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Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]
- Thread starter Hugendugen
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In my opinion, the Gengarite is not an uncompetitive element of the Ubers metagame that threatens its integrity within the current paradigm of the Ubers tier. For so I'm against the Gengarite getting banned, and as a byproduct, I'm also against Mega-Gengar being banned either through the banning of Shadow Tag or the item itself.
My reasoning states that Shadow Tag is a somewhat broken ability with the right usage. Pairing this with Gengar's versability and it's movepool, type and speed after evolving probably bring out the best showcase of the ability at its full potential. Based on the skill of its user and the opponent, Mega-Gengar can bring either a checkmate position by eliminating a crucial team member of the opposite team or to the contrary thought, be a pretty useless Pokemon throughout the match, this is not uncompetitive under this definition:
Because in order for Gengar to play "It's A Trap" with any Pokemon it needs a turn of Mega Evolution, this hindering the complete concept as he cannot trap his targets without the previous requirement and he's prone to revenge killing based on below average bulk (for Uber standards) before accomplishing anything making it a requirement for a desired target to stay on its own choice. Thus, through prediction in the form of both switches and team's solutions, can be easily beaten to the point where it may not even be able to take a target down with it, or through a Perish Game. Being under Shadow Tag never hinders your ability to attack, Taunt, use phazing moves or to even use moves like U-Turn or Volt Switch. If any of your teammates was checked and ruled by Gengar's games, it's on your own power to play around its mind games even as just switching in and out on the right moment. This does not hinder competition, but rather brings a layer of difficulty that calls to use skill to win instead of simple "reliable answers" which truly don't really exist to beat the Gengarite user, and not only skill, but also proper team building as overcentralization or overpower are not the topics to question here. As you cannot rely to come to a game lacking any answers or playarounds and then call it an uncompetitive force.
During my whole period of testing, Mega Gengar (Gengarite) never proved to be a problem to me to the point where it made the game uncompetitive. This can be attributed perhaps at my team being fully offensively oriented implying not a single member on it could not kill/hinder Gengar on the switch or play against it before accomplishing something. And also through a simple revenge killer I could flop any attempts for it to take down any teammates using status moves. His attacks never had the enough power to prove threatening enough and its speed tier was never good enough to cause me enough problems.
My reasoning states that Shadow Tag is a somewhat broken ability with the right usage. Pairing this with Gengar's versability and it's movepool, type and speed after evolving probably bring out the best showcase of the ability at its full potential. Based on the skill of its user and the opponent, Mega-Gengar can bring either a checkmate position by eliminating a crucial team member of the opposite team or to the contrary thought, be a pretty useless Pokemon throughout the match, this is not uncompetitive under this definition:
Because in order for Gengar to play "
During my whole period of testing, Mega Gengar (Gengarite) never proved to be a problem to me to the point where it made the game uncompetitive. This can be attributed perhaps at my team being fully offensively oriented implying not a single member on it could not kill/hinder Gengar on the switch or play against it before accomplishing something. And also through a simple revenge killer I could flop any attempts for it to take down any teammates using status moves. His attacks never had the enough power to prove threatening enough and its speed tier was never good enough to cause me enough problems.
It doesnt necessarily take control out of the players hands. It makes it so that way you have to pretty much bring in Gengar and then Mega-Gengar in without taking any damage other wise a set like sub disable or perish trap is not going to work. To be able to bring in Gengar to Mega evolve without taking any damage either requires a good double which is always risky or to sack something. Either way these are both things to take into account when considering Gengar for the suspect test. And I believe UmbreonEternals point is that before the mega evo, Gengar is pretty frail and since everything is hitting hard in Ubers it even takes 51%ish from a resisted Xerneas Moonblast.
I'm not quite at reqs yet (around 1800 coil after some 40 or so games), and I'm new to Ubers as a whole, but I feel like Shadow Tag is the real culprit here, not just Mega Gengar. Gothitelle can be just as bad, worse for some teams even, than Mega Gengar. That free turn to switch out prior to Mega Evolving makes a big difference.
Either way, Shadow Tag seems pretty uncompetitive. It removes a lot of the skill an opponent can have by limiting their switches, and most teams have at least one, if not multiple, pokemon that can be weak to trappers.
I'm going to be voting ban if only so it can proceed to a Shadow Tag suspect rather than just a Gengarite suspect.
