I'd like to start by thanking you for taking the time to post a legitimate and detailed explanation of why you think I'm incorrect, it's refreshing :D
I don't think there's any 'think' about it, the above quotes are only from one post, even, but you're making this ridiculous statement that essentially your opinion is right and anyone who thinks otherwise is "looking at it the wrong way", and I guess more specifically you're making a claim that there is objectively a correct way to go here, which is pretty silly. The reason the whole voting process exists because there is not an objective correct decision to make in these debates. This isn't a math problem, there is not a right or wrong answer, that is why there is a group process involved to try to get the solution that is best for the most people, not to find a magical correct answer that won't get us marked off on the exam.
What I'm trying to say is that we need to step back and look at the big picture rather than be pedantic and look at the details of which Pokemon should be considered broken.
My analogy wasn't trying to point out that the voting process should be like a math question, I was trying to explain that our plan of action was like a math question in which we already have the answer too. I was trying to say that we've already seen, in previous metagames, that the 3 BL Pokemon were in fact broken. Being able to vote them back to BL so that they don't interfere further with the test in the counter productive manner that they have been. Unless I'm mistaken, our intention was to eventually re-evaluate them anyway when we have a (by definition) almost stable metagame. Dropping them in at this time was simply illogical, because the reason for dropping them in was at a "random time" instead of a time where we could form valid opinions on the Pokemon.
This is the "mess" I was talking about, and how the only sensible solution seems to be reversing the decision that was made. This metagame was pretty horrendous, it's the first time that I actually could not bare to play much of UU.
Teifu said:
I didn't include anything from your second post, but yes, the circumstances do change now. Pokemon have come and left the tier since the last time these Pokemon were UU, it is a([n] at least slightly) different game now, so it's completely conceivable that they could be more or less broken than they were before since they are against different opposition now. While an argument can(and probably will through the votes) be made that they're broken once again, it is more than a little pretentious to treat it as a foregone conclusion.
I was referring to the technicalities of the voting process when I said the circumstances were changed (I wasn't clear, sorry). What I mean by this is that people will be in a different state of mind when they are voting to get a 66+1 as opposed to a simple majority.
However I will disagree with anyone who says the metagame has changed enough to warrant their retesting. The only debatable Pokemon who had a better time in the other metagames was Raikou, who now isn't stopped by random Pokemon such as Abomasnow (who IMO was a better counter than any Pokemon we have currently since it's actually "really good" in the metagame (Dugtrio is good but not "Abomasnow good"))
Teifu said:
I don't personally find the game right now to be quite as imbalanced as has been stated anyway, while it's pretty easy to rip apart the Pokemon individually I don't find the whole song to be quite as broken as the individual verses; there's still a pretty decent variety of Pokemon doing well right now and it is not as if any of the suspects are real sweeping threats. Gallade(and to a lesser extent Honchkrow with it's arsenal, but I'll get to that in a moment) is probably too good at ensuring it at least gets one or two just because it really isn't that hard to switch in and Close Combat in particular just does so much to basically everything, which becomes even worse coupled with the fact it has plenty of ways to deal with it's immunity. I think Gallade does some good things for the metagame too, though, in that it does a nice job of combating a lot of the UU stall teams that relied (at least, in my opinion) far too heavily on switching between Pokemon that were basically 100% counters to whatever was out on the other side of the field... I think having more Pokemon that can threaten that is a good thing, though his effect elsewhere in the metagame probably doesn't make it worth it.
I'm not sure if this was still replying to my argument about the mindset we should have when choosing who to vote BL, but I still disagree either way.
The metagame we have right now is a highly technical term known as a "shit storm". There is much less balance then I have seen in all my UU experience, which has been every metagame (actively I might add). In no other metagame did I mindlessly get to top 5 using 3 broken Pokemon because the metagame was too weak to fend them off. People can't use Chansey or Registeel viably because there is Honchkrow, Gallade, Rhyperior, and Dugtrio (among others). People can't use Dugtrio as anything but a Chansey or Registeel destroyer because of the obvious Pursuit bait it is from Honchkrow. This creates an absolutely perfect metagame for Raikou to sweep in. Froslass, without Crobat, Roserade, or essentially any viability of "Froslass counters" can simply run a bulky set and set up Spikes on about half the metagame, while beating them as well. This, in a metagame with Pokemon such as Swellow, Sceptile, (Raikou), and Alakazam is not going to be handle these fast and already impossibly hard hitting Pokemon (especially Swellow). Honchkrow has no switch ins. Gallade has no switch ins. What more can I say?
