isn't always the case. Unless you use Taunt or Encore on every Pokemon, which is unlikely.

Also, non-curse Registeels lose to DDtalk altaria because outrage 2HKOes at +6, and it can only manage about 27% vs Altaria with Iron Head.

Couldn't Registeel just Explode in such a situation? Explosion is one of the best emergency moves after all, and that is no exception against Cro-like sets, except for Cursers and Ghosts obviously.

For many reasons. Firstly, I can absorb sleep. Secondly, so that I can smack things with Outrage and not get locked in.

Yeah I get why you would go that route. But of course if you can beat everything one-on-one anyway, the perk isn't avoiding the lock-in, but avoiding the chance of KOing yourself in confusion afterwards.

 

[green_flash]

i've read a post about the fact that raikou is countered by chansey, registeel and regice. this is, in fact, false. a modest thunder raikou at +1 satk is capable of 2hkoing registeel without any hazards aid, 2hkoing regice guaranteed after stealth rock damages, and 2hkoing chansey by simply using life orb. hell, with life orb support it is even capable of taking out uber blissey in two hits after calm minding twice lol.

 

[Heysup]

You mean Perish Song for stall right? Roar is not a reliable answer to a boosting tank for obvious reasons. My Calm Mind / Rest Raikou has finished off several stall teams lacking Perish Song by itself with ease, for example.

Makes sense....I obviously never use stall lol.

I see where you're coming from in terms of non-stall, but the point is that there are so many different Pokemon that can do it that I find it easy to overlook one or two for any given team. Taunt and Encore are great and all, but the Pokemon carrying them have to be in decent enough condition to reliably come in and take an attack to respond to said threat (hence the bit when I said "in decent health and expecting it"), which isn't always the case. Unless you use Taunt or Encore on every Pokemon, which is unlikely.

Valid point for Cro-Calm Mind and Bulk Uppers. But with Curse-talkers, they will always be going last so Encore will always screw them over even if they get a free turn on you.

Couldn't Registeel just Explode in such a situation? Explosion is one of the best emergency moves after all, and that is no exception against Cro-like sets, except for Cursers and Ghosts obviously.

Raikou exists, so Explosion is rarely used. I mean, you essentially need Earthquake in this metagame.

Yeah I get why you would go that route. But of course if you can beat everything one-on-one anyway, the perk isn't avoiding the lock-in, but avoiding the chance of KOing yourself in confusion afterwards.

Well sometimes people think they can just beat Altaria with status and whatever, but then I rest. This forces them out, so I would much rather be able to smack their switch with a +X Outrage then have to switch out. For example, someone uses a Thunder Wave Slowbro, and they hit me with Twave and then spam Psychic which does a pathetic amount of damage because they don't want to risk me smacking their switch-in with a boosted Outrage. After like 3 DD's, I'll Rest. Then he goes "Oh shit" and sends in an Ice Beam / Roar / Haze user like Milotic, Blastoise, or even something like Registeel. I can then possibly smack their counter with a +3 Outrage, which hits hard enough to do (30.49% - 35.99%) to Registeel and then switch out. Factor in residual damage, and they are going to have a really tough time stopping Altaria the next time I come in.

With the Heal Bell set, not only do I have less PP to heal status, I'd have to lock myself in to hit the switch-in, and possibly just faint to something like Registeel or Steelix.

On a side note:

Is anyone else disappointed for with stats for the first time ever? I just see them as being flawed because they aren't "current" because the BL Pokemon weren't added in for a while. While it is impressive to see that they still managed to get up there, "true" stats would be much better. Doug is still awesome as always though.

 

[Valantaro]

Mr.Mime easily dies to Azumarill Aqua Jet. Hypno is good though since it has grass moves to hit waters.
The main problem (providing Dugtrio takes the things Moltres has problems with) is anything that uses Aqua Jet(Feraligatr murders poor Hypno... Azumarill has an overly strong Aqua Jet. Kabutops is annoying too. And Dugtrio can't revenge them unless they are low at health...)

Unless i use Barrier AND Nasty Plot on Mr.Mime. Which is damn hard to pass 2 things at once.

But yes, Hypno can work with Grass Knot.

Well, obviously neither of them can stat up on the likes of physical Waters, however, from your post, I was guessing you were inferring bulky waters such as Milotic and Slowbro, since you mentioned Plusle (unless you were being sarcastic).

 

[A.P.]

Then just use a bulky water or grass. Blastoise works wonders.

@Heysup: Yeah, I am. Also disappointed at Regirock's huge fall.

