Restrict? Perhaps, but only in the good way. As I mentioned; without Aegis. The meta will be plagued by earth shattering offense with no real ways of stopping it. Ande the 720 BST argument is stupid. You people are acting like it doesn't have to burn a turn (of which it can be setup on) to switch back to it's defensive form. As if it's perpetually base 720 with absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Please enlighten me to the pokes other than Aegi that have 5 or 6 very viable sets to screw over there would be counters?
Hello, I'm kinda new on these forums. I registered here just to discuss it.
Aegislash is strong and has strong defenses, but his moves are not as varied and their movesets are extremely predictable, not leaving Iron Head, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, Swords Dance and especially King's Shield.
Like any type Steel, has many resistances and Ghost type takes the weakness to Fighting. But Fire-type moves, Dark and Ground are very common (the most common in the competitive, I think) and the combo Swords Dance + Shadow Sneak is completely broken by Sucker Punch and Foul Play, and still suffered a lot with the buff Knock Off.
In my opinion, he should not be banned from OU, under any circumstances. I've played a lot against Aegislash and never had difficulty facing them, including using low tiers Pokemon like Donphan and Typhlosion.
Aegislash is strong and has strong defenses, but his moves are not as varied and their movesets are extremely predictable, not leaving Iron Head, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, Swords Dance and especially King's Shield.
Like any type Steel, has many resistances and Ghost type takes the weakness to Fighting. But Fire-type moves, Dark and Ground are very common (the most common in the competitive, I think) and the combo Swords Dance + Shadow Sneak is completely broken by Sucker Punch and Foul Play, and still suffered a lot with the buff Knock Off.
In my opinion, he should not be banned from OU, under any circumstances. I've played a lot against Aegislash and never had difficulty facing them, including using low tiers Pokemon like Donphan and Typhlosion.
Its not about having multiple viable sets, which many pokemon do. Its about having multiple sets, that are able to counter pokemon that would otherwise counter you. ie mandibuzz counters the most common aegi set, but the sub toxic set beats mandibuzz, making it no longer an aegi counter. Understand?
I'm personally surprised this is a test happening now, and not earlier when it was clear that Aegislash was a dominating force. So what happened in between now and the beginning of the year when Aegislash wasn't an issue? 50/50's with King's Shield are completely irrelevant when you figure out the set, I just don't see why people have had a greater difficulty with it now than in the past. That makes this suspect test a little laughable imo. Sure, it's unpredictable, has great stats, a movepool to give it just what it needs, but is it really necessary to ban something that actually encourages smart teambuilding? It really isn't that difficult to face, and to say that all of it's checks fail against it based on its set is silly when you just have to figure the set out. Luckily, it can't run everything. So it's gonna have it's checks. I see why it can be suspected, but not even close to banworthy when all the checks/tools/player intelligence is there.
Ok so for now I have no real opinion on Aegislash and I'm leaning towards not banning it if and when that time comes. I've seen some of the arguments so far and way before this suspect and they haven't really convinced me. Call me stubborn, give me shit about it, idc. Like someone already mentioned it really comes down to what kind of meta game you want. The underlying tones I'm getting out of peoples arguments is simply "We don't want to deal with it". I mean I'm pretty interested in seeing a meta without Aegislash on this suspect test as I might be able to make a more decisive decision on if Aegislash should go or not. Until then I'll have to wait and see.
Forgot to mention that the strategy ''Attack and hide behind King's Shield'' is also broken. Gives a turn to the opponent to use a move buff or restore HP. I used this a lot with Gyarados Dragon Dance.
Oh, so like... What thundurus-i, Landorus-i, Natural Gift Talonflame, EQ latios, or the infinite number of Hidden Power special attackers all do? Sure, less sets but, for example, EQ latios is hitting basically all it's general counters in one (Heatran, Sharp, TTar, Aegi, Mawile). Thundurus has two or three sets for Chansey and even a grass knot set for defiant to hit quagsire. Knock off landorus as an adaption to the use of chansey, who would otherwise be a decent counter?
Like that, right... Something that's completely not unique to Aegislash and other mons do just as well.
Just going to put out there. Aegislash's movepool is amazingly large. You are missing: Toxic, Shadow Ball, Automatize, Head Smash, Flash Cannon, Substitute, and Hidden Power. I am sure I am missing some more from this list as well, considering this is just off the top of my head. Aegislash is anything but predictable. Not saying I agree with him being banned, I don't lean either way, but we need to argue with correct facts.
