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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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Chatot also learns encore btw.
But yeah you can always pick it off by Magneton or Primeape when Skuntank is in KO range. (It will be if it's been fucking around with Espeon and friends) They also don't care about Sucker punch.
Gotta agree that you can't take on Skuntank with those pokemon if Skuntank is near max. (Explosion OHKO's Magneton with entry hazards...)
DDWhiscash is quite the baller actually, with Adamant and Life Orb. I'll bring up the calcs later if you wish, but a +1 STAB EQ does more than youd expect, since it will be coming off 420 Attack after one Dance, and then you can use Waterfall and Double Edge for coverage in the remaining slots. It won't be sweeping full teams, but it can sufficiently weaken the opponent down enough for a second sweeper, like say KINGler or perhaps one of the fire types that plague NU atm. Whiscash's 110 HP also helps it from being revenged easily by weak priority moves.
With Adamant, Whiscash ties with Charizard etc. That means that 50% of the time, Zard, Dodrio, and anything else in that (huge) Speed tier can revenge it. Anything faster (Manectric, Espeon, Jumpluff etc.) can also revenge it. There's no real reason to use Whiscash over a fast, powerful booster like Espeon, Charizard or - dare I say it - Raichu. If I'm playing on autopilot and overestimate Whiscash, I might lose a poke, but more likely you'll weaken something at best.
Yay, let's pick Skuntank off with Primeape! It takes 41% - 48.7% from Sucker Punch. Then, you have to account for Aftermath, meaning that it's losing about 2/3 to 3/4 of its health, plus SR damage, to take out that Skuntank that's already got a kill. Now, you've locked yourself into CC, so now something nasty and dangerous like Drifblim can set up on you. Magneton is a decent option, but it HAS to be Scarfed and it's then, again, locking itself into a move (plus taking a significant 32.4% - 38.2% from Sucker Punch). In either scenario, Skuntank gets to deal big damage after it's already gotten a kill, as well as completely swinging tempo in your favour.
Yay, let's pick Skuntank off with Primeape! It takes 41% - 48.7% from Sucker Punch. Then, you have to account for Aftermath, meaning that it's losing about 2/3 to 3/4 of its health, plus SR damage, to take out that Skuntank that's already got a kill. Now, you've locked yourself into CC, so now something nasty and dangerous like Drifblim can set up on you. Magneton is a decent option, but it HAS to be Scarfed and it's then, again, locking itself into a move (plus taking a significant 32.4% - 38.2% from Sucker Punch). In either scenario, Skuntank gets to deal big damage after it's already gotten a kill, as well as completely swinging tempo in your favour.
Gosh darn, fine I'll pick it off with something like (this was harder than I thought)
Looks like I can't find something. God damnit if Aggron was still NU I'd call that stupid Skuntank setup fodder but as of now... No good. You win.. for now. But 2HKO's is pushing it. More like 1 KO + Damage on another pokemon.
You're forgetting that Whiscash isn't that frail. It won't go down so easily (at least without taking grass attacks... which are everywhere unfortunately).
To get 2/3 DD you can forego a slot to use Rest with Chesto Berry and adding some bulk.
EQ+Stone Edge covers pretty much anything, i guess...
To get 2/3 DD you can forego a slot to use Rest with Chesto Berry and adding some bulk.
EQ+Stone Edge covers pretty much anything, i guess...
Aside from the new and popular Exeggutor, grass attacks are pretty uncommon.
Edit: Ah, my bad. Don't forget about Energy ball from Ninetails too...
Okay, Grass moves are somewhat common (fire types love them) but grass types (aside from Egghead) aren't.
Hidden Power?
I just did a quick list of Pokemon that I thought were common in NU, and then counted up the attack types that they commonly used. (I counted stuff like FireBlast and FlareBlitz on Charizard as two Fire moves), and came up with a basic list of how common each type of move is. Its really rough, since I don't have actual stats now here, and I'll refine it once stats come out, and I'll weight it.
