np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[ThinkNice]

Aegislash is so easily countered it's Laughable. The physical variants are shut down easily by Sableye, albeit Sableye is rare, Prankster Will-O-Wisp is a hard counter to it. Mandibuzz is also a hard counter to Aegislash as well, considering it resists it's Ghost Stab, and can Roost and Foul Play spam. Special and Mixed Variants are harder to counter, but fast ground types, normal types with Ground/Fire/Ghost moves stop Shadow Ball in its tracks. Sub+Toxic Aegislash is beaten by Steel Types, namely Heatran and Excadrill. Aegislash is in no way broken. While it has fantastic everything, it's not hard to find a direct counter to all of the sets it commonly runs. Also, I think Aegislash will be absolutely wrecked if it is banned to Ubers, having to share the battle grounds with the likes of Mega Gengar, Blaziken, Kyurem B, Groudon, and Ho-Oh to name a few. Sashed Deoxys-Attack can live a Shadow sneak if it's sash isn't broken and kill with a Dark Pulse or Knock Off. Mega Gengar takes an unboosted Shadow Sneak and kills with a Shadow Ball. (calcs) 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 194-230 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (against MAX Specially Defensive Aegislash, never seen) 252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. There is no reason why Aegislash should be banned, as it will be easily outclassed in Ubers and isn't broken in OU as it is. I think people are calling for this suspect test since they are just tired of being outplayed by people who are good with Aegislash and losing to it, while they get beaten when they use Aegislash. I vote against banning Aegislash

Having to pull out Mandibuzz and Sableye is not working in Aegislash's favor. Nobody is saying there aren't any counters to Aegislash. A Pokémon is not defined an Uber because it has no counters. The rest of your argument is arguing about how Aegislash won't perform well in Ubers, which is completely irrelevant as well. You don't see many MegaLuke's running around in Ubers, well we obviously shouldn't have banned it guys. You ban Pokémon based on the metagame they are in, not the metagame they'll be in after the ban.

Not to say it isn't true that Aegislash is bad in Ubers, it has certain niches and can actually perform pretty well.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Also, I think Aegislash will be absolutely wrecked if it is banned to Ubers, having to share the battle grounds with the likes of Mega Gengar, Blaziken, Kyurem B, Groudon, and Ho-Oh to name a few. Sashed Deoxys-Attack can live a Shadow sneak if it's sash isn't broken and kill with a Dark Pulse or Knock Off. Mega Gengar takes an unboosted Shadow Sneak and kills with a Shadow Ball. (calcs) 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 194-230 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (against MAX Specially Defensive Aegislash, never seen) 252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. There is no reason why Aegislash should be banned, as it will be easily outclassed in Ubers and isn't broken in OU as it is. I think people are calling for this suspect test since they are just tired of being outplayed by people who are good with Aegislash and losing to it, while they get beaten when they use Aegislash. I vote against banning Aegislash

Just wanted to ignore the rest of that post and focus on the ubers issue.

A Pokemon's viability in Ubers does not have any weight on whether or not it should be banned from the tier, just as a pokemon in UU/RU/NU's viability in the upper tier has no influence on whether or not it should be BL/BL2/BL3. If you had been reading this thread you would have seen that stated time and time again.

 

[Toljik]

Aegislash is so easily countered it's Laughable. The physical variants are shut down easily by Sableye, albeit Sableye is rare, Prankster Will-O-Wisp is a hard counter to it. Mandibuzz is also a hard counter to Aegislash as well.

People said the exact same thing about Mega Kangaskhan: "Sableye counters it". It's not a balanced Pokemon if only two OU-worthy Pokemon beat it consistently.

This is however NOT true if you are a set-up sweeper because the Aegislash-user now risks letting your sweeper become unbeatable. I had alot of these situation as a Charizard-X player and Aegislash-user. I know that Flare Blitz definitely will kill me and Kings Shield is my only way to prevent that, but letting him dragondance instead going for the kill? The burden is on both side and not in Aegislash's favor at all. And like every prediction: If you predicted wrong, you are at a bad spot. If you predicted right, you have the advantage.
I don't think that this is bad. Aegislash is probably the MOST COMPETITIVE Pokemon ever existed. The main problem everybody has is that it has only one difference which makes it unique from other coinflips: It's not a switch you have to predict, it's a move (Kings Shield) and most people think that this is broken or not healthy. While I lost sometimes because I didn't use Kings Shield I also lost because I predicted a switch. That is normal and happens every day.

Like you said yourself, it's still a coinflip. It's no different from Swagger - instead of hoping that the RNG keeps you from hitting yourself, you have to hope that the other player's choice matches yours. There's no predicting whether the Charizard will use Flare Blitz or Dragon Dance, or whether the Aegislash attacks or uses King's Shield, because each option is equally correct unless you can read minds. A noob player and a pro player are almost equally likely to win in that particular situation.

