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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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I'm gonna give ChestoRest Drifblim a try. Sounds good. Someone posted it, but I had it in mind since I saw here there's a chance Drifblim will drop.
 
Ice-eyes said:
Multi-Fire often doesn't have a way to deal with Rain Dance. They're less likely to carry bulky Water resists and more likely to have something like Quagsire, easily dispatched by HP Grass. Fast Swift Swimmers like Floatzel will 6-0 Leman's team, for example.
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Not really. Typhlosion beats most rain sweepers with HP Grass (its faster). Its really only Floatzel that gives it problems.
 
I posted this in regard to tier changes on Project NU.

Ice-eyes said:
There are a few interesting things to note.

Firstly, balance seems pretty dead. Miltank can be easily replaced with things like Gligar, but there's no like-for-like replacement of Slowking. Nothing can match its bulk on both sides of the spectrum, perfect resistances for NU and respectable attacking power. It's clear that the old Medicham/Primeape/Miltank/Slowking/Skuntank/Espeon teams aren't going to work any more - they simply can't sustain a strong enough defensive core to make use of the team type worthwhile.

Secondly, Spike-Stacking is now viable. Its previous problems basically stemmed from the lack of good Spikers and Spinblockers in NU. There weren't good enough pokes to set Spikes up, and there wasn't a bulky but offensive Ghost that could help keep them up either. Dusclops had lackluster attacking power, killing momentum, while Haunter was incredibly frail and Pursuit-weak. Now, Qwilfish is again an excellent Spikes lead and Drifblim returns to fulfil the role of a threatening but durable spinblocker.

Magmortar is now incredibly strong - Thunder Wave Slowking was the best and most splashable way to keep it in check and now that Slowie's gone it's almost impossible to switch into. Whereas Slowking could threaten with Thunder Wave, there's nothing to stop Magmortar just switching out of Grumpig or Flareon. The latter is also extremely susceptible to being 2HKOd following Spikes/SR damage if it comes in on the wrong attack. Without Slowking, fire-types in general are much harder to check, though things like Mantine can take on Zard and Typhlosion - expect to see many teams like Leman's no. 1 triple-Fire.

Ninetales benefited hugely from the changes. Its big counter, Slowking, is gone and it's going to benefit from the fact that it's a good switch-in to Magmortar. In fact, there isn't anything comparable that can switch in without too much worry but still fit into an offensive team and pose a strong attacking presence. With its excellent Special Defense it can even take Thunderbolts and Focus Blasts, setting up Nasty Plot and threatening the opponent's team. Its general lack of power is also compensated for by Spikes. Magmortar is also an excellent teammate, able to break down special walls and lure in faster revenge-killers which the opponent can hopefully then be persuaded to sacrifice.

Sub + 3 Attacks Espeon is a lot stronger now. Last metagame, I thought it was almost the ideal set, with one problem - it had serious trouble with special walls, especially Slowking, because even with LO they weren't 2HKOd. Now, with Slowking gone and Spikes support available, Espy is incredibly good. It can be especially effective in combination with Drifblim - I've used something similar with Latias and Gengar in OU. If Espeon can Sub on their switch and kill Skuntank, Drifblim has a much easier time. Similarly, if Driffy can start setting up and kill ScarfApe or the Skunk when they inevitably come out, Espeon can destroy the opponent.

There are a host of other shifts in the metagame. Things that relied on setting up on Miltank or coming in on Slowking are less viable, Electric is not quite as good a STAB as it was and many physical attackers can bulldoze through the likes of Gligar when they couldn't 2HKO Miltank.
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Thoughts?
 
Miltank can be somewhat replaced by Wish Kangaskhan or Lickilicky. I have faced both of these before, and they are absolute bitches to take down without a strong Fighting-type.

Sharpedo is going to be even more valuable now. Having a strong Aqua Jet is going to be incredibly useful, and it won't even have Miltank to sponge its physical attacks.

I've brought it up before, but a potentially hliarious gimmick is Swords Dance Occa Berry Meganium. Swords Dance up while a Fire-type is sent in, survive its attack, and OHKO with Earthquake (or Outrage/Return for Charizard).
 
Wish Kanga/Lily don't have the same walling ability though, nor do they have Thick Fat.

Sharpedo is good, but it faces competition as a wallbreaker from Magmortar and Medicham.
 
Kingler kinda outclasses Sharpedo with Agility, I use this set

Kingler @ Life Orb
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Hyper Cutter ability
Adamant nature
-Agility
-Sword Dance
-Crabhammer
-Return

After an Agility it's faster than Sharpedo, and hits hard. It still has 115 base defense, and is practically a bulky water. It is kind of Feraligatr of NU.
Some will say Crawdant outclasses this, but they set up on the same turn, Kingler is faster, set up SD, Crawdaunt only outspeeds it by 10 points, it has to run Jolly, while Kingler can still run Adamant.
For the comparison, Two DDs of Crawdaunt = Agility + SD of Kingler. Only that Crawdaunt will be a little bit faster and Kingler will strike harder. 10 points isn't much at all and without a choice scarfer your opponent is basically dead meat.
This makes Kingler my favorite NU Water type. I always liked it fron gen 2 anyway.

BTW Both also leave Sharpedo in the shadow of them.
I'm yet to try DD Whiscash, but it has a good typing. NU's offensive Swampert. Gastrodon can be very bulky with Stockpile too. It all depends on the duty you're looking for the Pokemon to fulfill.
 
You need to optimise EVs. You only need enough to beat Scarfed base 105s (Manetric), or 110s if you're really paranoid.

Sharpedo's immediate speed and power are what makes it so good.
 
