Metagame NP: ZU Stage 1 - Introduction - Ludicolo Banned @63

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So whats the go with Drizzile?
Drizzile is unfortunately not viable here. It does have a good SPATK and decent speed stat, but it's special movepool is so thin, outside of water attacks. You even lack ice beam! And it's physical attack is not high enough to take advantage of its physical movepool either. The only way to use Drizzile is a screen set, with Light Screen, Reflect, Surf and U-turn, but Morgrem does that better (well except the pivoting). So yh, Drizzile is not really usable here.
 

Tuthur

海贼王波波
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm making this post to explain why Pyukumuku is broken. I see a lot of people complain about Mareanie or Eiscue, but both of these mons are far easier to handle. Reasoning on Mareanie or Eiscue has already been provided by the council, so I won't be discussing them.

Pyukumuku is an incredibly potent stallmon with very little counterplay. Now, I don't want to ban it because it's a stallmon, unlike a lot of people that get easily frustrated by stall. I have nothing against stall and am not making this post out of frustration, but rather because of my experience with (making) stall teams. There is a large number of ways to deal with stall, and good stallmons find ways to predict, counter or halt some of these methods. The problem with Pyukumuku is that almost none of them work:
Hello,
In my opinion, you cruelly underestimate Pyukumuku's weaknesses, and while missangelic gave you a great answer, I'd like to add some stuffs.
(P)Hazing: Pyukumuku does not rely on setup.
While Haze is indeed useless against Pyukumuku (except wasting some of its PPs), Phazing is one of the most reliable way to deal with Block Pyukumuku, since they forgo Toxic and therefore only rely on PP-stalling. Cufant is a noteworthy phazer, since thanks to its Toxic-immunity it doesn't fear anything from Pyukumuku and freely setup SR on its face and scout for its set.
Toxic (Spikes): It commonly carries rest for this purpose and good stall teams have a poison type and/or hazard control.
While agree that it can hard to Toxic Pyukumku against stall teams since they all carry Toxic-immunities and a Toxic-Spikes absorber, Rest isn't a miraculous solution to poison. What makes Pyukumuku very strong is its ability to avoid the 2HKO from a lot of sweepers, therefore consistently walling them with Recover. However, if Pyukumuku didn't trap the opponent with Block before it uses Rest, you can switch-in Pokemon that offensively pressure Pyukumuku (I'll list some of them latter) and therefore prevent it from burning its Rest turns.
Setup: Sadly, my preferred way of dealing with stall is rendered completely useless by Unaware.

PP-stalling it: using Rest, it can effectively conserve its own PP and Block+Spite can make short work of your own.
I group them togethere because you actually use setup to PP-stall Pyukumuku. A lot of stall teams exclusively rely on Pyukumuku to deal with some very powerful sweepers such as Wartortle and Eiscue. Pyukumuku can most of the time deal with one of them with either PP- or Toxic-stalling, but it can't be outstalled by several of them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1117705365 Here you can see Ho3n outstalling Pyukumuku with SubNP Oranguru and SubBD Eiscue, that are both very effective breakers even outside of the Pyukumuku match-up.
Brute Force: With the removal of Silvally-Electric, there are no potent electric types in ZU. You might think that Silvally-Grass would be an answer, but not only do a lot of Silvallies rely on Swords Dance, Pyukumuku can simply poison them and get out. On top of that, it could also suddenly reveal Counter or Mirror Coat, taking down your Silvally.
missangelic gave you a great list of reliable Pokemon that can at least 2HKO Pyukumuku. Additionally, even if Pyukumuku can take them out with Counter/Mirror Coat, it still takes massive damage from the hit and is usually to low on health to find another opportunity to Recover.
Taunt: While nothing except Linoone or sometimes Pyukumuku itself usally carries Taunt, the window for exploiting it is small, so staying in with Linoone and attacking could work. However, since Counter is not classified as a status move, carrying Counter could negate this strategy.
You forgot Torracat and Morgrem, that can also both run Nasty Plot to threaten stall teams. Also with Taunt, you can easily scout if Pyukumuku has Counter or Mirror Coat.
Encore: Nothing carries Encore, and even if it did, exploiting it would be hard due to setup not working and the possiblity of locking it into something detrimental like Toxic, Recover, Rest, Spite, Counter or Mirror Coat.
Yeah you're right, nothing really runs Encore here.

In my opinion, stall is a very potent playstyle rn on ladder because a lot of ladder players are inexperimented, and therefore struggle to find a gameplan versus stall or and build teams unprepared for it. However it isn't the sole factor, in my opinion teambuilding is very restrained because of two principal threats.

Toxic Spikes are a huge issue when teambuilding, because it forces you to run a grounded Poison-type (mainly :mareanie::gloom::ivysaur:) in every non-HO team (HO can still use :skorupi: which isn't terrible). Every team without one of these Pokemon is going to heavily struggle against Mareanie, because it beats every hazard control outside of Natu with Toxic and can switch for free on a lot of defensive Pokemon such as Gourgeist, Cufant, Klang, and Togetic. In my opinion, a Pokémon so restrictive that forces the use on every team of Mareanie, Gloom or Ivysaur shouldn't stay in the tier.
That being said, removing Mareanie does not solve the problem that is Tspikes, and Mareanie itself is not broken either in my opinion. [...] While Toxic Spikes are a nuisance, I believe we must continue to explore the meta and finding ways to play around Mareanie+Tspikes.
I don’t believe we have fully explored all of our options.
Toxic Spikes are extremely oppressive in the current metagame and Mareanie is easily the best setter available. [...], and I don’t believe that banning Mareanie will fix the issue of the dominance of Toxic Spikes - this is something that can only be resolved over time.
, I don’t see the good in banning Mare. It only prolongs a bigger issue with the centralization of Toxic Spikes and the limited absorbers / removers, which is a problem that needs more time and a larger scope to address fully.
Oustide of UC, I understand from this quotes that council members thought that ZU needed time to find answers to the T-Spikes issue. I'd like to know if some people have find other answers than playing HO or using Gloom/Ivysaur/Mareanie/Natu. Gloom/Ivysaur don't bring much utility outside of checking GrassVally and absorbing TSpikes, and I'd rather run something else in most of my teams. In addition, some Mareanie started to tec Natu with Gunk Shot (that also has other uses like 2HKO GrassVally), which makes Natu even harder to fit in a team (seriously Natu is super frail especially once Mareanie knocked its Eviolite). Since ElecVally, I only saw the issue growing. Not only was ElecVally the main way of offensively pressure Mareanie, but also a lot of Pokémon that were used to check ElecVally (Whiscash, Mudbray, Gloom) also pressured Mareanie. According to both 5gen and Durza, banning Mareanie won't solve the T-Spikes issue, but I'd like to know what they suggest to solve it outside of waiting to find more counterplays. I'm not confident that we'll find other stuffs to beat T-Spikes, and I really think we should ban Mareanie. Some of the council members theorized that if Mareanie gets banned, other T-Spikes users will takes its place. What's the problem with that? We could still revisited the ban, i.e. unban Mareanie and ban T-Spikes instead. Also I honestly doubt that Koffing, Shellmet, Trubbish, or Skorupi will be as effective or problematic as Mareanie, but anyway tiering should be based on the current metagame where Mareanie's T-Spikes are oppressive.

