np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

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To be honest I was really excited for Raptor to be coming back but damn you Koko, switching the retest to Mence, ~_~ Lol.

Seriously though, with Ice Shard, and priority in general, being uncommon in UU I doubt Mence will stay UU. If Weavile were here that would be different, but the only STAB Ice Shard you will get in UU is Cloyster and...nothing else.

252 Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 256-304 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Running Jolly lets you outpace ScarfShao at +2 but if you run Adamant it has a 6.3% chance to OHKO.)

Granted Mence has a rocks weakness but the fact that is has speed, a boosting move, and a boosting ability means it can easily overpower the meta and imo be too centralizing. Heil Hydrei!!! (+1 to someone who gets that reference). Truly though, Hydrei will lose its usage as a Scarfer since Mence is the better Scarfer and Hydrei will only be relegated to Specs or LO sets. Granted Mence cannot beat Florges without "uncommon moves" (like Steel Wing) but as shown on a previous post, +1 has a chance to kill and if Mence sets up and gets a kill it easily gets to +2/+1 and imo there is no stopping it unless Stone Miss can hit on Scarf Shao...

252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 256-302 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after rocks)

Overall, I do love the power Mence brings to UU, but I feel it is too much power, like Zone and Daunt. And I do truly believe it will end up back in BL.
 
Holy fucking shit, I think that's the very first unanimous BL vote. Well, I was a big fan of Salamence from BW OU, so I'm kind looking forward to see what he does here again.
 
My main problem with Mence isn't its attacking power alone - granted, base 135 attack is sky high, but UU is also home to Darmanitan, with a fucking 140 base attack and Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz. It is its power and its high speed tier with the ability to boost it further with either Scarf or Dragon Dance that really bothers me. Combined with its bulk it is really hard to revenge kill. Literally the only Scarfer that gurantees to outspeed and has the ability to KO it is Mienshao, but it has to resort to Stone Miss (or invested HP Ice, but it weakens Shao's physical moves) and needs to ensure that rocks are Mence's field to grab the guranteed KO. Other things that don't outspeed can rely on priority, but then again most unboosted priority attacks in UU are weak and Mence can shrug it off. That is not to mention Moxie snowballing and its 110 SpA and wide movepool allowing it to have enough versatility to get past physical walls - or just anything that stands in its way.
 
My main problem with Mence isn't its attacking power alone - granted, base 135 attack is sky high, but UU is also home to Darmanitan, with a fucking 140 base attack and Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz. It is its high speed tier with the ability to boost it further with either Scarf or Dragon Dance that really bothers me. Combined with its bulk it is really hard to revenge kill. Literally the only Scarfer that gurantees to outspeeds and has the ability to KO it is Mienshao, but it has to resort to Stone Miss (or invested HP Ice, but it weakens Shao's physical moves) and needs to ensure that rocks are Mence's field to grab the guranteed KO. Other things that don't outspeed can rely on priority, but then again most unboosted priority attacks in UU are weak and Mence can shrug it off. That is not to mention its 110 SpA allowing it to get past physical walls even.

Are you actually comparing Salamence to Darmanitan?

Darmanitan can use sheer force flare blitz scarf shit like that, but it's more of a) A wallbreaker b) a revenge killer

Salamence can run scarf and revenge kill, but it also has the role of a sweeper. Darmanitan is frail as fuck but Salamence actually has some good defense (read my last post m8) It has access to an actual boosting move - Dragon Dance, and can use Roost as recovery. It can go mixed, where Darmanitan has to use Zen Mode to use any thing special. Salamence is immune to Sticky Web, Darmanitan isn't. They both have SR weaknesses though (ew). But overall salamence has everything over Darmanitan except for sheer force, and it even has ddance to cover that up
 
Are you actually comparing Salamence to Darmanitan?

Darmanitan can use sheer force flare blitz scarf shit like that, but it's more of a) A wallbreaker b) a revenge killer

Salamence can run scarf and revenge kill, but it also has the role of a sweeper. Darmanitan is frail as fuck but Salamence actually has some good defense (read my last post m8) It has access to an actual boosting move - Dragon Dance, and can use Roost as recovery. It can go mixed, where Darmanitan has to use Zen Mode to use any thing special. Salamence is immune to Sticky Web, Darmanitan isn't. They both have SR weaknesses though (ew). But overall salamence has everything over Darmanitan except for sheer force, and it even has ddance to cover that up
Nope, just saying that more powerful attacks exist in the tier, so power alone isn't enough justification to ban Mence.
 
Tbh, I think the Venomoth ban was a bit hasty. The way I see it, Venomoth has little to no presence in UU, therefore I don't believe it should have been banned so quick. If it were to eventually move up to UU, I would much rather see Venomoth's impact on the meta to see how it actually affects it. It was a huge threat in RU and NU, but not in UU as I've seen.

