aha thats fine. Lucs only real checks are slowbro w/o crunch and gligar and defencive nidoqueen w/o ice punch
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aha thats fine. Lucs only real checks are slowbro w/o crunch and gligar and defencive nidoqueen w/o ice punch
And hippowdon, and sableye, and aerodactyl, and scarf chandelure, and bulky volcarona, and victini, and shaymin, and hydreigon, and kyurem O.O
You mean counters, right? Luke has a looot of checks.
Mega-Alakazam is not broken.
Here are some examples of its power (all calcs assume Modest max SpA and max Spe):
Shadow Ball v 252/0 Slowbro: 73.1% - 86.3%
Slowbro survives, paralyzes, and is back up to half health with Regenerator.
Psyshock v 4/0 Lucarion: 85.4% - 100.7%
Lucario has an extremely high chance of surviving after SR and ohkos with Crunch or 2hkos with any combination of [move] and Extremespeed.
Shadow Ball v 4/0 Victini: 69.8% - 82.7%
Doesn't even ohko after SR half the time, and you're completely screwed if SR is not up.
Psyshock v 252/252+ Nidoqueen: 75% - 89.1%
Lol
These aren't comprehensive, but they go to show that only very frail offensive Pokemon face an ohko from M-Kazam, and even then only if it carries an SE move against them. This is due to the low base power of its moves (Weavile syndrome). Bulky offensive pokemon have no problem taking a hit or two and can strike back hard against its pathetic defenses.
I honestly think normal Alakazam with Focus Sash is a bigger threat than M-Kazam. It's even weaker, but at least it's guaranteed two hits against most Pokemon.
Here are some examples of its power (all calcs assume Modest max SpA and max Spe):
Shadow Ball v 252/0 Slowbro: 73.1% - 86.3%
Slowbro survives, paralyzes, and is back up to half health with Regenerator.
Psyshock v 4/0 Lucarion: 85.4% - 100.7%
Lucario has an extremely high chance of surviving after SR and ohkos with Crunch or 2hkos with any combination of [move] and Extremespeed.
Shadow Ball v 4/0 Victini: 69.8% - 82.7%
Doesn't even ohko after SR half the time, and you're completely screwed if SR is not up.
Psyshock v 252/252+ Nidoqueen: 75% - 89.1%
Lol
These aren't comprehensive, but they go to show that only very frail offensive Pokemon face an ohko from M-Kazam, and even then only if it carries an SE move against them. This is due to the low base power of its moves (Weavile syndrome). Bulky offensive pokemon have no problem taking a hit or two and can strike back hard against its pathetic defenses.
I honestly think normal Alakazam with Focus Sash is a bigger threat than M-Kazam. It's even weaker, but at least it's guaranteed two hits against most Pokemon.
Because of Suicune's Cursed Body too? ToxTect and Cursed Body is a really good strategy. Also, what is Water Absorb for anyway? Keldeo? Or the UU people who can't predict and use Water moves without thinking when you have Jellicent(and probably another water resist too) on your team? It sounds like you didn't think that one out, like I didn't with AV Umbreon.
Moltres is actually really good; sometimes I use a Roost+3 Attacks set, which is much more effective than SubRoost IMO because of SR. I'm not assuming it will be clear all the time, just enough times to Roost as needed and attack when not Roosting. It also has fairly good coverage not resisted by many things in Hurricane, Fire Blast, and a Hidden Power of your choose.
It is not even remotely comparable... A 100% immunity to one of the most common attacking types, as well status spreader, in UU versus a 30% chance at luck hoping for a disable. It is the same reason why Goodra tends to run sap sipper even if it is entirely a special variant an immunity is just that valuable.
Moreover, there is even less reliability when you start to consider other sets of Volcarona some of which carry sub or Chesto-Rest so that they can freely keep setting on Jellicent who lacks the immediate power, especially of a stall set, of the other bulky water variants as it will simply be a free Quiver Dance more or less. Overall, it just lacks the reliability to really deal with Volcarona as it relies on chance far too much to necessarily be considered such a feasible option.
Not when my opponent makes the mistake of getting into a calm mind war between Reu and Florges and I whip out the psyshock.
