np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[KlefkiHolder]

Ah, good to spend a day not checking this place and to see this.

Yeah, I share the sentiment that Mawile is a broken bitch. Given a free switch on Offense (usually against something like Lati@s) and getting either a Sub or SD (SD + Sucker destroys offense) can be a death sentence, especially Sub. If you let a Mawile get a free sub, you generally have to let something die just to take the sub down. There's a few reasons for that. One, Mawile is so strong. The thing has the equivalent of a 257 (at least) Base Attack when it is 252 Adamant (as in all of them). Keep in mind the natural limit of a base stat is 255. Mawile takes out a huge chunk of stall behind a Sub, and against offense it gets exponentially worse. The other reason is just the insane coverage of this thing. Sucker and Play Rough are on almost all sets, but then Maw can go into far deeper places. Fire Fang annihilates Scizor, Ferro and other Steels. Knock Off is an all around great utility move that has almost unresisted coverage with Fairy (ironically enough on steel fairy double resists) that is more reliable than Sucker most of the time. Iron Head is a great Stab that allows it to get around things like Mega Venu more easily and just is incredibly powerful in its own right. Focus Punch is great for hitting Tran and other Fighting weak on the switch, and behind a sub it is downright scary.

I've seen some people mention Arcanine as a great stop, but really, Arcanine is just poor in and of itself. Its only niche over other fire types like Zard X is intimidate, with the main reason for using that being Mawile. Being forced to run Arcanine to beat this thing is just not great. Another thing I've seen is Phys Def Lando T, but that cant really switch in. Also, Substitute blocks Intimidate, so gl with that if they're behind one. Mawile also gets Ice Punch and Stone Edge that it can use if these really become issues. Now, I'm not saying you should use that (especially Stone Edge), but really Maw can adapt is what I'm trying to show.

Now to evaluate the actual sets: Sub, imo, is the best one. Maw behind a sub is the scariest thing in this meta. Against offense it can pretty much guarantee a kill. Usually Focus Punch is seen as the fourth move on sub, but it doesnt have to be. It can still run the moves it does on SD and be just as effective. The main thing comes down to team needs when choosing the 4th. SD is the most common and is absolutely devastating as well. +2 Sucker Punch can mow through offense once you have Keldeo, Gren and the few other resists out of the way. The 4th moves usually seen I've already listed, with Focus Punch not being seen as much. Again, it mostly falls down to team needs. 4 Attacks is also very good. If SD is bluffed here and say, Fire Fang is revealed and your Heatran gets Focus Punch'd on the switch, well then, you're in a sticky situation. Focus Punch is actually pretty common on 4 Atks btw. This is also another problem with Mawile that past suspects like Genesect and Deoxys S had: If you get the set wrong, it can be very hard to recover from it. Now, you can say this about a lot of Pokemon, but with Maw the issue is far worse. Games can be ended far easier with Mawile's set shenanigans than almost, if not, the whole meta. The things counters switch incredibly by moving a moveslot or two. That, coupled with its insane power and respectable bulk, not to mention its godly typing, creates, in my honest opinion, an insanely broken and unhealthy Pokemon.
And that is without delving into the 50/50s.

tl;dr: Maw is unpredictable, unprecedentedly strong, and decently bulky making it an extremely banworthy Pokemon.

Ban

 

[Synral]

i don't even agree with aegis getting banned 100% but it at least committed the sin of making a truly dangerous 50/50. a lot of other dangerous offensive threats make 50/50s but king's shield has the unique attribute of crippling attackers.

just because mawile's 'versatile' doesn't mean she should get banned. any set lacking focus punch loses out to heatran, any set lacking fire fang loses out to skarmory (you could argue that focus punch does a shitton to skarmory, but it'll never kill a healthy skarmory and whirlwinding essentially ensures mawile doesn't get a safe switchin for the rest of the game, and even if it does, it'll never get a switchin with intimidate to cushion a faster offensive physical threat)

and lando-t beats both sets with nigh impunity. intimidate makes mawile fairly weak, and EQ will OHKO it. the only situations where mawile wins out are when the lando-t swaps in on a subbed maw, which then has to eat play rough and sucker punch at +0, which, will probably kill it, but if you allow mawile that setup before sending in lando-t, you're probably an idiot.

m-maw could run ice fang to rape lando-t, but in doing so, it loses out vs heatran and skarmory.

m-venusaur also resists play rough and focus punch, can play around sucker punch extremely easily, and takes neutral damage from ice fang and fire fang, gets HP fire to 3ko her and can synthesis/leech seed to fight off chip damage.