But there is also a second threat: Silvally.
Although popular Silvally forms from alpha (Dark, Fighting, and Electric) aren't available anymore, Silvally are still the biggest offensive threats in ZU. Multi-Attack's raw power after a SD is just absurd, even with a mediocre offensive typing like Bug or Psychic.
First of all, Silvally's large movepool allows is to chose its checks and counters. For example, GrassVally can pick 5 different moves (Flame Charge, Rock Slide, U-turn, Flamethrower, and Psychic Fangs) to complement SD and Multi-Attack. This unpredictability benefits a lot to the Silvally player. For example, if I have Mareanie, Togetic and Dusknoir in my team, one can for sure handle BugVally since it can't forgo Multi-Attack and needs SD, Psychic Fangs, Rock Slide, and Crunch to handle the core. The BugSilvally player knows exactly what Pokémon, they need to weaken in order Silvally to sweep after a SD, whereas their opponent who will struggle to keep their three Pokémon at high enough health in oder to handle BugVally. Also while it is common to have several Bug resists, it is quite uncommun to have several resists to all of Bug, Grass, Ice, Psychic, and Rock.
Moreover, the issue isn't only that all the 5 Silvally forms are good, but that, unlike Eiscue or Wartortle, you don't know at team preview which form it is. While Silvally with U-turn tends to reveal their type soon in the game, other tend to hide their type until they can either sweep or are forced to. Keeping your checks for a Silvally form is hard, but keeping your checks for every Silvally is extremely tough. That's why so many people use Defensive Klang and Pyukumuku: they can reliably check almost any Silvally through the game (Klang loses to Flamethrower Vally if it lost its Eviolite and Pyukumuku loses to GrassVally).
Moreover, Silvally is extremely bulky and you can't OHKO it without a super effective move from an offensive Pokémon, whereas it can easily at least 2HKO every Pokemon that doesn't resist its Multi Attack. This means that it can both easily find setup opportunities but also is hard to revenge kill. Silvally is also the 3rd fastest Pokemon available only outsped by Linoone and Drakloak, both can at best 2HKO Silvally (even Psychic), but can cripple them with T-Wave and WoW, respectively. Usually a Scarfer+one of the above Pokemon is enough to revenge kill Silvally, but at the coast of one Pokemon. However if Silvally finds the opportunity to Flame Charge this strategy is unreliable. After a Flame Charge, only statused Linoone outspeeds Silvally. T-Wave Morgrem can also prevent a sweep from Silvally, at the coast of one Pokemon. Consequently, it is hard to revenge kill Silvally and it is easy to setup Silvally.
Although none of the remaining Silvally forms is as busted as ElecVally, they all are very problematic both in teambuilding and in battle. In my opinion, ZU can't handle all Silvally forms, and ideally I'd only keep BugVally and maybe Rock or Psychic.

tldr: stall is good, but not broken, T-Spikes restrain to much teambuilding, Silvally is broken
 
Hi, I'm back with more on Pyukumuku. Both of the people that replied on my post have given their opinion on Pyukumuku and how to beat it, and I have to say, I agree with a lot of it. I will nevertheless explain what I think is debatable or flawed about these statements.

While I definitely agree that :pyukumuku: is a strong choice in ZU right now, I would not say it's unbeatable. :silvally:-Grass, :cherrim:, :gourgeist:, :glalie:, :maractus:, :gloom:, :ivysaur:, :thwackey:, and :charjabug: all threaten it with their STAB attacks, and each can be fit on a variety of different archetypes. Strong attackers and Pokemon with strong coverage options like :octillery:, :silvally:-Ice, :gastly:, and :gothitelle: also threaten Pyukumuku and make it hesitant to switch in, even against these potentially threatening setup sweepers.
The ones that I take issue with here are Gloom, Ivysaur and Charjabug, who usally run defensive investment and just don't have the required power to brute-force Pyukumuku. (and Thwackey without its HA is just bad in general) Pyukumuku also has enough bulk to withstand non-STAB attacks. Between all of the non-STAB options, Gastly is the only good one imo because of Toxic immunity and Trick shenanigans. Thunderbolt or Grass Pledge on Silvally just don't do enough, even against physdef Pyukumuku. Going back to the STAB options, I like this Glalie set as an answer to Pyukumuku: This does demonstrate though, that you will need a dedicated answer to Pyukumuku and good options are limited.

Glalie @ Shed Shell/Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Super Fang
- Freeze-Dry

Running setup in front of Pyukumuku also isn't entirely impossible. :duosion:, :gothitelle:, :lunatone:, and :sinistea: can all get away with setting up in its face thanks to Stored Power. Duosion even has the luxury of Magic Guard, which totally shields it from Toxic.
Unless you have rest, the only viable option here (at least against Toxic Pyukumuku) is my baby, Stored Power Duosion. I'm suprised I forgot about this, since it beats every set but Taunt Pyukumuku. Since a lot of players underestimate SP or are unfamiliar with it, they won't be afraid of setup moves, and even with Unaware, a 380 bp move (or 260 without Acid Armor) from the mon with the highest spatk in the tier drops hard.

I group them togethere because you actually use setup to PP-stall Pyukumuku. A lot of stall teams exclusively rely on Pyukumuku to deal with some very powerful sweepers such as Wartortle and Eiscue. Pyukumuku can most of the time deal with one of them with either PP- or Toxic-stalling, but it can't be outstalled by several of them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1117705365 Here you can see Ho3n outstalling Pyukumuku with SubNP Oranguru and SubBD Eiscue, that are both very effective breakers even outside of the Pyukumuku match-up.
The fact that the highest laddered player needed two powerful sweepers with Substitute to defeat a "too passive" cucumber kinda shows what I'm talking about. This is the only way to use setup if there is a Pyukumuku on the oppsing team. Every time you try to set up, the opponent just plops down this cucumber and is like: Whatcha gonna do now, huh? Even if you have something like Silvgrass, the opponent can just go into something better. Now you might be thinking: I can just SD and kill whatever comes in, right? But no, imagine it predicts that and goes for Toxic. Congratulations, your Silvally is now screwed. If an opposing Pyukumuku is still alive, setup becomes very difficult to pull off. While pp-stalling a Pyukumuku with an already set up sweeper is usallly a gg, if it effectively uses Spite and Rest, it can waste 8 opposing pp for 2 of its own. You will need multiple high-pp setup sweepers to defeat Pyukumuku this way.

I would also like to point out that while tricking it a choice item is definitely crippling, it can still counter setup just by being there and locking itself into rest or something (yes, this is easier to pp-stall). Giving it a Toxic Orb can actually be a boon in pp-wars, since taking damage is essential to waste 3 turns with one rest. It will go to its rest pp quickly though, but because Toxic has to starts over, this isn't always a problem. Pyukumuku on its own can be dealt with the right movesets, but throw it into a good stall team, and you're in trouble. The pressure from opposing t-spikes or bulky sweepers can prevent you form freely pivoting around the damn thing.