I'm not too sure what movesets most MegaZam run, but I'm assuming Psyshock/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Focus Blast. In the Focus Blast case, Lucario gets shat on. I think the issue is more of the fact that MegaZam shits on offense and stall so hard. Regarding stall:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 325-384 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 246-291 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 272-320 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 322-381 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 255-301 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 246-291 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 272-320 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 322-381 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 255-301 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So as most of the calcs show, MegaZam can 2HKO most vital components of the stall playstyle. Now I understand that there are a handful of Pokemon who can survive a hit (hence your list above), but we also shouldn't forget Alakazam's support movepool. With its title as the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier bar MegaAero, MegaZam's speed at a neutral nature sits at a Base 105, which is a pretty good benchmark in UU. This allows him to Encore most of the S and A Pokemon, lock them into a move, sack himself, and allow another teammate to set up and clean-up. The Encore --> Sweeper path has no prevention method (or any one I can think of), and allows you to gain a shitton of offensive momentum, especially with new set-up sweepers like Lucario and Volcarona.
tl;dr: MegaZam isn't just broken because of power, but also because of its support capabilities.
I didn't say Moltres wasn't good, I was agreeing with you about Moltres and just saying that not everyone likes having a 4x weakness to SR. Having to Roost half the times you send a certain pokemon out just isn't optimal even if that pokemon is good. That's why Articuno never sees any use even though it has regenerator+good stats. Rocks are always important.
As for Jelli, I don't think you understand how Suicune and Slowbro are taking Jelli's spot in most teams. Suicune and Slowbro aren't competing for a spot as checks to Volc, but as similar pokemon in general, they're just outright better pokemon than Jelli overall. Slowbro is pretty much the best physically defensive wall in UU right now, with Regenerator+Good typing for switching in to pokemon like Darm, Victini, Mienshao, or any physical attacker really. On the other hand Suicune is a great calm mind user with great defensive stats, and can come in and set up on a ridiculous amount of pokemon in the tier. I'd rather carry one of them over Jellicent, and run something else to check Volc, and don't tell me that Jelli is better than those two, because that's just outright wrong.
As for Water Absorb, the best way to explain how it works is say that its comparable to how pokemon with Defiant affect defoggers, it makes your opponent think, "Do I really want to use this move and risk giving my opponent a boost/healing his Jellicent for free?" This gives any pokemon on your team who are weak to water attacks an easier time, and gives you a pokemon that can take scalds absolutely risk free for physical attackers, meaning you don't even have to risk your water resist getting burnt more easily worn down. There's something to be said about pressing your opponent to be more conservative with their scalds/surfs/h-pumps, and I'd prefer an ability like that on a defensive pokemon over one that has a chance to sometimes get me out of a tight spot in certain situations. You're thinking of abilities that you'd run for one pokemon in particular, not one that would support the team as a whole. Any pokemon should be
Like, I'm really not being a dick here. I'm disagreeing with you and you're taking it as a personal insult. Chill man, its virtual cartoon monsters on an internet simulator, don't take posts on a web forum as personal insults.
If you make another snide comment I'm just dropping this entirely.
TL;DR
Cursed Body helps Jelli out occasionally, Water Absorb helps the team every game by pressuring your opponent on whether or not they really want to use a water attack as long as Jelli is around.
Yeah, looking at that calc from before it looks like you've got Mega-Zam beat with Reuni when you run max SpDef and get a free switch, since after a CM Mega-Zam can't 2HKO you and you can recover lost health + Mega-Zam doesn't have the bulk to take a Shadow Ball after a boost.
You say this like mega Zam can't come in on something like Nidoking and nab a sheer force boost, or come in off a double/vs on a natural cure user and no longer worry about that para while you have a dented Slowbro, right?
As for the Luc calc, Zam should also carry psychic/focus blast in one of the moveslot unless it uses disable/encore.
And what the fuck is that queen calc lol? Whats it gonna do back? 30-40% with no chance of secondary effects? Zam can carry psychic too you know.
Then I guess Nidoking and Queen are now dropping a few ranks if an S can check them and then screw the rest of the game. It's really just those and choice Darmanitan (scarf outspeeds him so no worries) that have sheer force and are viable in UU and if mega Alakazam stays none of the other users will come in with it.