 

[Enki]

Well, Mawile is a strong mon. Why? It has a lot of positive traits. Its typing, Steel/Fairy, is very strong. It only has two weaknesses. The mega evolution improves it a lot, especially with the Attack boost. And it has pretty good bulk. It has a nice movepool, including SD and prioirty, double STAB, Knock Off and Focus Punch. Soo yeah.. Its only downside is its Speed. If Mawile gets a boost it's often GG. Not much resist Play Rough so it's easy to spam. Quagsire take 60% on a Play Rough and it has to hope for the Burn. Heatran is the best counter, but Knock Off and Focus Punch will destroy it. Things like Ferrothorn and Skarmory that resist PR will be easily taken down by Fire Fang. Offensive checks such as Keldeo and Terrakion resist Sucker Punch, but they can't switch in. Only obscure Fire types like Arcanine can take it on, but even them are SR weak and easy to beat. Mawile can beat every playstyle easily, which is why I think Mawilite should be banned.

 

[ShizukaMikudou]

So far the arguments for Mawile's Mega Stone ban have gone down like:
>Mega Mawile will switch in on a pokemon who can't really touch it
>If Mega Mawile runs Substitute, it will sub -- now can't be Will-O'd
>If Mega Mawile doesn't run Sub, it will switch out before it can be Will-O'd
>Mega Mawile runs SubPunch for Heatrans and Fire Fang for Skarmories and other steel types.
>Mega Mawile gets too many free opportunities to come in and set up a Swords Dance and begin sweeping with Sucker Punch because of its defensive typing.

Wait just a second there. Are we really concluding that Mega Mawile is broken because it runs Substitute, Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch AND Play Rough for breaking down even the most defensive of pokemon?
Are pokemon considered broken because they have a wide variety of options, all of which cannot be predicted before a Pokemon is defeated because of it?

What I'm getting at is that: the arguments, the ones trying to defend stall teams that cry a river if even one of their walls gets taken down due to unpredictability, are almost ridiculous as they seem to think Mega Mawile will run all of the above listed moves in its moveset.
Do you realize that if Mega Mawile runs SubPunch, it only has two other options? If it runs Swords Dance as well, then it only has one other option for coverage. In order for Mega Mawile to try really hard to counter Heatran with Sub Punch, it has to miss out on a ton of other options. Without Swords Dance, Sucker Punch won't OHKO a thing. Mawile may have many options, but its options individually don't offer a huge variety of coverage. Mega Mawile has coverage only in a wide variety of moves. That's a different kind of "unpredictable power" than the actually broken kinds of pokemon who need only ONE moveset to easily obliterate 90% of the meta unless very specific individual pokemon are used to deal with it, such as Mega Kangaskhan.

"Mawiles might run Fire Fang to destroy Skarmory and Ferrothorn." That's just part of the game. We give our offensive pokemon the sets to take down their walls. Like how Mixed Attacking Arcanine could run HP Ice to take down Gliscor and Landorus-T. Unpredictable sets are supposed to happen in great battles well fought. The choice to put Fire Fang on a Mawile should naturally be rewarded by Mawile ripping Ferrothorn to shreds. That is how a battle should be. The goal isn't to create a meta where everything can be safely walled. The goal is to create a fair meta where everything can be defeated, even if some strategy and thinking are needed. Things that hit hard should not be the target of banning; things that can't be taken down should be.

Looking at a realistic Mega Mawile who has only 4 moveslots, there are realistically plenty of options for counters counters.
PlayRough, IronHead, SuckerPunch, SwordsDance <-Will O Wisp, dodge Sucker Punches, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran
Substitute, Focus Punch, Play Rough, Sucker Punch <- Skarmory, Anything that can take Sucker Punches, TauntIntimidate Gyarados, Gliscor
Sub, Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Sucker Punch <- Mandibuzz, SubChandelure(or any ghost type with sub), Gyarados, Gliscor, anything that can take a Sucker Punch

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah this already isnt going too well so Ill just say mega mawile is clearly broken and deserves a ban, I dont think this will be a very close vote so I dont see the need to be constantly posting like I did in the Aegislash thread. So I will try and keep this as simple as I can, and will reply to any well constructed posts that raise a valid point.

this is just going to kind of be a stream of consciousness sort of deal so bare with me.

