np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Zebstrika]

No, my point was only that any decent player is trying to out predict his opponent. Your exaggeration is what we call a 'straw man”. I never implied something so extreme. Nobody that makes all his predictions based on a single move is is a “decent player”. Still, since this upset you so, a “good player” (as you put it) will gather as much information from the beginning and throughout the match as possible. They will try to make a distinction between what information is relevant and what information must be disregarded and/or ignored. I gave examples of this in an earlier post, but I guess you were to fired up to just ask for my “proof”. No good player is going to allow themselves to be predicted with utmost certainty, but to say that they cannot be predicted is a joke. How does anyone play professional chess, professional poker, professional GO? I think such “patterns” produced by players are called tails. Even if it were the case that players were unpredictable wouldn't that mean that the entire meta is a series of 50/50's, and Aegislash just forces some special variant? I mean if that is the case then we can go ahead and throw that argument out, can't we? Atleast, someone can make a distinction between the 50/50's of all these unpredictable players and Aegislash. Of course, I wouldn't want to “straw man,”, so I will give you the benefit doubt and assume that you either did not mean that the meta is completely unpredictable or that you have in mind how Aegislash scenarios are relevantly different.

Players are not supposed to be predictable. If your opponent is being predictable, he is simply not a good player, and it is a pokemon's potential at top level play that determines its tier.

There is no advantage to having a pattern in your predictions, but it comes with the nasty disadvantage that your choice can be outplayed easily. Good players know that it is best to choose randomly (against another good player who could otherwise adapt to their patterns, anyways), even if it's not with 50/50 odds it should still be random.

And not everything is 50/50 odds. An extreme example is Scizor without Superpower vs Heatran. Both of you know heatran will predict Scizor to switch, fearing a fire move, and that will give Heatran a free turn to set up Stealth Rock. Yes, the Scizor player could predict this, and instead switch out using U-turn to get some damage in. But this is where the Skill comes in, where you can analyze the risk and reward. Scizor is better off hard switching almost all of the time, because it's worth being predictable if it means you guarantee Scizor's survival. It is not worth doing 8% damage to Heatran, even if you know you will probably win the prediction, because it is not worth the risk of losing Scizor. So that situation is more like a 99/1, because it's worth being predictable 99% of the time when the reward (keeping Scizor) far outweighs the reward U-turning (almost negligible chip damage).

Aegislash, vs contact attackers in particular, forces true 50/50s because the risk and reward for both players are very similar. If Aegislash's opponent attacks, they either will do big damage to Aegislash or give Aegislash the next turn free. If Aegislash's opponent doesn't attack, they either take big damage from Aegislash or that turn was free because Aegi used King's Shield. So the risk and reward for both options are very similar (free turn or big damage).

I made a more complete analysis a few pages back.

Also idk why you compared to Chess and Go, in those games you have full information about your opponent's choices by the time you make your move so there is no need to guess. Poker is more comparable to Pokemon, there is a big element in guessing and while risk/reward factors in, it is best to randomly bluff some times and not bluff other times so your opponents can't tell when your hand is as good as your bets indicate.

 

[Zebstrika]

I do not think I ever said a player should be predictable, nor did I say anything about what determines a pokemon's tier. What are you even referring to? In fact, I am pretty sure I agree with the truth of this entire statement... so perhaps you meant to reply to someone else?



This I do not agree with. There are huge advantages to giving your opponent a pattern. I think we can call it leading, luring and trapping.



Never said it was all 50/50 odds. I was just demonstrating how my opponents argument was self defeating in a pretentious and completely condescending way... I thought the tone of my post was obviously pointed. I have heard your argument about how it is a true 50/50. My argument was that the mechanics of the game produce inevitable unpredictable 50/50 scenarios. If this is true, as can be seen from the example given by my other opponent, then the burden of proof to show a distinction between Aegislash 50/50 scenarios and naturally generated 50/50 scenereos falls on the pro-ban community. If there is no relevant distinction than the 50/50 argument fails to prove anything. I further concluded that I only see one distinction here: Aegislash is actually more predictable than these other unforeseen naturally generated 50/50's because there is an expectation that he will create this prediction lacuna and is therefore more predictable than those that are naturally generated by the mechanics of the game; therefore, the 50/50 argument fails to prove that Aegislash is any more predictable than the meta itself and is not ban worthy. If you are not going to address this argument and if you only plan to reiterate the same arguments that I have shown fails, then please waste less forum space doing it.

For the first part, there was a part in your quote that players should predict what Aegislash should do (sorry if I misunderstood this), and I was saying that predictable players are not top level players (and it is those top level players who are most important to tiering).

Sometimes luring the opponent into a pattern can work but you give up many predictions to lure them into winning one prediction of your own, which is usually not worth it (I admit sometimes it is, just not often, and they generally aren't on true 50/50s). Against Aegislash, that thing can put out so much damage that luring it into a pattern and giving it a couple of free predictions can cost more than it's worth.

I'm not arguing that Aegislash causes different 50/50s than other pokemon. But it causes way more than any other pokemon with king's shield adding +1 every turn on top of the switches and stuff that other pokemon can cause, and with its damage output, does a very good job of exploiting overpredictions, and I think that getting rid of so many 50/50s in one ban (especially combined with many of the other pro-ban arguments, like requiring several answers in every team) is a good move.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

No, my point was only that any decent player is trying to out predict his opponent. Your exaggeration is what we call a 'straw man”. I never implied something so extreme. Nobody that makes all his predictions based on a single move is is a “decent player”. Still, since this upset you so, a “good player” (as you put it) will gather as much information from the beginning and throughout the match as possible. They will try to make a distinction between what information is relevant and what information must be disregarded and/or ignored. I gave examples of this in an earlier post, but I guess you were to fired up to just ask for my “proof”. No good player is going to allow themselves to be predicted with utmost certainty, but to say that they cannot be predicted is a joke. How does anyone play professional chess, professional poker, professional GO? I think such “patterns” produced by players are called tails. Even if it were the case that players were unpredictable wouldn't that mean that the entire meta is a series of 50/50's, and Aegislash just forces some special variant? I mean if that is the case then we can go ahead and throw that argument out, can't we? Atleast, someone can make a distinction between the 50/50's of all these unpredictable players and Aegislash. Of course, I wouldn't want to “straw man,”, so I will give you the benefit doubt and assume that you either did not mean that the meta is completely unpredictable or that you have in mind how Aegislash scenarios are relevantly different.


