Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

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Minority

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therefore, if you are going to argue for shadow tag to stay, you either need to argue that it should be removed from official tournaments so you can play with every toy there is, or that it does not turn the tier into a matchup oriented shitfest in games it is present.
Unfortuantely, the status quo is that Shadow Tag is allowed in Ubers and is a competitive ability until proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it is uncompetitive, bro, since you're the one asking for the ban.
You can't dismiss us and say we haven't proven anything as justification for a ban when the burden of proof lies on you. Also XY Ubers is insanely matchup reliant with or without Mega Gengar. Try again.
 
You can't dismiss us and say we haven't proven anything as justification for a ban when the burden of proof lies on you. Also XY Ubers is insanely matchup reliant with or without Mega Gengar. Try again.
At the same time, there's no denying that people on the pro-ban side have provided strong evidence as to why we think Gengar is broken. Sure, Ubers has always been match up reliant but Gengar amplifies this by nullifying certain mons on an opponent's team. It fucks over team matchup because even if an opponent's team has a decent matchup, Gengar can remove checks and counters for a sweeper on a whim. It can't really be played around like some other shit like Xerneas/Ogre/insert mon here because STag's trapping effect. Even if you manage to get the double switch correctly and go into your Pursuit trapper, you're presented with a 50/50 (which, like the subject of matchup, is a removal of skill). It's pretty stupid that the most "reliable" way of dealing with Gengar is to having to depend on situations that don't involve skill whatsoever
 
Better late than never: I'm going to have to stay with no ban, nothing has convinced me that Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag is truly breaking the tier or horribly cancerous to the metagame. To me it's nowhere near uncompetitive enough to ban from the tier that's supposed to be full of broken shit. Getting rid of things like Swagger makes sense because it just turns the game into a dice roll, but trapping things with Shadow Tag takes at least some degree of thinking and strategy to use and that should keep it within the boundaries of what's allowed in Ubers. Gengar itself isn't a flawless Pokemon either, between needing a turn to mega evolve and all the powerful, bulky attackers in the tier that scare it away or hit it hard, it doesn't always manage to do its job easily and consistently as something broken in Ubers should be able to do. Again I think this kind of flaw keeps it within the boundaries of Ubers.

And while it's been said before and some people find it irrelevant, I really don't like the idea of a Pokemon being unplayable in every singles tier (yes megas are basically individual forms, let's not kid ourselves) as it does ruin one of the main purposes of the tier system. Maybe when some incredible 680 BST legendary with the perfect movepool gets Shadow Tag or something that utterly ruins the tier I'd support that precedent being set, but I would hate to see it happen for borderline cases like Mega Gengar. As things are right now, I'd like Ubers to stay as the banlist that only bans things that are either luck based or cause the metagame to actually be unplayable.
 
I do not think that Mega-Gengar needs to go. There are several reasons for me to claim this statement. First, Gengar alone isn't the bulkiest Pokemon around so it doesn't want to get hit at all. (maybe by an Bug- or Poison Attack) Second, I don't like the idea of banning a Poke from every tier. Nintendo has made these things, so that we can use them. It's ok if Swagger or OHKO-moves are banned, but banning a Pokemon from the entire Metagame, just because it has a ability, that can cause some Teams trouble is not the right thing to do.(that's why we have the tiering system)
And on a site note, if we ban everything based on RNG, then there would be a lot of things that we aren't able to use, for example: Paralysis. (''Ban it, because there is a chance that you won't be able to attack during this turn.'')
 
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I do not think that Mega-Gengar needs to go. There are several reasons for me to claim this statement. First, Gengar alone isn't the bulkiest Pokemon around so it doesn't want to get hit at all. (maybe by an Bug- or Poison Attack) Second, I don't like the idea of banning a Poke from every tier. Nintendo has made these things, so that we can use them. It's ok if Swagger or OHKO-moves are banned, but banning a Pokemon from the entire Metagame, just because it has a ability, that can cause some Teams trouble is not the right thing to do.(that's why we have the tiering system)
And on a site note, if we ban everything based on RNG, then there would be a lot of things that we aren't able to use, for example: Paralysis. (''Ban it, because there is a chance that you won't be able to attack during this turn.'')
Mega Gengar usually doesn't rely on its bulk (It has 60/80/95 which is actually pretty decent), so saying that it doesn't need to go just because it's not as bulky as most of the Ubers Pokémon isn't a valid statement. Second, it doesn't make sense to just follow what Nintendo did, and if you see the banlist from OU you can see that a lot of Pokémon that can't be used aren't legendaries (which are the standards that GF use) so saying that we can't ban a Pokémon just because we aren't supposed to ban it "from the entire metagame" doesn't make any sense, also can you be clear and tell us why can banning MGengar cause trouble to some teams? And as a response to your side note: what you said is related to what you called "RNG" which isn't related to MGengar at all, unlike Swagger Shadow Tag isn't totally luck based but it prevents switching which is a crucial thing as switching is one of the most important stuff in every battle. I'm sorry if I went a little bit off topic but it should've been done.
 

BKC

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You can't dismiss us and say we haven't proven anything as justification for a ban when the burden of proof lies on you.
thats real cute pal, way to skim over this part
ubers has dangerous threats at every corner, and the list of counters to them isnt exactly stretching down the block. when they can be removed from the game with absolutely nothing they can do about it bar running stupid, otherwise-useless bullshit like shed shell, there is a problem. you can choose to not run these mons that get trapped, of course, but then you arent packing counters to a ton of threats that the trap team is abusing in conjunction with their shadow tagger. relying on 50/50s to get rid of them before they do any damage is the most ridiculous argument on the planet, i dont even need to explain why this is stupid as fuck. thats not even mentioning the fact that even if you get your pursuiter in, mega gengar in particular can also fuck it over with its myriad of options. shadow tag is turning a great tier into a retarded abattoir of team matchup horseshit and needs to go.
in regards to
Also XY Ubers is insanely matchup reliant with or without Mega Gengar. Try again.
are you speaking from your experience in the non-megagar metagame?
 
okay okay i'm posting my 2 cents here.
i don't play ubers too much but after long hours of laddering and some tournaments i played recently, i found that shadow tag is uncompetitive (just like some of you said in this topic). and i'm saying that because we all know competitive play is based about skill, mindgame and other important things, but here i'll focus on the mind. how could shadow tag be competitive while you can't even switch out and bring a pokemon that checks well the STAG user ? i mean if you are trapped and you can't do anything i usually say 'rip'. just think of it, we all know the almighty core xerngar. i suppose that ho-oh, lugia, keys and many others are kinda solid checks to geoxern. and here comes shadow tag's uncompetitiveness ! you just need the have the right move for every pokemon and the mission is completed. gothitelle does the same job by beating all defensive arceus versions (exept ghost) and let a setup sweeper come in and wreck shit. just ban shadow tag lol
 
I think one key pro-ban argument regarding the 50/50s STag makes has not been addressed enough by the anti-ban side. The focus so far has been on the 50/50 STag makes once a pokemon is trapped. For me the more problematic 50/50 occurs before a pokemon is trapped.