 

[Synchronation]

But it's still a coinflip. It's no different from Swagger - instead of hoping that the RNG keeps you from hitting yourself, you have to hope that the other player's choice matches yours. There's no predicting whether the Charizard will use Flare Blitz or Dragon Dance, or whether the Aegislash attacks or uses King's Shield.

Swagger is ALOT different. With Swagger you have to rely on RNG which is a true coinflip.
Kings Shield isn't like Swagger. It is a coinflip more like a switch. I mentioned this scenario many times:
Mega-Manectric against a Gyrados, your opponent has a healthy Garchomp in his team.
What do you do? You have a 50% chance to hit Gyrados with Voltswitch/Thunderbolt and a 50% chance to do nothing to Garchomp. Will you use Thunderbolt OR do you predict the switch and use HP Ice? If you guess wrong you have a problem, if not you are fine. Same with Kings Shield.

I really understand the whole point of 50/50, but without a good argument why THIS 50/50 is so different from normal switches which can cost you the battle too I just can see this as a point at all.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Viability in a tier that is can only be used in should definitely be a thing to consider, since you're taking one of the best OU mons there is, and making it one of the lower class Ubers mons. If something can't be used where it's been put, why keep it there. Lets say you have a person that is the best player on your hypothetical sports teams. He is the best in all the league, but then he gets put into a league with people who were better than in his old league. He isn't allowed to compete in the league he was in, and he isn't a star like he used to be. So he doesn't get any playing time, and he falls out of mention. I think this is what will happen to Aegislash if he gets banned to Ubers. He'll be outclassed by lots of other Mons and may fall out of favor. True he may have some niches, but that's all it is. Aegislash will become the NU of Ubers, since a lot of NU Mons have the capabilities to play in OU, they just have flaws to them and they're outclassed by other mons. Don't make Aegislash lose his Star Status, as he isn't TOO good for the rest of OU, since there are quite a few mons that can handle him.

Judging by your 3 clearly misguided/ignorant posts and the confidence in which you are speaking with, I am going to assume you are a troll. On the offchance you are not, I will do you a favor and tell you to drop the ubers argument because we do not care at all how Aegislash does in ubers, ubers is a ban list for OU, that is all.

 

[HaxMiner]

People said the exact same thing about Mega Kangaskhan: "Sableye counters it". It's not a balanced Pokemon if only two OU-worthy Pokemon beat it consistently.

Mega Kangaskhan has the ability to break through focus sashes and sturdy. Mega Kangaskhan isn't weak to Foul Play. Aegislash has more than two counter who beat it consistently. Excadrill beats it rather easily, Charizard Y, Ferrothorn can take everything bar a Sacred Sword, and Leech Seed it. While Ferrothorn isn't a hard counter, it can still drain Aegislash of lots of its health with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs. Hell, even Alomomola is a good counter to the Physical Variants, since it can burn Aegislash with Scald and Wish Protect Burn Stall it. Lanturn and Rotom-W can easily wall the Specially defensive set, as both take Flash Cannons and Shadow Balls with ease. Aegislash has many OU and NU/RU mons that can deal with it, since once you know the set, it's easy to switch in an appropriate counter without losing a pokemon.

 

[ZeroEnd]

Viability in a tier that is can only be used in should definitely be a thing to consider, since you're taking one of the best OU mons there is, and making it one of the lower class Ubers mons. If something can't be used where it's been put, why keep it there. Lets say you have a person that is the best player on your hypothetical sports teams. He is the best in all the league, but then he gets put into a league with people who were better than in his old league. He isn't allowed to compete in the league he was in, and he isn't a star like he used to be. So he doesn't get any playing time, and he falls out of mention. I think this is what will happen to Aegislash if he gets banned to Ubers. He'll be outclassed by lots of other Mons and may fall out of favor. True he may have some niches, but that's all it is. Aegislash will become the NU of Ubers, since a lot of NU Mons have the capabilities to play in OU, they just have flaws to them and they're outclassed by other mons. Don't make Aegislash lose his Star Status, as he isn't TOO good for the rest of OU, since there are quite a few mons that can handle him.

First off, we're not talking about Ubers. We're talking about Aegislash's brokeness in OU. How well Aegislash does in Ubers haves NOTHING to do with this thread whatsoever. Second off, Ubers is more of a banlist then a tier.

 

[TengenAce]

Aegislash isn't broken in OU, and I've never heard of Ubers being a banlist than a tier. It may just be because I'm new to this and I'm trying to get into the community, but obviously me stating my opinions and trying to show why I think Aegislash shouldn't be banned makes people mad. Obviously the community doesn't appreciate newcomers trying to learn and get into the community, as I've been greeted with hostility for trying to state my opinions.