Either way, Shadow Tag seems pretty uncompetitive. It removes a lot of the skill an opponent can have by limiting their switches, and most teams have at least one, if not multiple, pokemon that can be weak to trappers.
I'm going to be voting ban if only so it can proceed to a Shadow Tag suspect rather than just a Gengarite suspect.
Like Minority Suspect said a couple of posts above, voting to ban Mega Gengar to get a STag suspect isnt a good way to go about it. If Shadow Tag is actually uncompetative, which I think that it might hit that line with goth, then a suspect test for it will come about on its own. So if you like you said in your post dont think Mega-Gengar is uncompetative then you should vote not to ban. Also I think that banning Mega Gengar sets a precedent for other people clamoring to ban various other things, and uncompetative will become a buzzword for people. I know that Mega Gengar will be effectively banned if Shadow Tag is banned, but I think its better to wait until there is a Shadow Tag suspect before even thinking about banning anything.
Well actually it kinda does have to take control out of the players hands because that's the definition of uncompetitive...
EDIT: OK I don't mean to be too aggressive I'm just saying. Even at the tl;dr of his post, he basically was treating it like an OU suspect and I am seriously fed up with everyone treating like that.
EDIT 2: Montsegur I get your point but 50/50's are a legitimate point. It's actually the "Gengar is not good enough, too frail, etc." stuff that I don't like since it is a brokenness point as opposed to an uncompetitiveness one.
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I agree that the part about the 50/50 was a lot like an OU suspect test, which some people are treating it as such. Re-reading through the original post there were a couple of paragraphs that I liked and the rest I could see coming off as an OU suspect test. I'll quote the paragraphs I liked and what I think conveyed most what he was trying to say.
While I dont know to much about OU suspects these three paragraphs dont have anything referring to broken or 50/50, and I feel highlight some important parts about Gengar.
The OP specifies that should Gengarite be banned, a suspect test on Shadow Tag will follow. And under the circumstance that Gengarite isn't banned, Shadow Tag is suspected and banned, Gengarite is banned by extension since Mega Gengar can only have Shadow Tag barring Entrainment and other shenanigans like that.
Yes, I know that... I'm saying that a better way to go about doing it is to not ban Mega-Gengar and then ban STag. Also I believe that as a user of STag Mega-Gengar is not uncompetative.
I agree that Shadow Tag should have been suspected first but this is how it was decided to be handled, so we gotta follow along eith their plan.
And I agree that gengar isn't uncompetitive...the first time it comes in, pre-mega evolve. But then we get a problem. It doesn't have to mega evolve every time it comes in. So if you switch out on the vulnerable turn, he mega evolves for free then switches out. If you stay in, he mega evolves anyways and takes out your now trapped target, as was his intention in the first place. From that point on, you literally can never have a pokemon out that would lose to Mega Gengar's set, or else he'll just eat it alive. Same as the other trappers.
Thats the thing though, like Minority Suspect said above, that even if Mega-Gengar does not get banned then if STag is truly uncompetative than it will be suspected regardless. It is just guaranteed to be suspected if Mega-Gengar is banned. You and others need to stop looking at this suspect test as a means to an end to get STag tested. Vote in this suspect on whether or not Mega-Gengar is uncompetative and not if STag as a whole is. Because there is a pretty big difference between whether or not an ability or a pokemon is banned. Not to mention as a user Gengar needs a turn to Mega evolve and have the ability to trap anything.
Except Mega Gengar doesn't get another ability, so unlike Smeargle with Moody, for example, if the ability is banned the item is banned, period. The ability is the real issue, yes. That doesn't mean Mega Gengar isn't uncompetitive. Yes, if it had a different ability, it wouldnt be uncompetitive. But it has shadow tag and so it is. And that turn is incredibly easy to get. Just bring Gengar in on obvious trapping targets it would want to trap anyways. I explained in my post above that free turn doesn't matter since it doesn't need to mega evolve every single time.
Can you maybe post some replays of you getting these free turns, because in my experience vs offense that free turn can make a huge difference in the outcome of a battle. And you are making it seem like getting a free turn is an inconsequential thing. Also I understand that Mega Gengar would end up being banned anyways as a result of STag getting banned. But like I said in my above post, I think that banning a pokemon sets a precedent for other bans in Ubers (which while it has been claimed it wont, I think that people will start throwing around words like uncompetative when talking about a pokemon they want to get banned in Ubers), however if an ability where to be banned no precedent would be set and if it just so happened that a pokemon could not be used because of said ability than so be it.