I would like to end this by saying that while I don't have enough experience with Silvally to say anything definitive about it, both my "critics" had a similar opinion on Mareanie. I don't mind setting a high ban requirement for Pyukumuku, but then also do so for Mareanie, which in my opinion isn't nearly as dangerous or annoying as Pyukumuku. I faced a fearsome stall team that successfully used t-spikes Skorupi with rest paired with a heal bell Togetic. And of course, a Pyukumuku to counter all my setup mons. I used a special Grassvally and still lost. (Grass Pledge did 42%) If a lot of people don't want the cucumber banned, then it should at least be S-tier on the VR.

PS: Please don't ban Grassvally too, I need to sleep at night.
 
Hi, I'm back with more on Pyukumuku. Both of the people that replied on my post have given their opinion on Pyukumuku and how to beat it, and I have to say, I agree with a lot of it. I will nevertheless explain what I think is debatable or flawed about these statements.



The ones that I take issue with here are Gloom, Ivysaur and Charjabug, who usally run defensive investment and just don't have the required power to brute-force Pyukumuku. (and Thwackey without its HA is just bad in general) Pyukumuku also has enough bulk to withstand non-STAB attacks. Between all of the non-STAB options, Gastly is the only good one imo because of Toxic immunity and Trick shenanigans. Thunderbolt or Grass Pledge on Silvally just don't do enough, even against physdef Pyukumuku. Going back to the STAB options, I like this Glalie set as an answer to Pyukumuku: This does demonstrate though, that you will need a dedicated answer to Pyukumuku and good options are limited.

Glalie @ Shed Shell/Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Super Fang
- Freeze-Dry



Unless you have rest, the only viable option here (at least against Toxic Pyukumuku) is my baby, Stored Power Duosion. I'm suprised I forgot about this, since it beats every set but Taunt Pyukumuku. Since a lot of players underestimate SP or are unfamiliar with it, they won't be afraid of setup moves, and even with Unaware, a 380 bp move (or 260 without Acid Armor) from the mon with the highest spatk in the tier drops hard.



The fact that the highest laddered player needed two powerful sweepers with Substitute to defeat a "too passive" cucumber kinda shows what I'm talking about. This is the only way to use setup if there is a Pyukumuku on the oppsing team. Every time you try to set up, the opponent just plops down this cucumber and is like: Whatcha gonna do now, huh? Even if you have something like Silvgrass, the opponent can just go into something better. Now you might be thinking: I can just SD and kill whatever comes in, right? But no, imagine it predicts that and goes for Toxic. Congratulations, your Silvally is now screwed. If an opposing Pyukumuku is still alive, setup becomes very difficult to pull off. While pp-stalling a Pyukumuku with an already set up sweeper is usallly a gg, if it effectively uses Spite and Rest, it can waste 8 opposing pp for 2 of its own. You will need multiple high-pp setup sweepers to defeat Pyukumuku this way.

I would also like to point out that while tricking it a choice item is definitely crippling, it can still counter setup just by being there and locking itself into rest or something (yes, this is easier to pp-stall). Giving it a Toxic Orb can actually be a boon in pp-wars, since taking damage is essential to waste 3 turns with one rest. It will go to its rest pp quickly though, but because Toxic has to starts over, this isn't always a problem. Pyukumuku on its own can be dealt with the right movesets, but throw it into a good stall team, and you're in trouble. The pressure from opposing t-spikes or bulky sweepers can prevent you form freely pivoting around the damn thing.

I would like to end this by saying that while I don't have enough experience with Silvally to say anything definitive about it, both my "critics" had a similar opinion on Mareanie. I don't mind setting a high ban requirement for Pyukumuku, but then also do so for Mareanie, which in my opinion isn't nearly as dangerous or annoying as Pyukumuku. I faced a fearsome stall team that successfully used t-spikes Skorupi with rest paired with a heal bell Togetic. And of course, a Pyukumuku to counter all my setup mons. I used a special Grassvally and still lost. (Grass Pledge did 42%) If a lot of people don't want the cucumber banned, then it should at least be S-tier on the VR.

PS: Please don't ban Grassvally too, I need to sleep at night.
Allow me to add a few things. Yes Gloom, Ivysaur and Charja are all passive, but Gloom and Ivysaur carry Giga drain, while Charja carries Volt Switch. Gloom and Ivy both carry Sleep Powder and are both imune against toxic, so they can just make it sleep and then 3Ko it with Giga Drain. Due to this, while not the best, they still are answers to Pyukumuku.

0 SpA Gloom Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 114-134 (36.3 - 42.6%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Ivysaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 108-128 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 52.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And in Charjabug's case, while it does not hit hard with Volt Switch, it can still pivot out and then change to another pokemon like Natu, who can just bounce Pyukumuku's status attacks back. Calling Pyukumuku "broken" is a strech, as things like Natu can completely shut it down and mons like Nasty Plot Morgrem can take advantage on it. Special Vallys that carry Thunderbolt can actually break Pyumuku. Just look.

252 SpA Silvally-Ice Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 126-150 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, the damage is not so bad. And all of them can just then pivot out to another mon with U-Turn. Regarding the part with special grassvally, your opponent must have had a different EV spread. Because phydef is normally 2Koed by Grass Pledge.

252 SpA Silvally-Grass Grass Pledge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 168-200 (53.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now regarding the trick part, you say that Pyu can just use Rest forever and pp stall you. However in that case, the most simple solution would be to switch between mons( if no hazards are up). Due to this, Pyuku will pp stall itself and will then struggle later on.

Also Pyukumuku being S Rank is completely ridiculous. Even if it is frustrating to face, it is relatively easy to predict, due to its shallow movepool. It doesn't even dominate the meta, as grass types can still break through it.

Overall, Pyukumuku is not only broken enough in my eyes, but it is also necessary for the meta. It is one of the few SD vally checks after all. Imagine what would happen if Pyukumuku got banned? Then the Silvally's would break havoc, like they did during specs ZU. I really understand that it is frustrating to face Pyuku; I'm speaking from experience mind you. But as long as a mon has enough counters, then there is no reason for it to be banned. It can only defeat grass types by using toxic or counter/mirror coat and is really vulnerable to Taunt. And unlike last gen, it can no longer hold a poisinim Z to use Toxic. All in all, I believe that Pyukumuku doesn't fill enough criterias to be considered "Broken". That's all I have to say.
 