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Okay, well you pointed out a 50/50 that occurred naturally within the mechanics of the game. They are a part of the game. Even with all the relevant information, as you so eloquently displayed for us, you can only infer that neither of you have the information necessary to predict the next players move. That's good. You do see what you did there right. You just defeated your argument. If the mechanics of the game naturally produce 50/50's even with the relevant information, how is Aegislash's case different. How is its KS anymore ban worthy than the natural situations that occur during a match between all pokemon and all players. Now, I am going to pour a little salt on this, because the 50/50 argument on the pro-ban side is a joke. There just isn't a difference except you can expect Aegislash producing a 50/50, but you cannot predict when a 50/50 will naturally occur, making the steel ghost definitively more predictable than the games own mechanics.

We on the not-ban side appreciate your input

Not to sound like a bitch, but after reading my post it was unreasonably condescending towards you, it wasnt meant to be. I just sensed arrogance coming from your post and I tend to respond in the same manner the post I am replying to is following. But anyway....

Just a few quick points/clarifications. 50/50s by their very nature are uncompetitive, I doubt anybody disagrees with that. However, this game does force 50/50s regardless of Aegislash's presence, my point is that he adds a whole new type of 50/50 to the mix which just means we now have an addition to the one aspect of uncompetitiveness we are already having to deal with. If we could ban 50/50s I feel like we would, but we cant because you cant ban situations in pokemon, but what we can do is ban pokemon who can single-handedly cause 50/50s just by their presence in the game. So if we can take any aspect of uncompetitiveness I am all for that. Here is/might be a simplified version of my logic:

50/50s are uncompetitive(ie the fewer the better if we want a competitive meta)
Aegislash using kings shield has become a completely random chance at this point and is a 50/50
Aegislash possesses a quality of uncompetitiveness(this word is a bitch to type this much this late...)
Solution: Ban King's Shield

^this would be my solution if the only reason we want aegislash gone is because the 50/50s he forces. But it isnt, he has many other qualities that may not individually be broken. This is the problem with posts like yours imo, because even if you convinced everybody that aegislash doesnt cause 50/50s(which isnt likely) they would still be pushing for his ban because of his versatility/god like stats/overcentralization, and whatever other reasons there are.

On top of that banning king's shield seems like a waste because I am pretty sure he would suck without KS and we might was well ban him to let him go out with some dignity. So yeah instead of just picking one argument, you are going to have to be able to convince the pro-ban side that all of his attributes together are perfectly OK to have fit into one pokemon, and that might be tough (i'd say impossible because people be set in their ways myself included)

 

[r00ks45]

While it would be nice to not deal with aegislash anymore, I'm kind of scared if it does get banned. The banning of aegislash will just let a lot of other forgotten threats become more dominant in ou. Therefore, I'm kinda in the middle for this suspect test. It's funny because aegislash is so overcentrailized in ou that he actually helps balance the metagame. With him gone, Ou will be filled with dangerous threats like Mega Medicham.

Also, if kings shield was banned, Aegislash will lose the one niche it has. I mean, it's typing is cool and all but without kings shield, knock off can be spammed more. Yah, it's better to just ban the thing altogether instead of just crippling it.

 

[RufflesPro]

ok ignoring the fact this thread has became aids I want to say:

Concerning Aegislash:

King's shield is not a 50/50 situation, that's like saying Sucker Punch is 50/50. However, I do agree, Aegislash should be banned imo

It's a close call, but I feel like Aegislash is like Mega gengar, it can't do everything in one set, but if it wants it can pretty much at least check any pokemon it wants with the sheer versatility and unpredictability it packs. Even though it can't trap it can pretty much lure anything, surprise and KO back.

Examples:

Mandibuzz lure - Weakness Policy/Colbur Berry w/ Head smash.
Landorus/Garchomp/SpD Glisocr lure - Shuca berry [or Leftovers with certain SpD investment] hidden power ice
Bisharp lure - Colbur Berry Sacred Sword
Heatran Lure - Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak combo KOs SpD heatran with LO after rocks.

May seem gimmicky sets, but it can be quite effective even without gimmicky set. LO Mixed can pretty much wreck stall, Spooky Plate Mixed can do a number on HO and is decent vs. stall, SD Sneak can do a lot to HO and even stall, Sub/Toxic w/ Leftovers can do a good number on Stall and HO.

Even though there are certain counters for certain sets, there is no one true counter to basically ALL the sets. Unlike Mega Kangaskhan who had Sableye at the very least.

The way I see aegislash is that it's a pokemon that is slightly unhealthy for the metagame, but after laddering on the Aegislash-less OU ladder, the metagame is much more balanced [well minus lando and prolly char x] and fun, so I think an Aegislash-less metagame is healthier.

edit by Haunter: stay on topic.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Of course, moves like Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Knock Off/Crunch/Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball will be still used in the OU. They are really good moves, that even with one Pokemon less will be common that those moves are going to still be in the metagame and teams will still have to be prepared for it.

What problems has Aegislash in the metagame?
1. Has verious very effective sets with different checks and different counters. If the standard tank set has few checks and almost no counters. Those differenty sets deals with those counters, while being still effective. Also, it's not easy to known what set is running; for example, if Aegislash used Shadow ball, you don't know if you are against the SubToxic set or the Tank set.

1. You can say, "I know it from Team preview", this arguments is only true for top players (the ones who participate in tournaments) and een them it depends of the case. It's true that some pokemon can be deducted from Team preview depending of the teammates and team structure (like predicting who has Stealth Rock, if we are dealing with a weather team, what Pokemon is going to be the Mega or who is the main lead of the team) but it's very difficult to identify the main Aegislash sets.