Edit for the above: Just going to say, I would consider both Thundy-I and Lando-I broken. Natural Gift Talonflame however, is not a fair comparison. It is one time use, and pretty easy to scout. (Leftovers, Life Orb, and Choice Band are not hard to figure out if they are equiped) I have never seen a Latios with Earthquake, so I have no comment there and Hidden Power is pretty weak and only note worthy in a few situations, with them being pretty standard and predictable as well.
So what if it Sacred Sword's while you Dragon Dance? Or uses Substitute or Toxic? These kind of 50/50 situations are a contributing factor to Aegislash's suspect-worthiness.
Excuse me, but how do you restrict team building in a good way? How would an Aegi ban plague the meta with "earth shattering offense" when it already is? I understand what you're trying to say but please give me some specific examples on how the meta would change for the worse.
Why do not you speak also of other pokemon that kill aegislash? Only those who can switch on Him.
Char Y & X
Keldeo 2Kho with Hydropump
Excadrill
Landorus-I & T
Garchomp
Gliscor
Scizor
Hippowdon is slowly than aegislash and kill him
There are many others who "may" win against aegislash. It seems that you are saying that ONLY those 3 pokemon can win with aegislash.
Good defensive typing and stats are one thing but what makes Aegislash so great is its ability to run many different sets and the mind games it causes. The most common ones are quiet mixed shadow ball nuke and adamant swords dance, but I've seen success with automize weakness policy, toxic stall and sub shadow ball/sacred sword. This makes it so it has a niche on almost every sort of team. The problem is that it's weak to the most common attacking types and only one of its stabs is useful offensively. Even with a +2 it can't ohko checks like landorus-t, garchomp and heatran with shadow sneak. Not to mention reliable counters to its most common sets like Mandibuzz and Chesnaught. It's a top tier mon but I hardly think it dominates or centralizes OU enough to deserve a ban.
If you would see my previous forum post. Concepts like Cm garde/tran. T punch medi and CC pinsir would be too easy to build with and offense would have zero problem against most other play styles. Aegislash is the sole reason why these aren't as rampant as they could be, and this is a good thing. Restriction isn't always a bad thing. Offensive isn't nearly as deadly as it could be simply because Aegislash exists. Yes it effects the metagame to a great degree, but in very little negative light. The positive of keeping Aegis far outweigh the negative.
Since when are ladder statistics the end all be all of what a Pokemon runs? This has been said over and over again that ladder statistics don't mean much considering that a lot of less than stellar players can skew those stats. Popularity doesn't not meant good or better than other options it has. Look at Deo-D for example, everyone and their grandmothers ran SR / Spikes / Taunt / Thunder Wave on the ladder, right? Sure that set works and its bread and butter but Spikes aren't that great in today's meta and often times you lose valuable turns if you can't guarantee that hazards stay up. However, a lot of players like Dice, CTC, High Impulse and others prefered to run SR / Taunt / Recover / S-Toss or Spikes. Why? This set despite being less common, it was considered better by many players because of what it could to against stall and made keeping up hazards more reliable because you didn't sack it turn 4 and it could continue pestering the other team by recovering up and getting hazards up again. Just because the ladder hasn't caught up to what's being used in Tourney play doesn't mean those sets are inferior.
I had heard of this possible suspect, who is now unfortunately become reality. I have already made an idea about the possible ban, so here some thought.
Aegislash was the most awaited pokemon of XY, why? because is the first pokemon capable of checking/countering Terrakion (especially Choice Band set) in OU scenario;with his incredible Ghost/Steel typing he s also a good check of many Offensive threaths of the metagame that otherwise would be seen everywhere, it is, for example, a good answer against Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir or Hawlucha, while air baloon gives it the possibility to check Mega Heracross and also counter some ground type such as Gliscor, Excadrill or Diggersby. With the effective ban of both Deoxys forms Aegislash s ability to enter almost everytime on Chansey makes it one of the few pieces in the hands of offensive players who have to face a metagame increasingly based on the use of stall teams. I personally don t think that Stance Change + King's Shield combo, considering Aegislash weakness to Ground/ Fire typing (Garchomp, Excadrill, Charizard X/Y and Talonflame are all top 10 usage) , opens more 50/50 scenarios than other mons like Bisharp or Mega Mawile. The difficulty of Countering/Checking him is maybe the reason for wich some player consider it "broken" and for wich Aegislash is under suspect, most common switch in such as Heatran, Diggersby, SdefGliscor and Mandibuzz can be pulled down easily, in fact running LO full speed it can 2hoko Heatran on entry with Sacred Sword, Running baloon, as I already told, it can check Ground types, while(quite inusual) Head Smash basically allows him to Hoko Mandibuzz after Stealth Rocks damage.