Mega-mawile has a stupid attack stat, like its a joke. Its attack stat puts even most of the ubers to shame, but as we know stats arent everything. So lets look at his typing steel/fairy, are you serious? that is an incredible offensive and defensive typing, he has 2 immunities and 2 weaknesses, that is really nice and it also pretty much eliminates the chance of your opponent going for outrage the entire game because that would be a free SD or sub for mawile. The whole thing with mega mawile is if it gets just ONE free turn it has now become a MAJOR issue so any time a latios uses draco meteor, something uses outrage, or he gets an intimidate off on a physical attacker, he can now go to work. His ability intimidate and his resistance to stealth rock also allows him to switch in whenever he wants and decide when he wants to mega and either sub or SD. Now lets talk about his matchup against stall/HO/balance, ok well against HO if he gets one SD up, its game over end of discussion, there is literally nothing on HO that can hang with a +2 mawile besides hoping for parahax with thundy. On stall SD fire fang set can pretty much destroy most things and if you pair that with an EQ latios to take out heatran, the game is just over, they now have literally no chance. Balance is where I think mawile is easier to handel, because they have common things like mega venusaur, heatran, landorus-t, rotom-w, etc.. and most of these are decent checks and can be switched in fairly easily. So mawile essentially destroys the 2 most popular playstyles which is enough for a ban imo.

So I will do a quick little pro and con list to maybe clear up my rant.

Reasons to ban:
1. destroys stall with little to no support
2. destroys Hyper offense with little to no support
3. Creates 50/50s with sucker punch as well as figuring out what set it is(because guessing wrong could mean game over)
4. Has no counters(not that big of a deal but still)
5. Incredible attack stat and typing allowing it free switches on common pokes in OU
6. Ability to strike fear into your opponents heart

Reasons to not ban:
1. can be handle relatively well by common cores on balance teams
2. it loses to alot of things 1v1, it pretty much needs to force something out to be most effective
3. is slow and very prone to getting burned if its the SD set.

Ummm yeah thats a good start, let me know what you think :]

Rotom-W has to be a full health and can only deal with Mawile once. If you miss Hydro Pump against SubPunch you've lost.
Mega Venu takes a ton from a boosted Iron Head and even resisted Play Rough. You need Earthquake or HP Fire to break her Subs and Sleep Powder can miss.
Heatran loses to SubPunch.
Can't calc atm, but I'm pretty sure Play Rough + Sucker Punch from SubPunch will still 2HKO or severely cripple you at -1.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Rotom-W has to be a full health and can only deal with Mawile once. If you miss Hydro Pump against SubPunch you've lost.
Mega Venu takes a ton from a boosted Iron Head and even resisted Play Rough. You need Earthquake or HP Fire to break her Subs and Sleep Powder can miss.
Heatran loses to SubPunch.
Can't calc atm, but I'm pretty sure Play Rough + Sucker Punch from SubPunch will still 2HKO or severely cripple you at -1.

Yeah if its sub punch venusaur beats it, if its not heatran beats it, rotom-w outspeeds and uses willo-wisp. The whole point is those 3 together are a common core and can definitely handle mawile, idk why you posted what you did, especially cuz I said I wanted him banned ?_?

 

[effyouzion]

answers in bold

Every Venusaur is physically defensive, especially in a VenuTran core, so iron head is a 3hko at best. CharX is usually specially defensive but if Mawile is an issue... go physically defensive.

Build your teams well and Mawile is not an issue for stall.

 

[Champ. Gary Oak]

*gasp* it dies to an SE attack. Anyway I haven't seen anyone say that mawile is uncheckable, but it is pretty much near uncounterable.



SubPunch also gives a lot of hell for stall. Sure it hits heatran and stuff but like it even hits skarm harder than fire fang ffs



Uhm, no one said that it subs directly in the face of will-o users, it subs on the switch. Also, Maw usually runs some speed anyway, at least to creep base 60s such as clefable.