Ubers has always been a banlist rather than a tier. It became a format able to be played after a few generation's worth of mons got sent there. Even though you can play it as a tier, it is always a banlist first, just as BL is a banlist from UU, BL2 from RU, and so on.
I also do not think that Aegislash should be banned, however some of the reasons you stated before are misguided or just wrong. You understand the difference between a counter and a check, yes? A counter is a Poke that can safely switch in on most sets run by a certain Pokemon, and then threaten said Poke out. For instance, Charizard-Y is more of a check, something that can threaten out a Poke when safely switch in, because it doesn't appreciate taking a Shadow Ball to the face, and is almost certain to die if coming in on rocks. Yes, there are some Pokemon out there able to switch in on a decent amount of sets and threaten 'slash accordingly, but only having a few niche counters shows a problem.
And for the record, how well Aegislash would perform in Ubers is completely irrelevant. As someone stated earlier, Mega Lucario isn't used much up there. But does that mean it should be unbanned and brought back to OU? You'd have to be out of your mind to think that's a fair deal. But I digress...

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Viability in a tier that is can only be used in should definitely be a thing to consider, since you're taking one of the best OU mons there is, and making it one of the lower class Ubers mons. If something can't be used where it's been put, why keep it there. Lets say you have a person that is the best player on your hypothetical sports teams. He is the best in all the league, but then he gets put into a league with people who were better than in his old league. He isn't allowed to compete in the league he was in, and he isn't a star like he used to be. So he doesn't get any playing time, and he falls out of mention. I think this is what will happen to Aegislash if he gets banned to Ubers. He'll be outclassed by lots of other Mons and may fall out of favor. True he may have some niches, but that's all it is. Aegislash will become the NU of Ubers, since a lot of NU Mons have the capabilities to play in OU, they just have flaws to them and they're outclassed by other mons. Don't make Aegislash lose his Star Status, as he isn't TOO good for the rest of OU, since there are quite a few mons that can handle him.

Ubers is a ban list first, tier second.... That's the way it has always been, the way it always will be, and the way it is right now for this suspect.

Not everything is viable in some tier. Thats just the way it is. And btw, Aegis is viable in ubers. You act like the only mons you can use in Ubers are ones banned from OU. Aegis is used rn as a Xerneas counter.

 

[Subject 18]

HaxMiner, it's doesn't matter how good Aegislash is in Ubers, we ban Pokemon for being too good or too unhealthy for OU. If it's too good for OU we ban it. Nothing else to it. I understand your reasoning because of that mindset when I was new, then I realized that this wouldn't make OU a better tier if things that are too good for OU but not good enough for ubers allowed. Think of it like this take something like Deoxys-Normal. It's not great or really usable in ubers, but that doesn't mean we drop it to OU because ubers is hostile towards it. It's that same logic here. Like others have said ubers is a ban list first and a tier second.

Anyways, this is irrelevant to the discussion. Move on from this topic. Thank you.

 

[HyruleWarrior]

Aegislash should not be banned. It isn't unstoppable, it is just as susceptible to any status conditions as any other steel type. It relies on items to be useful, and because of this, a super effective Knock off can destroy it`s set ups/recovery. In it's blade form, an earthquake from many popular Pokemon can KO it relativity easily.

There is a reason there is an OU tier to begin with, because it is for people whom wish to use Over Used Pokemon. Just because there are a lot of people who like to use a Pokemon in OU doesn't mean it should be banned. Banning a Pokemon just because some people can not 2HKO or handle it right away is just like being a coward, and avoiding a problem, or like whining like a child because they didn't get what they wanted. Banning should be for unfair or easily abused things, which is why Evasion moves are banned, and bans should be few and far between. You don't see Gamefreak or Nintendo banning non-legendary pokemon very often. Legendaries like Lugia, Deoxys, and Mewtwo, are (as far as I know) banned by tournaments like VGC format.

(side note) A Gliscor with Protect, Knock Off and Earthquake can do a lot of damage or outright destroy an Aegislash.

Aegishash is weak to Fire, Ground, Dark and Ghost, all of which are highly used in OU, examples being, Charizard, Gliscor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Talonflame and Tyranitar. Many other Pokemon of different types can learn popular Ground, Fire, Dark and Ghost moves like Earthquake, Flamethrower, and Knock Off and Shadow Sneak respectively.

Simply put, Aegislash is not broken, can be stopped by many types, and is just a very popular pokemon. OU is called Over Used for a reason, and Aegislash is over used, but not game breaking like spamming Double Team and Spore. You cannot balance a meta-game by banning everything everyone wants to ban.

If this continues (The consistent bans) much longer, I may seriously consider giving up on the Pokemon meta-game completely.

 

[inferzaken]

Simply put, Aegislash is not broken, can be stopped by many types, and is just a very popular pokemon. OU is called Over Used for a reason, and Aegislash is over used, but not game breaking like spamming Double Team and Spore. .