If my opponent, whose team contains Mega Gengar or Gothitelle, currently has a strong attacker on the field threatening to KO the pokemon I have out, I shouldn't have to "predict" whether my opponent will switch to his STag mon. I'm forced into a 50/50 on whether to stay in / switch into Spiritomb (which really is the only universal Mega Gengar counter) predicting Gengar or switch out predicting my opponent to stay in. Best case, I'll just be up a little in position. Worst case, I lose either my wall or the pokemon I have out.

People argue that even without STag, this problem with prediction is still present - my opponent can pull a double into E-killer on my switch to a special wall, for instance. There's a key difference between these two situations, however. In one, there's a 50/50 with me losing an important pokemon in my defensive core. In the other, I'm down in position slightly, and I still have the ability to preserve my wall.

Pokemon victories should primarily be based on many smart plays and adjustments which add up to favorable position, not a single aggressive play involving Shadow Tag.

Fireburn (or anyone knowledgable): Will Shadow Tag be suspected only if Mega Gengar is banned? I'm hesitant to vote to ban Gengarite because, even though Gengar has tremendous stats and a great movepool, its problem lies mostly in its ability.
 
I think one key pro-ban argument regarding the 50/50s STag makes has not been addressed enough by the anti-ban side. The focus so far has been on the 50/50 STag makes once a pokemon is trapped. For me the more problematic 50/50 occurs before a pokemon is trapped.

If my opponent, whose team contains Mega Gengar or Gothitelle, currently has a strong attacker on the field threatening to KO the pokemon I have out, I shouldn't have to "predict" whether my opponent will switch to his STag mon. I'm forced into a 50/50 on whether to stay in / switch into Spiritomb (which really is the only universal Mega Gengar counter) predicting Gengar or switch out predicting my opponent to stay in. Best case, I'll just be up a little in position. Worst case, I lose either my wall or the pokemon I have out.

People argue that even without STag, this problem with prediction is still present - my opponent can pull a double into E-killer on my switch to a special wall, for instance. There's a key difference between these two situations, however. In one, there's a 50/50 with me losing an important pokemon in my defensive core. In the other, I'm down in position slightly, and I still have the ability to preserve my wall.

Pokemon victories should primarily be based on many smart plays and adjustments which add up to favorable position, not a single aggressive play involving Shadow Tag.

Fireburn (or anyone knowledgable): Will Shadow Tag be suspected only if Mega Gengar is banned? I'm hesitant to vote to ban Gengarite because, even though Gengar has tremendous stats and a great movepool, its problem lies mostly in its ability.
I think we've mentioned this before in this thread but I don't remember if anyone actually addressed (17 pages whoo boy.) My stance on the 50/50s that occur beforehand is that if you hold enough pressure for the match those 50/50s tend to not happen. That's where the argument cycles back to the Team Matchup vs Skill which is where I, personally, get divided with the argument.

As a side note, this will be my first vote. How will the process for gaining access to the thread be going about? I assume we'll be messaged?
 
I think we've mentioned this before in this thread but I don't remember if anyone actually addressed (17 pages whoo boy.) My stance on the 50/50s that occur beforehand is that if you hold enough pressure for the match those 50/50s tend to not happen. That's where the argument cycles back to the Team Matchup vs Skill which is where I, personally, get divided with the argument.

As a side note, this will be my first vote. How will the process for gaining access to the thread be going about? I assume we'll be messaged?
Yeah I believe Dice mentioned it, as well as MM2 when replying to me a long time ago, but I do feel that people still are missing it. I agree that 50/50s tend not to happen when you have offensive pressure. However, I do think that pressure can swing very easily - sacking a pokemon and bringing out an offensive check can swap the momentum and force a 50/50 with STag when ordinarily it would not be so easy to regain firm control of the match.
 
Okay, this is my first time participating in one of these discussions and I know it's almost over, so my points won't be very good and any point that I bring up will have already been made, but I just HAD to come and vocalize my opinion on the matter. I've played hundreds of Ubers matches just within this suspect test, and I simply don't understand how people are saying that it is unconpetitive/hazardous to the meta. I've read some of the discussion to try and get the jist of what the ban is about, and there's just not enough compelling evidence when my own gameplay experience tells me that Gengar-Mega is not a concern.

First and foremost, Gengar-Mega extremely fragile. Just about any STAB move that is regularly effective assuming it has all its EVs invested in Speed and Special Attack, and if it doesn't 1HKO it, it will most certainly be taken out the next turn (if it survives, though a Sludge Bomb from a Mega Gengar is gonna hurt regardless of if you're allowed to switch). The only thing you're really missing out on with Shadow Tag is being able to switch into a Steel/Normal type to negate Poison/Ghost type attacks, but those switches are very predictable, anyway. On top of that, it is very fast, but not the fastest. It is outsped by 3 out of 4 Deoxys, tied with Mewtwo and outsped by Mega Mewtwo X and Y, ALL of which have STAB super effective moves that can 1HKO it in a heartbeat. Not to mention, Bullet Punch Lucario-Mega, and it also has Sludge Bomb immunity.

Second, and this is something that I know has been brought up already but I would like to restate, it might as well not even have Shadow Tag because it doesn't get Shadow Tag until it Mega Evolves! This means, even if you get a clean switch into Gengar, the opponent still has the chance to switch into whatever Pokemon they want if they so choose, or they can attempt to off the Gengar right then and there. It's up to the Gengar-Mega user to predict whether or not they will switch, and what they will do if they switch. So in that sense, Gengar-Mega is the opposite of uncompetitive. It requires much skill on both ends, as the Gengar-Mega user is forced to predict whether the other player will Taunt, T-Wave, etc., when the Mega Gengar user should transform as well as forcing the other player to strategically switch their Pokemon before it transforms.