I just wanna add a few points to the discussion that has been using flawed sets/assumptions imo
-Ivysaur has to run a max special attack spread considering its a balance/stallbreaker and it needs the damage output to pressure stuff like Mareanie and Dusclops considerably with Energy Ball and Gourgeist-L with Sludge Bomb.
-Both Gloom and Ivysaur add a lot more to the team than absorbing tspikes because they check the common balance core of Togetic+Silvally-Grass+Mareanie on the same slot, while also keeping stuff like Whiscash, Machoke and Wartortle in check.
-Saying the Silvally form is unpredictable is just wrong, now that our best forms are Grass, Rock and Psychic, you can usually tell which form it is by looking at the remaining pokemon in the team, because most teams carry pokemon of each of those types and if they double on it, it's usually a teambuilding flaw and you can take advantage of that (with some exceptions like Lunatone + Silv-Rock which work good together), and Bug and Ice are much easier forms to handle defensively or offensively.
-Silvally has a 4mss, and the big issue is imo the Flame Charge/U-turn slot, by dropping one of those u usually miss on either sweeping potential or defensive utility during the early game, and all forms but Psychic usually have an optimal coverage move that they run, like how Grass runs Rock slide and Ice, Bug and Rock run Psychic Fangs. Silvally's coverage isnt that hard to play around for more defensive teams. I do agree offensive teams struggles with Silvally more though, but they should.
-Pyukumuku isn't broken, it's just annoying and it is checked naturally by our common teambuilding templates. Almost every team in the metagame has a Grass, Dark and Poison type, and most grass or poison types handle pyukumuku without much effort. Sub Thievul and Taunt Linoone also handle it. Taunt is also a very common move in mons like Torracat, Thwackey, Linoone, Beartic, Morgrem, Glalie and so on...
 
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5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Tier Shifts are out!

Dusknoir moved from ZU to PU
Gourgeist moved from ZU to PU
Pyukumuku moved from ZU to PU
Silvally-Bug moved from ZU to PU
Silvally-Electric moved from ZUBL to PU
Dusclops moved from ZU to PU
Mareanie moved from ZU to PU

Persian moved from PU to ZU
Pincurchin moved from PU to ZU
Slowpoke-Galar moved from PU to ZU

While the shifts leave a lot to be desired, ZU gains two interesting and potentially highly drops in Persian and Pincurchin. Slowpoke-Galar is most likely unviable without Regenerator through.
 
Now that :Slowpoke-Galar: is in ZU maybe this set become somewhat viable. Well it still has :Wobbuffet: and :Wynaut: as competition but at least its more viable than dual screens :Drizzile:

Bulky Death Fodder
Slowpoke-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Disable
- Whirlpool
- Scald
- Thunder Wave

Also since PU took :Mareanie: will is T-Spikes no longer broken?
 

5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Now that :Slowpoke-Galar: is in ZU maybe this set become somewhat viable. Well it still has :Wobbuffet: and :Wynaut: as competition but at least its more viable than dual screens :Drizzile:

Bulky Death Fodder
Slowpoke-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Disable
- Whirlpool
- Scald
- Thunder Wave

Also since PU took :Mareanie: will is T-Spikes no longer broken?
Hey. While I appreciate you trying to spark some discussion about a new Pokemon, Slowpoke-G and the rest of the Pokemon in your post are not viable and the post has caused numerous users to give trivial replies (which I have deleted). In the future, please abide by the forum rules and try to spark healthier discussion when you post. ZU's Discord and PS! room are the perfect places for discussions like this.

As for Toxic Spikes, we lost the best Toxic Spikes setter when Mareanie rose to PU, but also received Pincurchin, who should be an effective Toxic Spikes setter. Similarly to Mareanie, Pincurchin can play around entry hazard removers such as Togetic because of its good power and Electric Terrain boosted STAB. Though Ivysaur and Gloom are still here and help greatly against Toxic Spikes, Toxic Spikes are still very threatening. It'll take time to see if they remain as threatening as with Mareanie around or not.

I want everyone to take this as notice to read the rules in the OP and to avoid posting one-liners and useless posts that do not contribute to healthy discussion because I will delete them.
 
First impressions on the june shift and what gets better and worse

:persian: - The speed control we needed. This makes setup sweepers much less threatening, being able to Fake Out chip stuff like the Silvallys, Thievul and Wartortle is very good for hyper offense builds that struggled to beat those mons once they set up. It also has a wide movepool and can use a Nasty Plot set, Taunt/Toxic and other disruptive moves to help teams that need it to stallbreak.

:pincurchin: - Spiky is a very interesting drop that despite being extremely annoying to play against has a cool movepool and stat spread that lets it hit from both sides of the spectrum and set spikes/tspikes. It pressures common hazard removers like Togetic, Vullaby and Wartortle but unlike Mareanie, it can't remove toxic spikes for its team. It also has two good abilities. Electric Surge, which is amazing for itself so it can hit those same defoggers harder and for Thievul, which can abuse Electric Seed to have a 3rd set up option now. Electric Surge also prevents defensive mons like Klang from using Rest. Lightningrod is also useful for the mirror Pincurchin and to stop Charjabug and Klang from Volt Switching. It also has some underexplored potential on Trick Room!

So what got better?

:drilbur: :dartrix: - These 2 are interesting hazard removers that have a good matchup versus Pincurchin and can support the team with Stealth Rocks and Knock Off respectively. Dartrix also appreciate that Mareanie is no longer in the tier so it can't be toxiced and pressured.

:mudbray: :pupitar: :onix: - These 3 are good hazard setters that have a good matchup vs both Pincurchin and Persian. Mudbray can find more use in offensive teams now as a Persian check to absorb Fake Out. Pupitar will likely see more use in balanced builds now and while Onix was already being used a lot, it's even more splashable.

:Silvally: Psychic and Rock - These two really appreciate Pyukumuku leaving the tier and can now abuse their breaking power (In Silvally-Psychic's case) and gained more defensive utility in their ability to check Persian (in Silvally-Rock's case)

:wartortle: - The biggest winner from this shift. Not only did we lose its 2 biggest counters in Pyukumuku and Mareanie, the fact that we lost Dusclops and Dusknoir makes running Rapid Spin very good for offensive builds, especially because all our remaining ghosts bar the never seen Frillish die to Water/Ice coverage.

:Seaking: - Yes, Seaking. Lightningrod might make it a good annoyer to tech for Pincurchin. Access to swords dance, knock off and toxic make it a decent supporter/breaker and i expect to see it a bit more this month

:Thievul: - Already mentioned it got better with Pincurchin but it's worth noting that it has a lot more freedom on its moveset now, being able to fit moves such as Protect, Taunt and Grass Knot to have even less reliable checks. Also i expect Togetic to see a bit less usage, which really benefits this guy.

:ivysaur: :gloom: - I don't really think those 2 are much better right now, but they lost competition as Toxic Spikes absorbers, so i think it's worth a mention

And what got worse?

:Silvally: Grass - Silvally-Grass loses a lot of appeal for 2 reasons, it competes for the Grass-type slot with the best Toxic Spikes absorbers in Ivysaur and Gloom, and it lost its niche of being able to break Pyukumuku (I guess it can still break Wooper so yay). I feel like Silvally-Psychic is now the best Silvally form by a long shot.