The debate is not on whether or not it is broken or unstoppable, it is that it is overcenteralizing. We all know aegislash isnt broken. In my opinion, it should be banned because it is overcenteralizing and is able to beat a lot of its counters checks with specific movesets. sub toxic beats stall, head smash beats mandibuzz, etc.

 

[WebBowser]

Finally I have some time again...



Depends on your Pokemon. CB-Talonflame would have a problem and the favor in this case is definitely on Aegislash's side (the main reason why not many people uses CB-Talonflame anymore). If your opponent has a Pokemon that can ONLY attack Aegislash then the Kings Shield is not only obvious it is just the best answer.
This is however NOT true if you are a set-up sweeper because the Aegislash-user now risks letting your sweeper become unbeatable. I had alot of these situation as a Charizard-X player and Aegislash-user. I know that Flare Blitz definitely will kill me and Kings Shield is my only way to prevent that, but letting him dragondance instead going for the kill? The burden is on both side and not in Aegislash's favor at all. And like every prediction: If you predicted wrong, you are at a bad spot. If you predicted right, you have the advantage.
I don't think that this is bad. Aegislash is probably the MOST COMPETITIVE Pokemon ever existed. The main problem everybody has is that it has only one difference which makes it unique from other coinflips: It's not a switch you have to predict, it's a move (Kings Shield) and most people think that this is broken or not healthy. While I lost sometimes because I didn't use Kings Shield I also lost because I predicted a switch. That is normal and happens every day.

I agree with most of the above, but I do not think zard-x is the greatest counter-example for the following reasons...

1. Zard-X has one of the strongest fire STAB moves in OU (and fire happens to be super effective against aegi), if there was ever a physical mon to have a positive matchup versus aegi, it's prolly this guy. For the vast majority of the rest of OU, especially on the physical side, being able to OHKO aegi at +0 is merely a pipe dream.

2. Due to zard-x's numerous positive traits as a sweeper, I think it is safe to say that zard-x qualifies as potentially broken. Therefore, it is within the realm of possibility that this is a case of broken-checking-broken, which is undesirable for a tier. If Zard-X were aegis' only viable check or counter, then the anti-ban's side would be looking rather weak.

"Would" being the operative phrase here. I happen to know that bisharp is a pretty good aegis check and mandibuzz is the closest thing to an aegis counter in OU, but 3 mons, one of which being potentially broken, isn't good enough for me. If something like, say, azumaril could force a similar 50/50 I may reconsider, but azu cannot.

calcs:

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-133 (34.5 - 41%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

This is what I mean by "lopsided 50-50s". If azumaril guesses "right" and waterfalls when aegi tries to attack, aegi does a fair bit more damage then azu. Obviously if azu guesses wrong and hits a KS or belly drums on a shadow ball, you will prolly wind up with a very dead azumaril, or at least a force out. As far as I am aware, no other mon can 1v1 azu in this matter without a type advantage of some sort. If aegi KSs on a BD then you're in trouble, obviously, but even then double KSs are not unheard of.

For what it's worth, in this particular situation, aegis needs to be running min speed to under speed azu, but it can be applied to many dangerous OU sweepers that lack an SE STAB move (coverage usually doesn't cover it.)

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Aegislash should not be banned. It isn't unstoppable, it is just as susceptible to any status conditions as any other steel type. It relies on items to be useful, and because of this, a super effective Knock off can destroy it`s set ups/recovery. In it's blade form, an earthquake from many popular Pokemon can KO it relativity easily.

There is a reason there is an OU tier to begin with, because it is for people whom wish to use Over Used Pokemon. Just because there are a lot of people who like to use a Pokemon in OU doesn't mean it should be banned. Banning a Pokemon just because some people can not 2HKO or handle it right away is just like being a coward, and avoiding a problem, or like whining like a child because they didn't get what they wanted. Banning should be for unfair or easily abused things, which is why Evasion moves are banned, and bans should be few and far between. You don't see Gamefreak or Nintendo banning non-legendary pokemon very often. Legendaries like Lugia, Deoxys, and Mewtwo, are (as far as I know) banned by tournaments like VGC format.

(side note) A Gliscor with Protect, Knock Off and Earthquake can do a lot of damage or outright destroy an Aegislash.

Aegishash is weak to Fire, Ground, Dark and Ghost, all of which are highly used in OU, examples being, Charizard, Gliscor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Talonflame and Tyranitar. Many other Pokemon of different types can learn popular Ground, Fire, Dark and Ghost moves like Earthquake, Flamethrower, and Knock Off and Shadow Sneak respectively.

Simply put, Aegislash is not broken, can be stopped by many types, and is just a very popular pokemon. OU is called Over Used for a reason, and Aegislash is over used, but not game breaking like spamming Double Team and Spore. You cannot balance a meta-game by banning everything everyone wants to ban.

If this continues (The consistent bans) much longer, I may seriously consider giving up on the Pokemon meta-game completely.