Third, there ARE ways that allow a switch out to occur when Gengar-Mega is active. Roar, Whirlwind and Dragon Tail exist. In fact, not only do they exist, but they are pretty common, too. So if someone switches into a Gengar, you can easily switch into a Roar/WW/DT user before it transforms, and D-Bond or Perish Song are no longer an issue, which forces the Gengar-Mega user to switch strategies. And on that same note, moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch are immune from Shadow Tag, and Baton Passers can still pass freely with Gengar-Mega active. Oh, and I should also mention the fact that Shadow Tag allows other Ghost types to switch freely, so if you have Giratina or any other Ghost type on your team, you can switch into it and still have the ability to switch out at least one more time (I know, it's very circumstantial, but it's still an option). The point is, your Pokemon is not doomed to fall to Perish Song or D-Bond once Mega Gengar gets going.

TL;DR VERSION:
1. He's too fragile and has WAY too many common threats that can easily 1HKO him
2. He requires a turn to set up Shadow Tag, which forces strategic thinking from both players
3. There are many common ways to switch out even after Shadow Tag activates (U-Turn, Roar, Whirlwind, etc.)
 
Okay, this is my first time participating in one of these discussions and I know it's almost over, so my points won't be very good and any point that I bring up will have already been made, but I just HAD to come and vocalize my opinion on the matter. I've played hundreds of Ubers matches just within this suspect test, and I simply don't understand how people are saying that it is unconpetitive/hazardous to the meta. I've read some of the discussion to try and get the jist of what the ban is about, and there's just not enough compelling evidence when my own gameplay experience tells me that Gengar-Mega is not a concern.

First and foremost, Gengar-Mega extremely fragile. Just about any STAB move that is regularly effective assuming it has all its EVs invested in Speed and Special Attack, and if it doesn't 1HKO it, it will most certainly be taken out the next turn (if it survives, though a Sludge Bomb from a Mega Gengar is gonna hurt regardless of if you're allowed to switch). The only thing you're really missing out on with Shadow Tag is being able to switch into a Steel/Normal type to negate Poison/Ghost type attacks, but those switches are very predictable, anyway. On top of that, it is very fast, but not the fastest. It is outsped by 3 out of 4 Deoxys, tied with Mewtwo and outsped by Mega Mewtwo X and Y, ALL of which have STAB super effective moves that can 1HKO it in a heartbeat. Not to mention, Bullet Punch Lucario-Mega, and it also has Sludge Bomb immunity.

Second, and this is something that I know has been brought up already but I would like to restate, it might as well not even have Shadow Tag because it doesn't get Shadow Tag until it Mega Evolves! This means, even if you get a clean switch into Gengar, the opponent still has the chance to switch into whatever Pokemon they want if they so choose, or they can attempt to off the Gengar right then and there. It's up to the Gengar-Mega user to predict whether or not they will switch, and what they will do if they switch. So in that sense, Gengar-Mega is the opposite of uncompetitive. It requires much skill on both ends, as the Gengar-Mega user is forced to predict whether the other player will Taunt, T-Wave, etc., when the Mega Gengar user should transform as well as forcing the other player to strategically switch their Pokemon before it transforms.

Third, there ARE ways that allow a switch out to occur when Gengar-Mega is active. Roar, Whirlwind and Dragon Tail exist. In fact, not only do they exist, but they are pretty common, too. So if someone switches into a Gengar, you can easily switch into a Roar/WW/DT user before it transforms, and D-Bond or Perish Song are no longer an issue, which forces the Gengar-Mega user to switch strategies. And on that same note, moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch are immune from Shadow Tag, and Baton Passers can still pass freely with Gengar-Mega active. Oh, and I should also mention the fact that Shadow Tag allows other Ghost types to switch freely, so if you have Giratina or any other Ghost type on your team, you can switch into it and still have the ability to switch out at least one more time (I know, it's very circumstantial, but it's still an option). The point is, your Pokemon is not doomed to fall to Perish Song or D-Bond once Mega Gengar gets going.

TL;DR VERSION:
1. He's too fragile and has WAY too many common threats that can easily 1HKO him
2. He requires a turn to set up Shadow Tag, which forces strategic thinking from both players
3. There are many common ways to switch out even after Shadow Tag activates (U-Turn, Roar, Whirlwind, etc.)
While it is true that there are many threats that can easily take out Gengar, it's pretty difficult to bring them in. You can either let something die and threaten with a revenge kill, but Gengar can easily switch out. Even if you already have a ghost in and can switch out, the threats you mentioned can't switch in without either being KOed themselves by a SE move or taking half from a STAB.

Gengar does require a turn to set up STag, but getting this is not as hard as you make it out to be. Volt-turn, as you mentioned, is an easy way out of STag, but it is also an easy way to bring Gengar in. You can also bring Gengar by sacking a weakened mon - not only do you get to set up easily, but you also get a free taunt or chunk of damage off the opponent's switch-in.

Roar and whirlwind aren't that reliable in getting rid of Gengar because of Taunt, and the common Dragon Tail users like Giratina and Lugia are weak to Gengar's STABs. In addition, phazing gives Gengar a free opportunity to mega evolve if it hasn't already.

While it is true that you may not immediately lose a pokemon to DB/PS, you're still stuck in a terrible position in terms of loss of momentum and HP. Gengar's ability to weaken defensive cores easily, even without necessarily netting any KOs, for other sweepers is what makes it such a threat.

You're right that status and taunt really hinder Gengar's effectiveness. However, one thing you should keep in mind is there's a difference between predicting and weighing one's options to choose one which will preserve good position no matter what your opponent does. Mind-reading is not a skill and constitutes the aggressive plays pro-ban players don't want to consistently be deciding factors in games.

EDIT: Other anti-ban people have been arguing that these roles are also fulfilled by wall-breakers and that Gengar doesn't do anything that's banworthy. While, of course, I disagree, if you're arguing anti-ban I'll point you in that direction. Arguing that Gengar isn't effective isn't really the greatest argument, as I hope I've convinced you.

EDIT2: As Miscellaneous mentioned, there's a difference between being broken and being uncompetitive (you probably want to find a good definition for whatever that means to you). I think the general consensus is that Gengar is broken, but whether or not it's uncompetitive is still up for debate. Also, if something is not broken, that does not imply that it's not uncompetitive. I don't think swag-play is broken; it's easily countered and is not centralizing. I do find it uncompetitive and thus agree with its ban.
 