Fairy is a pretty spammable type tbh



Wait, there's counters to this thing? tell me more

Subject 18 Edit: Learn to properly quote posts...

>*gasp* it dies to an SE attack. Anyway I haven't seen anyone say that mawile is uncheckable
Yes, it does, so it's obviously not as insanely bulky as everyone is making it seem. And I've seen several replies mention how huge power makes it virtually uncheckable.

>SubPunch also gives a lot of hell for stall. Sure it hits heatran and stuff but like it even hits skarm harder than fire fang ffs
>a wall breaker can break walls, and a 150BP move is stronger than a 130 BP move
ok

>Uhm, no one said that it subs directly in the face of will-o users, it subs on the switch. Also, Maw usually runs some speed anyway, at least to creep base 60s such as clefable.
I remember reading a post saying exactly that somewhere in the replies. And that is a good point, but it isn't really relevant to what I said since the slowest WOW user in OU has Base 77 speed.

>Fairy is a pretty spammable type tbh
That doesn't change the fact that its STABs are still resisted by the most common defensive type in the game.

>Wait, there's counters to this thing? tell me more
Well if you're looking for a hard counter, you might have to move outside of OU, but I've found Magnezone and Tran can almost always take care of the standard set; focus punch Mawile has always been easy for me to predict and deal with. If you find your team is weak to FP mawile, just add in Lando-T, Mega Venu, or something else of the sort.

 

[alwayswimmin]

Banning Mega Mawile would be blind sighted in my opinion. It is banning based on stats rather than calculations and usage. Skarmory-heatran core beats it, as if it subs, you got out into skarm and continually roost, passively killing it with rocky helmet.

Just saying, Skarmory can't beat SubPunch Mawile with passive damage alone because Roost outspeeds and removes Flying type, making Focus Punch SE. Your Tentacruel idea is interesting, though.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

So far the arguments for Mawile's Mega Stone ban have gone down like:
>Mega Mawile will switch in on a pokemon who can't really touch it
>If Mega Mawile runs Substitute, it will sub -- now can't be Will-O'd
>If Mega Mawile doesn't run Sub, it will switch out before it can be Will-O'd
>Mega Mawile runs SubPunch for Heatrans and Fire Fang for Skarmories and other steel types.
>Mega Mawile gets too many free opportunities to come in and set up a Swords Dance and begin sweeping with Sucker Punch because of its defensive typing.

Don't forget: highest attack stat of anything, best defensive typing, powerful priority+boosting move, etc.

When people bring up the fact it has other sets/coverage moves, they don't mean that having multiple sets or being able to hit things with a coverage move are what make it broken, they mean that, overall, there are less reliable counters to it. Heatran counters sets that don't have Knock Off or Focus Punch... but it does lose to sets that have them. So it's not always a good answer. It's the combination of its ridiculous power, priority move, AND the fact that it can screw over potential counters by carrying a coverage move (let's be real, there's only three options) or using SubPunch is what makes it suspect worthy. Like it it didn't have a good way to get around Skarmory or w/e it might not be an issue: but it does.

 

[Jirachee]

Forget about the SubPunch set, to me it has no weight in Mawile being broken or not. There is 1 set that makes it broken in my opinion, which is the Swords Dance 3 Attacks set. This set always carries SD / Play Rough / Sucker Punch, and the last attack is either Fire Fang, Knock Off, or Iron Head (my favourite being Knock Off.) That set can sweep any team, of any playstyle, which is absolutely ridiculous. The last move is rarely ever needed except against specific checks which is why I think Mawile is broken.

Play Rough + Sucker Punch is enough against most offenses because the only mons that resist Fairy+Dark are, ironically, Mawile itself and Klefki. The only mon on pure offense that will stop you is Mega Scizor which is promptly taken down by Fire Fang, and will be afraid of switching in until you show your last move because it can't be sure of the coverage you carry. Checks like Landorus-T are easy to wear down because after a little prior damage +1 Sucker Punch will take them down. Other checks like Keldeo absolutely cannot switch in which means you'll probably have to sac something to switch your check in which is stupid when dealing with something that switches in as easily as Mega Mawile.