Findings (This is is in percentage of total attacking moves used)
Normal: 10.8%
Ground: 10.3%
Fire: 9.8%
Grass: 9.3%
Water: 8.8%
Ice: 8.4%
Electric: 7.8%
Fighting: 6.4%
Dark: 6.4%
Rock: 5.4%
Bug: 5.4%
Ghost: 3.5%
Psychic: 2.9%
Poison: 1.9%
Flying: 1.4%
Steel: 0.9%
Dragon: 0%
Grass moves are acctually more common than we think. This is skewed, because half those users are things like Victreebel and Shiftry, but its obviously far from 'nonexistant'.
Findings (This is is in percentage of total attacking moves used)
Normal: 10.8%
Ground: 10.3%
Fire: 9.8%
Grass: 9.3%
Water: 8.8%
Ice: 8.4%
Electric: 7.8%
Fighting: 6.4%
Dark: 6.4%
Rock: 5.4%
Bug: 5.4%
Ghost: 3.5%
Psychic: 2.9%
Poison: 1.9%
Flying: 1.4%
Steel: 0.9%
Dragon: 0%
Grass moves are acctually more common than we think. This is skewed, because half those users are things like Victreebel and Shiftry, but its obviously far from 'nonexistant'.
Good lord man, your a speed demon. I would take me at least a day before finishing that. Dragon is outright 0%. Pretty cool.
What? No one uses Dragonair Outrage? (such a decent poke...).
What would be the used Steel moves? Iron Head Mawile? Bullet Punch Hitmonchan/Medicham?
Interesting that Flyng is not so used when we have Dodrio tearing things up...
and Muk damage potential with Gunk Shot (LO Gunk Shot hurts a lot).
What would be the used Steel moves? Iron Head Mawile? Bullet Punch Hitmonchan/Medicham?
Interesting that Flyng is not so used when we have Dodrio tearing things up...
and Muk damage potential with Gunk Shot (LO Gunk Shot hurts a lot).
Remember this isn't weighted via stats. Bullet Punch Medicham is worth the same as Earthquake on Hippopotas.
I know. I'm just curious since there's so much attacks/attack typing that sees little/medium use IMO.
Seeing that 0,9% on Steel for example, i wonder: who uses Steel attacks on NU? And what are those attacks?
Or the 1,9% on Poison remembers me of Muk because i know it hits damn hard.
And so on...
Seeing that 0,9% on Steel for example, i wonder: who uses Steel attacks on NU? And what are those attacks?
Or the 1,9% on Poison remembers me of Muk because i know it hits damn hard.
And so on...
i have being trying fakechainbite(chain chomp, but gabite, hence the fake in the name) and works pretty good, max rash draco meteor kill a lot of stuff in there, EQ is great for killing magmortar and ninetales switch ins, fire blast kill grasses and then outrage or dragon claw for physical STAB to use against flying types when you already used draco meteor.
i dont see why people dont use dragon moves in NU, dragonair, gabite, shellgon and etc are all usable, maybe people think that only because they are NFE they sucks, or maybe they do sucks.....
i dont see why people dont use dragon moves in NU, dragonair, gabite, shellgon and etc are all usable, maybe people think that only because they are NFE they sucks, or maybe they do sucks.....
Steel I counted Bullet Punch on Medicham, Bullet Punch on Hitmonchan, and Flash Cannon on Magneton.
i dont see why people dont use dragon moves in NU, dragonair, gabite, shellgon and etc are all usable, maybe people think that only because they are NFE they sucks, or maybe they do sucks.....[/QUOTE]
Trust me, Nuers can't afford to think that NFEs suck. we don't have enough pokes as it is(well...) the bigest problem was that before the last metagame change we were centered around bulky offensive balance, and NFEs in general(bar Dusclops) aren't bulky enough, especially the dragons. I think Ice Eyes experimented with shelgon, though...
Trust me, Nuers can't afford to think that NFEs suck. we don't have enough pokes as it is(well...) the bigest problem was that before the last metagame change we were centered around bulky offensive balance, and NFEs in general(bar Dusclops) aren't bulky enough, especially the dragons. I think Ice Eyes experimented with shelgon, though...
I remember someone experimenting with Shelgon to great effect, and apparently Gabite is good but I haven't seen it in action.
The thing is with NFE Dragons is that their stats are too low and movepools too dry to justify using them. Really the only attraction is their typing, which really doesn't give enough advantages without the stats or the movepool to support it.