2. It has the best typing of the metagame (alongisde Steel/Fairy): Ghost/Fairy has 4 weakness, 2 neutralities, 9 resistances and 3 immunities. This is huge. For comparison, Ferrothorn has 2 weakness one being 4x), 6 neutralities, 9 resistances and 1 immunity; Skarmory has 2 weakness, 6 neutralitiess, 8 resistances and 2 immunities; Heatran has 3 weakness (one being 4x), 4 neutralities, 9 resistancea and 2 inmunities (one for typing, one coersd a aneutrtality by ability), Mawile/klefki has 2 weakness, 5 neutralities, 9 resitances and 2 immunities.

3. it's a special pokemon. It's a pokemo0n who loves being slow. The objective while using this pokemon is: I switch in an attack that takes me a little opportunity to do so (there are 12 types), tank the attack, decide to attack second using both the 150 Defenses and 150 offenses (in both sides), and use King's Shield unless 1) the opponent can attack me in Blade Form, 2) It's at low health (Shadow Sneak).

There are no OU pokemon that can use 150 Defenses in both sides and 150 Offenses in both sides. The only pokemon with such big stats are Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar (only attack nwell physically, has 7 weakness) and Mega Garchomp (who has other problems) and Mega Gyarados (who neither has a great typiung and it's pretty one-dimensional). Those pokemon can have an equivalent bulk of Aegislash while attacking in one side of the spectrum.

But there are other pokemon with high stats? No so much, Charizard X has 130 base in boith attacks + Tough Claws (and there are reclamations), Mawile has 259 Attack but it's forced to run a Mega Stone and has poor SDef (and there are reclmation), landorus has 115 Special Attack + Sherer Force, Thundurus has 125 + Orankster, Azumarill has around 150, Excadrill has 135, Mega Gyarados has 155, Kelode has 129,Mega Pn sir has 155, Mega Scizor has 150, etc. Many of those pokemon are good in these one stats, have to run a Mega, had movepool issues, defensive issues or can't run a positive nature. Aegislash doesn't rhave nothing of that.

4. The thing that I think they are broken.
-Making many Ghost and Psychics unvuable in the metagame or having lower usage than they deserve. Reuniclus and Jirachi in D, Hawlucha in BL while sucking in OU (although I expect returning to UU), Celebi, Cresselia, Jellicent, Starmie, Espeon, (Mega) Alakazam, Mega Blastoise, Mienshao, azelf, Forretress, Roserade, Medicham, Gardevoir, are less viable only because Aegislash is around.
It's true that many Psychics will still haveproblems with tyranitar, Bisharp and Mandibuzz. But Tyhranitart didn't stop using Psychic types like Bisharp is doing, Bisharp can be dealt with focus Blast + a proper Fighting type (who are les viable thanks to Aegislash) or a Fire/Ground type not too crippled much to Sucker Punch.

However, pokemon that can deal with Aegislash are getting high viability, like Bisharp, tyranitar, Mandoibuzz, Hippowdon or Amoonguss. For exam0ple, Hippowdon is less viable in UU than in OU, which is ridiculous.

-King's Shield. Not only makes Aehgislash able to scout the move the opponent has (like Protect), and reerts back to the Shield Forme, but if a contact move is made while using that moive, their attack is two stages lower. This is ridiculous. Not only has ridiculous defenses, but it can be reliable dealt with it unless you're named Bisharp or you are using Earthquake, because all the Ghost (only Aegislash and Mega Banette uses it), Dark and Fire relvant physical attacks are contact moves. Also, Electric physical attacks are rare (and make contact) and Water physical attacks are also contact. In o0ther works, of 6 types that Aegislash doesn't resist, you fear King'0s Hield in 5 of them because if you are using a physical attack.

This is why I consider that Aegislash has to go to Ubers.

I dont think that Mega Medichanm, Mega Gardevoir will be broken without Aegislash. Mit maybe has few counters, but they are very frail and in the first turn they have 80 Base Speed (and after that, onyl 100 Base Speed).

 

[Anty]

Ok here we go guys, looking at all this crap people have posted, I've decided tto prove why Aegislash should not be banned:
1. This guy DOES NOT have 720 BST, in neither form
2.Yeah he has checks that he can destroy, but has no one ever considered using some lower tier Pokemon to check Aegislash? Mega Aggron, Goodra, Cofagrigus, Ditto and Sableye can stop Aegislash cold
3. Its reliance on a King's Shield is outlandish, using taunt will completely shut down Aegislash
4.After you wreck its move/ability (giving it mummy or something else) Aegislash is frail beyond everything
5. Ubers: Aegislash will have his usage dropped A LOT if he gets into Ubers, since everything there will just destroy it and take its hits like nothing
7.Ban some crap like Talonflame, or at least gale wings, not some Pokemon that's perfectly fine in OU

Aegislash really doesn't deserve a ban to Ubers, 50/50s are pointless now and using the suggested counters I said are great, which can bring some poke's up tiers and what not.Thanks.

1. It 'effectively' has 720, but i dont think much of that argument
2. Most of the pokes you mention dont check
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cofagrigus: 222-264 (69.3 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery<< ditto is effectively sheild form and will not change form when attacking
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 114-134 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- 70.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO <<that is uninvested, if sd, aegi wins

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

None of the pokes can ko aegi in sheild form.

3. It isnt reliant on kings shield, it is great but not all sets have it. If you taunt aegi you might have to be hit by a STAB base 80 move coming from a base 150 spattack, with one of the best offensive types atm.

4. Shadow ball wont give it mummy, it can always switch out if you taunt it.

5. We dont care about the ubers meta here

7. Talonflame is not broken at all, and that isnt an argument anti ban aegi.


What most people dont get about Kings shield is that instead of the matchup being equal, it should be in favour against aegislash, but kings shield can switch that so there is a 50/50 chance of winning (depending on the opp).
Take talon vs aegi for a moment, usually, banded talon should have the advantage:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 332-392 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But because of kingsshield being available and talon not having a way around it, it isnt even a 2hko:
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-4 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 110-132 (33.9 - 40.7%) -- 41.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery<< after a second ks

This lets aegi get the kill
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 217-256 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I know this is assuming theyre both at full health, but that is an example of how aegi should be in a worse situation, but isnt.
This can be comparable with 50/50's, when the attacker, who should be in better situation, isnt, due aegi forcing a situation with a random (yes, random) 50/50 choice.

