can we get an idea of how much longer salamence is going to take?
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Im pretty on the fence with salamence tbh. If ypu look at the other banned pokes like thundy t, crawdaunt and zone, you couldnt afford to give them one free turn or safe switch in (more so in the case of zone and daunt). There were very few counters with some shaky checks at best. Those pokes could beat said counters and checks with a coverage move.
Now for mence, it gets tricky. Dragon spam doesnt work anymore thanks to florges. Its coverage move in iron tail handles florges. But, dragon and steel get walled by steel types, which youd need a fire type move to handle. At this point, youd have to either pick another coverage move or roost, dd, hone claws, etc.. if you choose the latter, bulky waters like slowbro or suicune are safe switch ins. Modest 252 life orb draco meteor fails to ohko both. Slowbro commonly runs av as well. For jolly life orb physical variants, bro has a 60% to survive a +2 outrage at full health.
Checking mence is hard though. At base 100 and access to dd, it can quickly overwhelm the teams scarfers. Access to roost and intimidate give it longevity, which is what most people are running imo. so, i think on paper its easier to counter, but more difficult in actual battle.
Sr weak and nerfed this gen with fairy types doesnt take away from the fact that this dragon has a good opportunities to setup and sweep. Its moxie scarf set is outclassed by krookodile and heracross, but its dd, subhone claws sets is what makes it dangerous and unhealthy for the meta. Priority ice shard pokes can check mence (donphan and cloyster) with sr on the field, but there really arent too many pokes that can check mence once he starts boosting.
I say ban the mence for its ability to setup and sweep with ease with a few reliable checks once it starts booting.
Now for mence, it gets tricky. Dragon spam doesnt work anymore thanks to florges. Its coverage move in iron tail handles florges. But, dragon and steel get walled by steel types, which youd need a fire type move to handle. At this point, youd have to either pick another coverage move or roost, dd, hone claws, etc.. if you choose the latter, bulky waters like slowbro or suicune are safe switch ins. Modest 252 life orb draco meteor fails to ohko both. Slowbro commonly runs av as well. For jolly life orb physical variants, bro has a 60% to survive a +2 outrage at full health.
Checking mence is hard though. At base 100 and access to dd, it can quickly overwhelm the teams scarfers. Access to roost and intimidate give it longevity, which is what most people are running imo. so, i think on paper its easier to counter, but more difficult in actual battle.
Sr weak and nerfed this gen with fairy types doesnt take away from the fact that this dragon has a good opportunities to setup and sweep. Its moxie scarf set is outclassed by krookodile and heracross, but its dd, subhone claws sets is what makes it dangerous and unhealthy for the meta. Priority ice shard pokes can check mence (donphan and cloyster) with sr on the field, but there really arent too many pokes that can check mence once he starts boosting.
I say ban the mence for its ability to setup and sweep with ease with a few reliable checks once it starts booting.
Now that it has come down to it, I really think that Salamence should probably stay UU.
A lot of people say that one of the things that breaks Mence is its versatily, but I find that even though it has quite a few sets, a large portion of them are walled by particular Pokemon. The rather common Pink Core is rather big stop to it. Slowbro can take on any Mence set without Draco Meteor whereas Florges stops those without a Steel type move, and I haven't seen a set yet that runs both. Both of them can then threaten Mence with Ice Beam and Moonblast respectively. I'm just not see at the moment why it is so much stronger than any of the other sweepers at the moment. I find it to be very good but not broken at this point, as most teams can manage it, and I haven't had too many problems with it at all.
I think that one of the things that made it much stronger before was Haxorus, who Mence could beat and was a great partner for it. Haxorus could just punch through things that Mence couldn't making it an easy clean for Mence. But without his Dragon Duo partner it seems to be relatively well balance IMO.
A lot of people say that one of the things that breaks Mence is its versatily, but I find that even though it has quite a few sets, a large portion of them are walled by particular Pokemon. The rather common Pink Core is rather big stop to it. Slowbro can take on any Mence set without Draco Meteor whereas Florges stops those without a Steel type move, and I haven't seen a set yet that runs both. Both of them can then threaten Mence with Ice Beam and Moonblast respectively. I'm just not see at the moment why it is so much stronger than any of the other sweepers at the moment. I find it to be very good but not broken at this point, as most teams can manage it, and I haven't had too many problems with it at all.