Probabily after laddering i will have more clear ideas, but right now I think that even if it totally centralise the metagame, it guarantees a good equilibrium in this metagame too and therefore deserves to remain in OU, at least, i don t really think it deserves to be banned more than something like Charizard
Aegislash was the most awaited pokemon of XY, why? because is the first pokemon capable of checking/countering Terrakion (especially Choice Band set) in OU scenario;with his incredible Ghost/Steel typing he s also a good check of many Offensive threaths of the metagame that otherwise would be seen everywhere, it is, for example, a good answer against Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir or Hawlucha, while air baloon gives it the possibility to check Mega Heracross and also counter some ground type such as Gliscor, Excadrill or Diggersby. With the effective ban of both Deoxys forms Aegislash s ability to enter almost everytime on Chansey makes it one of the few pieces in the hands of offensive players who have to face a metagame increasingly based on the use of stall teams. I personally don t think that Stance Change + King's Shield combo, considering Aegislash weakness to Ground/ Fire typing (Garchomp, Excadrill, Charizard X/Y and Talonflame are all top 10 usage) , opens more 50/50 scenarios than other mons like Bisharp or Mega Mawile. The difficulty of Countering/Checking him is maybe the reason for wich some player consider it "broken" and for wich Aegislash is under suspect, most common switch in such as Heatran, Diggersby, SdefGliscor and Mandibuzz can be pulled down easily, in fact running LO full speed it can 2hoko Heatran on entry with Sacred Sword, Running baloon, as I already told, it can check Ground types, while(quite inusual) Head Smash basically allows him to Hoko Mandibuzz after Stealth Rocks damage.
Probabily after laddering i will have more clear ideas, but right now I think that even if it totally centralise the metagame, it guarantees a good equilibrium in this metagame too and therefore deserves to remain in OU, at least, i don t really think it deserves to be banned more than something like Charizard
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I'm borderline, maybe leaning towards no ban, mostly because you usually beat it if you predict right, and usually lose if you predict wrong, and crying about having to predict something is naturally unappealing to me. The problem is the rising popularity of its sub sets. I kind of wish we'd waited a little longer to see how its usage changes with not every single one be a air balloon spin blocker for Deoxys, but by the time the suspect test is done, I think we'll know how it'll have updated itself.
I do see a lot of ridiculous claims regarding its brokenness however. It's so effective at its role because of it's great defenses and great offenses. It is not a broken sweeper, and if you isolate it's wallbreaking sets, they're hard to pull of solely physical or solely special. Moves like Head Smash are laughable and moves like automize are niche and require vast team support. If it gets banned, it'll be because it can abuse its low speed and great defenses to absorb hits and hit back harder, or because it can abuse the prediction games to reliably set up moves like sub and swords dance. I'd prefer we not get carried away, this is a very arguable case and the bandwagon needs to settle down.
I do see a lot of ridiculous claims regarding its brokenness however. It's so effective at its role because of it's great defenses and great offenses. It is not a broken sweeper, and if you isolate it's wallbreaking sets, they're hard to pull of solely physical or solely special. Moves like Head Smash are laughable and moves like automize are niche and require vast team support. If it gets banned, it'll be because it can abuse its low speed and great defenses to absorb hits and hit back harder, or because it can abuse the prediction games to reliably set up moves like sub and swords dance. I'd prefer we not get carried away, this is a very arguable case and the bandwagon needs to settle down.
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I agree. Mind games on king's shield are another problem.