 

[Anty]

Do you think I care about statistics, anyways, every mega aggron set has investment in SpD, most sets running 252/16/240 in ev defense investments, goodra is also invested a little bit in def in most sets, Cofagrigus will wisp,taunt or D-Bond, sableye can wisp/taunt or metal burst, and mega aggron is ALWAYS ran with QuakeSlam

By statistics do you mean damage calcs? because they prove what i am saying. Theses pokes can just manage to check aegislash once, as only sableye has recovery and none of them can switch in. Also, the fact that most of these mons arent as viable, eg metal burst sableye, just shows that aegislash is op if you are forced to run obscure checks or counters.
They arent good checks if they loose most of their health revenge killing aegi. Taunt really isnt a way of beating it, if you taunt it with sableye you will be 2hko'd or forced to recover till shadow ball gets a spdef drop

3 words: Porygon2 counters Aegislash

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 350-412 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO, guaranteed with rocks
And its not like you can do anything vs aegi anyway

e: If you want a revenge killer, use a poke that can out speed and ohko through shield form, like bisharp. I do use bisharp to revenge kill aegi, and it remains at full health if they stay in.

 

[DracoNinja]

Ok here we go guys, looking at all this crap people have posted, I've decided tto prove why Aegislash should not be banned:
1. This guy DOES NOT have 720 BST, in neither form
2.Yeah he has checks that he can destroy, but has no one ever considered using some lower tier Pokemon to check Aegislash? Mega Aggron, Goodra, Cofagrigus, Ditto and Sableye can stop Aegislash cold
3. Its reliance on a King's Shield is outlandish, using taunt will completely shut down Aegislash
4.After you wreck its move/ability (giving it mummy or something else) Aegislash is frail beyond everything
5. Ubers: Aegislash will have his usage dropped A LOT if he gets into Ubers, since everything there will just destroy it and take its hits like nothing
7.Ban some crap like Talonflame, or at least gale wings, not some Pokemon that's perfectly fine in OU

Aegislash really doesn't deserve a ban to Ubers, 50/50s are pointless now and using the suggested counters I said are great, which can bring some poke's up tiers and what not.Thanks.

Are you stupid, no one needs to get banned, people are just not resorting to lower tiers to counter Aegislash

Firstly 50/50s actually means if let's say a weaker player is vs a stronger player. The stronger player has an equal chance of losing to the weaker player as winning, when the stronger player should by right be winning, however it is decided simply by a coinflip.

Your short list of "checks" are shitty, Cofagrigus/Ditto/Sableye do not even check Aegislash. Ditto shouldn't even be ever listed as a check to anything to begin. Both Cofagrigus and Sableye eat a shitton of damage from Shadow Ball, and you expect them to "check" Aegislash. When you bring up checks, can you also bring viable checks up that are relevant in the metagame instead of scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to scrape one. I'm not saying Mega Aggron and Goodra are bad but they need a lot more support that other stuff like Hippowdon and Garchomp to succeed, and they have many other uses outside of checking Aegislash in the current metagame, making them overall much more useful. At your point 5, nobody gives a shit about their usage in Ubers if the pokemon is deemed broken in OU, deal with it. Could you please post a sensible post that actually contributes to the discussion instead of giving 2 posts of shit which shows your inexperience in competitive battling and posting in suspect discussions. The irony that many posted relatively "decent" posts and you think its crap, and you throw around garbage yourself. Also please learn how to count and find the number missing between 5 and 7. People like yourself are what makes the thread a cancer to read.

Aegislash is while a pokemon that had the entire metagame revolve around it, banning it will cause all playstyles to suffer significantly because Aegislash is a fantastic glue, especially on offensive teams, and in general it's a great fit to almost every team. A lot of people talk about how the entire metagame revolves around Aegislash and leave it to fall flat like that, but does the metagame really struggle vs Aegislash. It may be true that it pushed a lot of other pokemon such as Lucario/Starmie/Celeb/Jirachi out of OU, but they also had their fair weaknesses during the generation shift, and with stronger threats being introduced, and the steel-nerf, they may have fell out in favour because of that, but Aegslash's presence alone further caused its plunge in usage. For example, Ground and Fire-type moves are seen much more in the tier on pokemon like Tyranitar to combat Aegislash, but does the move have any other relevance and hits hard vs other threats other than Aegislash. Furthermore Aegislash's formes forces mindgames, focusing the game heavily on prediction. Pokemon isn't a straightforward game where you play and click moves. Pokemon is more of a complex game where like chess every move you make, you should attempt to strengthen your position and play to beat or weaken the pokemon that checks or beats your win-condition. It is obvious that the Aegislash user wants to keep Aegislash for as long as possible until it is no longer needed, and the opponent's goal is to beat Aegislash or weaken it to the point where another pokemon can sweep the opponent. Aegislash may have a fantastic combination of great stats and typing and ability to pull off many sets, but it can't run all at once, given that once you find out what set it is running if it shows its coverage moves, you can send in the appropriate counter to it. Sure it is unpredictable but until then, Aegislash is a pokemon that is usually played early or mid-game and is used to exploit and open up as many holes as possible in the opponent's team, or be the enabler of a sweep by helping to weaken the check blocking your win-con. It does have its positive traits, but its generally beneficial and not as unhealthy as many think it is simply because it overcentralises the metagame.

 

[Pyritie]

Now, there is a big difference between say, Hasty Life Orb Flash Cannon Aegislash and Trick Scarf Rotom-W. The difference being, Hasty Aegi is actually a very effective set besides being a lure, while Trick Scarf Rotom really isn't. That's the problem with Aegi : not necessarily that it can change its sets, but that it really doesn't lose much by doing so. Scarf Rotom has to sacrifice its bulk in order to pull of a scarf set, and therefore loses the ability to take on a lot of threats, and doesn't gain much besides being able to lure Chansey and freinds.

Minor nitpick but you can use a trick specs rotom-w and still keep your bulk.