Not until they actually decide whether or not Mega Zam actually goes BL, and chances are it will, in any event viability will only change once the fate of the drop downs have been decided.
FlareBlitz if you add in sr and one layer of spikes and i think the only one who has less than 19% chance to survive the ohko is slowbro with shadowball. I showed calcs a few pages back of how it can 2hko most special walls (umbreon, florges, snorlax) and your calcs showed that it can almost cleanly ohko most physical walls with prior hazards (which i just pointed out).
So, if UUs top walls are cleanly 2hko and ohko by mega zam with some hazards, what safe switch ins are there? Its exactly like crawdaunt where it has the coverage and ability to pick off its usual checks and counters. Sableye is a great counter on paper being immune to psychic amd focus blast and is the only poke not cleanly 2hko with hazards
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
But, megazam can run dazzling gleam and bypass its one true counter
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
I suppose spiritomb is a good option too, but lets not get too obscure now...
So, if UUs top walls are cleanly 2hko and ohko by mega zam with some hazards, what safe switch ins are there? Its exactly like crawdaunt where it has the coverage and ability to pick off its usual checks and counters. Sableye is a great counter on paper being immune to psychic amd focus blast and is the only poke not cleanly 2hko with hazards
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
But, megazam can run dazzling gleam and bypass its one true counter
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
I suppose spiritomb is a good option too, but lets not get too obscure now...
Let's not pretend that Mega Alakazam will be attempting a sweep versus an entirely fresh team. That he almost can (with no boost!) is not the hallmark of a balanced Pokemon. In fairness to FlareBlitz, Slowbro finds it really easy to stay healthy, but you have to apply JUST enough pressure to keep Slowbro around 85% with Stealth Rock and he can't stomach Shadow Ball (barring Assault Vest, but this leaves him with no recovery besides Regenerator and he can't paralyze you) anymore. Nidoqueen has nothing but Lefties recovery, good luck keeping her healthy enough with even the barest offensive pressure to take that Psyshock. This is all, of course, assuming you bring them in on Alakazam on a free switch. He hits insanely hard enough that he's gonna 2HKO a lot of Pokemon indiscriminately given one random attack on the switch followed by the appropriate attack on the following turn.
Nabbing a sheer force boost is incredibly situational, and Sheer Force doesn't even boost Psyshock. There aren't a lot of other abilities better than Magic Guard, either. Most of the time you're going to get a Torrent or something. Also, do people really run dual psychic coverage on this thing? I guess we're okay being walled by Sableye and betting on a 70% chance to win against Hydregion and Krookodile (no Dazzling Gleam) or auto-losing to anything with Sucker Punch (no sub / encore)?
Queen does back 50-60%, which is kind of a big deal since it's the kind of Pokemon you would try to switch in and "nab a sheer force boost" against.
That's a fairly well supported argument. Here's why I disagree.
First, those damage calculations are actually not that impressive. A 2hko against all those Pokemon is bad if it's a one-on-one scenario, because every single one can cripple, hurt, or kill Alakazam right back. Blissey paralyzes or poisons and protect-stalls, Florges does severe damage and can outstall if it's physically defensive wish / protect, umbreon ohkos, forretress ohkos, mew burns and stalls (barring SpD drops), Snorlax ohkos, Suicune sets up on you with CM. Now, if these Pokemon are switching into M-Kazam, you then have to predict and hit them with the right move on the switch, otherwise M-Kazam just ends up losing again. Compare this to the very powerful Pokemon that currently roam the tier - CB Victini, for example, outdamages Alakazam against all common stall mons with just V-Creates except for Suicune (Bolt Strike) and has better typing and bulk. Granted, M-Kazam is a lot faster, but that hardly matters against stall. And when you start talking about offense, well, offense has about as much trouble with M-Kazam as it does with M-Aero or Sharpedo (some, but not to a crippling degree).
I do see your point where you mention it's not just about the power, but also about the support. I agree that a Pokemon support capabilities are very important, but M-Kazam doesn't have any that normal Alakazam doesn't. And while Encore is a fantastic move, it's also the most predictable thing in the whole world, which makes it very risky. Even if you successfully Encore a Pokemon, it's just going to switch out, and you're left trying to predict which Pokemon will switch in so you can use the right move.