Crawdaunt ban saddens me a bit, but he is fucking powerful so I can't blame the council for banning him. Salamence will be interesting, and annoying, what with all the sets it can run, so you have to stay on your toes. Staraptor being moved back is annoying, why would you do that? Whatever, at least it's actually being tested.

That's all I have to say atm.
 
Tbh, I think the Venomoth ban was a bit hasty. The way I see it, Venomoth has little to no presence in UU, therefore I don't believe it should have been banned so quick. If it were to eventually move up to UU, I would much rather see Venomoth's impact on the meta to see how it actually affects it. It was a huge threat in RU and NU, but not in UU as I've seen.
Wait 2 weeks, Salamance will be done and then we can finally let Venomoth Staraptor back in for a while.
 
Holy fucking shit, I think that's the very first unanimous BL vote. Well, I was a big fan of Salamence from BW OU, so I'm kind looking forward to see what he does here again.

Thundurus-T had no votes for UU, but 2 voters abstained so yeah

re: darm vs mence: darm doesn't have mence's versatility, it has like 2 viable sets (lo scarf) and both literally run the exact same moves and ev spread (blitz/uturn/superpower/some random filler that you never use 99% of the time). mence has a multitude of sets like dd, scarf, band, mix etc, and a much crazier selection of moves (outrage/claw/iron tail/roost/fire blast/hydro pump/earthquake/dragon dance/fuckingwish). this is clearly on a diff level than darm.

darmanitan also has a crapload of other issues that makes it actually balanced (fraility, it can't take a hit like haxorus, or boosting moves like haxorus/crawdaunt, SR weakness + recoil meaning it dies way too damn quickly to do too much damage) compared to other shit with zomgamaze atk stats like thundurus-t/haxorus/kyubey

also yeah zen is near unviable anyway lmao

re: staraptor: pretty sure if im reading this right we aren't getting a staraptor test until like july since koko mentioned about salamence being the last retest until june shifts

re: venomoth: the whole thing about venomoth was quiverpass (roflmasquerain) and uu had just a decent selection of shit that wouldn't mind a quiverpass to rape face (megatoise/megasheep/nidoking/kyurem/megadoom etc). even if some shit had no presence in the tier, if it can break it it can and will be banned (i'm pretty sure deoxys-dick last gen was uu when it kicked the bucket). besides venomoth had been legal in UU all along so it's basically the players' choice as to whether they wanted to use it... (also i remember venomoth being mentioned as ridiculously op in uupl or something)

i think it really says a lot if you're like S rank on RU viability and in NU range lmfao, showdown players aren't exactly known for their intelligence
 
Hey! i am new here and i was just wondering WHY IS STARAPTOR BANNED? i mean i get that reckless double edge and close combat but it really isnt that broken right? i mean bulky hippodown can tank a hit and kill it hek just use bulky ampharos righ?
 
Not quite.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 232-274 (60.4 - 71.3%)

We'll see if Staraptor is broken in a couple of weeks after salamence is tested. At the moment this thread should probably be focused on the current suspect though.
 
TM13IceBeam Banded darm is actually pretty reliable and can secure some KO's that LO darm cannot, such as this one

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean lets face it, 95% of the time you send out darm, you are either clicking on flare blitz or u-turn, why ditch the power of the band if you are almost never taking advantage of the fact you can swap moves?

On Venomoth: I can see venomoth as being potentially broken, as I have seen with my own eyes the power of scolipede's defense + speed quick pass in OU and how difficult it is to revenge a mon after receiving those two surprisingly synergistic stats, however, by default I am usually anti-ban, so allow me to open up the discussion with a question:

Why is Venomoth broken and not Smeargle or Vivillian? Vivillian has better duel STAB and a more accurate sleep powder, making it without a doubt a better sweeper. Smeargle has more accurate/reliable sleep moves in spore or dark void(no immunities on the latter besides vital spirit/insomnia/having a status already, former is 100% accurate), meaning that it's arguable more reliable in the setup a sweeper ability. It's also less predictable for it has the option of running shift gear or shell smash along with quiver pass, increasing the number of sweepers it can support.

So my argument is that Vivillian is without a doubt a better sweeper, while Smeargle is more reliable at securing the quiver pass, these are the two main roles of Venomoth. Why is Venomoth broken and these guys not broken?
 
Venomoth can sweep a bit then pass to a more suitable counter to whatever it can't beat. Smeargle has awful stats and vivillon has no BP
 
Ununhexium you sure about that? Cuz methinks Smeargle now has the option to sweep roughly as much as venomoth.