I think that one of the things that made it much stronger before was Haxorus, who Mence could beat and was a great partner for it. Haxorus could just punch through things that Mence couldn't making it an easy clean for Mence. But without his Dragon Duo partner it seems to be relatively well balance IMO.
It's cool that this thread is debating Mence, but one thing I want to share that I've been using so that I don't have to worry about DDmence sweeping my team is my good old doge, with a twist...
Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 Spd / 16 HP
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Retaliate
With one calc to show the difference:
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 274-324 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Retaliate vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 376-444 (97.9 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
With Retaliate, Stoutland brings new meaning to the term revenge kill. This move is meant to be used early on in the game to punch massive holes, and secure KOs and/or force out things that it normally shouldn't. I was considering using Life Orb, but we all know Stoutland needs dat manly Choice Band to be able to do work. Stoutland is a lot cooler in UU compared to last gen's OU, as now there are no common Scarfers that can force it out. In addition, it now only has to deal with at most one priority move per game, unlike last gen, where it was looking to face Techloom, CBzor, and LO Mamo, all on the same damn team. And the fact that it deals with even LO Honchkrow's Sucker Punch with plenty of HP to spare, despite not resisting it, goes to show how much bulk it has for such a hard hitting 'mon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 199-235 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think people need to stop looking at HippoStout Sand as the semistall/balance that it was last gen, and treat it more as a hyper offense. I've been using Smooth Rock Hippowdon as more of a means to switch in, soak up a hit, put up sand, and switch back out. With eight turns of Sand, and Hippowdon's bulk, it is usually able to switch in and put up Sand twice, and eventually getting SR up, which is all a hyper offensive team needs to get Stoutland to do work. Overall, it's still a pretty cool 'mon in UU, even if it isn't broken anymore. And in this Mence meta, having something that outspeeds even Scarf Mienshao is always a plus, so I urge people to give it a try :3 Just make sure you have answers for Slowbro, Forry, and Sableye, as those are probably the three most resilient and annoying answers to both Hippo and Stout.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-125059433
EDIT: Here's a good replay. I'm able to play a lot more recklessly and offensively since I never worry about a DDmence sweep.
Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 Spd / 16 HP
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Retaliate
With one calc to show the difference:
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 274-324 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Retaliate vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 376-444 (97.9 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
With Retaliate, Stoutland brings new meaning to the term revenge kill. This move is meant to be used early on in the game to punch massive holes, and secure KOs and/or force out things that it normally shouldn't. I was considering using Life Orb, but we all know Stoutland needs dat manly Choice Band to be able to do work. Stoutland is a lot cooler in UU compared to last gen's OU, as now there are no common Scarfers that can force it out. In addition, it now only has to deal with at most one priority move per game, unlike last gen, where it was looking to face Techloom, CBzor, and LO Mamo, all on the same damn team. And the fact that it deals with even LO Honchkrow's Sucker Punch with plenty of HP to spare, despite not resisting it, goes to show how much bulk it has for such a hard hitting 'mon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 199-235 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think people need to stop looking at HippoStout Sand as the semistall/balance that it was last gen, and treat it more as a hyper offense. I've been using Smooth Rock Hippowdon as more of a means to switch in, soak up a hit, put up sand, and switch back out. With eight turns of Sand, and Hippowdon's bulk, it is usually able to switch in and put up Sand twice, and eventually getting SR up, which is all a hyper offensive team needs to get Stoutland to do work. Overall, it's still a pretty cool 'mon in UU, even if it isn't broken anymore. And in this Mence meta, having something that outspeeds even Scarf Mienshao is always a plus, so I urge people to give it a try :3 Just make sure you have answers for Slowbro, Forry, and Sableye, as those are probably the three most resilient and annoying answers to both Hippo and Stout.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-125059433
EDIT: Here's a good replay. I'm able to play a lot more recklessly and offensively since I never worry about a DDmence sweep.