With a balance or a stall team it might be a little easier to take on Mawile, because you have things like MVenu that can take it on a little easier, but even then they lose to the fast spread which is becoming the standard right now, because quite frankly Mawile doesn't need the HP investment. Specially Defensive Heatran might seem like a great answer until you realize that +2 Sucker Punch will OHKO it after Stealth Rock, which means you need to carry something really stupid like Will-O-Wisp to beat it, a move which is usually inferior to Toxic (on Heatran that is.) Note that the only point of carrying WoW on Heatran is to beat Mawile which is retarded. Not to mention it absolutely doesn't want to switch into Knock Off. Skarmory / Ferrothorn are not going to do much against it because they can't take Fire Fangs or +2 Knock Offs very well. It's very easy for Mawile to grab a Swords Dance against these teams not just once in a game, but multiple times, which means you'll have to deal with a boosted Mawile very often.

Not only are Mawile's offensive strengths stellar, but it requires 0 support to do its job, it's incredibly reliable, and can offer great perks to its team. While using something like Charizard-Y means that you'll have to deal with an SR weak Pokemon and something that doesn't check a lot of threats, putting Mawile on your team requires 0 afterthought because its weaknesses are extremely easy to cover, and its bulk and defensive typing allows it to check a fuckton of threats, both Offensive and Defensive which is quite ridiculous.

I believe that Mega Mawile is the most broken Pokemon in OU since Mega Lucario and that it fully deserves a ban. Once we get rid of this we'll have finally gotten rid of all the obvious Ubers (yay!)

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah if its sub punch venusaur beats it, if its not heatran beats it, rotom-w outspeeds and uses willo-wisp. The whole point is those 3 together are a common core and can definitely handle mawile, idk why you posted what you did, especially cuz I said I wanted him banned ?_?

I know you're pro-ban, I just wanted to point out that they are all screwed by SubPunch (Venu has to take a hit as it breaks the Sub and then you have prediction shenanigans concerning whether Mawile will stay in or not). That core is also single-handedly beaten by Kyurem-B, who can soften up or beat some of Mega Mawile's checks depending on the set it runs.

 

[Yuy]

It's a seriously thin line we've been walking since back to Genesect(who I think "needed to go" tbh). Are we going to eliminate all sweepers and pokes who can run a variety of movesets or are we going to embrace the sweeper role in poke'mon and the fact it's seen a power creep, and that variety in movesets and unpredictability is also a part of the game?

 

[AM]

It's a seriously thin line we've been walking since back to Genesect(who I think "needed to go" tbh). Are we going to eliminate all sweepers and pokes who can run a variety of movesets or are we going to embrace the sweeper role in poke'mon and the fact it's seen a power creep, and that variety in movesets and unpredictability is also a part of the game?

The problem isn't so much all the points you stated, the issue is more of what is an acceptable level of power creep at this point in time. You are indeed right though, versatility doesn't equal broken then again it's subjective depending on the person you are asking. I firmly believe that M-Mawile is not an acceptable level of power creep in the OU tier at this point in time. That basically sums up most of my ideas of banning M-Mawile in a nutshell.

 

[JMach]

There's no way Mega Mawile is ban-worthy. Honestly it's just another strong mega. There are plenty of ways to play around it and it takes brains to consistently use it effectively IMO.

Mega Luke and Mega Gengar were BROKEN. Luke is just as potent on both attacking sides, blisteringly quick WITH PRIORITY and has a movepool that's pure insanity, especially with Adaptability.

Mega Gengar could just get rid of shit with the click of it's fingers. Simple as that!

Megawile isn't in the same league at all IMO. It isn't broken. It's just good.

P.s. Anyone complaining about "50/50s" and sucker punch can go and sit in the corner.

 

[Zapdos from [Hero]]

The logic of the suspects here is beyond me. It seems to me like an elimination of any common stall/wallbreakers. I'm adamantly against any bans in XY OU that go further than DeoS and Genesect (I'm pro-genesect though but it's at least understandable). The main argument against Aegislash was that it has no counters. I'm not going to reiterate the non-banworthyness of Aegislash because I can't change it. NO COUNTERS =/= BROKEN The tier needs good wallbreakers. Try to deny it, you can't. It's a fact that XY OU would become much too defensive if we ban anything that has wallbreaker potential and can go through stall. Offensive teams have clear ways to defeat Mega Mawile which are revenging by living +2 Sucker and doing good damage. no ban what a question.