Teifu said:
Honchkrow, on the other hand, plays a pretty similar game and I've never really found it to be that big of a problem. I've played it in games where it kills half my team(or mine kills half the opposition's), and played in games where it's done basically nothing, and I think it's almost completely determined by how it is combated... the people who have been complaining that you can't swap in a wall and expect it to live are absolutely right(although with all the recoil happening stall can still do it pretty well); Honchkrow seems to be designed to rip apart that line of thinking. I don't think it is such a big problem that it is a Pokemon that needs to be combated more with smart thinking than with switching in a defensive Pokemon repeatedly; generally whichever of the Honchkrow user and its opponent is smarter about move selection (both because of Sucker Punch, and because of how frail it is to enter the field to begin with while carrying a Stealth Rock weakness) will normally come out ahead, and I'd say that's pretty much exactly what we want in "a balanced metagame" anyway. I'd be a little disappointed if Honchkrow got voted up, personally, although I think that it'd be a little more annoying with Gallade and Raikou gone since they Honchkrow and they kind of threaten each other.
Honchkrow is a different beast all together, imo. You have Honchkrow, who can essentially destroy any Pokemon who switches in. You also, however, have Pokemon such as Blaziken, Magmortar, or even Nidoking who can do the same. The difference is that Honchkrow does this with "little effort". This is what seals the deal for me at least. Being able to OHKO / 2HKO almost the whole metagame save 4-5 Pokemon is ridiculous, and being able to 2HKO or OHKO them with one coverage move is also ridiculous. The immunities, and revenge killing power are unmatched (Blaziken's priority is less than half as strong....) by the others as well. This is why teams crumble to Honchkrow and not these other hard-hitters. It's definitely worthy of suspect status at least, imo.
Teifu said:
The Sub/CM sets just aren't that effective with Pokemon like Registeel, Chansey(although I have no idea why anyone would use Chansey), Umbreon, and even Venusaur able to shut it down pretty easily, all of whom have become rather popular. I was probably the world's biggest Raikou fanboy in Adv (and to a lesser extent in GSC, I guess) so I'm not impartial here either, but the damage he causes even compared to what he did in OU last gen is pretty trivial. Even with the more offensive LO sets it is pretty much completely incapable of sweeping with all the priority flying around and the fact basically everything has EQ, and even stuff like Rhyperior it would have destroyed last gen's equivalents of handle it pretty well. If it could have both HP Grass and Ice (and maybe 5 moves on its set) I would find it to be more gamebreaking, but even running Rhyperior and Venusaur on your team would make it almost irrelevant unless you lost one of them too early in the game(which is your own fault anyway...). While it's ever so slightly easier to mess with thanks to Life Orb's existence this gen, Dugtrio having since dropped down to UU helps negate Raikou as well(when people aren't deleting him by trying to kill Rhyperior with him for reasons I never understand), much as he did last gen.
As I mentioned previously, the threats in this metagame essentially shape it into a metagame where Raikou absolutely wrecks teams. Having so many Pokemon that can easily pick Registeel and Chansey apart is just a start. The biggest flaw in the "Raikou has checks" argument is that these checks are easily passable / removable with very simple strategies that require little to no effort. Dugtrio destroys Chansey and Registeel incredibly easily, and weakens Regirock, Steelix, and the others to the point of not being able to counter Raikou anymore. Rhyperior can only switch in
once on Raikou, same with Venusaur (even max SpD).
Raikou also flat out beats all but 10 Pokemon (who comfortably stop Raikou at least once) who are classified "UU", and some of them need to be specialized, such as Steelix who becomes much easier to beat with Dugtrio due to SpD EVs.
I think Raikou is the most clearly BL Pokemon out of the four, actually.
Teifu said:
I think he has some position effects on the metagame as well. It sure hurts those stupid rain teams, which thanks to all the focus sashing and such really don't take much "skill" to play anyway; I'm a fan of anything that slows them down, and even though it can't do much during the rain if you can pop it out at the right turn with the rain down (which is usually easy) it does a nice job of interrupting that style. I just don't see it as all that threatening, and my team is not even very prepared for it. It's kind of sad to say as someone who had really hoped/expected him to stay as one of the better OU pokemon forever, but I'd say he fits in just fine here, which is a testament to how far he's fallen.
While I'm in favor of having more Pokemon to check Rain, that is not an argument for Raikou being UU. Raikou does a mediocre job of that anyway imo.
Teifu said:
I would not be terribly surprised to find all four of the above Pokemon in BL a month from now, but I think it is awfully silly to say that any(well, maybe Gallade...) or all of them 'objectively' can't belong.
That depends on you objective. My objective (and some others who have agreed when I posted about this a while back) is to try and get the most stable metagame possible. The only way we know will help stabilize the metagame is to remove what unstabilized it, since those are the Pokemon who must me broken if they are causing the metagame to be unstable. Seems logical too me at least.
That's just what I think the best solution is anyway.