STALL - This is obviously a given, but the loss of Pyukumuku, Mareanie and Dusclops makes running stall much harder and people are gonna have to figure out the very next best stall build. Counting on you Mirbro

:Togetic: :Vullaby: - Those two are obviously still very good but they're much less reliable now due to Pincurchin. Unlike Mareanie, Pincurchin can get Toxiced though, so i expect Toxic to be a much more common move on those 2 in the near future.

:Natu: - Natu reallly got shafted with Pincurchin in the tier, i expect this little dude to drop at least a full rank in the next VR slate. It might be Hatenna's time to shine!

:Linoone-Galar: :Drakloak: - These 2 have competition from Persian now as revenge killers and fast pivot mons. I don't think they will be bad but I expect them to see less usage

:Klang: :Machoke: :Zweilous: - These 3 now have a lot less utility as defensive mons due to relying on Rest for recovery, being easily abusable by Pincurchin's Electric Surge, though they have other roles and are all still really good.

Well, that's it. I'm really hyped for the starters hidden abilities and this is looking like an interesting month of ZU! If I forgot anything let me know!
 
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I think substitute is a underrated move, I've been using with flamethrower, energy ball, calm mind Lampent and it's great you can setup on mon like Gloom, Togetic, Klang, Ivysaur(without knock off), Gourgeist(without ghost moves), outspeed half of the tier, the flamethrower energy ball coverage hit normal or super effective on almost everything and with subs I don't have to predict all the time. Without Pyukumuku the setup sweepers can reapper

(sorry if I wrote something wrong, I was really shy because I don't know how to speak english, but I think subs it's a great contribution for the meta)
 

5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Hi all, I've decided to make a post that compiles new stuff relevant to ZU to make things easier to look at. Here is a sheet of leaked moves and here is all the raw info I sifted through. Shout outs to the people that made those two resources, they were a huge help.
:sandshrew: :sandshrew_alola:
:kadabra:Teleport
:tentacool:
:slowpoke: Psychic Terrain, Stored Power, Teleport
:magnemite: Rising Voltage
:onix: Scorching Sands
:lickitung: Body Press
:tangela: Grassy Terrain
:seadra: Flip Turn, Scale Shot
:seaking: Flip Turn
:staryu: Flip Turn, Teleport
:porygon:Teleport
:marill:
:loudred:
:carvanha: Flip Turn
:lunatone: Meteor Beam
:baltoy: Scorching Sands
:shedinja: Poltergeist, Skitter Smack
:luxio: Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
:cherrim: Grassy Glide
:hippopotas: Scorching Sands
:venipede:
:whirlipede:
:krokorok: Lash Out, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack
:maractus: Grassy Glide
:dwebble: Skitter Smack
:scraggy: Lash Out
:zorua: Burning Jealousy
:duosion: Expanding Force
:foongus:
:klang: Rising Voltage, Steel Roller
:lampent: Burning Jealousy
:mienfoo: Close Combat
:rufflet: Dual Wingbeat
:fletchinder:
:spritzee: Misty Explosion
:swirlix: Misty Explosion
:skrelp: Flip Turn
:gourgeist: Grassy Glide, Skitter Smack, Poltergeist
:dartrix: Grassy Glide, Dual Wingbeat
:brionne: Flip Turn
:charjabug: Rising Voltage, Skitter Smack
:sandygast: Shore Up
:oranguru: Terrain Pulse, Expanding Force
:hakamo-o: Scale Shot
:thwackey: Grassy Glide
:dottler: Expanding Force
:thievul: Burning Jealousy, Lash Out
:morgrem: Burning Jealousy. Lash Out
:pincurchin: Rising Voltage
:cufant: Steel Roller
Kubfu seems decent enough, 90 Atk and 72 Spe with 60/60/50 bulk, access to CC/U-turn/BU/other decent coverage. Probs a worse Mienfoo though imo.

Also, I excluded unviable mons and mons that got moves they'd never run, all my judgement (i.e poliwhirl getting muddy water).

List of all legal NFEs (did not include broken ones such as Chansey, Porygon2, and Scyther): +sandshrew, +jigglypuff, +psyduck, +poliwag, +poliwhirl, +abra, +kadabra, +tentacool, +slowpoke, +magnemite, +exeggcute, +cubone, +lickitung, +tangela, +horsea, +seadra, +staryu, +porygon, +igglybuff, +marill, +whismur, +loudred, +carvanha, +azurill, +shinx, +luxio, +buneary, +happiny, +lillipup, +herdier, +venipede, +whirlipede, +petilil, +sandile, +krokorok, +zorua, +foongus, +mienfoo, +larvesta, +fletchling, +fletchinder, +skrelp, +clauncher, +rockruff, +fomantis, +sandygast, +sandshrew-alola

Purely speculation, I think in the near future we can expect to get Wigglytuff, (Golduck maybe?), Dunsparce, Luxray, Lopunny, Emolga, and Dedenne.

I just want to say that I'm pretty excited for all these changes. Personally I haven't been enjoying these past few months of ZU metagame-wise but these changes have already been pretty fun in the room tours we've had. Looking forward to see how everything pans out.
 
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Tuthur

海贼王波波
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello, I wanted to give my thoughts on the changes induced by the DLC.

New Mon:
:tangela: is incredibly bulky, it is an universal physical blanket, that beats most physical attackers like the Vally, Machoke and Gourgeist. It's very hard to weaken due to Regenerator and Giga Drain recovery. I have found this Pokemon rather hard to play against because due to its high SpA (100), most special wallbreakers can't switch on it. Moreover it is so bulky, that some strong hits fail to OHKO it, like Choice Band Adamant Raboot's Flare Blitz. However adaptation exists, like Silvally-Ice or Whirlipede. If I had to vote on it, I'd vote ban without a doubt, though.
:kadabra: isn't as good as I expected. It can break through Dark-types with Dazzling Gleam, but can't real do anything to Psychic and Steel-types. I expect it to be a top tier, especially since Sash Counter is extremely good and due to its speed tier and natural power. However, unlike Tangela, if I had to vote on this, I'd keep it in the tier (but I'd keep an eye on it).
:krokorok: is kinda underwhelming. It doesn't hit hard, isn't bulky, and isn't fast. However, it has a great typing and useful movepool. Thanks to its two immunity it can prevent Pincurchin and Kadabra from spamming their powerful STAB, and with Taunt+Stealth Rock, it can easily keep SR up versus most defoger. Also STAB Knock Off is always super good.
:seadra: I haven't much experience with it (I never faced it, and only used it in one team), but I'd like to give my opinion on the Scarf set. Seadra is the second faster Scarfer after Jolly Raboot, making it an excellent revenge killer. It hits pretty hard with 95 SpA and Hydro Pump, but it competes with Seaking, that while hitting less hard has a stronger Flip Turn (Seadra's Flip Turn is super underwhelming), access to Knock Off, and an Electric immunity. I'm still not sure which is the best overall between Seadra and Seaking, but I lean toward Seaking.
:whirlipede: Great Spiker and great T-Spike absorber. It really appreciates that nobody runs Natu anymore and is great physical tank, able to wall most Grass-types and Machoke. It has a lot of options between Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Protect, Toxic, Smack Skitter, Endeavor, and Infestation. It's overall a great Pokemon that I expect to see on most bulky offense.
:lickitung: is so FAT. It's for sure our best Wisher, and is a great special blanket thanks to a great support movepool (Heal Bell, Knock Off, Wish) and super high bulk. However it struggles against set up and toxic spikes, so be sure to have other options against special attackers.
:jigglypuff: is fsr good. While it isn't as bulky as Lickitung and doesn't have a great ability like Oblivious, it has a niche thanks to its Fairy-type and access to Teleport, easing Wish Pass. I don't expect it to get a lot of usage, but it defenitely has a niche.
:porygon: is bulky and easier to fit on a team than the previous two Normal-type thanks to instant recovery in Recover. It act as a great special wall and pivot thanks to Teleport.
:fletchinder: I know a lot of people like it. It has an interesting defensive typing, allowing it to wall Thwackey and Raboot. However, it is imo to weak, since it fails to 2HKO Tangela with STAB Dual Wingbeat. It also can't check Machoke or Ivysaur, because it really can't afford to lose its Boots.