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TL;DR VERSION:
1. He's too fragile and has WAY too many common threats that can easily 1HKO him
2. He requires a turn to set up Shadow Tag, which forces strategic thinking from both players
3. There are many common ways to switch out even after Shadow Tag activates (U-Turn, Roar, Whirlwind, etc.)
1. This isn't about Gengar being broken. This isn't OU. (Not that this statement doesn't not apply to anything with less than 100/100/100 defenses).
2. Ok, so getting 1 free turn is the challenge? For a ghost type with levitate, which is also fast and has access to substitute? ... Ironically, I can also force this with shadow tag wobbuffet or [insert any one of a huge number of threats which will force a switch to a counter]

3. No. No. No. This is the exact issue. Shed Shell is garbage and is a huge sacrifice. U-turn, baton pass and volt switch are not at all omnipresent on most Ubers teams, let alone most pokemon. Likewise at most you may have 1 or 2 phasers (perhaps more if it's stall). Likewise most of the things you try to trap with Gengar, you knowingly trap knowing they'll be screwed.
STAG is also a one way street. You are never forcing gengar to stay in and play out the matchup. Even if you run a pursuit-user Gengar has enough move diversity and power to threaten the KO (and even if something does work, it relies on your opponent making the misplay, when it's the STAG user that should be forcing the play in the first place. A very common scenario is "switch to your [X] counter and I will switch to Gengar, or don't switch and you have no counter".).
 

haxiom

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So my final thought. Aesthetic hide because it's a long post. Sorry for the formality with headings and stuff- its a draft for a final post so that's why.
INTRODUCTION

Haxiom here. We are only a couple of hours away from the end of the suspect test. I think it's time I share my final thoughts here. I warn you that this is going to be a long post (if the hide tag didn't already do so). I was going to post this a few days ago and have time to argue the points if there is opposition but this thing called procrastination happened and... well anyone who has ever had to write a paper for school knows how that goes (speaking of school, it starts WAY too soon). I will making a few finishing touches and ultimately, you can expect this to be my post that I include with my vote. Sorry mods if you have to read over 200 posts akin to this.

Identifying the Criteria

So, I see a lot of users post thoughts here and they really don't know what constitutes a ban in Ubers. I felt like it would be really important to identify the criteria for a ban in Ubers before I set out to analyze arguments and draw conclusions, as it would be very helpful to have a goal, some sort of concept of end, to give direction to my logic. I also need to back up and prove that the criteria I am using is valid, since otherwise the arguments do not stand. It would be akin to building a house without a foundation- the house cannot stand without it.

So, lets take a look at something Fireburn said:

"Is Gengarite an uncompetitive element of the metagame that needs to be removed to preserve the competitive integrity of Ubers, within the current paradigm of Ubers?"
So I think it is pretty clear that the basis we are banning Gengar on is uncompetitiveness and not brokenness. I see this way to often, in this thread and in the Ubers room. We definitely have to recognize that this is not an OU suspect test, and this is probably one of the most annoying, infuriating things I see. You can see perfectly well that it has been explicitly stated here, so any arguments that involve brokenness are void.

This is the obvious part. However, I don't think it is a simple "is Gengar uncompetitive or not?" There is more to this. The second part of the above quote says "within the current paradigm of Ubers". I interpret this to mean that the potential banning of Gengar cannot set a precedence. In other words, even if Gengar is uncompetitive, we cannot compromise the current paradigm of Ubers in its ban. I'll give an analogy. If you were building an Ubers team, and the team lacked strong defensive switches into Ho-Oh (however at the same time did a very good job of pressuring it), and the team needed a switch-in to Kyogre, Palkia is obviously a much better choice than Grassceus, because Grassceus gives Ho-Oh free switches. If Grassceus is chosen, you gain a switch-in to Kyogre, but compromise security versus Ho-Oh. In a similar way, if we ban Gengar assuming that it has been proven uncompetitive, we cannot compromise the "current paradigm of Ubers."

Now, I am aware that it has been said that regardless of what decision is made, the decision will not be made a precedence for anything and Xerneas, Kyogre, etc. will not be banned, which I get. However, I think that while the ban will not set a precedent for banning things that are broken, like the aforementioned ones, it will however, change the way we perceive Ubers as a whole. In other words, banning Gengar might not directly impact future bans, however it may do so indirectly by effectively changing what "Ubers" is or means. I know a lot of arguments revolve around whether Ubers is a banlist or a tier, and I feel like it has been expressed that Ubers is both.
It's both. Ubers's function as a banlist simply means that "Uber" is what we call things that are too strong for OU. That's it. After that it's a metagame, which has been defined previously by former Ubers Leader bojangles as "the metagame with the least amount of bans."
What does that mean though? Well, it is a tier in the sense that it wants to be competitive, it wants to be an environment which nothing is turning the game into a luck oriented, boring, uncompetitive game. However, it is also a banlist in the sense that it aims to be very selective and limited in what it chooses to ban, as a banlist needs to be careful of banning things should it eventually not become a banlist at all and merely a higher tier with a banlist above even it.

Oh yeah, also bear in mind that I am not assuming the banning of Gengarite sets a precedent, this part is only applicable if I successfully prove that it sets a precedence, which I intend to do.

So besides being told to do so, why is making sure we don't set a precedent so important? Why do we even care about the integrity of Ubers? Well, let's say that Gengar is banned, and it changes the definition of Ubers itself. Where do we put Gengar? It has been established that it ceases to exist. What if it keeps going though? At what point will the Ubers Banlist become a tier itself? And what happens when the playerbase for that is strong enough that people are starting to push for bans in that? The cycle continues on an endless loop, on and on and on... It sounds far fetched but isn't that kind of how we got here?

I just want to go over one last thing before we get into this. I am going to take this from an "innocent unless proven guilty" viewpoint. This means that Gengar has to be proven to be uncompetitive by the pro-ban side, while the anti-ban only has to counter-argue that. It is a mentality in many courts to do it like this, so as not to convict an innocent man. Why? Because, if you err on the side of caution, and accidentally acquit a guilty man, that is grace, since he doesn't deserve to be acquitted but is by grace. However, if you were to convict an innocent man, that is unjust, because he deserves acquittal but does not receive it. Now, it seems silly to apply moral vocabulary to the banning of a pokemon in Ubers, but that is exactly what I am doing, because it is a similar scenario, only on a smaller scale.

The Arguments

Pro-Ban

Gengariteshould be banned because it has a great combination of speed, power, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Perish Song in addition to Shadow Tag which makes it uncompetitive.