Aegi reminds me a lot of rotom-w. Both have great typings, both are defensive and can switch into a lot and are great pivots, and both have good offensive presence and some utility. Both also get worn down very easily because neither has any good recovery moves. All these calcs always show aegi at 100% HP, and if aegi's switching into so much as a lot of these posts say it is, it's going to get worn down, especially if it isn't a set that has lefties. And it's still slow as balls, so once it's gotten worn down, it's pretty easy to just 2HKO it with something faster.

 

[LU-the great]

Just a few quick points/clarifications. 50/50s by their very nature are uncompetitive, I doubt anybody disagrees with that. However, this game does force 50/50s regardless of Aegislash's presence, my point is that he adds a whole new type of 50/50 to the mix which just means we now have an addition to the one aspect of uncompetitiveness we are already having to deal with. If we could ban 50/50s I feel like we would, but we cant because you cant ban situations in pokemon, but what we can do is ban pokemon who can single-handedly cause 50/50s just by their presence in the game. So if we can take any aspect of uncompetitiveness I am all for that. Here is/might be a simplified version of my logic:

50/50s are uncompetitive(ie the fewer the better if we want a competitive meta)
Aegislash using kings shield has become a completely random chance at this point and is a 50/50
Aegislash possesses a quality of uncompetitiveness(this word is a bitch to type this much this late...)
Solution: Ban King's Shield

I am going to give and example of a 50/50 i think is healthy for a metagame to show that at least some are healthy. Assume, that I have stealth rocks up and rotom out. My opponent has Zapadose which has just taken stealth rock damage. he is down to one other pokemon. We will say it is Infernape. I predict an electric type attack and switch to Mamoswine, and i predict correctly. He has two choices. Either he leaves Zapadose out and takes huge damage from icicle crash, or he switches to Infernape and possibly gets hit with earthquake. Still, If i mispredict and use earthquake I get a heatwave to the face. If I mispredict and use icicle crash on an Infernape switch, I will get outspeed and KO'ed the following turn. Neither, of us actually has the upper hand. It is a naturally generated 50/50 scenario. Mamoswine generates many of these because he can hit so many things super effectively, yet he gets so many weaknesses. Still, would we want to say that these situations should not be part of the game? How could they not? In this situation how is it even possible to make both our next decisions certain, and how would that be competitive. The answer is it wouldn't and it isn't. These situations have to happen and they are competitive.

^this would be my solution if the only reason we want aegislash gone is because the 50/50s he forces. But it isnt, he has many other qualities that may not individually be broken. This is the problem with posts like yours imo, because even if you convinced everybody that aegislash doesnt cause 50/50s(which isnt likely) they would still be pushing for his ban because of his versatility/god like stats/overcentralization, and whatever other reasons there are.

On top of that banning king's shield seems like a waste because I am pretty sure he would suck without KS and we might was well ban him to let him go out with some dignity. So yeah instead of just picking one argument, you are going to have to be able to convince the pro-ban side that all of his attributes together are perfectly OK to have fit into one pokemon, and that might be tough (i'd say impossible because people be set in their ways myself included)

In previous posts I have argued that the over-centralization is actually healthy for the metagame, because it centralizes away from pure stall and powerful sweepers and stead centers the game around pure prediction as a win condition. It gives players something else to worry about instead of a pokemon buffing or setting up substitute, and it halts endless switching wars. This I think,for obvious reasons, is healthy.

I have not argued against its "god-like" stats and its "versatility" because I have not seen a well established argument that uses these criteria as their substance. I will address them here if you would like. First, a pokemon being too versatile holds no water by itself. For this reason, I would only have to argue against the other three, two of which I have already done. When it comes to God-like stats I can say only that Aegislash cannot abuse them in a ban-worthy way. First off, and this has been put forth multiple times, he only has God-like states if you take the sum total of his states in shield form and sword form. If he had them all at the same time, which people tend to want to argue because of the mechanics of King shield, there would be no argument. I would have never made an account on this forum to defend against his banning. Further, because of the mechanics of King's Shield he is susceptible to both encore and taunt, and almost all users of these two moves can out speed and cripple him into one form or the other because of his atrocious speed. I wouldn't call that God-like, especially since he cannot abuse them without risk to himself. This is very unlike the power of say Mega Blazikin, Gengar, or Khangaskhan who can either sweep with ease with very few checks or can trap and eliminate an important portion of your core. I disagreed with the ban of these three pokemon because, in general, I do not like bans but they were powerful enough that I understood the suspect testing of the community. But, there is a huge power lacuna between these pokemon and Aegislash. Aegislash just cannot be compared to their destructive capabilities.

Aegislash is indeed versatile. He makes spamming fighting moves a less powerful tactic, which I think is a good thing. Ghost steel allows him to pivot into many attacks, not disimmilar to Rotom-w. He ruins rapid spin, which is nerfed anyway because its users are generally terrible pokemon anyway and because of new defoggers. He has a powerful Ghost stab. Thank goodness! We needed another stab Ghost attack other than Gengar. He can run a mixed set. This gives a soft nerf to stall. He has King's shield. This gives a soft nerf to hyper offensive teams. Still, without the use of the other arguments we can only conclude that he is just one of the most balanced pokemon in the game. And, as far as I can tell, there really aren't any other arguments. I tend to think that is why he is used so often. *shrug*

 

[Baharoth]

Regarding the chomp vs mawile example (b/c I agree with pretty much everything else you said), you have to realize that this is a mawile at +2. THERE ARE NO SWITCH-INS. You can't play the switch game here because nothing is going to take that play rough! So what if they sucker punch as you successfully get something in? Well, then you're at the same predicament again, just this time with a different mon and (hopefully) a slightly better matchup. Even attempting to switch in a pokemon (lets say specs keldeo) is incredibly risky because even though keldeo can take a +2 sucker and revenge kill with a safe specs scald, do you want to risk switching keldeo in? That's a 50/50 right there! Ok, I don't want to take that risk, but what can I do with garchomp? ANOTHER 50/50! So you can't really avoid the brutal guessing game that mega mawile plays by switching around.

I do realize the difference between KS and Sucker Punch in regards to 50/50s, but again, i just wanted to clear it up.