Old Mon:
:seaking: is the best Scarfer. STAB Flip Turn from Seaking is such an easy move to spam. It also brings utility with Knock Off and an electric-immunity, and you can even use Scale Shot+Swords Dance. Overall a great mon now.
:pincurchin: Rising Voltage is a strong nuke. Pincurchin was already one of the best mon in the tier, but now it isn't passive anymore. However, Rising Voltage has a downside, since it makes Pinc less reliable at punishing Defogger since Rising Voltage isn't doubled against Flying-types like Togetic, Dartrix and Vullaby.
:gourgeist: is imo the best wallbreaker in the tier. Nothing can come on both CB Poltergeist and CB Power Whip, I can see defensive Gourg running no item in order to counter it. We should keep an eye on it.
:thwackey: Grassy Glide is a very powerful priority, which is appreciate in this offensive meta. You can effectively run Grass Spam with Thwackey+Choice Band Gourgeist with Grassy Glide. However Thwackey also got nerfed because of Tangela, Gourgeist, and Whirlipede.
:silvally-ice: Silvally-Ice is the only Vally able to break through Tangela and saw a lot of usage yesterday both on ladder and during room tours.
:swirlix: got buffed with Boom, making it a more reliable Web setter.
:persian: with Kadabra in the tier, it can't run an Adamant nature anymore, therefore it lost a lot of power. Also with the addition of Grassy Glide Thwackey and Dual Wingbeat Fletchinder, its Fake Out lost in interest.
 

5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Hello all. The council is holding a quick ban slate on the following: Kadabra, Pincurchin, Tangela, Thievul, and Thwackey. The deadline for our vote is this Sunday.

Although we are aware that all of these Pokemon will most likely rise in the coming tier shift, they are all highly pressing elements in the metagame that need to be addressed by council. We have decided not to vote on Silvally-Ice and Silvally-Rock because they are not worth voting on. The metagame has sufficient answers to both and PU's recent bans on Silvally-Psychic and Silvally-Grass removed half of our Silvally formes, making it much easier to prepare for them.

Feel free to post your thoughts, discussion is always welcome.
 
Firstly, Thwackey. Angry monkey boi either bops you with a ninja move stronger than a STAB Extremespeed, or annihilates you with a hammer capable of 2HKOing Cufant. This grass Pokemon one shots every water type, making almost every water type unviable, and completely shuts down wartortle’s and any belly drummer’s sweeping potential. Band Glide also one shots Persian and rockvally while 2hkoing raboot and thievul, and people who are forced to switch out have to deal with one of either knock off or u-turn, which common Thwackey walls such as Gloom, Ivysaur, Lampent, and Tangela all hate. It’s the most centralizing Pokemon in the tier currently, shutting down Pinc’s Electric Terrain handily, as well as provides support to Grassy Seed Thievul, who can’t be 2hko’d by Physical Vally in grassy terrain. In my opinion, any and every ban should start with Thwackey. Grassy Glide Thwackey is so influential that it shuts down any rain team and any setup sweeper almost entirely on its own. It forces opponents to almost always use 3 grass resist pokemon on their teams. To me, this is the simplest and easiest choice of the five to ban.

Secondly, out of every common pokemon that can handle Thwackey, only one isn’t severely threatened by Thievul (Togetic). The fact that Thwackey can just predict a switch in and U-Turn into stakeout specs Thievul is a nightmare for teambuilding. When you know your opponent is forced to bring in a pokemon, you gain a significant edge. Parting shot into either Vally form gives you endless manuverability, because the three of these combined have perfect coverage over all of zu, and all three can sweep teams almost on their own, all three are fast, and all three have momentum building moves. With Stakeout, Thievul can come in swinging at any time, and even one bad switchin can seal an opposing team’s fate.

These are my reasonings for banning both Thwackey and Thievul, the two most broken pokemon in the tier by a mile.
 
Thoughts on the ban slate (which imo covers most problems so good job)

:thwackey: - This is the biggest no brainer. Thwackey went from a mediocre scarfer to an insane revenge killer that just does way too much. BAN

:pincurchin: :thievul: - I'll group these two together because i believe one might be pushing the other to brokeness. In a hypotetical scenario where we remove Thwackey from the tier, if we follow up with a Thievul ban, Pincurchin will keep doing its thing and while i do believe it's not extremely broken it will still be centralizing since basically all our good hazard removal is extremely pressured by it, and our Ground types are really lackluster and tend to be huge momentum sinks so the Pincurchin user can usually just go to their Ground check and try again. On the other hand, if we remove Pincurchin, Unburden Thievul is no longer reliable and Thievul might be balanced in the tier. For variety's sake i'll say BAN Pincurchin and DO NOT BAN Thievul, even though both will leave anyways in a week. I'd be happy with any ban on these two though, I just don't think leaving them in the tier together once Thwackey is gone is a good idea at all.

:tangela: - I just don't see this little guy being broken right now, without hidden power it has really lackluster coverage and is easy to take advantage of. Our tier has a ton of Ice types, and the high Ivysaur and Gloom usage just does Tangela no favors. It's still something to keep an eye on though. DO NOT BAN

:kadabra: - Probably the most controversial here, Kadabra seems to be a pretty strong threat that helps offense patch up holes against some setup sweepers with its Focus Sash set, while Life Orb sets are really strong and can surprise people expecting the other set since it can easily muscle through special defense walls like Porygon and Togetic. Despite it's versatility I don't see Kadabra as an unhealthy presence on the meta right now and isn't really something I'd rush to ban. DO NOT BAN.