Technically it would be an item being banned, not a pokemon. Regular Gengar would still be useable.
I cannot in fact provide replays, as I'm on mobile and don't happen to have any in particular, so I'd have to sort through other player's replays.
Yes, offensive teams are the hardest for Gengar to get the free turn against, but unless every single one of your pokemon on your offensive team can beat Gengar 1v1, he will find a way to mega evolve. And against balanced/bulky teams, or stall teams, it's significantly easier to get the free turn.
Wrong. Mega Gengar is a Pokemon therefore banning Gengarite is banning an item and a Pokemon.
Incorrect. All that would be banned is Gengarite. You can still use Gengar without his Mega stone. Mega Gengar cannot exist without Gengar. They're the same pokemon.
Gengarite is equivalent to the Griseous Orb, with it your Pokemon can change form and have new stats, animations and abilities. The change is far to fundamental for it be seen as giving Gengar a new item, so banning Mega-Gengar is banning a Pokemon and not a item.
Anyway I know some parts of my post may have come out of a OU suspect test, but I used them to reinforce my main argument; Mega-Gengar is a high risk high reward mon. For Gengar to be un-competitive your opponent must have few viable options to deal with it (which is the case for swagger, bp, OHKO, sleep and elevation teams), but as I already said there are a good number of things you can do. While Gengar does take control out of your opponents hand once it gets going, everything up to that point is in your control and a few good moves will make sure Gengar is either brought out crippled or with a sacrificed mon prior to its switch in. If you have killed a mon to bring out Gengar (who often has to kill or at least cripple itself to do its job) then the price paid to trap and kill becomes very high and may no longer be worth the reward. And even then you may end up empty handed. 50/50s or roar/U-turn etc may mean you end up with no kill and you have lost your Mega (arguably the best member on your team) for nothing. I have seen this happen several times and the failure to trap and kill often results in that player losing the match.
Oh and I forgot to say before but you can add priority to the list of things that destroy Mega-Gengar, even if its at max health. This is because you can hit Gengar directly twice during perish-song (once when it uses perish song and again when it tries to sub) and take it out. Taunt+density bond also fails as you can hit it before it uses destiny bond. Simply attack, use non attacking moves until they taunt and then attack again to kill Gengar prior to it using destiny bond. I lost count of the number of times Gengar dies to my defog Scizor because of this. Sure you can try disable but the chance of disabling the wrong move (more 50/50s) makes it very risky.
What I am trying to say out of all of this is that Gengar is very dangerous on paper, but in practice there are numerous of things that can go wrong and a lot of competitive team-building options exist that make Gengar no longer a threat to your team. I do not see Gengar as broken by Uber standards and I especially don't see it as un-competitive.
Anyway I know some parts of my post may have come out of a OU suspect test, but I used them to reinforce my main argument; Mega-Gengar is a high risk high reward mon. For Gengar to be un-competitive your opponent must have few viable options to deal with it (which is the case for swagger, bp, OHKO, sleep and elevation teams), but as I already said there are a good number of things you can do. While Gengar does take control out of your opponents hand once it gets going, everything up to that point is in your control and a few good moves will make sure Gengar is either brought out crippled or with a sacrificed mon prior to its switch in. If you have killed a mon to bring out Gengar (who often has to kill or at least cripple itself to do its job) then the price paid to trap and kill becomes very high and may no longer be worth the reward. And even then you may end up empty handed. 50/50s or roar/U-turn etc may mean you end up with no kill and you have lost your Mega (arguably the best member on your team) for nothing. I have seen this happen several times and the failure to trap and kill often results in that player losing the match.
Oh and I forgot to say before but you can add priority to the list of things that destroy Mega-Gengar, even if its at max health. This is because you can hit Gengar directly twice during perish-song (once when it uses perish song and again when it tries to sub) and take it out. Taunt+density bond also fails as you can hit it before it uses destiny bond. Simply attack, use non attacking moves until they taunt and then attack again to kill Gengar prior to it using destiny bond. I lost count of the number of times Gengar dies to my defog Scizor because of this. Sure you can try disable but the chance of disabling the wrong move (more 50/50s) makes it very risky.
What I am trying to say out of all of this is that Gengar is very dangerous on paper, but in practice there are numerous of things that can go wrong and a lot of competitive team-building options exist that make Gengar no longer a threat to your team. I do not see Gengar as broken by Uber standards and I especially don't see it as un-competitive.