I really dislike this argument. To me, it is one of the weakest that the pro-ban side has argued. Effectively, you say something like "Mega Gengar is so good, it is uncompetitive." This argument is the exact opposite of what we are supposed to be doing here. This argument is the epitome of treating this suspect test like an OU one. It is a brokenness argument, and therefore invalid as it has been stated by the criteria of an Ubers ban that has been identified. In addition to this, banning Gengarite for this reason sets a precedence. What if I said, "x should be banned because it has a combination of a great ability in Fairy Aura, good speed, excellent power and coverage, and access to the best setup move in the game in Geomancy which makes it uncompetitive"?

Gengariteshould be banned because it forces an overly matchup basedmetagamewhich is inherently uncompetitive.

Contrary to the previous argument, I find this to be quite a solid argument. I have seen anti-ban people shrug this off saying that all the other bans are RNG based, citing Swagger, OHKO, etc. However, I disagree with that sentiment for two reasons (and yes I am defending this argument, I'm trying to not be biased). Firstly, there is no rule that states that uncompetitive 100% equates to RNG abuse. Secondly, even if that was the interpretation, in a way a matchup based metagameis RNGs. If a game is utterly and completely decided at the matchup, then the mental coinflip that you do when choosing a teamis RNGs. However, although I find this response to be lackluster, I do have a different counter-argument to interject. I think that, like any mon, Mega-Gengar is beat in the teambuilder. I don't necessarily even necessarily mean pursuit only. One thing that I have seen is running Punishment on Arceus formes- and before people hate on this, absolutely refusing to run Punishment to deal with stag, it's not too different from running other stuff in the meta. People run Thunder Wave on Groudon and Palkia to prevent Xerneas from setting up, so why can't we run Punishment, or any other move to beat stag? Furthermore, let's say I build a team that is weak to Extreme Killer Arceus. Following this, I enter a battle in which my opponent brings Extreme Killer Arceus, and I consequently lose as I am weak to it. That is just called bad teambuilding. However, I were to replace Ekiller with Mega Gengar, it is called uncompetitive. That just doesn't add up. I do recognize that it is much harder to check and stuff, but that still doesn't make much more sense.

Gengariteshould be banned because it takes away meaningful choice by preventing the opponent from switching.

I think this is one of the more difficult arguments to consider, because there are simply so many subjective things that come in to play. There are two parts of skill, being teambuilding and gameplay, and while the previous argument is in regards to the former, this argument is pertinent to the latter. When I say it is subjective, I mean things like "what constitutes a meaningful choice?" and "is there a difference in whether we ban for taking away choice versus meaningful choice" and "is it a choice to avoid the situation altogether" and such. Regarding the first, I do concede that it is not necessarily meaningful, as often it is a 50/50 or you do have a choice but an irrelevant one. Granted, you have a choice to begin with, so I would venture to say that you have a choice, albeit not a meaningful one. Regarding the second, we are banning for the removal of skill from the game, not choice. So I guess neither are particularly applicable but I guess lack of meaningful choice definitely is close to removing skill. However, the last one is tricky. Within the battle, the pro-ban side has done a good job of arguing that you cannot outplay Gengar, and I concede that. It doesn't necessarily have a counter per se, though I feel like most offensive threats can run x coverage to defeat x counter (i.e. Grass Knot Ekiller for Quagsire). However, what about pre-game preparation? This now reverts back to the previous teambuilding argument. At the end of the day, I struggle to argue against this, but it is relatively subjective in nature, so that makes it kind of hard to do so.

Gengarite should be banned because it naturally forces a lot of 50/50s in the current metagame, which is unhealthy and uncompetitive.

I definitely see where this argument is coming from; coinflips indeed are uncompetitive. However, there are other things that also force 50/50s. Let's take Aegislash for example. It can force a lot of 50/50s when it checks something like Substitute Geomancy Xerneas (and other stuff as well, but this is very tangible one). In this scenario, we call Aegislash, a shaky check. On the other hand, we take something like Pursuit Tyranitar andwant it to be a full one hundred percent counter to Gengar, and when it forces 50/50's, we are disappointed and call Gengar uncompetitive. I do not think having shaky checks is uncompetitive, because from the other side you have a shaky threat. It's very difficult to counter, but by that logic Mewtwo should be banned because that has like no perfect counters. I will make a note that a difference between Aegislash and Gengar is that because of Shadow Tag, Gengar forces you to participate in that 50/50, whereas in Aegislash's case, either of the parties involved can simply switch out and avoid the 50/50 altogether.

Gengarite should be banned because it limits teambuilding to a point where most fairies and grass types are almost unviable, and is therefore uncompetitive.

I disagree with this argument. A lot of mons limit teambuilding- let's look at Giratina. Because of the existence of stuff like Xerneas, its viability has significantly worsened to the point where when you see it your opinion of your opponent drops. Stealth Rocks were introduced and makes a lot of pokemon (barring Ho-Oh) much, much more unviable. Xerneas limits teambuilding to a point where Giratina is almost unviable. Stealth Rocks limits teambuilding to a point where pokemon that are weak to it drop significantly in viability. In the same vein, Mega Gengar limits teambuilding to a point where fairies and grasses are almost unviable. I get that Gengar's is a wider, more general limitation whereas Xerneas's is specific, and Stealth Rocks' is to a lesser degree, but the point stands. Banning Gengar for this reason sets a precedence.

Anti-Ban

Before we start I want to point out that I am aware that I do not need to prove this, however, I want to analyze these arguments anyways for the sake of equity and making a few points.

Gengarite should not be banned because it encourages high level prediction and double-switching.

Dice hit this one pretty hard. If anything, it makes less high level, and more high stakes prediction, which means that skilled players may struggle in risk-reward situations where neither situation is a low risk one. I don't have much to say here that Dice hasn't already said, you can find his post I guess.

Gengarite should not be banned because this is Ubers, and we do NOT ban stuff in Ubers.

I cringe when I hear this argument. Every time. I agree with the sentiment that we don't want to set a precedent, but I feel like this is a bad argument because it doesn't make any relevant points. It just shuts out all other points and doesn't meaningfully consider whether Gengar is ban-worthy or not. It is a cop-out argument.

Gengarite should not be banned because it is to fragile to do anything useful.

Similar veins still. This is kind of the opposite of the "Gengar is so broken" argument. It is saying Gengar is not broken, which is wrong in my opinion. Gengar is hilariously broken. But we are arguing for uncompetitiveness, as you recall.

Gengarite should not be banned because it takes one turn to mega-evolve, allowing opportunities to revenge or pursuit trap it.