BAN :Thwackey: :Pincurchin:
DO NOT BAN :Kadabra: :thievul: :Tangela:
 

Tuthur

海贼王波波
is a Pre-Contributor
:thwackey: I'm in a minority to think that Thwackey's not a problem. Imo, it's even the least problematic of the Pokémon that's about to be voted on. The tier is full of Grass-resistances like Ivysaur, Tangela, Gloom, and Togetic which are excellent Pokémon. The powerful Grassy Glide priority is in my opinion beneficial to the tier, so that it doesn't become as hyper offensive as it was before the DLC with Eiscue, Silvally, and Wartortle setup spam. Without Gourgeist and GrassVally, the tier has also lost a lot of Grassy Terrain abusers, there is now only Thievul and Ivysaur left, but I will come back to the first one later.

:pincurchin: Since its arrival in the ZU, Pincurchin has had an unhealthy presence in the tier. Those thanks to two main traits, the difficulty of removing its Spikes and the presence of the Electric Terrain. Because of its Electric type, Pincurchin naturally threatens all means of hazard control in the tier except the mediocre Drillbur and Badtoy, and can easily keep Spikes and Toxic Spikes up. The electric field, in addition to helping Thievul, has greatly reduced the viability of defensive Pokémon dependent on Rest for healing (mainly Machoke, Cufant and Klang). But with the DLC, it got Rising Voltage, which gives him a superior offensive presence (although it does less damage to our Defoggers). In my opinion, Pincurchin should have been banned long before the DLC.

:thievul:
The tier's biggest problem. Each new addition in the tier made it more powerful, the defensive counterplays at Thievul once Unburden activated by the field are very limited: Togetic, Toxic Vullaby, Morgrem, Zweilous, Jigglypuff, and Scraggy (bar Togetic and Morgrem they all are niche). But czim and Ho3n have popularized Hyper Beam which destroys some of these so-called counters like Morgrem. Moreover, the Choice Specs set allows it to beat some counters like Togetic, since it can 2HKO it after SR once Knocked Off (which Thievul can do itsself). Moreover, Thievul is fast unlike other equally powerful wallbreakers like Whiscash, Machoke, Sudowoodo, or Zweilous. This means that even against offensive teams, it is overpowering. Moreover, sets with the Seeds sets are bulky enough to survive several priorities or some powerful attacks. Thievul is unmanageable offensively as well as defensively in battle, in addition to being very restrictive in terms of building. Putting Togetic in a team doesn't make it unfortunately Thievul-proof.

+2 252+ SpA Thievul Hyper Beam vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Morgrem: 294-347 (91.5 - 108%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Thievul Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 256-302 (74.6 - 88%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Thievul Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Jigglypuff: 264-311 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togetic: 171-202 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:tangela: At first I was very much in favour of a quickban, but I have the impression that the meta has got used to its presence. Poison-types like Whirlipede and Trubbish use it as a fodder to place their Spikes, on the special plane it's still manageable by Pokémon like Thievul, Ivysaur and Kadabra. And on the physical side Raboot, IceVally and Eiscue are quite efficient. In my opinion, Tangela is very strong but not strong enough to deserve a quickban. It might become unmanageable in a near future without Thievul and Knock Off Thwackey, but for now it's not so dangerous.

:kadabra: Many underestimated Kadabra, it is the second fastest Pokemonin ZU after Persian (which is often slower because played Adamant) and hits extremely hard. The Dark types are not checks since it can 2HKOs all of them with Dazzling Gleam. With only 2 attacks it threatens a wide part of the tier, but it still has 2 moves left to hinder its opponents with e.g. Knock Off to remove Togetic or Cufant's Eviolite, Encore to hinder defensive Pokémon, Psychic Terrain or Calm Mind to bypass some defensive checks like Lickitung, Porygon and Togetic, Counter to knock down an opponent Pokémon who would like to revenge kill Kadabra, or Future Sight to take advantage of an opponent's switch. Kadabra has been little explored but the number of options it has is just crazy and it after Thievul, in my opinion the most dangerous Pokémon offensively. Please Ban.

tldr:
BAN: :Pincurchin::Kadabra::Thievul:
DNB: :Tangela::Thwackey:
 
i don't know what's the deal surrounding shedinja in ZU, but i've had a few unpleasant moments when facing it. hazard control beforehand, along with a good switch and focus sash allowed it to get up SD + agility, and thankfully my ivysaur was at full health and had its item which allowed it to barely survive poltergeist.

since i'm a new player i don't want to proclaim shedinja as a great pick or whatever, especially since the mon itself seems quite gimmicky, but honestly i'm surprised at the amount of pokemon that can't do anything to it
 

AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
.
Hello all. The council is holding a quick ban slate on the following: Kadabra, Pincurchin, Tangela, Thievul, and Thwackey. The deadline for our vote is this Sunday.

Although we are aware that all of these Pokemon will most likely rise in the coming tier shift, they are all highly pressing elements in the metagame that need to be addressed by council. We have decided not to vote on Silvally-Ice and Silvally-Rock because they are not worth voting on. The metagame has sufficient answers to both and PU's recent bans on Silvally-Psychic and Silvally-Grass removed half of our Silvally formes, making it much easier to prepare for them.

Feel free to post your thoughts, discussion is always welcome.
My opinions.
:ss/kadabra: PLEASE BAN THIS THING.
:ss/pinchurchin: This thing wasnt banworthy until it got Rising Voltage, basically a thunderbolt that is 1.5x more powerful. Ban pls.
:ss/thievul: Ever since Terrain got much better, Thievul has gotten so much more broken with more terrains to abuse. Banpls
:ss/tangela: We dont have much checks to this thing, and it has good special attack as well as amazing bulk. ban pls
:ss/thwackey: Grassy Glide is SO overrated. Extreme Speed still out-prioritizes it. Also it has an easily exploitable typing. Im kinda on the fence here.
k bye
 
:ss/thwackey: Grassy Glide is SO overrated. Extreme Speed still out-prioritizes it. Also it has an easily exploitable typing. Im kinda on the fence here.
k bye
We don't have an Extreme Speed user in ZU (well, Zigzagoon but it isn't viable at all) so this is an invalid point tbh.

My own thoughts are that Thwackey and Pincurchin are the immediate things that we need a response to. They're both extremely centralising and put a huge strain on teambuilding, for reasons others have covered. Losing our primary Spikes setter will be annoying, but it's worthwhile to preserve Thievul who will be manageable without terrains, and we have other options like Maractus and Glalie to fill the role. We don't have great replacements for Thievul's role if it were to be banned, so I think it'd be unhealthy to get rid of it right now.

Tangela and Kadabra require more testing. The meta's been so centralised around Thwackey, Pincurchin and Thievul that answers to Tangela and Kadabra haven't fully developed yet. I don't believe they'll be a huge issue in a more stable meta than the one we're currently dealing with, tbh.
 
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5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
The second quick ban slate is now complete. The ZU council voted on Kadabra, Pincurchin, Tangela, Thievul, and Thwackey. A Pokemon needs a 60% ban majority in order to be banned.

:ss/thwackey: Only Thwackey has been banned. Here is the voting sheet. Tagging The Immortal or Kris to implemented, much appreciated.