In my time with the 1600+ ladder I haven't run into a single situation where M-Kazam significantly threatened my team. And I didn't even have any psychic resists (I mostly relied on smart play with scarfers and things like Gligar and Swampert to check it). This isn't definitive proof of anything, obviously, but it makes me a lot less sympathetic to people claiming it should be quickbanned.
I do think mega zam should be BL , but not for the reasons mentioned. The reason mega zam should move up is because it literally has no safe switch ins, especially with rocks up. It can be revenge killed by most scarfers and mega aero which most teams pack, but you would have to sack something to get it in. The closest thing You can get to a comfortable switch in is sp.defencive sableye which dies to dazzling gleam if it is run and assault vest slowking which can take hits buth with rocks is being 3ohko'd by shadow ball at full health. The fact that it has no true counters only checks is what makes it broken. It runs through offencive teams with its coveredge and stabs and destroys bulky teams with psyshock coveredge and taunt. It is simply that good. With blistering speed absouloutely amazing sp.attack (it can run bloody modest and still outspeed all non scarfers bar mega aero) aswell as a good movepool and a decent ability (too situational IMO) make it one of the most borked things the UU tier has ever seen. If played well this thing can just destroy stall teams with its coveredge, stabs and taunt and give offence a nightmare because nothing can safely switch in.
Also goodra is not even close to broken ahaha. It has decent offences a good movepool and an insane sp.defence but its defence is somewhat lacking and its kinda underwhelming, IMO its best set is specs/band/curse rain dance dtail rest lol.
Volc isnt as borked as ppl think either. I can seriously see this thing staying in UU, though BL is fine aswell. The fat that scarf nape, mega aero, scarf darm, jellicent, fletchlinder, av goodra and blissey among other check it well, the fact that it never really gets an opportunity to set up against offence and rocks are everywhere could hold it back from BL. At the beginning of the tier I was so scared that volc was in UU, and although its great and sweeps teams withought checks, I have found it somewhat underwhelming.
Also goodra is not even close to broken ahaha. It has decent offences a good movepool and an insane sp.defence but its defence is somewhat lacking and its kinda underwhelming, IMO its best set is specs/band/curse rain dance dtail rest lol.
Volc isnt as borked as ppl think either. I can seriously see this thing staying in UU, though BL is fine aswell. The fat that scarf nape, mega aero, scarf darm, jellicent, fletchlinder, av goodra and blissey among other check it well, the fact that it never really gets an opportunity to set up against offence and rocks are everywhere could hold it back from BL. At the beginning of the tier I was so scared that volc was in UU, and although its great and sweeps teams withought checks, I have found it somewhat underwhelming.
You are calcing that with life orb on a bulky set, and Zam will in fact have psychic most of the time. Encoring/Disabling sucker punch doesn't even matter unless you run gleam since you can't take advantage of it unless you switch out. Who the heck even runs 252/252+ queen lol? Its offensive or go home since bulky cant even do decent damage to the things its supposed to take advantage of. You know, like florges?
And according to the usage calc, the standard zam set is Psyshock Psychic Focusblast Shadowball.
It is quite viable for Nidoqueen to run 252/252 def+ because of its typing...and if you think using Queen purely for offense, you're mixing it up with Nidoking. Nidoqueen is ran over Nidoking in some circumstances because of its bulk.
And Psychic isn't as useful as Psyshock for Megazam. Megazam runs Psyshock to hit things like Specially Defensive Snorlax and Specially Defensive Florges harder than psychic does. Generally, if a pokemon that is a special attack that learns both Psyshock and Psychic, they will most likely opt to run Psyshock because of its ability to hit special walls harder.
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Okay, there are at least 2 major problems here with your responses flareblitz
Firstly, even if it is a minor nitpick, please do not use murphy's law as an argument. By that I mean just because focus miss has a bad habit of living up to its nickname does not make mega-zam any less of a potent threat. 70% is still favourable (If Landorus-I taught OU anything in Gen V (and yes apologies for a non-UU reference)). Obtaining perfect coverage in 3 moves, while only missing out on a single pokemon I would say is generally worth it. Unless sableye magically reaches usage levels comparable to florges, but that is not happening anytime soon IMO despite some of the viability its gained.