I am not too keen on this argument either. As pro-ban users have worked so hard to prove, pursuiting isn't a magic "poof" and Gengar is dead and a non-threat. However, this does tie back to "counterable" and whether uncounterable is equal to uncompetitive. I do not think it does, since as I previously mentioned, most threats can bypass certain threats by running specific coverage for it.

Gengarite should not be banned because, like any other Pokemon, it is beat in the teambuilder.

This is the argument I come back to a lot, as I find it pretty strong. A current example is running Shed Shell Blissey, so that it is not Shadow Tag fodder. Not being weak to Shadow Tag is a pretty good way to counter it, no? This argument has already been hit a lot, it's a counter argument for the matchup reliance argument from the pro-ban side. There will always be good and bad matchups, but getting as many good matchups to common playstyles as you can is ideal.

Precedents

I just want to make an overall note about why the banning of Mega Gengar inherently will set aprecedence, as it makes a difference in my overall decision. At the beginning of this post, I worked to prove that if Gengar were to be banned, it would have to be proven that it does not set a precedence. First of all, the banning of Gengar will set a precedence, since it is a pokemon, or forme, or whatever. I gave an example as to why there will be no difference a little while ago.

...at the end of the day we have to realize that the effect is the same, and thus it sets the same precedence. I'll give an analogy.

Lets say there is a gun that the government needs to make illegal. This gun can only use a specific type of ammunition also. However, since this is the first weapon to be banned, and the citizens do not want a precedence set so that other weapons are not banned because they like their weapons. The government has two options. They can simply ban the gun itself, or alternately, they can ban the ammunition. However, whichever one they ban, it still sets a precedence does it not? Both would be under some umbrella category, something like "Weapon Control Laws" or to that effect.

My point is, whether we ban a mon, a forme of a mon, or a means of accessing a mon, we are going to ultimately feel the same about it in regards to precedence setting.
Aside from this however, there is a second reason I think the Gengarite ban will set a precedence. If we ban Gengar and there is a "Gengarite Clause," then there is the possibility that Shadow Tag as a whole will not get banned. This itself is unnerving to me because if Gengar is banned and only Gengar, it means that it has more of a reason to be banned, it implies that Gengar is a better user of Shadow Tag than Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, and in this comes the danger that that means that somewhere in there, Gengar's brokenness came into play as opposed to uncompetitiveness. Even if both were banned, the fact that there needed to be a "Gengarite Clause" in addition to a "Shadow Tag Clause" at some point (I doubt they will both be in effect but still) implies that Gengar needed a separate ban clause, which goes back to what I just said about brokenness.

Conclusion

We have reached the end. Time to wrap this up.

Is Gengar-Mega an uncompetitive force in the metagame?

I'm struggling with this. It's really close. On one hand, I don't think there are many good anti-ban arguments, and on the other hand there don't really need to be many. The pro-ban side has made good points, two standing out in particular. However, I feel like the matchup argument is argued successfully by the teambuilder one and the meaningful choice argument is subject... I guess what I'm saying is, as for whether Gengar is fully an uncompetitive force, it's borderline.

Does the banning of the Gengarite affect our current perception of Ubers and/or compromise the current paradigm of Ubers?

If you were wondering why I was able to just kind of go meh on that last part, this is why. I think Gengar does indeed compromise the current paradigm of Ubers as I have tried to prove in this post.

So basically, we have a null for the first part and a yes for the second part, so I am going to vote NO BAN.

Something I have been hearing is the stupidity of the words "uncompetitive," "broken," "balance," and similar words. I do feel like they can be inherently stupid, but only through the connotations we have given them. "Uncompetitive" is such a loaded word now- there are like a thousand intricate meanings behind the word. I feel like in order to understand better, it is far better to strip down a word like "uncompetitive" into something like "possessing qualities which take away the players control of the game." Of course, that is a mouthful and thus why I don't use it often, just... try to strip the word of its connotations. That's all I have to say.


That is all. Thank you for reading.
 
Personally, I don't believe Mega Gengar is broken in Ubers. Its got decent stats, and can survive more than a few attacks, but ultimately, one can deal with it decently easy. I personally believe Gothitelle is more dangerous and difficult to deal with. However, the main draw to both Pokemon is Shadow Tag. I think Shadow Tag (and other trapping abilities) are uncompetitive abilities due to the fact that they remove the most important part of competitive Pokemon, which is SWITCHING. The inability to switch Pokemon is something I believe isn't healthy for any metagame, so I wouldn't ban specifically Gengarite, as I don't feel its actually broken by itself, but I would ban trapping abilities in general.
 

Empress

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Though I did not play too many Ubers matches with Mega Gengar, through what I have seen, I have decided to vote Do not ban. The problem, as far as I can see, is not Shadow Tag itself- it is simply that Mega Gengar can abuse Shadow Tag more than its other wielders can. While it is better than Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, due to its much higher offense and Speed, I personally think it can be handled. After it kills something, it is quite prone to revenge killing because of its frailty. Additionally, 150 Speed isn't as high as you might think in Ubers, where (Mega) Mewtwo and Deoxys-A run rampant. Additionally, Scarf is quite common here, with threats like Zekrom and Kyogre able to OHKO Mega Gengar right back. As such, Mega Gengar creates many one-for-one sacrifices, which is "a strategy that can bear no fruit". In fact, I would even say it has a positive effect on the metagame, as it keeps threats like Xerneas in check; Sludge Wave/Bomb often OHKOes her. On another note, banning it would set a bad precedent for the Ubers metagame. Ubers is not like OU; it intentionally contains broken Pokémon, and is not supposed to be perfectly balanced. If Ubers was supposed to be a perfectly balanced metagame, then Kyogre, Mewtwo, and Xerneas would all be tested and possibly banned.

Basically, I think we can handle Mega Gengar, and banning it would be very bad for the image of the Uber tier.
 
Gengarite should be banned because it naturally forces a lot of 50/50s in the current metagame, which is unhealthy and uncompetitive.