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why not max out stoutlands speed
there is nothing wrong with using multiple priority users which i do on my current team
as for salamence i think it should be banned but i'm getting so tired of the argument "it breaks stall too easily". are we ever going to have a game where we say instead of "it breaks stall too easily" we say "stall is no longer a forceful playstyle"? blissey coming down could make stall much better of course and i am not saying the only valid reason to ban salamence would be because it is a good stall breaker, it is fantastic against all teams.
it reminds me of a lot of mao's little red book on his chapter of self criticism where he goes to quote the proverb running water is never stale. are we really preserving a balanced metagame or are we turning off the faucet of creativity by artificially propping up a failing playstyle?
am i deep or whaaaat?
there is nothing wrong with using multiple priority users which i do on my current team
as for salamence i think it should be banned but i'm getting so tired of the argument "it breaks stall too easily". are we ever going to have a game where we say instead of "it breaks stall too easily" we say "stall is no longer a forceful playstyle"? blissey coming down could make stall much better of course and i am not saying the only valid reason to ban salamence would be because it is a good stall breaker, it is fantastic against all teams.
it reminds me of a lot of mao's little red book on his chapter of self criticism where he goes to quote the proverb running water is never stale. are we really preserving a balanced metagame or are we turning off the faucet of creativity by artificially propping up a failing playstyle?
am i deep or whaaaat?
I like how people (in showdown) are saying that Mence is underperforming because it cannot break the common pink core. While this holds true, the fact that you have to run 3 of the sturdiest of defensive mons just to wall it implicates its brokenness. It limits teambuilding far too much.
so yeah i've been using dugtrio a lot and it's really one of my favorite pokemon right now, specifically choice band. the amount of things that it traps straight up is pretty unbelievable; empoleon, houndoom, un-mega'd megaman, roserade (offensive is straight OHKOd, defensive takes like 75-85), nidoqueen/king, ampharos, victini, heracross, mienshao, jirachi, and raikou are all very viable and very good pokemon that get flat out OHKOd. the existence of dugtrio on your team also creates a great "win condition" of sorts. if your team can't deal with something like escavalier or florges or shaymin, you can play really aggressively by sacrificing a pokemon to wear down their HP a bit (or status them in the case of florges) and then send in dugtrio for a guaranteed revenge. it's pretty ridiculous how much stuff it randomly picks off. it also makes people play weird (victini NEVER uses bolt strike)
it's not infallible, because pretty much everything that I just listed can OHKO dugtrio with ease. it's really high risk / high reward to play dugtrio. generally though, since he traps some really big threats, it's almost always advantageous to sacrifice something on your team that is less useful in order to remove what is often the opponent's highest pressure pokemon. trading a fodder mon for a full hp CB victini is very real. also double switches very well exist, but the other player is much more likely to tread carefully with dugtrio around; however smart plays can net essentially free KOs.
it's a good mon. use it.
it's not infallible, because pretty much everything that I just listed can OHKO dugtrio with ease. it's really high risk / high reward to play dugtrio. generally though, since he traps some really big threats, it's almost always advantageous to sacrifice something on your team that is less useful in order to remove what is often the opponent's highest pressure pokemon. trading a fodder mon for a full hp CB victini is very real. also double switches very well exist, but the other player is much more likely to tread carefully with dugtrio around; however smart plays can net essentially free KOs.
it's a good mon. use it.
Which are the three pokes you're talking about? Just curious.
The Pink core = Florges, Mew, and Slowbro.
I really don't like how the ladder is so incompetent right now in terms of realizing what's good and what's not, i mean it took people ages to realize scarf wasn't tini's best set and only now people are realizing that there are sets for hydrei other than scarf (lo 3 attacks+ roost is really good tbh). this leads me to mence, because i have not seen one person using DD lum with iron tail and fire blast, which really just destroys a lot of the tier at +2.
there's also the people that have the mindset that Pink Core runs the tier right now, when there is so much stuff that breaks through it that people never bother to use (i.e. chandy, shaymin, megahorn nidoking). i agree with pif that stall is a dying playstyle, pretty much due to hydreigon, and it's only going to get worse when tier drops come around as pokes like quag and vape are leaving and we're having shit like zam, luke, and volc. i dont think blissey will make stall all /that/ better when there is still so much stuff that can completely fuck it over, especially when mixed offensive pokes are getting somewhat more common.
back on mence, i personally think the best sets are the one i mentioned earlier and mixmence, who forces a FUCK ton of switches due to intimidate and hits a lot of shit for gud dommage. i'd also like to talk about durant which is actually really underrated (subsalac + hc + dualstab is p good) but i havent playtested enough with it to get a clear opinion on it.
there's also the people that have the mindset that Pink Core runs the tier right now, when there is so much stuff that breaks through it that people never bother to use (i.e. chandy, shaymin, megahorn nidoking). i agree with pif that stall is a dying playstyle, pretty much due to hydreigon, and it's only going to get worse when tier drops come around as pokes like quag and vape are leaving and we're having shit like zam, luke, and volc. i dont think blissey will make stall all /that/ better when there is still so much stuff that can completely fuck it over, especially when mixed offensive pokes are getting somewhat more common.
back on mence, i personally think the best sets are the one i mentioned earlier and mixmence, who forces a FUCK ton of switches due to intimidate and hits a lot of shit for gud dommage. i'd also like to talk about durant which is actually really underrated (subsalac + hc + dualstab is p good) but i havent playtested enough with it to get a clear opinion on it.