Name which one of Charizard, Gliscor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Talonflame or Tyranitar want to switch in on Aegislash's STABs or one of its coverage moves. That's right. Absolutely none of them. Let me elaborate further. No matter what mon you use to counter Aegislash, like Mandibuzz, it has the coverage to take it out. Aegislash adapts to the changes it forces, which makes it a very centralizing force, requiring 2-3 checks on a team in order to deal with all of its possible moves. Until you know EXACTLY what moves it's running, its safest to assume its running all of them. And here's a list of moves Aegislash runs:

Shadow Ball
Flash Cannon
Sacred Sword
King's Shield
Head Smash
Shadow Sneak
HP Ice(getting popular because SDef Gliscor is becoming popular, which is one of the metagame changes Aegislash has forced)
Iron Head
Swords Dance(Safe to assume not in conjunction with King's Shield if against a competent player)
Autotomize(rare but still exists, often in conjunction with WP)
Substitute
Toxic

and only 4 of the moves give a clue as to what other moves it's running. And thats not to cover the possible items!
Life Orb
Leftovers
Air Balloon
Weakness Policy(very rare at higher level play)
Spooky Plate

So as you can see, Aegislash is VERY versatile. There will be no true counter to all of its sets, the very changes it forces can be adapted to with a simple change in moveslots. I do not think Aegislash is broken, I think it is a very centralizing force in the metagame. No, I will go so far to say it IS the metagame.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

The debate is not on whether or not it is broken or unstoppable, it is that it is overcenteralizing. We all know aegislash isnt broken. In my opinion, it should be banned because it is overcenteralizing and is able to beat a lot of its counters checks with specific movesets. sub toxic beats stall, head smash beats mandibuzz, etc.

Aegislash is overcentralizing, I don't think there is any doubt about that. But I don't think that is a reason for a ban. The meta revolves around it, so what? A lot of things check it, it's not that hard to beat, it doesn't win entire matches just by being on a team.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

HM mid ladder thoughts :
Pre-suspect I was total anti-ban, heck I was about to propose lowering it over in the Viability thread, but after reading some posts here, I realize this thing is definitely broken. No it will not sweep teams with ease. It won't wall most of the meta. It doesn't even have insane support. Instead, it has all of these qualities. It can tank supereffective hits, hit incredibly hard, is able to pursuit trap, wall break, you name it. Basically every game you use it in it is always helpful.

In my opinion a pokemon does not have to be able to completely sweep teams, wall most things, or even be really good support to be broken. If a pokemon has as much influence over the meta as aegislash does, then it is definitely over centralizing. Aegis can basically fit on on any team. Stall: Its sub toxic is really good. Offense: it's a great spinblocker and wallbreaker. Rain: It loves weakened fire. Sand: It can take fighting attacks aimed at tyranitar and excadrill. Trick Room: Its slow enough to be able to sweep well. Balance: It fits in perfectly and can run any set.

Here is a list of pokemon negatively affected by Aegislash's presence: Keldeo, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Gengar, Latias, Latios, Terrakion, Breloom, Kyruem-B, Scolipede, Mega Garevoir, Scizor, Mega Medicham, Slowbro, Tornadus-T, Heracross-Mega, Lucario, Mew, Sylveon, Mega Alakazam, Staraptor, Alakazam, Espeon, Haxorous, Togekiss, Starmie, Mega Banette, Celebi, Exploud, Gourgeist, Porygon2, Tornadus, Wobbuffet, Gardevoir, Hawlucha, Kyruem, Roserade, Slowking, Mega Abomasnow, Cloyster, Cofagrigus, Froslass, Jirachi, Meloetta, Reunciulus, Noivern.

Now you can argue how much some of these will be affected or if they are even any good, but they will all appreciate Aegislash being gone. With a pokemon being able to affect so many other pokemon how can it not be overcentralizing? If it just sticks on an airballoon several other things hate it also.

It has also lead to many other pokemon being run to counter this thing, such as Rhyperior, earlier this gen, Then SPD Hippodown later on. Its only 100% counters seem to be SPD Amoongus and Gliscor. Mandibuzz and Chestnaught do well most of the time, but both can be beaten. Bisharp?-Dies to sacred sword pretty easily. Also lol I heard someone mention Chansey? Lol the best it can do it paralyze it it doesn't counter Aegislash in the least bit, instead its the exact opposite. Sure its relatively easily revenged, but that means nothing lol.

Sure its weak to 4 common types, so are a lot of ubers that should mean nothing on its ban status. That and with its bulk it can survive all but the strongest of them.

Its King shield lets it beat things it should not be beating: Example Tyranitar, Zard X. I know some of you wanted it banned, but honestly its not happening. We didn't chose to ban parts of other pokes, we aren't going to ban part of this one.

So far my suspect laddering experience has been quite fun and very diverse, I'm quite enjoying this aegislash free meta.