Walrein is a beast. I have no idea why people don't use it outside of hail. Thick Fat makes it a great Fire-type check, and Toxic + Protect + Encore makes it able to beat almost any Pokemon 1v1.
 
Ice-eyes said:
You need to optimise EVs. You only need enough to beat Scarfed base 105s (Manetric), or 110s if you're really paranoid.

Sharpedo's immediate speed and power are what makes it so good.
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As I said, it's all about what part of the team it is, if you want a set-up sweeper, Kingler, Crawdaunt, and Whiscash could all go in that spot. If you want a good all out attacker Sharpedophile is the proper choice.
And neither Kingler or Crawdaunt can outpace Manectric with scarf, because it hits a good score of 508 with one.
Actually now you get to a good point, Jolly Kingler outpaces Scarf Espeon after Agility. A really experienced guy I know gave me the set so I went with it. Kingler is not Gyarados of NU but still packs a good punch.
(For the case, Espeon hits 523 with a Scarf, while Jolly Kingler hits 546)
 
hey guys, can i ask a question unrelated to the current discussion?
I'm building a team around slaking, and am going with a moveset of return, night slash, and superpower. Since fire punch is totally unneded in nu, would rest be a viable option in the last slot? I'm packing a cleric, probably meganium, but it pretty much sucks, so if you can suggest a better one i'm all ears. Since slaking has massive bulk and is always switching, rest could be used when i switch in on something he forces out, right?
 
I'm building a team around slaking, and am going with a moveset of return, night slash, and superpower. Since fire punch is totally unneded in nu, would rest be a viable option in the last slot? I'm packing a cleric, probably meganium, but it pretty much sucks, so if you can suggest a better one i'm all ears. Since slaking has massive bulk and is always switching, rest could be used when i switch in on something he forces out, right?
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Rest is pretty useless as a Slaking should be hitting that poke that switches in, not being a bulky hit and runner.

Sucker Punch for anything that is faster or Scarfers (actually over Night Slch really), Ice Punch for Gligar or maybe Pursuit if you want to kill any certain poke that you'd threaten.
 
Ice-eyes said:
Wish Kanga/Lily don't have the same walling ability though, nor do they have Thick Fat.
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True, but I think you're kind of underestimating their defenses, Lickilicky in particular. Lickilicky has 110/95/95 defenses against Miltank's 95/105/70 defenses. To illustrate, when both are running max HP/Def spreads, Lickilicky actually has approximately 6% more physical bulk, in addition to 38% more special bulk. (Those are very approximate numbers, I just roughly calculated it by multiplying their HP and Def stats)

Here are a few examples:

Tauros' CB Return
Miltank: 36.8-43.7%
Lickilicky: 36.8-43.4%

Sharpedo's CB Crunch
Miltank: 32.7-38.8%
Lickilicky: 32.5-38.4%

As you can see, they have basically identical physical bulk.
 
I was just sifting the stats of all the tanky NUs I could think of, and I came to the conclusion that either Lickilicky or Wailord will be the best replacements for Miltank.
 
I even saw a dragon dance latias once.

The problem is that the best way to counter rain is to carry a very lopsided team with 3 specific, stally pokemon to stall out the rain, and 3 sweepers to take out the team once rain goes down - which is not only diffucult to find dedicated walls, but thats the type of team totally countered by a 4 fires team. NU could become a rock/paper/scizzors metagame
 
Shedinja counters Rain Dance.
Fire counters Shedinja.
Rain Dance counters Fire.

We need some lizards and Spocks, or else this could get kind of dull.
 
Uberiffic said:
I even saw a dragon dance latias once.

The problem is that the best way to counter rain is to carry a very lopsided team with 3 specific, stally pokemon to stall out the rain, and 3 sweepers to take out the team once rain goes down - which is not only diffucult to find dedicated walls, but thats the type of team totally countered by a 4 fires team. NU could become a rock/paper/scizzors metagame
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Latias can't learn DD. I think you mean Latios, who was actually pretty good as a DDer in the Suspect metagame.

Anyway, for Kingler, the EVs I've been running for UU (May be different for OU), are 32 HP/252 Atk/8 Def/216 Spe with an Adamant nature, allowing you to outspeed neutral base 70s before a boost and Scarfed +ve base 95s after am Agility. 32 HP EVs allow it to take minimum damage from Life Orb.
 
Offensive SpikeStacking with Qwilfish/Drifblim, anyone? It can put some serious hurt on triple-Fire, which really hates residual damage on Typhlosion and doesn't really have a way to deal with Drifblim. It can even run Ninetales to really screw the opponent up. Meanwhile, against Rain, it can just sack through eight turns and sweep when they try to set rain again.

Miltank might have good replacements - Gligar and Lickilicky, especially - but Slowking really doesn't. Nothing has its bulk on both sides, good STAB, decent attacking power and resistances (crucially to Fire, Fighting and Psychic).
 
Actually, Gastrodon can somewhat fill the void for Slowking. Reliable recovery, decent defense on both sides... ect, sure, it's typing's worse for defense in NU, but, it's better than Quagsire at taking Special hits.

The fact Slowking 'outclasses' other NU defenders so well, and all of a sudden, without Slowking, the suspects are even more danerous, just goes to show Slowking was, in itself, a suspect/broken.

Good riddence to Miltank. The fat cow was certainly broken.

I think the teir changes have further empahsied Espeon, Medicham and Magmortar are broken.
 
Why does it emphasise the brokenness of Medicham? Cham benefited from the MilKing core, blazing through Miltank and Slowking.

Gastrodon doesn't resist Psychic or Fighting, which is unfortunate, but it is a decent special wall nonetheless.
 
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