The thing is with NFE Dragons is that their stats are too low and movepools too dry to justify using them. Really the only attraction is their typing, which really doesn't give enough advantages without the stats or the movepool to support it.
The Dragons aren't bad, the only problem holding them back is lack of bulk (Or Shelgon's case, lack of Speed). I've tested all three of them in UU, and they can work reasonably well, if you give them quite a bit of support. If they can work in UU, I can't see why they can't in NU. Here's the sets I tested:
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 64 Atk/252 SpA/192 Spe
Nature: Mild
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Extremespeed/Hidden Power Ground
Pretty self-explanatory. Extremespeed is generally the most preferred move in the last spot, since it lets you revenge frailer threats like a weakened Espeon or something.
Gabite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Stone Edge
Pretty much a Garchomp-lite. Adamant lets you reach 394 Speed, while Jolly lets you tie with +1 neutral 95s.
Shelgon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Wish
-Protect
-Dragon Claw
-Roar/Toxic
Simple WishPassing set. Can actually take on quite a lot of physical attacks and Roar out the threat or something. In UU, it could take a Head Smash from Aggron and Roar it out, likewise an Earthquake from Rhyperior as well. Just steer it away from Special attacks and he'll be happy.
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 64 Atk/252 SpA/192 Spe
Nature: Mild
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Extremespeed/Hidden Power Ground
Pretty self-explanatory. Extremespeed is generally the most preferred move in the last spot, since it lets you revenge frailer threats like a weakened Espeon or something.
Gabite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Stone Edge
Pretty much a Garchomp-lite. Adamant lets you reach 394 Speed, while Jolly lets you tie with +1 neutral 95s.
Shelgon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Wish
-Protect
-Dragon Claw
-Roar/Toxic
Simple WishPassing set. Can actually take on quite a lot of physical attacks and Roar out the threat or something. In UU, it could take a Head Smash from Aggron and Roar it out, likewise an Earthquake from Rhyperior as well. Just steer it away from Special attacks and he'll be happy.
Me. :D
Shelgon and Gabite are acctually decent. Gabite has a cool dual STAB that it can run around with and Shelgon has a cool base 95 Atk, which means his Outrages hit as hard as Kingdra's. With Dragon Dance he gets to some decent speed (still slow though), but it can take an attack or two with its high defense. I didn't count those Pokemon, since I only included the what I thought were the top 52 Pokemon, and non of these were in that range, or I thought.
Scarf Gabite works really well, It's really just NU Chomp. It does reach 90 Base on attack meaning if you were putting it to a + Attack nature it would reach 306. Plus while making Dragon attacks so uncommon it can maintain to hit many other types since there aren't a lot of steel types in NU there won't be a lot of things to resist a Outrage for example.
Gabite is okay, but kinda outclassed by stuff like Dodrio and Primeape. Drio has a much higher Attack stat, is faster and has a similarly uncommon (and therefore unresisted) STAB. Primeape, meanwhile, hits harder, has the same SR resistance, and gets U-Turn. Yes, it's a nice Scarfer with good STABs, but considered in the context of competing options it's not that good.
Leman, you could try using the March stats to weight things more accurately? I see why Grass moves are so high, though - few things are using it for STAB but so many Fire- and Electric-types are using HP Grass/Energy Ball for Quagsire and coverage.
Leman, you could try using the March stats to weight things more accurately? I see why Grass moves are so high, though - few things are using it for STAB but so many Fire- and Electric-types are using HP Grass/Energy Ball for Quagsire and coverage.
I planned on just using May's when they came out. NU stats are due this month right? D:
And you have to remember that all Manectric have HP Grass, lest they lose their coveted Electric/Fire/Grass perfect neutral coverage.
I'm hoping Smogon finally gets around to testing NU (Keep it on Cap though, I can't go on the main server). Yes, they're working on UU, but they'll be doing that till the American release of Gen5. (Which, if DPPt is an indication, is when it will REALLY take off.) Advanced had a working, tested NU metagame, why can't we?
I'm hoping Smogon finally gets around to testing NU (Keep it on Cap though, I can't go on the main server). Yes, they're working on UU, but they'll be doing that till the American release of Gen5. (Which, if DPPt is an indication, is when it will REALLY take off.) Advanced had a working, tested NU metagame, why can't we?
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