I'm a stall player and its not like its impossible to win with stall in the new ladder. Mew, Cresslia, Slowbro, Sabeleye all handle Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, handled by Gliscor and clefable. Mega Gard is tough to deal with, but Chansey and other cans at least toxic it to kill it. That and they aren't that really better wall breakers than Mega Mawile or Lando. Also you don't have to worry about dealing with Aegis either.

Also every other ban this gen has been helpful to stall. Bans of Mega Kang, DeoxysN, Blaziken, and Mega Lucario removed a threatening sweeper. Bans of DeoxysS, DeoxysD, and Mega Gengar got rid of offensive support mons. Nerf of Baton Pass killed a strategy that wrecked Stall. Only ban that really didn't help stall that much was Swagger. One ban that will sort of hurt stall won't be that bad. If it does really hurt stall, the mons hurting stall will be banned then.

Its time for the King of OU to be dethroned. Ban Aegislash

 

[inferzaken]

Aegislash is overcentralizing, I don't think there is any doubt about that. But I don't think that is a reason for a ban. The meta revolves around it, so what? A lot of things check it, it's not that hard to beat, it doesn't win entire matches just by being on a team.

You have to learn why you ban something. A good metagame, as posted in this thread, is one that has diversity. You know what stops diversity? Aegislash.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

You have to learn why you ban something. A good metagame, as posted in this thread, is one that has diversity. You know what stops diversity? Aegislash.

I'm not in the mood for looking for the posts, but as I've seen multiple people here saying before, the true goal of the meta is competitiveness. Diversity is just a sympton of that, but shouldn't be the final goal.

 

[Giometry]

Name which one of Charizard, Gliscor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Talonflame or Tyranitar want to switch in on Aegislash's STABs or one of its coverage moves. That's right. Absolutely none of them. Let me elaborate further. No matter what mon you use to counter Aegislash, like Mandibuzz, it has the coverage to take it out. Aegislash adapts to the changes it forces, which makes it a very centralizing force, requiring 2-3 checks on a team in order to deal with all of its possible moves. Until you know EXACTLY what moves it's running, its safest to assume its running all of them. And here's a list of moves Aegislash runs:

Shadow Ball
Flash Cannon Only really useful for Clefable
Sacred Sword
King's Shield
Head Smash- Head Smash is very subpar and is NOT VIABLE as it involves a pivot killing itself to deal signifigant damage.
Shadow Sneak
HP Ice(getting popular because SDef Gliscor is becoming popular, which is one of the metagame changes Aegislash has forced) Aegi did NOT force SpDef Gliscor, Landorus Did. Also still not that popular.
Iron Head Again Only Clefable
Swords Dance(Safe to assume not in conjunction with King's Shield if against a competent player) SD is generally not even used by a competent player
Autotomize(rare but still exists, often in conjunction with WP) To be perfectly honest the automize set is a joke
Substitute
Toxic I will give you the sub toxic set though (its pretty sweet if i do say so myself)

and only 4 of the moves give a clue as to what other moves it's running. And thats not to cover the possible items!
Life Orb
Leftovers
Air Balloon Really falling in popularity after the Deo bans and is really only useful for spinblocking Exca which isnt really worth it anymore
Weakness Policy(Nonexistent at higher level play) Fixed
Spooky Plate

So as you can see, Aegislash is VERY versatile. There will be no true counter to all of its sets, the very changes it forces can be adapted to with a simple change in moveslots. I do not think Aegislash is broken, I think it is a very centralizing force in the metagame. No, I will go so far to say it IS the metagame.

Replies in Bold.
I will agree with you that Aegi is centralizing (i mean look at how many mons are unviable just because of Aegi), i will also agree that it is not broken as it really only has Pseudo-Versatility. No matter what switches it makes Aegislash has always been just a great pivot and is nothing more than that (SD is a joke, Automize is a bigger joke, and WP should never be uttered in a serious argument ever).
Aegislash is no where near broken and shouldn't even be suspect worthy as it is nothing more than a pivot. Its versatility is highly over exaggerated and while it has the option to get past its counters 90% of the time pokemon like Charizard, Garchomp, and Landorus have no qualms about smashing it to bits. Aegislash is easily checked due to its common weaknesses and an over reliance on kings shield to not be destroyed as easily as a paper bag that just went through a flood and got hit with an air strike.

Also to inferzaken, I would like to ask how Aegislash gets rid of diversity. It may be centralizing but most players in this metagame will have an aegislash check, or even a counter, on their team without building for it. For a pokemon to restrict diversity it would have to be overcentralizing to a point where you would have to teambuild around beating it. Aegislash does not fit this criteria.