This really just shows me that you don't know what a counter is :I
A counter can switch into its target consistently on every move it has and can then proceed to cripple or kill it.
Heatran cannot switch into sacred sword safely lol, idk why you think it can take two:
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 176-208 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And I don't think i have to calc a garchomp taking a shadow ball from aegislash to show you that it doesn't switch in too well.
These pokemon are checks; pokemon that can beat aegislash given a free switch-in. There aren't a lot of pokemon that can take ANY two hits from aegislash, which is what a counter does.

I wont argue that a move like Sucker Punch on monsters like Bisharp or Mawile is somewhat uncompetitive due to the luck factor thats inherent to it. However, we are talking about pokemon here, the game is uncompetitive from the start. If you realy wanna change that you will have to massivly change the game mechanics. Looking at the big picture even sucker punch is only a minor evil imo.

 

[Spaniard]

Aegislash is pretty strong no doubts. But from experience I rarely find myself struggling vs him.

It's true that it can run multiple sets to "surpise" kill it's would be counters, but all honestly, not so many people run them. Also you cannot run all movesets at once, and every set has it's flaws and can be played arround (no obscure counters here, most well built teams have answers or checks to all aegislash sets). Also that same argumet can be stated about many pokemons (for instance, talonflame can run hp ground fire blast brave bird roost life orb to surprise kill some of his counters/checks and that doesn't make him overpowered whatsoever).

Regarding king shield, I believe the attack drop can be slightly overpowered, but nothing too big as people mention. Saying it forces prediction is plain lazy, pokemon involves prediction and guessing and I find it enjoyable. Aegislash without king shield is weak, and I don't encourage banning the move. The move itself can be abused via using substitute, status, switch out or set up, not to mention not all moves make physical contact. KS makes aegi a pseudo 720 BST but I don't find that overpowered, it consumes one moveslot and KS is not fully safe, it can be abused when spammed if you have guts and try to outplay him (aegislash damage output is strong but not retardedly powerful to the point where you can't gamble taking a free hit.

Talking about centralization. I find Aegislash to be a fantastic glue pokemon that counters many dangerous threats. I like his presence in the metagame. I find aegi to be a pokemon that checks dangerous threats more often than him being a powerhouse that people have to massively overprepare for. For instance sub toxic aegi lets you outplay the always dangerous M-Mawile that many teams struggle against. But I rarely find aegi to be this problematic pokemon most teams have little options to play against him. His typing and stance change is healthy for the metagame in my opinion. I would hate playing a metagame full of roflstomp pokemons such as M gardevoir or M medicham that can easily nuke whole teams with little support (i.e. slight misplays vs them leave you open to a full sweep because they OHKO a large portion of the metagame or at least severely cripple stuff). Aegislash damage output is not retardedly strong.

TL,DR

Both aegislash and king shield are fine. There are enough answers/checks. Learn to play arround him. The "we can perfectly counter every threat in the metagame" era is long ago gone. You are playing pokemon, you are required to make predictions and guess.

Do not ban.

 

[SilviuSantos]

Check aegislash and conters:Bisharp,Sableye,Heatran,Mandibuzz,Excadrill,landorus-therian,landorus,Charizard Y,Rotom Wash,Rotom Heat,Rotom Mow,Sucker Punch is problem,Ferrothorn Wall Psysical,Mega Aggron,Mega Garchomp,Mega Gyarados,Ninetales and Honchkrow

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Check aegislash and conters:Bisharp,Sableye,Heatran,Mandibuzz,Excadrill,landorus-therian,landorus,Charizard Y,Rotom Wash,Rotom Heat,Rotom Mow,Sucker Punch is problem,Ferrothorn Wall Psysical,Mega Aggron,Mega Garchomp,Mega Gyarados,Ninetales and Honchkrow

None of those counter. Let me give you the definition of a counter

Counter:
A Pokemon that can switch into X without ANY risk at all, and wins in ANY scenario, no matter the amount of hax.

 

[LordGauss]

None of those counter. Let me give you the definition of a counter

Counter:
A Pokemon that can switch into X without ANY risk at all, and wins in ANY scenario, no matter the amount of hax.

Hax does matter in many cases *coughIceBeam* if we define counter as strictly as you do. Most people ignore crits and 10% nonsense, and some counters require a certain amount of health to work.

 

[Stoo]

i wanna talk about KS, since alot of people seem to be getting fucked up about it.

the definition of a 50/50 is a situation where the risk/reward is equally high for both players, and will usually result in the mon that is currently on the field either dying or being crippled severely. it is a situation where the potential cost of clicking kings shield is the same as clicking, say, dragon dance on mega t-tar. either one could be potentially fatal for the player who gets the 50/50 wrong. another example of this kind of 50/50 might be, say, your opponent just set up a belly drum with azu and your only chance to win is to get two kings shields onto it so you can live the hit and kill it. you KS once, sac a poke, then bring aegi back in. high stakes 50/50.

yes, this is a problem. but what is honestly a bigger problem is the fact that in alot of situations, KS is no kind of 50/50 at all, and is in fact a completely free chance to (potentially) cripple AND scout your opponent for 0 cost. i highlight the 'and' because anything can scout for free with protect - nothing can scout and cripple the opponent like aegi can. an example of a situation that might seem like a 50/50 but is always, every single time, in aegislash's favour:
-standard AV conk using either drain punch/knock off on a predicted KS (sure, it could be bulk up but literally no-one uses that anymore)
-tyranitar on a team that has another obvious mega such as charizard or pinsir
-aegi + lati vs knock off landorus

BUT this is imho not even close to the biggest problem with aegi, which is simply that theres zero reliable offensive switch ins to it. aegi destroys offense. what can you switch in? bisharp? SS. lando-i? not if SR are up or aegi has a life orb. zard-x? not if SR are up, and you're still looking at more mindgames after if you have no roost. this is why offense runs stuff like heatran with SR. most of the stuff that can switch into aegi is typically found on balanced teams, less so on stall although they usually have amoong/glis/whatever. this is the main reason i'm pro-ban on aegi.

 

[vyomov]

no matter the amount of hax

Since when was this a part of the definition of a counter? Azumarill can technically freeze M-Venu with Ice Punch and then beat it to death - but most competitive players would agree that M-Venu is a hard counter to Azumarill.