The second, and far bigger problem I have is your constant reference to prediction. Its great that you can outplay mega-zam, if not expected of a player of your caliber, but the big problem with this is that it is such an incredibly biased argument. You can easily say that you can outpredict the user of mega-zam on a constant basis, but it does not take into account the mega-zam user outpredicting you. Now while this might not occur against you very often, its a very real and probable expectation for the rest of UU's player base to have to deal with. I get people can switch in CS victini and the like but by the same token I can just say the mega-zam user can outpredict the user of CS victini and select shadow ball. Note that both options are equally valid from a theoretical perspective, and very much considerable from a practical perspective (though I acknowledge factors throughout the match can change how favourable it is to select a move).
To follow up with 2 additional points
-While prediction is a key point, I don't particularly like that despite the checks you've listed will still have trouble switching into mega-zam in the first place. This is a very big problem for stall-based teams at least to deal with (alongside slower teams), as mega-zam is quite capable of 2HKO'ing/OHKO'ing nearly the entire meta given an ideal moveset, this creates huge pressure not to allow a single opening for mega-zam to exploit.
-In regards to the CB victini comparison, I don't particularly think that is fair, given mega-zam isn't choice locked. That does make quite the difference in terms of getting a pokemon in safely, as vs mega-zam you have to predict the initial move and not be susceptible to a different follow up attack (usually), whereas Victini you only have to predict the initial choice of move, given that you know the follow up attack will be the same one.
They are fair points you list for mega-zam, but they are rather biased, which I really don't like.
Stall has far bigger problems than alakazam, read choice band heracross+a phazer, mega houndoom, crobat, mew and a shit ton of other stallbreakers that can actually switch in directly into things. Alakazam is at its best cleaning up offensive teams once their scarfer is down as its capable of outspeed and ohko many common offensive mons without having to use a choice item such as the nidos, darmanitan, hydreigon, flygon, infernape, lucario (you can survive one extreme speed), mienshao, heracross etc.
Due to the new drops, the entire meta has shifted entirely in favor of a more offensive playstyle. Before, it was quite common to see Florges + Mega Blastoise (Bulky water) + Physical Wall on a team. Obviously, the this meant that most teams were able to deal with whatever dropped because of the nature of a defensive team. With Infernape, Volc, and Lucario, the meta has undoubtedly shifted towards a more offensive-friendly play style. Mega Zam is an offensive team destroyer in the late game. Healthy Walls, such as Suicine, Specially Defensive Hippo, and even Umbreon, will still fair quite well against Mega Zam.
The nature of Offensive teams is that they are forced to use pivot switches in order to grab momentum. Like I've stated before, the typical UU player had an answer to almost anything. Hydreigon was generally walled by Florges, Victini was generally walled by a fat water, and Mienshao was stopped by Slowbro/Physically Defensive Florges. Now that things like Lucario and Infernape exists, a defensive play style is less viable. At +2, Lucario can sweep entire teams with some hazard support, and even take out many common scarfers, such as Mienshao and Darmanitan.
Now that Volc and Lucario exists, where the two can set up on defensive teams that cannot harm it, players have adapted a more offensive play style. Mons such as Mega-aero are being used because of its ability to destroy offensive teams. Mega Zam falls under the same category. I feel if Volc and Lucario never dropped, things such as Florges and Mega Blastoise would still be used a lot, so people would have answers to Mega Zam. The arguments being made that Mega Zam is broken remind me of why Victini was being tested in 5th gen UU. In BW2 UU, Victini dominated most teams with its very extensive movepool. Its above-average speed tier let Victini beat most stall cores (Slowbro/Gligar, Umbreon/Cofag) coupled with its great movepool. If you needed a pokemon dead, you could use Victini (ie grass knot + V-Create + thunder). This is like Zam, except he destroys offensive teams, which is the exact opposite of what BW2 UU was like.