All the pokemon you have mentioned are weak at least to one of the three aegi's set
It's about time this is happening to my ghastly friend. It really isn't about it being broken or not. It's more so that it so over centralizing that it's basically makes the meta as it is now. I really don't have fun facing it either, because you're not really sure what set it is, until it makes a move, which can be devastating if you make the wrong move. Aegislash has been one of those Pokemon that makes this tier not very fun for me, so I can't wait to see this thing gone (that is, if that happens). It's going to take some time to convince people why this Poke is unhealthy for the meta. Let's just say I want this gone as much as I want weather to be gone in 5th Gen OU. Ban plz
Aegislash is one of the best pokemon in OU and banning it would allow a lot of other things to shine. However there could be more negative side-effects to banning aegi such as the rise in mega cham and mega gard sure there are other things to kill them and keep them in check but aegi can handle and check a load of pokemon on both offense and stall teams and it allows you to a player to add an extra sweeper on an offensive team or gives the player a much needed slot on a balanced team. Aegi can be handled due to the players adapting to this ungodly sword and handle him by predicting what moveset he is running and move he is about to use so you dont get bish killed by a sacred sword. It is godly and is the center of metagame right now I don't see as being overpowered like something like mega luke or kanga and I think he should stay in ou but it is up to the community to decide what kind of metagame they want.
I particularily like aegi as he can do soo much in one teamslot yet has a ton of pokes that can check aegislash. Sure aegi is scary but it has four moveslot syndrome and almost always run at least two of the three king shield shadowball and shadow sneak. He is versatile but very predicatable in a sense. There might be no counters to aegislash but a lot of pokemon due a good job of checking him and beat him if you switch into the right move sure there are 50/50s but thats the same with a lot of other pokes if their were no 50/50s in a game of pokemon then it wouldnt be competitive or fun for that matter. Mixed wall umbreon counters most aegi sets and can check if it sets up to +2 which is pretty amazing but umbreon isnt used that much because he is often dead weight other than that. I see a lot of negative aspects coming from a potential ban especially with the new ORAS coming around the corner maybe we should wait until these new games come out before and the meta shifts before we decide whether aegi is borked as something like new megas could drastically affect the way aegis fit into the new ORAS meta. A suspect now less than four months after before we will have new shiny toys to play with does not make sense especially with something that isnt broken just overcentralizing as we will have a new meta before the year ends. To conclude aegi is a metagame defining poke but has been adapted by players in teambuilding and in playing against it to be handled fairly well next we have a ORAS coming out giving us new potential aegi checks and counters in the form of new mega pokes.
I particularily like aegi as he can do soo much in one teamslot yet has a ton of pokes that can check aegislash. Sure aegi is scary but it has four moveslot syndrome and almost always run at least two of the three king shield shadowball and shadow sneak. He is versatile but very predicatable in a sense. There might be no counters to aegislash but a lot of pokemon due a good job of checking him and beat him if you switch into the right move sure there are 50/50s but thats the same with a lot of other pokes if their were no 50/50s in a game of pokemon then it wouldnt be competitive or fun for that matter. Mixed wall umbreon counters most aegi sets and can check if it sets up to +2 which is pretty amazing but umbreon isnt used that much because he is often dead weight other than that. I see a lot of negative aspects coming from a potential ban especially with the new ORAS coming around the corner maybe we should wait until these new games come out before and the meta shifts before we decide whether aegi is borked as something like new megas could drastically affect the way aegis fit into the new ORAS meta. A suspect now less than four months after before we will have new shiny toys to play with does not make sense especially with something that isnt broken just overcentralizing as we will have a new meta before the year ends. To conclude aegi is a metagame defining poke but has been adapted by players in teambuilding and in playing against it to be handled fairly well next we have a ORAS coming out giving us new potential aegi checks and counters in the form of new mega pokes.
This part of the argument makes what you have to say not really credible. When you use the "Oh it won't preform that well in Ubers" as an argument it makes no sense. Ubers is a banlist for shit that is broken in the main tier, called OU. Its usage in Ubers doesn't give it grounds to say, "Oh, yeah you are right, it wont be good in ubers, better not ban it"
I agree. Btw in Ubers is quite used as a Xerneas check.
This and Aegislash is viable in ubers, its ranked B on their viability ranking list
Well I don't play in Ubers, so I don't know how viable it'd be, I only play in OU. If it's just as broken in Ubers, then I'd say let it be banned everywhere, but considering most suspects have been moved to Ubers and not outright banned, I'm just going from memory.
I personally can see why there is a reason for why it should be suspected, but at the same time I feel as if people arguments are not that strong. Yes it is a good mon, but saying "You don't know the set" is really just a poor argument. There are a lot of Pokemon that can run multiple sets. Yeah sure they might not have the offensive presence as Aegislash, but nonetheless, you can't use that. Predicting is part of the game, and I feel like when you eliminate these type of situations, you make it so that you rely even more on team matchup rather than actually making plays. Until I see an actual argument that is compelling I say it stays.
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