I don't really know if saying an entire ladder is incompetent because they use sets you find not as viable as whatever you think. I use ScarfTini with Trick which works better on my team than any other Victini set, namely CB or mixed. A lot of sets depend on what a team needs. If need a tanky pivot, a lot of people opt to go with defensive Mega-Amp, even though I find Agility or all out attacking just as great, I'm not gonna knock them for using it. And I don't recall anyone saying Scarf Hydre the set to use. I have been using LO with 3 attacks since it was unbanned, but I find scarf, specs, and mixed to be great sets to run.
And how is stall a dying playstyle? With mons like Florges and Mew running around, there are quite bulky teams, which is a lot closer to stall than Hyper Offense. If you recall, BWUU was mostly dominated by balanced or offensive teams. I would argue that defog killed stall teams. There is no reliable way to block defogging, and a lot of stall teams rely on some sort of hazard to beat the enemy team. With things such as Crawdaunt, Weavile, and Diggersby gone, one would expect stall to dominate, but there are just too many bulky things that can take on stall. And with the lack of good or viable defog-blockers, offensive teams are less likely to succumb to a stallish playstyle. I don't see how hydregion completely shits on stall. It still loses to things such as CroCune, most Florges, and practically any variant of stall.
And how is stall a dying playstyle? With mons like Florges and Mew running around, there are quite bulky teams, which is a lot closer to stall than Hyper Offense. If you recall, BWUU was mostly dominated by balanced or offensive teams. I would argue that defog killed stall teams. There is no reliable way to block defogging, and a lot of stall teams rely on some sort of hazard to beat the enemy team. With things such as Crawdaunt, Weavile, and Diggersby gone, one would expect stall to dominate, but there are just too many bulky things that can take on stall. And with the lack of good or viable defog-blockers, offensive teams are less likely to succumb to a stallish playstyle. I don't see how hydregion completely shits on stall. It still loses to things such as CroCune, most Florges, and practically any variant of stall.
I'm not saying that particular set is bad (i tried it and got raped but that's just me), but be honest, when scarftini was much more common in uubeta, do you really think trickscarf tini was common at the time? im pretty sure maybe 1/10 ran it.
i agree with what you say about filling specific roles (i personally think phys def mamph is one of the most underrated sets in the meta), but i didn't imply that scarf was the set to use, it's the fact that 8/10 of the ladder is running scarf which while it does fill a specific role, it makes playing against hydrei A LOT easier which is sad because hydrei is known for being one of the more unpredictable mons, and i kinda think that the fact that it had no counters in BWOU yet was still manageable still holds true here (i mean there are some people wanting it to get rebanned but idk). the point i'm trying to make is that we're not really using mons that have the capacity to be very versatile to their full potential and restricting ourselves to one or two sets.
also, you make some good points, but the thing is is that teams are much more prepared for it. crocune isnt even seen as much since its counters have raised in usage, granted not as much as they were in march but they're still a fairly common sight, mainly croaker. and 3 attack hydrei runs iron tail which 2hkos most florges trying to switch in on a predicted draco / dark pulse. there's also the fact that stallbreakers other than mew are becoming much more common, like crobat and sableye ( granted non-toxic crobat loses to bro and sableye loses to flogre but it's not like either of them are very hard to prepare for anyway.)
i agree with what you say about filling specific roles (i personally think phys def mamph is one of the most underrated sets in the meta), but i didn't imply that scarf was the set to use, it's the fact that 8/10 of the ladder is running scarf which while it does fill a specific role, it makes playing against hydrei A LOT easier which is sad because hydrei is known for being one of the more unpredictable mons, and i kinda think that the fact that it had no counters in BWOU yet was still manageable still holds true here (i mean there are some people wanting it to get rebanned but idk). the point i'm trying to make is that we're not really using mons that have the capacity to be very versatile to their full potential and restricting ourselves to one or two sets.
also, you make some good points, but the thing is is that teams are much more prepared for it. crocune isnt even seen as much since its counters have raised in usage, granted not as much as they were in march but they're still a fairly common sight, mainly croaker. and 3 attack hydrei runs iron tail which 2hkos most florges trying to switch in on a predicted draco / dark pulse. there's also the fact that stallbreakers other than mew are becoming much more common, like crobat and sableye ( granted non-toxic crobat loses to bro and sableye loses to flogre but it's not like either of them are very hard to prepare for anyway.)