I feel people are too lazy to try to play around Mega Zam. Mega Zam can rarely sweep healthy teams because of its inability to boosts its stats (effectively in battle). It may seem unreasonable to keep a team healthy, but if you are in the mindset of constantly fighting an uphill battle, you are not battling correctly. With hazards, priority, and scarfers, zam will most surely be weakened. The fact that no obscure shit needs to be run in order to counter Zam is a good indicator that it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Mega zam is dealt with a lot of the mons that are currently used., such as Sucker Punch mind games, Scarf Tini, specially defensive mew with Knock off, bulky waters such as Suicine or Mega Blastoise. I just feel like people find a mon broken if it isn't easily counter-able by just 1 mon, like Hydreigon. Hydreigon is generally an issue for a team if Florges or a giant special wall doesn't exists on their team, but I don't think it makes it broken.
welp, just my 2 cents.
The nature of Offensive teams is that they are forced to use pivot switches in order to grab momentum. Like I've stated before, the typical UU player had an answer to almost anything. Hydreigon was generally walled by Florges, Victini was generally walled by a fat water, and Mienshao was stopped by Slowbro/Physically Defensive Florges. Now that things like Lucario and Infernape exists, a defensive play style is less viable. At +2, Lucario can sweep entire teams with some hazard support, and even take out many common scarfers, such as Mienshao and Darmanitan.
Now that Volc and Lucario exists, where the two can set up on defensive teams that cannot harm it, players have adapted a more offensive play style. Mons such as Mega-aero are being used because of its ability to destroy offensive teams. Mega Zam falls under the same category. I feel if Volc and Lucario never dropped, things such as Florges and Mega Blastoise would still be used a lot, so people would have answers to Mega Zam. The arguments being made that Mega Zam is broken remind me of why Victini was being tested in 5th gen UU. In BW2 UU, Victini dominated most teams with its very extensive movepool. Its above-average speed tier let Victini beat most stall cores (Slowbro/Gligar, Umbreon/Cofag) coupled with its great movepool. If you needed a pokemon dead, you could use Victini (ie grass knot + V-Create + thunder). This is like Zam, except he destroys offensive teams, which is the exact opposite of what BW2 UU was like.
I feel people are too lazy to try to play around Mega Zam. Mega Zam can rarely sweep healthy teams because of its inability to boosts its stats (effectively in battle). It may seem unreasonable to keep a team healthy, but if you are in the mindset of constantly fighting an uphill battle, you are not battling correctly. With hazards, priority, and scarfers, zam will most surely be weakened. The fact that no obscure shit needs to be run in order to counter Zam is a good indicator that it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Mega zam is dealt with a lot of the mons that are currently used., such as Sucker Punch mind games, Scarf Tini, specially defensive mew with Knock off, bulky waters such as Suicine or Mega Blastoise. I just feel like people find a mon broken if it isn't easily counter-able by just 1 mon, like Hydreigon. Hydreigon is generally an issue for a team if Florges or a giant special wall doesn't exists on their team, but I don't think it makes it broken.
welp, just my 2 cents.
Just bringing back this post from Stage 0 regarding Kokoloko's new banning system. I'm not going to make any new arguments now, as everything that I still find mildly objectionable (statistically) is adequately covered in the quoted post. The issue I have with Koko's system now is the threshold for BL/UU. Currently, the UU threshold is determined by a supermajority (2/3 approval, 66.67%). The supermajority ensures that a "more correct" decision can be instituted, as opposed to the erroneous simple majority. Koko did make the right choice in using the supermajority method; however, I believe that the 2/3 supermajority is a bit too restrictive for the threshold and instead should implement a 3/5 supermajority (60%) or similar large denominator fractions. I think that the 66.67% supermajority strives for an overly perfect metagame, and resultantly makes for some Pokémon's reentry even harder. In U.S. politics, the supermajority is used for extremely crucial decisions, such as expelling a member of Congress, impeachment, or overriding a Presidential veto, all of which are crucial decisions where the outcome has an extreme and definite effect on every single level of society, from economics to local politics (essentially an irreversible decision). The threshold differentiating UU and BL is less of a pressing matter and allows for room for adjustable error (i.e. if council believes that x Pokémon is becoming toxic and BL-worthy post-decision, they can easily just come to a new decision to re-ban the Pokémon). Due to this flexibility of reversing bad decisions, the supermajority qualification should be significantly lowered to 60%. A 60% supermajority ensures a strong level of correct decision-making without the level of absoluteness that comes with the 66.67% supermajority. Essentially, 60% on a council will guarantee that most of the decisions will be "more correct", especially when the sample size is in the teens.