In conclusion: not as versatile as people seem to think; easily checked; plays only one role effectively; does not fit the criteria layed out for a broken offensive mon, defensive mon, or support mon. DO NOT BAN

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

(i mean look at how many mons are unviable just because of Aegi)

Which ones? Serious question. Cause while there's a few mons that'd rise in viability without Aegis (Cham, Garde, etc.) I can only thing of a handful that have been rendered almost irrelevant by it. Like all I can think of is Starmie (as as spinner it just can't get through Aegislash reliably,) maybe Jirachi (but it has a bunch of other problems) and maybe Alakazam (see Jirachi.)

 

[Jukain]

Replies in Bold.
I will agree with you that Aegi is centralizing (i mean look at how many mons are unviable just because of Aegi), i will also agree that it is not broken as it really only has Pseudo-Versatility. No matter what switches it makes Aegislash has always been just a great pivot and is nothing more than that (SD is a joke, Automize is a bigger joke, and WP should never be uttered in a serious argument ever).
Aegislash is no where near broken and shouldn't even be suspect worthy as it is nothing more than a pivot. Its versatility is highly over exaggerated and while it has the option to get past its counters 90% of the time pokemon like Charizard, Garchomp, and Landorus have no qualms about smashing it to bits. Aegislash is easily checked due to its common weaknesses and an over reliance on kings shield to not be destroyed as easily as a paper bag that just went through a flood and got hit with an air strike.

Also to inferzaken, I would like to ask how Aegislash gets rid of diversity. It may be centralizing but most players in this metagame will have an aegislash check, or even a counter, on their team without building for it. For a pokemon to restrict diversity it would have to be overcentralizing to a point where you would have to teambuild around beating it. Aegislash does not fit this criteria.

In conclusion: not as versatile as people seem to think; easily checked; plays only one role effectively; does not fit the criteria layed out for a broken offensive mon, defensive mon, or support mon. DO NOT BAN

Except SD a a set recognized and used by high-level players, and Head Smash is used by high-level players? Please, don't make comments like that when you don't know what you're saying.

Plays one role effectively? No way. Lefties 3 attacks KS (general purpose attacker/pivot), SubToxic (staller), fast LO (breaker), and SD (sweeper/breaker) all fill different purposes.

There is no criteria for what is broken in an offensive, defensive, or support mon. The clauses provide a reference but HAVE ABSOLUTELY /NOTHING/ to do with why things are banned.

What you're saying is to an extreme extent, but not even untrue. You need 2-3 Aegislash answers per team. That's not being forced to teambuild around it?

---

If the anti-ban side cannot properly address Aldaron's arguments, again, you're arguing for nothing because whatever 'burden of proof' has been provided.

 

[The Peasident]

I recently read an old Smogon forum about the definition of the constantly used term "overcentralization" and I thought this quote from Expeditious was a very good explanation of what it means.

"Overcentralization: Are you using ______? Do you have something to deal with ______? If the answer to one or both of these is no, can you still win reliably, all else being equal? If you have to use something and/or its counters to win, there is overcentralization. Merely being popular, or even powerful is not overcentralization. Even being common is not overcentralization, as long as it can still be beaten without specific counters."

Heres the link to the thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tralization-what-do-they-really-mean.3447423/

If you fill in the above blanks with Aegislash, the second one in particular, it becomes fairly obvious that it fits the bill to be considered overcentralizing. Even its "counters" can be beaten with certain sets (i.e. sub toxic for Mandibuzz and max speed for Bisharp to name a few). If you don't run a direct counter to Aegislash, your chance of winning is significantly lower than it would be otherwise. Now in no way am I arguing that Aegislash is unbeatable. All I am saying is that it's sets can be easily tailored to take care of whatever it needs to take care of. Genesect wasn't unbeatable either, but it centralized the metagame to the point that it wasn't healthy, just like Aegislash. That is why I believe Aegislash should be banned.

Also, to the people who argue that Aegislash shouldn't be uber because it wouldn't do well in ubers, please understand that ubers is not a tier but a ban list for OU, similar to the way BL is UU's ban list.

Anyway, these are just my two cents on this whole situation. Feel free to disagree in a constructive way. I am open to opinions if a more valid argument is presented

 

[Tainic]

I'll probably repeat the same thing as the 27 other pages of opinions says but w/e :

I'd lean toward a ban tbh, as there's a ton of reasons why Aegislash is just too much for the OU :