There's a difference between gira-o and mega gengar and that's gira-o starts a battle as a gira-o as opposed to mega gengar which needs a turn to mega evolve into it. So no banning gengarite is not a ban on gengar itself but rather banning a set(s) of gengar as opposed to the actual mon.
No clue why people are so hung up on the perish song set for mega gengar as their main basis for determining how broke it is or not when that isn't even the most threatening set (unless you're running full bp in which case fuck offensive psong).
Also on a unrelated note, Hugendugen and Fireburn will you be using paragraphs as a way to filter out votes? or will you simply be mandating us to type out a paragraph alongside our vote but the contents of the paragraphs are ultimately irrelevant to the status of our vote.
It doesn't matter. Mega Gengar is still a forme, and formes are considered mons under smogon policy/species clause. Yes, you are technically only banning the item - but as prior mentioned, you could also technically ban the use of Giratnia's Griseous Orb, or the use of a Giratina without it, and that would still be a ban on Giratina/Giratina-O. Even if requires a turn to activate the Mega Evolution, it is still a forme under any possible definition (different name, different appearance, different stats, and even different ability. All mega evolutions share the first three, and all formes share the second.) - and by extension, banning Gengarite is a ban on Mega Gengar, and thus a ban on a pokemon.
You can try to twist the wording all you want, Haruno, but at the end of the day this suspect test is a question of banning a Pokemon (forme), in this case Mega Gengar. Forme changing mid-battle is hardly a first for Pokemon anyways - Cherrim, Darmantian, Castform, Meloetta, Aegislash, and Shaymin already showcase this mechanic. Simply because the forme switch has to occur in-battle and is purely optional does not make it any less of a forme.
Yes, this post does assume that mega evolution = forme, but let's face it they basically are just fancy formes.
Your last line entirely sums up why it is relevant.
This isn't a question of banning an item, it's a question of banning Mega Gengar, and the entire point of the suspect test is "whether or not we should ban Mega Gengar." Just because the way that a possible ban has been chosen to be worded doesn't change what the ultimate goal/outcome will be - and banning a mon is a whole different can of beans then banning an item (see: soul dew).
edit: To put it in other words, my argument is that your definition of the ban is misleading, because banning a individual mon has a far different perception then banning a item does - especially given that I am very much against the ban due to what it represents - a possible future of Smogon where an individual mon is entirely unplayable in any tier, and was specifically banned from Ubers. Aka the banlist. The pro-ban side would rather see this as a tier, and I can respect that, but that's not the future I want for ubers.
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Alright seriously. I get why it is relevant, as for setting precedence and stuff, but I mean, at the end of the day we have to realize that the effect is the same, and thus it sets the same precedence. I'll give an analogy.
Lets say there is a gun that the government needs to make illegal. This gun can only use a specific type of ammunition also. However, since this is the first weapon to be banned, and the citizens do not want a precedence set so that other weapons are not banned because they like their weapons. The government has two options. They can simply ban the gun itself, or alternately, they can ban the ammunition. However, whichever one they ban, it still sets a precedence does it not? Both would be under some umbrella category, something like "Weapon Control Laws" or to that effect.
My point is, whether we ban a mon, a forme of a mon, or a means of accessing a mon, we are going to ultimately feel the same about it in regards to precedence setting.
Banning Gengarite is banning an item and a Pokemon, Ubers is a ban list and a tier, light is a particle and a wave. The fact that people try to argue it is only one or the other blow me away more than Hurricane Mewtwo.
Just imagine if OU said "We're tired of banning Pokemon, so instead we are going to ban stuff that starts with the four letter combination Deox, that way we'll only be banning letters and not any Pokemon, even though we are. We can also ban having steel type on Mawile that way again we don't have to ban a Pokemon but a type. What a great thing we have discovered, I doubt anyone will catch on and in fact I bet we'll have players defend us!"
Just imagine if OU said "We're tired of banning Pokemon, so instead we are going to ban stuff that starts with the four letter combination Deox, that way we'll only be banning letters and not any Pokemon, even though we are. We can also ban having steel type on Mawile that way again we don't have to ban a Pokemon but a type. What a great thing we have discovered, I doubt anyone will catch on and in fact I bet we'll have players defend us!"