Now to make sure that this 3/5 supermajority can be accomplished, a simple council rehash must be made. The change is nothing drastic. All that Kokoloko needs to do is to increase the council size from 12 to 15 (adding 3 more members). This allows for a perfect number for 3/5 supermajority (9/15). By introducing this new threshold, more BL Pokémon that aren't necessarily super-broken in the metagame but are restricted access due to the 2/3 supermajority can be admitted and make UU a more kinetic metagame without becoming an over-centralizing figure in the metagame.
Also, can we get a general sense of which direction the council is thinking regarding the bans on the new drops? I know the decision isn't going to be made until next week, but an indicator on council opinion would be nice.
The comparison is flawed. The issue with OU's initial banlist is that those things are never brought back down (kyurem-b being the only exception) and the amount of things that make up that list is ridiculous huge, far bigger than what was initially banned in UU. I initially didnt like UU's new system but now i have warmed up to it and actually think its MUCH better than what is being used in other tiers. The lack of suspect tests (which are flawed by nature as kokoloko itself puts it ''people vote based on their personal needs'') allows for a faster and mostly unbiased ban/unban process. The only issue i have with it is the klefk ban, which was widely agreed to not be broken and was banned anyway purely based on theorymon (just read the reasoning of the pro-ban council members on the bl retest thread). I dont have much of a problem with the majority used because of the more liberal approach being taken which makes retest of stuff very easy unlike what youre implying as im pretty sure it was said that everything is getting a second chance.
I don't think OU is going to consider letting everyone have a chance, some stuff like the title legendarys, 1-2 Deoxys forms and Shaymin-S are better off banned. Genesect got a retest with the steel nerf (I guess) but it was still too strong and until something radical gets added theres no reason to try him again.
After they decide what is Mewtwo levels of broken they can start judging stuff like Blaziken and Genesect that are on a controllable level but there's no reason not to use them or have too few or specific counters. For UU, the worst we have to deal with is Crawdaunt and Salamance who could cause problems in the game but are nothing like Zekrom or other insane stats.
Togekiss almost fell into our range and we would have to deal with its fairy type and paraflinch for a few weeks. However it's only 80 speed, its only going to use special attacks and we've been trying to find physical counters for Florges for a while so we could find a way around it and steel resists both its stabs to buy more time, we could give it a try. Shaymin S is very fast making its thunderwave worse and doubles as a revenge killer, can use physical attacks fairly well so special walls would still be in danger, it gets Seed Flare so ground types are gone, I don't think anyone wants to deal with that for 1 week.
For OU theres a point where you just have to keep it banned but for UU and RU you have to give each pokemon considered broken a second chance, see if it can be dealt with and then see if its BL counters can work their way in later. The reason they're at that level is because there's a full tier of pokemon above them that dont see them as a threat.
After they decide what is Mewtwo levels of broken they can start judging stuff like Blaziken and Genesect that are on a controllable level but there's no reason not to use them or have too few or specific counters. For UU, the worst we have to deal with is Crawdaunt and Salamance who could cause problems in the game but are nothing like Zekrom or other insane stats.
Togekiss almost fell into our range and we would have to deal with its fairy type and paraflinch for a few weeks. However it's only 80 speed, its only going to use special attacks and we've been trying to find physical counters for Florges for a while so we could find a way around it and steel resists both its stabs to buy more time, we could give it a try. Shaymin S is very fast making its thunderwave worse and doubles as a revenge killer, can use physical attacks fairly well so special walls would still be in danger, it gets Seed Flare so ground types are gone, I don't think anyone wants to deal with that for 1 week.
For OU theres a point where you just have to keep it banned but for UU and RU you have to give each pokemon considered broken a second chance, see if it can be dealt with and then see if its BL counters can work their way in later. The reason they're at that level is because there's a full tier of pokemon above them that dont see them as a threat.
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