I definitely see where this argument is coming from; coinflips indeed are uncompetitive. However, there are other things that also force 50/50s. Let's take Aegislash for example. It can force a lot of 50/50s when it checks something like Substitute Geomancy Xerneas (and other stuff as well, but this is very tangible one). In this scenario, we call Aegislash, a shaky check. On the other hand, we take something like Pursuit Tyranitar andwant it to be a full one hundred percent counter to Gengar, and when it forces 50/50's, we are disappointed and call Gengar uncompetitive. I do not think having shaky checks is uncompetitive, because from the other side you have a shaky threat. It's very difficult to counter, but by that logic Mewtwo should be banned because that has like no perfect counters. I will make a note that a difference between Aegislash and Gengar is that because of Shadow Tag, Gengar forces you to participate in that 50/50, whereas in Aegislash's case, either of the parties involved can simply switch out and avoid the 50/50 altogether.
Your post is extremely informative and brings up several great points. However, I think you're missing half of the 50/50 pro-ban argument. The problematic 50/50 is the one leading up to the Gengar switch-in, not while a pokemon is already trapped. If I currently have a pokemon on the field which is KOed by my opponent's pokemon, I can switch out to sponge the potential attack but risk losing a crucial defensive mon to Mega-Gengar, letting my opponent sweep with his first pokemon, or I can stay in "predicting" Gengar and take it out. This 50/50 happens very frequently and has a negative impact on the game due to its ability to decide matches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think you address this.

You point to Tyranitar as a 100% counter to Mega Gengar, but after switching in twice on stealth rocks lets Timid MGengar KO 252/252+ Tyranitar with Focus Blast. (I should mention that Timid MGengar outspeeds choice scarf variants.) Thus the only "good" pursuit trapper left is AV Infiltrator Spiritomb. I agree that having no/limited counters is not grounds for banning something in Ubers, so this isn't really valid, but I just wanted to point it out.

EDIT: Oops Chople Berry Ttar works well. Thanks for your response; I understand your argument better.
 
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haxiom

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Your post is extremely informative and brings up several great points. However, I think you're missing half of the 50/50 pro-ban argument. The problematic 50/50 is the one leading up to the Gengar switch-in, not while a pokemon is already trapped. If I currently have a pokemon on the field which is KOed by my opponent's pokemon, I can switch out to sponge the potential attack but risk losing a crucial defensive mon to Mega-Gengar, letting my opponent sweep with his first pokemon, or I can stay in "predicting" Gengar and take it out. This 50/50 happens very frequently and has a negative impact on the game due to its ability to decide matches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think you address this.

You point to Tyranitar as a 100% counter to Mega Gengar, but after switching in twice on stealth rocks lets Timid MGengar KO 252/252+ Tyranitar with Focus Blast. (I should mention that Timid MGengar outspeeds choice scarf variants.) Thus the only "good" pursuit trapper left is AV Infiltrator Spiritomb. I agree that having no/limited counters is not grounds for banning something in Ubers, so this isn't really valid, but I just wanted to point it out.
I see your point in the first part, I was responding to something in particular that I can't find anymore but whatever, it will be addressed in my final statement. As for Tyranitar, I apologize for any miscommunications, as my intention was something of that we kind of hope x pursuiters beat Gengar but they don't always, and that sometimes results in a 50/50, not necessarily Tyranitar specifically but that was what came into mind first.
 
After getting reqs and reading through a lot of this thread here are my thoughts.

At first, I was pretty sure I was going to vote ban, but now after reading through a lot of the suspect discussion, I'm actually not so sure.

I think because of Shadow Tag Mega-Gengar is definitely uncompetitive, but I feel that banning a Pokemon, even if it's only a temporary in-game form of a Pokemon, would set a bad precedent.

Here's my explanation:

Clearly, a Pokemon simply having the ability Shadow Tag does not make it broken. However, this doesn't mean that Shadow Tag won't remove choice the game. For example, Sunkern would not be an broken user of Shadow Tag because it cannot really benefit to trap and eliminate certain Pokemon due to its low base stats. Pokemon trapped by Sunkern would still not have the choice of switching out. Gothoritha is a more relevant example. This level of removing choice is so insignificant that I think it is tolerable for the Uber metagame. In fact, the unbanning of Evasion Clause last gen supports this idea.

Mega-Gengar, on the other hand, has both the base stats and wide movepool to effectively use Shadow Tag. Therefore, the combination the Shadow Tag and the resources to use that ability (base stats, movepool, typing, fits into the metagame well) is really what makes Mega-Gengar uncompetitive. Similarily, Shadow Tag Gothitelle is also uncompetitive - by setting up on support Arceus or specially defensive Palkia, it takes significant control out of the player's hand.

As such, if Gengarite was banned, it could set the precedent that a combination of the ability Shadow Tag on a Pokemon that has resources to abuse it is uncompetitive. However, I think it would be a bad idea because it lacks focus in banning the part of Mega-Gengar that pushes it to being uncompetitive - Shadow Tag. Banning Gengarite could lead to people thinking the powerful centralizing abilities/moves that require somewhat specific checks are uncompetitive (ex. Geomancy Xerneas), instead of overpowered. However being powerful does not mean being uncompetitive. In terms of game mechanics, Shadow Tag is the essential part that takes control away from the player.

Therefore, I would prefer to not ban Gengarite, but to ban the ability Shadow Tag. This also fits with the idea that Ubers should be a metagame with the least amount of bans (only 1 ban covering both items, as opposed a Shadow Tag ban and a redundant Gengarite ban).
 
How many people would vote to ban gengarite but not to ban shadow tag? I'm afraid to vote against banning gengarite if shadow tag ends up not getting banned.
 
As such, if Gengarite was banned, it could set the precedent that a combination of the ability Shadow Tag on a Pokemon that has resources to abuse it is uncompetitive. However, I think it would be a bad idea because it lacks focus in banning the part of Mega-Gengar that pushes it to being uncompetitive - Shadow Tag. Banning Gengarite could lead to people thinking the powerful centralizing abilities/moves that require somewhat specific checks are uncompetitive (ex. Geomancy Xerneas), instead of overpowered. However being powerful does not mean being uncompetitive. In terms of game mechanics, Shadow Tag is the essential part that takes control away from the player.

Therefore, I would prefer to not ban Gengarite, but to ban the ability Shadow Tag. This also fits with the idea that Ubers should be a metagame with the least amount of bans (only 1 ban covering both items, as opposed a Shadow Tag ban and a redundant Gengarite ban).
As someone who plans to vote to ban Gengarite (and Shadow Tag too when it comes up), I really don't like this kind of logic. Why not just vote to ban Gengarite if it's a problem? The "setting precedent" idea seems kinda pointless. Nobody is going to confuse overpowered with uncompetitive, the definition of which can be found here. I get that you're worried about all these precedents and all that, but honestly, Gengarite is really making the Ubers metagame a whole lot worse, and I'd personally rather it just be out of the way already. Even if Shadow Tag is going to be suspected in the future, banning Gengarite now will only make the metagame better.
 

shrang

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Your post is extremely informative and brings up several great points. However, I think you're missing half of the 50/50 pro-ban argument. The problematic 50/50 is the one leading up to the Gengar switch-in, not while a pokemon is already trapped. If I currently have a pokemon on the field which is KOed by my opponent's pokemon, I can switch out to sponge the potential attack but risk losing a crucial defensive mon to Mega-Gengar, letting my opponent sweep with his first pokemon, or I can stay in "predicting" Gengar and take it out. This 50/50 happens very frequently and has a negative impact on the game due to its ability to decide matches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think you address this.