We get it, you're trying not to have a precident set for a pokemon being banned from the banlist. But at the same time, we have a guranteed suspect test of Shadow Tag, the real culprit, if we ban Gengarite. If you are of the opinion that Shadow Tag is fundamentally uncompetitive like Moody, then the surest way to having it dealt with is to start by banning Gengarite. Period. If there was an option of "Don't ban Gengarite but instead suspect Shadow Tag" many of us on the pro-ban side would take it. Unfortunately that's not an option that has been presented, the options are "ban" or " no ban" with "ban" leading to a suspect test of the real issue.
While its likely Shadow Tag is going to be suspected either way, it hasn't been confirmed. It has been confirmed that banning Gengarite will lead to the Shadow Tag suspect though, so that's the route many of us are going to take. Especially as Gengarite would be banned from use if a Shadow Tag clause were to ever be implemented anyways. The precedent set would be "we were given an option with no actual collateral damage besides the pokemon involved that was guaranteed to let us tackle the real issue, under which that pokemon would have been hit as collateral anyways."
We're just playing with the hand we were dealt with, blame the dealer for not giving us a better set of cards.
You've gotten the correct amount of coil and your GXE doesnt matter. You should post that picture here and confirm your alt for the suspect test.
I will be voting against a Gengarite ban for a few reasons. For starters, a lot of the discussion that I see regarding Mega Gengar comes from its ability Shadow Tag, which already raises a red flag and makes me question why we are specifically focusing on Mega Gengar and not Shadow Tag as a whole. What is it about Mega Gengar's Shadow Tag that sets it apart from Wobb or Gothitelle? I see many people say Mega Gengar is broken because it "guarantees a kill", but the same can be said for Wobb or Goth, so that logic is wrong. Others have mentioned its because it has the ability ability to run sets like Perish Song, which I honestly feel are only being used to exacerbate the "uncompetitiveness" of Mega Gengar.
Anyways, I know the main reason people consider Mega Gengar broken is because it has access to Taunt + Destiny Bond, which no doubt is a good combination of moves. But what would happen if we removed Shadow Tag from a Mega Gengar with Taunt + Destiny Bond? Nobody would give it a second look. Sure, you would have the cool niche of a ground immunity and a strong poison STAB, so I'm sure it would get some use in Ubers (and possibly OU if it was allowed), but it has now lost its absolutely BEST quality. A quality that is NOT UNIQUE to Mega Gengar.
With that being said, I don't think Shadow Tag is broken either. While at one point I believed it was, after having the ability allowed in Ubers for the past 4 generations, you have no excuse but to adjust to it. Too many people that are pro-Gengarite ban will shift their ideology into now focusing strictly on a Shadow Tag ban, despite NEVER complaining about it before, just for the sake of removing Mega Gengar from the tier.
And as others have mentioned, we need to stop with the buzzwords. Whether or not they are "defined" or not is asinine. They are stupid. Secondly, I am one of those people that considers Ubers a ban list before a tier, and therefore see no reason why we should remove Mega Gengar from the tier OR remove Shadow Tag despite how frustrating it may be to play. Shadow Tag or Mega Gengar or whatever are not the same as as Moody, Evasion, OHKO, whatever clause. If anything can be easily labeled as uncompetitive, it's those.
Anyways, I know the main reason people consider Mega Gengar broken is because it has access to Taunt + Destiny Bond, which no doubt is a good combination of moves. But what would happen if we removed Shadow Tag from a Mega Gengar with Taunt + Destiny Bond? Nobody would give it a second look. Sure, you would have the cool niche of a ground immunity and a strong poison STAB, so I'm sure it would get some use in Ubers (and possibly OU if it was allowed), but it has now lost its absolutely BEST quality. A quality that is NOT UNIQUE to Mega Gengar.
With that being said, I don't think Shadow Tag is broken either. While at one point I believed it was, after having the ability allowed in Ubers for the past 4 generations, you have no excuse but to adjust to it. Too many people that are pro-Gengarite ban will shift their ideology into now focusing strictly on a Shadow Tag ban, despite NEVER complaining about it before, just for the sake of removing Mega Gengar from the tier.
And as others have mentioned, we need to stop with the buzzwords. Whether or not they are "defined" or not is asinine. They are stupid. Secondly, I am one of those people that considers Ubers a ban list before a tier, and therefore see no reason why we should remove Mega Gengar from the tier OR remove Shadow Tag despite how frustrating it may be to play. Shadow Tag or Mega Gengar or whatever are not the same as as Moody, Evasion, OHKO, whatever clause. If anything can be easily labeled as uncompetitive, it's those.
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