Also you cannot run all movesets at once,

This was an excellent point brought up - Aegislash cannot actually run all its movesets at once. For instance, certain arguments cite Head Smash on Aegislash to beat Mandibuzz - but few competent players will run such a set, simply because Mandibuzz is not on every team - in fact, it's not on most teams, meaning that Head Smash Aegis is deadweight against teams without Mandibuzz(or equivalent rock-weak counter), and running a better set gives it a better chance of performing against the average team, which is why citing Head Smash in my opinion is not at all valid

 

[Agent Gibbs]

None of those counter. Let me give you the definition of a counter

Counter:
A Pokemon that can switch into X without ANY risk at all, and wins in ANY scenario, no matter the amount of hax.

Woah, that's way too strict of a definition. By that definition, practically nothing is a counter to anything. Unless a Pokemon is completely immune to the opponent's moveset and all forms of passive damage are out of the question, a Pokemon will always be taking at least a slight risk switching in, even if it's just losing a small amount of health. Hax also can turn a large number of matchups on their heads, so it's ultimately irrelevant when deciding counters (except when hax is quite likely, such as paraflinching and Scald burns). For instance, 252/4 Chansey is almost always 2HKOed by Timid Charizard Y's Fire Blast after Stealth Rock if Fire Blast gets two critical hits in a row, and Modest Charizard Y 2HKOs most of the time even without Stealth Rock. However, Chansey is still considered to be a very solid counter because it generally wins pretty handily outside of ridiculous hax. There was a Smog article a while back that defined a counter as such:

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

As long as a Pokemon can switch into another and win the matchup, it can be considered a counter. Now, it may be a soft counter if it can only do that once or twice before it can no longer switch in safely, or it may be a hard counter if it can switch in multiple times and possibly even heal itself to keep switching in over the course of the match, but it's a counter all the same.

 

[rufus drumknott]

None of those counter. Let me give you the definition of a counter

Counter:
A Pokemon that can switch into X without ANY risk at all, and wins in ANY scenario, no matter the amount of hax.

Dude, no. A counter switches into X and immediately gets the advantage but there's no such thing as the ultimate counter to X Pokemon and saying that to throw out an argument is plain lazy.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I am going to give and example of a 50/50 i think is healthy for a metagame to show that at least some are healthy. Assume, that I have stealth rocks up and rotom out. My opponent has Zapadose which has just taken stealth rock damage. he is down to one other pokemon. We will say it is Infernape. I predict an electric type attack and switch to Mamoswine, and i predict correctly. He has two choices. Either he leaves Zapadose out and takes huge damage from icicle crash, or he switches to Infernape and possibly gets hit with earthquake. Still, If i mispredict and use earthquake I get a heatwave to the face. If I mispredict and use icicle crash on an Infernape switch, I will get outspeed and KO'ed the following turn. Neither, of us actually has the upper hand. It is a naturally generated 50/50 scenario. Mamoswine generates many of these because he can hit so many things super effectively, yet he gets so many weaknesses. Still, would we want to say that these situations should not be part of the game? How could they not? In this situation how is it even possible to make both our next decisions certain, and how would that be competitive. The answer is it wouldn't and it isn't. These situations have to happen and they are competitive.

I know this is just an example and I see the point you are trying to make. But those are the types of 50/50s that I said we are all able to accept, because there is no way we can get rid of them, they are apart of the game and have been for a long time, the problem is now we are having to adapt to a whole new element of 50/50s, and it is all because of one pokemon. By the way, I do not even think the 50/50 argument is the strongest argument for the pro-ban side, I mean I think its a legitamate one, but I only am fighting it so much because you are giving me thoughtful arguments in return(which I appreciate). The last thing I want to say about King's Shield and 50/50s are lets say I have a conkeldurr and I decide to drain punch on the king's shield, but then he attacks me and now I have to guess all over again, I dont feel like I got outplayed I feel like Aegislash put me in a position of luck, that entirely relied on luck and put me in a position where I was powerless.

The other thing you mentioned was that the ONLY way aegislash can get to his effective stats is the first turn he is switched in then he HAS to kings shield to get them back, which is untrue, the reason I say he has the pseudo-720 stats is because typically Aegislash switches in on lets say latios, eats up whatever hit with ease, and then fires off a powerful move at whatever wants to switch in, now aegislash has forced a switch and most likely caused a good amount of damage on the switch. His work is done for now and he is free to switch out to an appropiate pokemon, and next time he comes in he will have the pseudo 720 stats, If Aegislash could only get his shield form back by using King's Shield then I would totally agree with you, but Aegislash is used as an offensive pivot most of the time, and in that role he definitely has the pseudo720, because he is always switching in causing damage and forcing switches, then switching out to do the same thing later.

First, a pokemon being too versatile holds no water by itself.

Completely agree, and that is why it is not being considered by itself, but rather a combination of traits that together make him too good for OU.

Then to just touch on a few more things you said

because it centralizes away from pure stall

As I hope you have seen on the suspect ladder, the absence of Aegislash has been a nightmare for stall because now all the stallbreakers are on the loose, so what you said there is simply not true, the absence of Aegislash may temporarily encourage more of an offensive playstyle, but that will only be temporary as we straighten up the tier. A tier that is so convoluted and centered around Aegilsash that dealing with the aftermath is actually a reason people are using to not ban him, which just shows that they are lazy, and can not come up with a good argument to keep him.

Over centralization is never a good thing, otherwise it would be called centralization. That means that ONE pokemon has soo many good traits it can completely discourage entire playstyles and pokemon from being used, forcing players to pick from a pool of albeit good pokemon, but regardless if they are good or not he limits teambuilding creativity single-handedly which is enough for ban for me. When you think of the tiers biggest threats you think charizard-x and mawile mega, these pokemon very well may get banned but they dont have impact the tier 1/4th as much as aegislash does, if you want a check for charizard x, just gets rocks on the field and have a scarfer with a dragon/rock/ground move, if you want to check mawile just use willowisp which is a good addition to any team and helps check other physical threats as well. But here is the point I am trying to make, Aegislash is the first pokemon that is not a sweeper and has wall like defenses that forces you to prepare for it. So that means that you now have one less spot to prepare for sweepers and offensive threats because you are worrying about an offensive pivot that if you dont prepare for it will take out your team.