:thwackey: With a unanimous ban, Thwackey's departure should not come as a surprise to anyone who played ZU as of late. The introduction of Grassy Glide drastically changed Thwackey's niche and its counterplay. Previously, it was a rather decent Choice Scarf user, but Grassy Glide expanded Thwackey's capabilities. The ability to pivot with U-turn, use Knock Off to cripple Eviolite users, OHKO offensive Pokemon such as Silvally-Rock, Persian, and Kadabra with Choice Band boosted Grassy Glide, and support itself and teammates with Grassy Terrain ultimately made it too much for the metagame to handle. While Thwackey did have counterplay in Pokemon such as Togetic, Dartrix, Ivysaur, Gloom, and Tangela, it could use Knock Off to remove their Eviolite and/or U-turn into a teammate. Moreover, Thwackey could also run a Terrain Extender, giving itself and teammates such as Thievul and Silvally-Ice turns to take advantage of Grassy Terrain and more passive recovery.

The ZU council will continue to monitor the meta in the coming tier shifts. Also, PU banned Thievul, which is huge. Looking forward to people's impressions and thoughts of the new metagame.
 
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Ok so I'm just going to drop a visual list of what we gained and lost in this massive july shift

Gained - :corsola::dusclops::farfetch:gothitelle::ludicolo::meltan::mr. mime::mr. mime-galar::palpitoad::pyukumuku::shiinotic:
Lost - :kadabra::pincurchin::raboot::seaking::silvally:-Rock :tangela::togetic::whirlipede:

So what does this mean? (imo)
1)Well for starters, stall is viable again and it might be really good, Pyukumuku and Dusclops dropping is a godsend and Shiinotic is also another defensive tool that will be interesting to build with in balanced and stall builds.
2)Rain also get a huge boost in Ludicolo and Palpitoad but it also lost Seaking, still I can already see a Ludicolo/Beartic core being interesting
3)We also got 2 new Stealth Rock setters in Palpitoad and Corsola, while we lost our 2 best Spikers in Pincurchin and Whirlipede, which means these hazards will probably see reduced play now, especially Toxic Spikes since it has even less viable setters.
4)With the loss of Silvally-Rock, Silvally-Ice has no more unpredictability, which will make it still good but probably way easier to handle and play around.
5)Loss of Kadabra was big for offense but with the Mimes we still have fast offensive psychics that also add variety in their respective secondary types, since we lacked good fast special Ice and Fairy attackers.
6)Back on Mr.Mime-Galar, we also got a new offensive spinner which gives Wartortle some competition and we also lost 2 of our best defoggers in Togetic and Silvally-Rock, which will make the spin/defog usage more balanced in the tier.
7)Loss of Pincurchin is big in which mons that relied on Restalk for recovery such as Machoke, Klang and Zweilous will now be more splashable. Also worth noting that this means we have no good offensive Electric-types in the tier (again), which makes the Seaking loss not super impactful now.
8)Loss of Raboot is interesting since now we also have almost no good fire types except for Torracat and Lampent.
9)Gothitelle is back! Duosion now has some interesting competition and Sticky Web teams get a huge buff.
10)We got DUX. I don't expect Farfetch'd to be super good but it's interesting to have a strong Flying-Type that isnt Rufflet and has incredible coverage. I can see First Impression Farfetch'd being used as a tech for Mime-Galar for example.

This is all speculation but we got a real shakeup! Building will be interesting with these new mons.
 

5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Tier shifts just happened and they are massive.

Rises: :pincurchin: :seaking: :silvally:Rock :kadabra: :raboot: :tangela: :togetic: :whirlipede:
Drops: :corsola: :dusclops: :farfetch :gothitelle: :ludicolo: :meltan: :mr_mime: :mr_mime-galar: :palpitoad: :pyukumuku: :shiinotic:

We lost a metagame staples such as Togetic, Raboot, and Silvally-Rock as well as some recently acquired toys in Kadabra, Tangela, Pincurchin, and Whirlipede. Conversely, we gained a variety of mons that should have a huge impact on the metagame. Shiinotic, Pyukumuku, Dusclops, Corsola, and Gothitelle are all bulky Pokemon that I see breathing new life into ZU defensively, for example making stall viable again. Mr. Mime and Mr. Mime Galar dropping is also major, two fast special attackers with vast movepools and sets they can run. Also, I expect to see a lot of Rapid Spin Mr. Mime-G, as ZU finally has a fast offensive entry hazard remover. Farfetch'd is another Pokemon that looks promising with its STAB Brave Bird and coverage in Close Combat and First Impression. Last but not least, Ludicolo. Ludicolo looks like a huge threat overall, known for being a menace under rain and having the right tools to break well (great STABs+Knock Off+good coverage).

The ZU council will monitor the metagame as it settles down and if anything problematic arises, we will discuss it and go from there.

Sniped by czim :blobglare:
 
Literally no ones been posting on this thread about the new drop which makes me sad :blobsad: so I decided I'll do it then.

:Corsola:: :Corsola: is a pretty nice Rocker with a really good move pool and an amazing ability in Regenerator, though not very good bulk and a trash defensive typing holds back it's potential.

:Dusclops:: Stall is back baby! :Dusclops: does basically what it always has done. Walls special or physical attackers depending on your set, clicks WoW and Toxic, and then heals with rest. It has gotten a new toy in Poltergeist to use allowing it to more easily beat Pokemon like :Mr Mime:, :Mr Mime-Galar:, :Gothitelle:, :Solrock:, and :Lunatone:. Banded sets could pick up though 70 attack is very mediocre.

:Farfetch’d: I absolutely love this mon. Banded Brave Bird + Close Combat coverage has literally no switch-ins besides :Dusclops: and :Pyukumuku:(which it has coverage for in Leaf Blade and Knock Off). First Impression is amazing for cleaning up Pokemon weak to it like :Ludicolo:, :Lunatone:, :Maractus:, and :Mr Mime-Galar:. :Heavy Duty Boots: helps immensely and SD can easily sweep teams not prepared for it.

252 Atk Choice Band Farfetch’d First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Farfetch’d First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunatone: 326-384 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Farfetch’d First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maractus: 316-374 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Farfetch’d First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime-Galar: 326-384 (135.2 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Gothitelle:: :Gothitelle: is a very good bulky attacker (Specs/Scarf + Trick) or set up mon (Cosmic Power/Calm Mind/Nasty Plot). Lack of strong Knock Off users limited to :Linoone-Galar: and :Krokorok: help a lot. It can easily sweep if the opponent doesn't have enough counter play to whatever set you are using. Very good move pool as well and Competitive can help switch in to :Silvally: Ice, :Linoone-Galar:, and :Torracat:.

:Ludicolo:: Pls ban.





Jokes aside, this Pokemon is one the most threatening sweepers ever with almost no counterplay besides Banded :Farfetch’d: and :Mr Mime-Galar:(which it beats if timid nature instead of modest). SubSeed/SubTox is also very good as it provides much utility to your team. Knock Off helps a lot when fighting bulkier Pokemon that don't appreciate getting :Leftovers: knocked off.

I was gonna post more but my fingers hurt and it's late where I live. Most likely going to update this post tomorrow.
 
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