-First - but not the least - it's stats. 60/150/150/150/150/60, even if they are a pseudo-720 BST, these stats are just, I mean, wow. You know which Pokemon has Stats that can compare in OU ? That's right, KyuB, but you know what are one of the main reasons why KyuB ended up in OU ?
-The answer - and my second point - is the fact that KyuB had a not so great movepool to boot, and also a Defensive Typing that is - let's be honest - not that great, 2 problems Aegislash does not have, I'm not going to compare them, as both are different Pokemons, with different sets and all, but still, Aegislash pretty much has Uber-like attributes : He is unpredictable (I mean, you're forced to either get one of your Mons dented or killed to guess which set it's running.) AND has a good typing : On the offensive side, thanks to the dope-Ghost-STAB, or on the defensive one, courtesy of its Steel type (God I can't imagine what would've happened if that thing was there before the Steel nerf.) Do I also need to mention that King's Shield makes him a pain in the ass to kill for a lot of Pokemon in OU ? He is weak to only two priorities (With one that can be partially countered by some mindgames.), making Bisharp the only reliable Priority user able to deal with him, and even then, he has to be careful about Sacred Sword.
-Finally, it's overcentralizing the meta, tons of Pokemons aren't OU (REST IN PEACE STARMIE.) because of him, and some are as used as they are today because Aegislash exists. (My guess would be that Mandibuzz would be a lot less used if Aegislash wasn't so present in the meta. (Don't get me wrong, it deserves to be OU, but her ability to counter most of Aegislash's sets helps it in that regard.))

So what do we have there ? Something that has uber-like attributes in the form of raw power AND bulkyness. That's also impredictable and can deal with most of his would-be-counters by running another set, (SubToxik for Mandibuzz, for example.) I don't think I have much more to add to say that, yes, Aegislash deserves to be banned.


But now let's think of another way.

What if Aegislash did not have King's Shield ? What if he either had to switch or be killed after a single attack ? What if a lot of his matchups weren't won because of KS ? Without KS, Aegislash pretty much has a decrease of 300 in his BST, and makes him either a Glass Cannon with the ability to easily come on the field, or a very bulky Pokemon easily taunted out, would that be broken or over centralizing ? I don't really know, but I do believe it deserves a shot.

tl;dr I'd say Aegislash, in its current state deserves a ban, but that the problem does not come from the Pokemon itself, but from King's Shield, giving him a favorable matchup against a major part of the OU Metagame and giving him the ability to switch between the role of a frail hard hitting Pokemon, a bulky - still hard hitting - Pokemon, and a Defensive Pokemon which can hold its ground with that still amazing 150 offense. (If given the correct EV Spread/Items.)

 

[Tainic]

I do believe that if banning a signature move can enable a, let's be honest, very interesting Pokemon to fare well in OU, it can/should be banned, I don't know if Aegislash is broken without KS, but I think it's worth giving it a shot tbh.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Except SD a a set recognized and used by high-level players, and Head Smash is used by high-level players? Please, don't make comments like that when you don't know what you're saying.

Plays one role effectively? No way. Lefties 3 attacks KS (general purpose attacker/pivot), SubToxic (staller), fast LO (breaker), and SD (sweeper/breaker) all fill different purposes.

There is no criteria for what is broken in an offensive, defensive, or support mon. The clauses provide a reference but HAVE ABSOLUTELY /NOTHING/ to do with why things are banned.

What you're saying is to an extreme extent, but not even untrue. You need 2-3 Aegislash answers per team. That's not being forced to teambuild around it?

---

If the anti-ban side cannot properly address Aldaron's arguments, again, you're arguing for nothing because whatever 'burden of proof' has been provided.

I'm more than a little confused on why you keep bringing up Aldaron's post. It was well written and hard to argue because he explained his view on things and his criteria for something to be ban worthy. Nobody's arguing his points (except the 50/50 one, but I'm cool with agreeing to disagree on that one), because he addressed them as they were: controversial and debatable criteria to see if something is ban worthy. Here's the most important part imo:

if we want a healthy metagame, we have to ensure that we don't tolerate threats that have a very low cost to use and also require too much specialization to deal with.

He showed very easily the low-risk/high-reward part, but he even admitted that it's debatable if it requires too much specialization to deal with.

Needing potentially 2 checks per team isn't that big of a deal when you realize how easy they are to fit on a team, so I personally don't think so, but like he said:

You are obviously welcome to disagree, but I am merely stating were I am coming from so you can see what exactly the issue is for me.

Basically, I've given up trying to decide if Aegislash is really ban worthy. There's way too many biased arguments and different criteria being used, so I'm just going by Haunter's criteria here:

It's undeniable that Aegislash's presence in OU makes certain Pokemon less viable (Gardevoir/Medicham/Starmie) and certain others much more effective (Bisharp/Mandibuzz). In the end we're going to choose what metagame we like better, regardless of how 'broken' Aegislash actually is.

The suspect meta is total chaos, but it can only get better as people get used to different threats. The regular meta, while much better atm, only really has potential to get worse (as far as Aegislash is concerned) as his alternate sets become more popular and harder to predict.

I like the regular meta better, but recognize the suspect as potentially more healthy. Your posts in particular regarding how stall will adapt to the new threats make me think a ban may be better in the long run, but both posts I quoted clearly demonstrated this is a decision that everyone will have to make on their own through their experience on the ladder and the posts they read in the discussion. There really isn't that much to argue, really just discuss potential meta evolution and let people voice what they took away from it.