I was just saying the standard ScarfTini is graet, but I personally run TrickScarfTini, which goes along with your point. And yeah, I just thought you were just belittling the ladder as a whole because of certain sets. No, I see what you're saying, and I do agree with you, but I just thought it was overly bold to say the ladder was incompetent.
And yeah, I feel like CroCune was dominate in the very early stages of UU (when Latias was still around), but now that Toxicroak is being used more, I definitely see less CroCune's being used.
Though, to be fair, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, and Jellicent that lack Taunt generally get PP'd stall by Suicine. I honestly think Pressure Stalling to that extreme is kind of unsportsman like, but it doesn't stop me from doing it lol
okay so the salamence vote has concluded and the results are split right down the middle. 6 BL, 6 UU. this means we were two votes short of allowing it back into UU.
i don't have time to post the paragraphs in the resource thread atm because i have to be at work in an hour, but perhaps panamaxis, Ernesto, or Limitless will edit them into the post i'm about to make.
Ernesto edit: Since we're having the June drops any day now, we're gonna let them stay around for two weeks before kicking them—and the next retest is being delayed meanwhile.
i don't have time to post the paragraphs in the resource thread atm because i have to be at work in an hour, but perhaps panamaxis, Ernesto, or Limitless will edit them into the post i'm about to make.
Ernesto edit: Since we're having the June drops any day now, we're gonna let them stay around for two weeks before kicking them—and the next retest is being delayed meanwhile.
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rip mence
welcome back brokemoth
edit: oh nvm, drops, cool
why did kitten milk vote twice on mence??
Ernesto edit: Oops. Fixed, sorry
welcome back brokemoth
edit: oh nvm, drops, cool
why did kitten milk vote twice on mence??
Ernesto edit: Oops. Fixed, sorry
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Swamp Link im p sure he said there wouldnt be any retests for a bit due to drops
speaking of which get ready for kis kis
speaking of which get ready for kis kis
I don't think Volcarona will change anything with Venomoth's vote (it gets torn up on stealth rocks limiting both of their switching power and it might get banned on it's own boosting power) but Goodra with it's already high special stats will probably get banning quiver passing a few votes.
If anything it will be the opposite, considering it has Sap Sipper to switch into sleep powder with immunity, as well as dragon tail to phase Venomoth or the recipient and remove all boosts. I would probably never use Goodra as a pass recipient when there is already stuff like the Nidos and Mega Houndoom that seem so much better at sweeping at +1/+1/+1. Goodra's below average speed and meh Physical Defense leave it susceptible to some of the most common scarf pokemon after a boost. Obviously the addition of one solid response to quiver pass doesn't mean that it won't still be broken, but it will definitely give Venomoth a better chance at staying in the tier (free VenoQueen).
They aren't remotely close to roles the only thing they have in common is quiver dance but Venomoth was suspected on grounds of support Volcarona is a pure sweeper.
I didn't say they were similar except for their x4 rock weakness and Volcarona might also be banned.
This isn't a definitive list as we don't have may's usage stats yet but it looks like
OU shit that is dropping to UU
- alakazam
- goodra
- volcarona
- manaphy
- lucario
- scolipede (already bl)
- quagsire
- smeargle
- vaporeon
- gardevoir (mega is already bl)
- manectric
- medicham (mega is already bl)
Only Volcarona is x4 weak Veno is x2 that aside I was replying to Volcarona in any way affecting Moth's ban status when they just don't run parallel to one another in any way so they really do not affect one another. I think Volcarona's impending ban is pretty obvious since it has very good coverage, it doesn't have Heatran to worry about which was the primary cause of its moveslot issues that and fire + bug are very good STABs in UU. Overall, the UU environment is makes it much easier for Volcarona since many of her checks don't exist here and bulky waters are a prevalent answer to fire spam, which she can easily bypass and even take advantage of with Giga Drain.
If I recall earlier posts also note Togekiss, Blissey, and Infernape as potential drop downs, though they are more uncertain we'll see in a few hours!
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Idk, if it got that many votes for BL I think it should stay there. It's a massive threat, and Klefki was annoying af.
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