(If someone cares, I won't participate in the vote because I'm not quite active here and on PSD)

 

[Yuy]

There's no way Mega Mawile is ban-worthy. Honestly it's just another strong mega. There are plenty of ways to play around it and it takes brains to consistently use it effectively IMO.

Mega Luke and Mega Gengar were BROKEN. Luke is just as potent on both attacking sides, blisteringly quick WITH PRIORITY and has a movepool that's pure insanity, especially with Adaptability.

Mega Gengar could just get rid of shit with the click of it's fingers. Simple as that!

Megawile isn't in the same league at all IMO. It isn't broken. It's just good.

P.s. Anyone complaining about "50/50s" and sucker punch can go and sit in the corner.

This is what I think mostly. Every team is going to have a powerful mega to use, and probably a specs mon or a CB mon. "It's poke'mon" in XY OU and neutering the game won't change that, we'd simply be back tracking trying to make gen 4 or gen 5 again.

M-Mawile is another strong mon that's difficult to take out who can sweep, and there are plenty of them. You can always play gen 5 instead if you want but this is how gen 6 happened to be and changing that is a lost cause.

 

[Cimson strikes]

Well I still think its not broken its weak to status(mainly burns wich is common) pokemon like heatran and rotom-w often carry WoW wich Jirachee btw WoW on heatran is not retarded since common phisical atta ker love switching into heatran only to get screwed by a burn like terrakion and chomp heck even keldeo doenst like the burn also it jas an over-reliance to sucker punch wich is a drawback of his more than a pro since it doesnt hit you if you dont attack his low speed is anothet thing wich against other priority users sucker punch will just fail like vs mega scizor BP goes first so SP fails anx yes i know it learns fire fang but scizors(mega) are almost ALWAYS paired with either rotom-w or heatran in wich case theyll be able to handle it once they WoW (though its harder for the former to switch in) again its easy to play around it also bulky attackers can usually take a SP and attack it like chomp(with some defense investment) can EQ it while taking the SP or terrakion (wich can take a SP obviously and take it out after mawile has been damaged) etc.... Also its common for venusaur(mega to carry HP Fire and or leech seed wich with synthesis can handle mawile(mega) so no ban for mawilite i think ive posted arguable posts in this thread with reasons to not banning mawilite please dont ban it remember new megas are coming as well so lati twins will dominate if we ban this guy as it will be their most solid offensive check besides bisharp wich kinda lost its main niche (sorta)

 

[Swagata]

Chill, MegaMawile isn't banned yet, its only being suspected. If you think it shouldn't be then go get reqs instead of ranting about it here.

 

[Karxrida]

It's a seriously thin line we've been walking since back to Genesect(who I think "needed to go" tbh). Are we going to eliminate all sweepers and pokes who can run a variety of movesets or are we going to embrace the sweeper role in poke'mon and the fact it's seen a power creep, and that variety in movesets and unpredictability is also a part of the game?

Can we please stop with this Slippery Slope bullshit? It's a logical fallacy and I'm tired of hearing it very time we test something.

 

[NeoFlame]

mawile is one of my favorite pokemon, so its gonna be sad to see this one go. but yeah, shes extremely OP. huge power effectively giver her a base attack well over 200, so nothing will enjoy taking a resisted hit. surprise burns and intimidate Mons can help beat it usually, but she can either just switch out or swords dance to nullify it. and that's assuming the player doesn't predict the burn/switch. virtually no viable counters, and revenge killing is out the window.

 

[Zebstrika]

So we all know how Mawile has almost no hard counters. Not an inherently broken trait, after all, Mew has no hard counters, you can pick out a move in its movepool to take down any pokemon if you wish. But the big difference is Mawile has almost no hard counters...while running a single set (ok 2 sets, but they both, individually, are still almost impossible to counter). Mew on the other hand, you can scout, once you do, it's relatively easy to counter. Mawile also has a very spammable stab, basically the only pokemon that can take Play Rough without a resistance are Landorus-T, who has no recovery, and Hippowdon, who only just barely can take it with full physical defense EVs. That means that it's difficult to predict your way into a good switch in; the Mawile user knows you are limited to Play Rough resists making it easier to predict accordingly, choose correct coverage moves, etc.