"standard spread"(according to the calc)

+1 4 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

much more likely spread

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 225-265 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

modest quiver pass smeargle

+1 252+ SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

timid quiver pass smeargle

+1 252 SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

timid tail glow smeargle

+3 252 SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 289-342 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

They both are pretty bad sweepers tbqh. So one again, what does venomoth have that smeargle doesn't? (It would appear that no one is arguing that vivillian isn't the better dedicated sweeper)
 
So, I haven't seen too many Salamence on the ladder. The first thing I realized is that Florges screws it over so much. Even at +1, Steel Wing isn't a guaranteed OHKO on the sp def set.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 324-382 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

You could run a full LO set, but with Mienshao and Mega Aero, it's outspeed easily and RK.

But, the Florges/Mega Aggron core shut down mence pretty easily.

4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

Both of them can cleanly 2HKO most sets between Heavy Slam/Moonblast with just SR on the field.

Ice shard from Donphan and Cloyster are pretty good checks as well.

Salamence has some pretty defined counters that are just barely 2HKO by a coverage move and can be RK pretty easily. So far, I'm feeling that he is definitely not on par with Daunt or Zone who could destroy teams with little effort. I'm feeling UU definitely.
 
So, I haven't seen too many Salamence on the ladder. The first thing I realized is that Florges screws it over so much. Even at +1, Steel Wing isn't a guaranteed OHKO on the sp def set.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 324-382 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
why the hell are you running steel wing?
252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 308-364 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 308-364 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
 
My little cent about Mence. He's quite outdated by Dragonite and Charizard shapes in OU, like sweeper too, with a little niche with DD Hydro Pump vs LandorusT and Hippodown. But I think he's very amazing for his strengh/versatility, probably too strong for UU.

Dragon Dance set, with Naive nature and Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast or Hydro Pump, LO but also Lum Berry for automatic confusion cure is inerithed by 5th Gen but it always crushing. And Salamence is enough bulky, also when he switches into Stealth Rock. But MixedMence and above all ScarfMence (a lethal revenge killer, late-game sweeper). And thought his weakness for Ice Shard priority

<hide>0- Atk Claydol Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 108-128 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 248-292 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 248-292 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock</hide>

I don't find nothing to remove him to BL.


P.S.: kokoloko, could be a good idea to report discussion result on first topic message.
 
Why is Venomoth broken and not Smeargle or Vivillian? Vivillian has better duel STAB and a more accurate sleep powder, making it without a doubt a better sweeper. Smeargle has more accurate/reliable sleep moves in spore or dark void(no immunities on the latter besides vital spirit/insomnia/having a status already, former is 100% accurate), meaning that it's arguable more reliable in the setup a sweeper ability. It's also less predictable for it has the option of running shift gear or shell smash along with quiver pass, increasing the number of sweepers it can support.

I'm 105% sure he just banned Venomoth to relieve the lower tiers since it simply was not a problem in UU but it was wrecking havoc on RU and especially NU.
 
TM13IceBeam Banded darm is actually pretty reliable and can secure some KO's that LO darm cannot, such as this one

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean lets face it, 95% of the time you send out darm, you are either clicking on flare blitz or u-turn, why ditch the power of the band if you are almost never taking advantage of the fact you can swap moves?

the funny part was that i actually typed in CB darm before deciding to remove it. eh, idk though, it works i suppose

also i do feel moth was a bit over the top, but eh whatever. (if smeargle is getting the boot it'll probably be for smashpass lol)
 
Shiny Minun I have never heard any council member / leader of any tier ever say that because a mon is broken in a lower tier, it should be banned in this one, in fact from the one's that I have heard speak on the issue, I have heard the exact opposite. If venomoth is broken in RU or NU, then ban it from RU or NU. They have perfectly competent leaders, let them manage their own tiers. I want some solid arguments for venomoth being broken in UU before I'm ok with it being banned from UU.

TM13IceBeam Why smash pass and not shift gear pass, tail pass, or quiver pass? Last I checked, all of those were perfectly viable sets. And the existence of boomburst means that a +1 or +2 smeargle is almost as threatening as an equally boosted venomoth.

So I'm being legit serious here, why is quiver pass venomoth any more threatening then quiver pass smeargle?
 
+1 252+ SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

they both do the same amount of damage. plus, who the actual fuck uses 252+ Spa smeargle.

Also, venomoth has tinted lens if you wan to take a bit more of an offensive
 
Venomoth is bulkier than Smeargle, too. It hardly matters because both are really, really frail, but Venomoth, at the very least, doesn't need sash.

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 220-259 (63.9 - 75.2%)
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%)

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 322-381 (102.5 - 121.3%)
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 322-381 (128.2 - 151.7%)
 
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