 

[Urbanism]

Okay, I've been wondering for a while now. Why is Dewgong deep, deep in NU? Hydration is such a broken ability, and Dewgong is bulky enough to take advantage of it effectively. Sure, I could see people making a case for not using it because Water/Ice is kinda bad, or it having an average movepool, but it only being used 321 times all month? Dewgong needs love. :(

EDIT: Wow, just noticed the October stats. 221? :(

 

[XenoIncognito]

Okay, I've been wondering for a while now. Why is Dewgong deep, deep in NU? Hydration is such a broken ability, and Dewgong is bulky enough to take advantage of it effectively. Sure, I could see people making a case for not using it because Water/Ice is kinda bad, or it having an average movepool, but it only being used 321 times all month? Dewgong needs love. :(

EDIT: Wow, just noticed the October stats. 221? :(

Because nothing really sets it apart from other Ice/Waters. Walrein can pull of a superior hail stall set. Cloyster can be extremely defensive, set up entry hazards, and get rid of Froslass. Even Lapras play both the defensive and offensive field with DD or Perish sets. Hydration is really the only thing that makes it sort different, and it's nowhere near bulky enough to outstall anything, even with Rest. Also, its movepool is depressing.

 

[M BLADE]

Well, obviously neither of them can stat up on the likes of physical Waters, however, from your post, I was guessing you were inferring bulky waters such as Milotic and Slowbro, since you mentioned Plusle (unless you were being sarcastic).

Plusle can't even take 2 hits from bulky waters... it can force them out though. The only reason i mentioned it.(Another reason is that i forgot Hypno lol)


PS: I knew that Arcanine would be top 10 by now. I see this one every damn match.
There's Venusaur in #4, but ONLY because of Roserade gone. Arcanine got the boost from usage alone.

 

[Thund91]

Hypno and Mr. Mime could work out decently, both sporting high Special Defense and with the latter even having the option to use Thunderbolt on its already very good Base 100 Special Attack.

I've used Hypno, and I must say it does pretty well. It's a perfect counter to special Venusaurs, and can even handle Physical variants sometimes by Thunder Waving as they SD then setting up a Reflect. (Assuming you're switching in on Sleep Powder. Insomnia ftw.)

Unfortunately the fact that Honchkrow is so common doesn't help.

 

[M BLADE]

I've used Hypno, and I must say it does pretty well. It's a perfect counter to special Venusaurs, and can even handle Physical variants sometimes by Thunder Waving as they SD then setting up a Reflect. (Assuming you're switching in on Sleep Powder. Insomnia ftw.)

Unfortunately the fact that Honchkrow is so common doesn't help.

He can be used to cripple one or two pokes in a Rain Dance Team too.
He's versatile. I wish it could get Encore...

Anyone tried Exeggutor? Same problems that Hypno has(Honchrow...) but min speed and Trick Room is really nice(Trick Room only for itself).
Leaf Storm from Exeggutor HURTS.

 

[Heysup]

I've used Hypno, and I must say it does pretty well. It's a perfect counter to special Venusaurs, and can even handle Physical variants sometimes by Thunder Waving as they SD then setting up a Reflect. (Assuming you're switching in on Sleep Powder. Insomnia ftw.)

Unfortunately the fact that Honchkrow is so common doesn't help.

He loses to Slowbro 1v1 though!!!! That match was terribly tedious....

 

[A.P.]

On a side note, has anyone considered Shiftry in this metagame? Though I haven't really gotten an opportunity to test it out yet, I feel that it has good uses as a sweeper outside of sun. It got Low Kick in HGSS, an excellent addition to the SD set. With the right support, an SD set with Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch/Low Kick has the potential to be very effective.

Of course, it also has great Special Attack, and another boosting move to go with it in the form of Nasty Plot. Leaf Storm/Dark Pulse alone is ridiculously threatening, and the third move is mostly preference/type of teammates. Extrasensory is an option to hit Venusaur, or you could also try a Hidden Power, though it's not that useful. Power Swap is a nice gimmick option, as it allows you to fire off more Leaf Storms, though it's largely redundant with Nasty Plot. Explosion is probably the best option, as it's just an all-around coverage move.

Any thoughts?

 

[Thund91]

He loses to Slowbro 1v1 though!!!! That match was terribly tedious....

That was you??? Lmfao.

Yeah the choice between Psychic/Seismic Toss is a bitch but I always go with Psychic. :|

 

[A.P.]

Oddly enough, despite all the hype, I've found that Umbreon is the most common of the three OU dropouts, despite what the stats say.

And I'll admit, I'm very impressed with its ability. Basically every Umbreon runs the same set, and it works, for a reason.

Umbreon is a killer Special Wall, and Curse makes it a killer physical one too. After a Curse, it is not 2HKO'd by Moltres Fire Blast or Swellow's Facade, which makes it extremely impressive in my eyes.