Checking Mawile might be easier, but I think it's unhealthy to simply accept that we will probably lose a pokemon every time it gets in. Especially considering that preventing it from switching in isn't as simple as "keep the attacks going, because it has crap bulk and no resistances", because, well, it doesn't have crap bulk and it has several resistances. It's also unreasonable to expect to have Mawile checks in at all times, because most of the meta does not check Mawile. Of course thanks to swords dance and sucker punch even if you sacrifice a pokemon you're not out of the woods yet.

It's also unhealthy to be limited to about 5 hard counters to each set. If you don't see why, pretend there are six other Mega Mawiles, but of different types (so zard x, pinsir, zard y, landorus, heracross, and gardevoir) each of them can run a set with 5 different hard counters. You're now forced to pick a pokemon that you will not have a hard counter for, since it's unlikely there will be a lot of overlap between counters. If there is any overlap you'll see those pokemon on basically every stall team (hello Chansey), since there's so little overlap, and the teams can't afford to go saccing things for switch ins all the time.

 

[AM]

The logic of the suspects here is beyond me. It seems to me like an elimination of any common stall/wallbreakers. Some may remember I trolled in the last suspect thread, but I'm not going to repeat this here. I'm adamantly against any bans in XY OU that go further than DeoS and Genesect (I'm pro-genesect though but it's at least understandable). The main argument against Aegislash was that it has no counters. I'm not going to reiterate the non-banworthyness of Aegislash because I can't change it. NO COUNTERS =/= BROKEN The tier needs good wallbreakers. Try to deny it, you can't. It's a fact that XY OU would become much too defensive if we ban anything that has wallbreaker potential and can go through stall. Offensive teams have clear ways to defeat Mega Mawile which are revenging by living +2 Sucker and doing good damage. Hell no ban.

(If someone cares, I won't participate in the vote because I'm not quite active here and on PSD)

This is what I think mostly. Every team is going to have a powerful mega to use, and probably a specs mon or a CB mon. "It's poke'mon" in XY OU and neutering the game won't change that, we'd simply be back tracking trying to make gen 4 or gen 5 again.

M-Mawile is another strong mon that's difficult to take out who can sweep, and there are plenty of them. You can always play gen 5 instead if you want but this is how gen 6 happened to be and changing that is a lost cause.

Ok so to answer Zapdos, you do realize that M-Cham, M-Hera, and M-Garde have been coming up as very solid wallbreakers, if not fantastic. You're really exaggerating on the lack of wallbreakers when we have those three I mentioned alone along with things like Lando-I and Char-Y just to name a couple of more, with plenty of others. "Try to deny it you can't" No Counters =/= broken when the no counter argument can be mitigated at the very least from a defensive position. If something is allowed to perpetually just break the tier single handedly with little to no support, that's not healthy. Not going to even answer a rebuttal on the whole offensive teams having to survive a +2 sucker punch from m-mawile. That argument was so flawed and I rather not use a bunch of pointless calcs when we the player base, at least I hope so, understand how strong M-Mawile is already.

As for Yuy, yes every team is going to have powerful megas mostly no arguing that. Taking out a clearly broken element that encourages more competitiveness and thought process is not neutering the meta game it's in the direction of enhancing it whether you believe it or not. Yeah we're not going back to Gen 4 or 5, no perma weather bs and other nonsense from Gen 5 anyways. Most people have come to terms of the power creep involved in this generation and have gotten accustomed to it for the most part. It's only an issue for some things that basically control the tier within itself, which was an argument that makes sense similar to things like Aegislash.

 

[Karxrida]

What I don't get is why everyone is ranting without requirements. We'll take you seriously once you prove to us that you can play ou sufficiently enough to vote for this very important suspect.

Yeah, cause guys CTC and Jukain are complete nubs that have no experience. Amiright?

The test literally just started and just because someone doesn't have reqs doesn't mean we should automatically dismiss their opinion.

Only ~75 people vote anyway, so should we just ignore the people who didn't ladder regardless of the legitimacy of any points they make?

 

[Cimson strikes]

well the problem isnt getting reqs honestly thats the easy part the hard part is getting everyone(the mayority) to understand its not broken i mean the metagame is evolving so you should expect the megas to hit hard also id just wish that gamefreak made new walls with excelent defensive stats they basically only gave us venusaur (mega) :\

PS:Im sorry for any mispelling im on my phone so ... Yeah