I have similiar feelings about Aegislash as I did genesect, because honestly there is no reason not to put Aegislash on your team, he is easily the lowest risk highest reward pokemon, and the ratio is disproportianate in my opinion, like I said before, you need to address the issues comprehensively, breaking them down one by one is not going to convince anybody, if you want a solid argument in my eyes, you need to say ok here are these 5 traits that AEgislash possess and here is why I think the combination of these 5 traits is manageable and perfectly acceptable in OU.

 

[Sun King]

i wanna talk about KS, since alot of people seem to be getting fucked up about it.

the definition of a 50/50 is a situation where the risk/reward is equally high for both players, and will usually result in the mon that is currently on the field either dying or being crippled severely. it is a situation where the potential cost of clicking kings shield is the same as clicking, say, dragon dance on mega t-tar. either one could be potentially fatal for the player who gets the 50/50 wrong. another example of this kind of 50/50 might be, say, your opponent just set up a belly drum with azu and your only chance to win is to get two kings shields onto it so you can live the hit and kill it. you KS once, sac a poke, then bring aegi back in. high stakes 50/50.

yes, this is a problem. but what is honestly a bigger problem is the fact that in alot of situations, KS is no kind of 50/50 at all, and is in fact a completely free chance to (potentially) cripple AND scout your opponent for 0 cost. i highlight the 'and' because anything can scout for free with protect - nothing can scout and cripple the opponent like aegi can. an example of a situation that might seem like a 50/50 but is always, every single time, in aegislash's favour:
-standard AV conk using either drain punch/knock off on a predicted KS (sure, it could be bulk up but literally no-one uses that anymore)
-tyranitar on a team that has another obvious mega such as charizard or pinsir
-aegi + lati vs knock off landorus

BUT this is imho not even close to the biggest problem with aegi, which is simply that theres zero reliable offensive switch ins to it. aegi destroys offense. what can you switch in? bisharp? SS. lando-i? not if SR are up or aegi has a life orb. zard-x? not if SR are up, and you're still looking at more mindgames after if you have no roost. this is why offense runs stuff like heatran with SR. most of the stuff that can switch into aegi is typically found on balanced teams, less so on stall although they usually have amoong/glis/whatever. this is the main reason i'm pro-ban on aegi.

Honestly, I think this about sums up why Aegislash is getting suspected. It's because the vast majority of players are offensively-minded players. From an offensive standpoint, Aegislash inhibits your team building; you have to devote multiple checks to it if you want to stay competitive.

From a defensive standpoint, Aegislash fits in quite nicely. He deters some of the most potent wall breakers in existence, creating a much nicer environment in which stall can perform. On top of that, some of the best answers to Aegislash fit right in on a stall team (Amoongus and Chesnaught), so he's never really much of a thorn in stall's side.

Being a defensive player, of course I do not want Aegislash gone, however I respect that I am in the minority and will have but a minor say in the matter. I would say that most of the competitive player base agrees that Aegislash is not a "broken" Pokemon on his own. The divide is, "Is Aegislash HEALTHY for the metagame?"

Going back to what I said above,
•Offensive players will argue that Aegislash has an unhealthy effect on the metagame, as he forces teams to devote multiple answers to him.
•(most) Defensive players will argue that Aegislash is healthy for the metagame, as he helps provide the conditions in which Stall can perform reasonably well.

This suspect test is about so much more than "one broken Pokemon"; it's about where we, as a community, want the metagame to go.

 

[Toljik]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are more than just Aegislash on any given team. Chances are if the trainer knows it's up against something that can OHKO it, it'll switch out to a counter.

Also, you're completely wrong about serious damage in shield forme, bar Earthquake/Flamethrower/Overheat, and even then chances are they won't KO if Aegislash is in shield forme.

What makes Aegislash so dangerous is that not just any Earthquake/Flamethrower/Overheat can 1HKO it. Even Excadrill and Garchomp need Life Orb and an Adamant nature to guarantee a 1HKO on Aegislash with Earthquake.

 

[Rajikaru]

What makes Aegislash so dangerous is that not just any Earthquake/Flamethrower/Overheat can 1HKO it. Even Excadrill and Garchomp need Life Orb and an Adamant nature to guarantee a 1HKO on Aegislash with Earthquake.

Yep, and with the ability to switch from the highest non-legendary defense stats after taking a hit to the highest non-legendary attacking stats, it's pretty obvious Aegislash is incredibly powerful.

However, I'm still eh on whether it gets banned or not now. Neither side has made a good point, and usually the arguments from both sides are the same things proven wrong multiple times and throwing insults at eachother.

 

[Stoo]

Honestly, I think this about sums up why Aegislash is getting suspected. It's because the vast majority of players are offensively-minded players. From an offensive standpoint, Aegislash inhibits your team building; you have to devote multiple checks to it if you want to stay competitive.

From a defensive standpoint, Aegislash fits in quite nicely. He deters some of the most potent wall breakers in existence, creating a much nicer environment in which stall can perform. On top of that, some of the best answers to Aegislash fit right in on a stall team (Amoongus and Chesnaught), so he's never really much of a thorn in stall's side.

Being a defensive player, of course I do not want Aegislash gone, however I respect that I am in the minority and will have but a minor say in the matter. I would say that most of the competitive player base agrees that Aegislash is not a "broken" Pokemon on his own. The divide is, "Is Aegislash HEALTHY for the metagame?"

Going back to what I said above,
•Offensive players will argue that Aegislash has an unhealthy effect on the metagame, as he forces teams to devote multiple answers to him.
•(most) Defensive players will argue that Aegislash is healthy for the metagame, as he helps provide the conditions in which Stall can perform reasonably well.

This suspect test is about so much more than "one broken Pokemon"; it's about where we, as a community, want the metagame to go.

i would totally agree with this. but id say that a pokemon which has the ability to so completely threaten a playstyle with its power + near perfect coverage IS inherently broken. i mean, all wallbreakers can do this too, but none of them find the ridiculous number of switch in opurtunities that aegislash does.