You point to Tyranitar as a 100% counter to Mega Gengar, but after switching in twice on stealth rocks lets Timid MGengar KO 252/252+ Tyranitar with Focus Blast. (I should mention that Timid MGengar outspeeds choice scarf variants.) Thus the only "good" pursuit trapper left is AV Infiltrator Spiritomb. I agree that having no/limited counters is not grounds for banning something in Ubers, so this isn't really valid, but I just wanted to point it out.

EDIT: Oops Chople Berry Ttar works well. Thanks for your response; I understand your argument better.
I didn't take about this earlier since no-one was using the argument, since it now looks like people are using it as the main line of attack, I may as well talk about this. I was arguing with WreckDra about this yesterday, so I may as present this a bit more fluently. This whole 50/50 argument is really flimsy, actually. There are a couple of things wrong. Firstly I don't see how the 50/50 with the Shadow Tag switch-in is different to any other 50/50 in the game. The only thing objectively different about this 50/50 to say, a Specs Reshiram vs your Groudon (and you have to predict whether it would Blue Flare/Draco Meteor so there isn't really a safe switch-in), or a CB Zekrom vs your Kyogre (again whether you have to switch to your Ground or your Fairy) is the timing of the 50/50. One happens in the turn, one happens before. It's still a 50/50. I fail to see how this "oh I can't switch in my *insert Kyogre counter* into Kyogre because I might get trapped by Gengar" is uncompetitive. You decide when to switch your mon in, and you pay for the consequences for a bad switch. If you call this a coinflip, you may as call every "prediction" in Pokemon a coinflip. You could have a Xerneas in against CB Zekrom and you're "predicting" that they'll go into Scizor so you can bring in your Specs Kyogre, instead they Bolt Strikes your face and kills your Kyogre. You lost that "coinflip" (I know, I know, it's not a 50/50, but it was a gamble nonetheless, one your opponent won). The difference between this and the other bans we've done is that YOU made the decision, not some arbitrary judge known as the RNG. I can't see how this is uncompetitive. Why are we calling certain 50/50 "coinflips" and calling others "choices"? If you predicted wrong, you got outplayed. If we're going to complain about these "coinflips", why the hell are we playing Pokemon?

Secondly, this argument is still implying that this one 50/50 (or multiple 50/50s) has a direct causative relationship with the outcome of the battle. Just because you won this "50/50" and brought your Gothitelle in against someone's Grassceus and wrecked it suddenly means you've won the game. In my previous posts, I have addressed why this is not the case, so I'm not going to go into detail apart from highlight the main points that:
- Just because you've trapped the victim does not mean that you've successfully removed it (Taunt/Destiny Bond 50/50s, Shed Shell, U-turn/Volt Switch, some trapped Pokemon simply doesn't care)
- A lot of things can happen between the trap and kill and the end of the game which can tip the favour just as much (minus hax, even though hax is probably more significant than many factors in a game)
- If your team only has one thing stopping itself from being totally annihilated by another threat from the opposing team that is easily removed by Shadow Tag, you've made a shit team. I know you all don't like the "get gud" argument, but sometimes I'm just going to call things for what they are.

Now, I know Melee's been hammering at me with the "oh you don't need 100% success to be uncompetitive", but this counter-argument misses the point. The point is that Shadow Tag, unlike some of the other clauses we've put in place, while it might take specific turns out of your hands, does not take the entire game out of your hands. I know OHKO clause has been brought up a couple of times. I frankly did not care that your Pokemon could easily take out its counter if you got lucky and hit a 30% move. I cared because OHKO moves itself, if you were lucky enough, could win you te game by itself. I've seen people get 6-0'd by ScarfOgre spamming Sheer Cold. WHat used to be Evasion Clause and Moody Clause follow the same principle. Sleep is similar, and like I said, I don't give a shit that Darkrai was OP, or Melee could rape your face with his Butterfree set, my reason for banning it was the fact that again, Sleep took the entire game out of your hands because you could not control what Sleep Talk did or when your Sleep counter ended. This, is an example of what I call uncompetitive, not the crap that people have been feeding this discussion.

Another thing that was brought up was the C Allstar vs Melee game (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-145702148) which people are citing for the "50/50s" that Shadow Tag brought up. This game is a horrible example for pro-banners, actually, since it proves MY point. Even though Melee won some "coinflips" on threatening to use Goth to trap specific mons and thus baiting out Spiritomb and therefore taking out multiple mons, he still fucking lost. What more evidence do you want that I am now using a game which people are using as an example to ban S-Tag as an example to show that even though you can trap or threaten to trap certain mons and thus force "50/50s" that the person still lost? Did Shadow Tag have a causative result to multiple mons getting killed? Yes. Did it have a causative relationship to the result of the game? No. It's just another game of Pokemon, where Melee outplayed his opponent but still got resulted in getting outplayed in the end, nothing more, nothing less.

As someone who plans to vote to ban Gengarite (and Shadow Tag too when it comes up), I really don't like this kind of logic. Why not just vote to ban Gengarite if it's a problem? The "setting precedent" idea seems kinda pointless. Nobody is going to confuse overpowered with uncompetitive, the definition of which can be found here. I get that you're worried about all these precedents and all that, but honestly, Gengarite is really making the Ubers metagame a whole lot worse, and I'd personally rather it just be out of the way already. Even if Shadow Tag is going to be suspected in the future, banning Gengarite now will only make the metagame better.
Really? Do you think people actually know the difference?



Actually I think terminology is incredibly important, since the criteria that you're banning things on is based on these subjective words. I am also heavily doubting that people DO know what the difference between OP and uncompetitive are, because I'm seeing a major mixing of the usage of the two terms. Language is a very powerful thing. Firstly, the link you provided for "uncompetitive" is an OU and under definition, which has very different criteria to what we use in Ubers. Secondly, I've pointed a long time ago that that definition is quite flawed in what it actually wants. Read my page 3 rant for why. Lastly, we are not here to make Ubers a "better" metagame, that is not the purpose of the tier. It is high time people stopped trying to make the metagame into what they think it ought to be and got used to what it actually is.
 
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