NU Suspect Discussion

[jake]

Sooo I skimmed over most of this thread; I read a few posts that looked promising, but more or less everyone is debating the same shit using these enormous paragraphs that are dull and flat-out obnoxious to read. You are all saying the same things to each other, which boil down to:

- Jynx has numerous traits that allow it to dominate the tier. It is among the fastest and strongest, as well as having access to a 75% accurate move that essentially can shut down an entire Pokemon by itself, necessitating multiple checks. However, it is frail and weak to hazards, and the Pokemon that check it are "good enough" to function reasonably, or are offensive checks (Pokemon that outspeed it and threaten to OHKO) that can also perform other roles. Jynx checks a number of Pokemon in the tier, notably Water-types, so there is some fear of an enormous imbalance if Jynx leaves.
- Scolipede's primary distinction is ease of hazards. It is virtually impossible to prevent Scolipede from laying one or two hazards on any given team, regardless of build or strategy. It also has access to a 120 BP STAB move and is very fast, with a plethora of boosting moves (and Baton Pass!), but average typing and mediocre bulk mitigate the effectiveness of such sets (though they're still good). It is difficult to punish Scolipede for laying hazards, especially because it gets so many opportunities to do so.​

So, can we do away with these enormous posts where every single person explains what Jynx does well, and the purpose of each of its sets? I hate reading through suspect threads because nobody is legitimately arguing anything; it seems like they're just posting a wall of their explanations and hoping that none of the opposition cares enough to pick apart their arguments. If you've been playing NU at all, you know what these two can do - quit talking about what Jynx's checks are. Talk about things worth talking about, not just re-hashing the same information over and over. Ok? Ok.


jynx

Jynx forces every team to run multiple responses to it, for fear that if one gets slept the remainder of the team will get swept (and if your only remaining check is a Pokemon that's faster and can't switch in, you virtually lose a Pokemon every time it gets an opportunity). It's pretty shitty to have to dedicate at least a third of your team to keeping Jynx from breezing through it, especially if you're intent on running anything that is even vaguely threatened by Jynx. Let's take an example and say I want to run Exeggutor on a team, which is certainly not a bad Pokemon. It has cool set-up opportunities and great abilities, all backed by a pretty phenomenal 125 SpA. Buuut if I intend to run it, I need to run at least TWO checks to Jynx because Eggy is slower and weak to one of its STAB moves - I can't just run Metang, unless I'm using some absurd set that's specialized completely for Jynx (RestTalk Pursuit, anyone?). Even if I do use some crazy set like that, it opens me up enormously to waaaay too many other threats, like Charizard or SD Samurott, which both threaten and outspeed my poor Eggy.

Well, ok, maybe it's just an issue with Eggy - it could just be pretty meh in this new meta. NBD, there are other cool Pokemon I want to try out, too. Torterra? Nah, same thing. Sawk? Well, it's super strong in its own right, but it's still vulnerable to Jynx (though Jynx of course can't switch in), so I will still have to be wary. Surely I understand that you have to be prepared for the best that the tier has to offer, but if I dare run a single Pokemon that is slower and threatened by Jynx, there is virtually no answer except to run a deadbeat set to fully counter it, or to run two or more checks that open me up to even more dangerous threats. In fact, of "viable" Pokemon under 95 Speed, over half of them are threatened by Jynx to the point that you WILL need to run multiple responses to it. Jynx twists the concept of teambuilding, especially when you want to run one of the (many) Pokemon that don't match up well against it in the first place. Let's look:

Hide

Rotom-S
Rotom-F*
Pinsir**
Sawk
Drifblim
Braviary
Altaria
Mandibuzz
Garbodor
Victreebel***
Shiftry***
Ludicolo
Fraxure
Roselia
Alomomola
Tangela (lol its so susceptible to Jynx and Zard that it's virtually erased from usage in lieu of Alomomola)
Torterra
Cacturne***
Combusken
Exeggutor
Ursaring*
Golurk
Regirock*
Non-Iron Fist Gurdurr
Probopass*
Carracosta*

*OHKOed by Focus Blast after SR
**Despite not being weak to either STAB, Pinsir is OHKOed 2/3rds of the time after SR by Scarf Ice Beam
***I included Pokes with access to Sucker Punch because they have an inherent disadvantage against Jynx, thanks to not knowing its set / being unable to punish Jynx with Pursuit either.

That's a pretty impressive number of Pokemon that Jynx can virtually neutralize just by existing (we can say roughly 1/3rd of the whole viable tier). Even if not neutralize, it fucks over your teambuilding so badly because you need to run multiple answers to it that it makes it nearly impossible to build a sound team using any one of these genuinely good or above average Pokemon. ("I wanna run Eggy? Gotta run Metang, for Jynx. Oh, gotta run like Regirock or something for Charizard. Shit, now I'm weak to every variant of Samurott...") This is what the supporters of no-ban need to commit to arguing, not whether or not it's a frail Pokemon (we KNOW that shit already!). If you think it's not broken, tell me how it DOESN'T warp teambuilding so much that it's impossible to run a good third of the Pokemon in the tier without having to dedicate half of your team to beating one Pokemon. I understand it's a threat you have to prepare for, but when you have to run absurd lures, multiple counters / checks all to handle 1/6 Pokemon on your opponent's team, that's just frickin absurd. Oh, and that's all only if you want to run ONE Pokemon that is weak to Jynx. ~____~

post on scoli coming shortly i have to clean

 

[Raseri]

There is going to be a delay of one day before voters are chosen because of some things that happened to me irl. Don't worry though, we will announce voters tomorrow!

 

[watashi]

jynx

i think the arguments for jynx being broken have been explained pretty well; it's fast, powerful, and unpredictable. the latter really makes it hard to deal with since you can't just switch something like metang or skuntank in because you might get crippled with trick or killed by life orb ice beam. i won't go into detail on why it should be banned since like i said people have put up some good points about it. on the other hand, counterarguments mainly focus on the fact that it's frail and easily trapped. however, this doesn't really make jynx any less effective at what it does. it can still grab opportunities to switch in against certain special attackers such as seismitoad or musharna and do work from there mainly thanks to its good special bulk and ability. even if you don't manage to pivot jynx in it can still come in after a kill and cripple something effortlessly. another argument that's being thrown around is how jynx keeps certain pokemon or playstyles in check. while this is true to some extent, jynx limits teambuilding much more than the threats that it's supposed to check. there are only a handful of answers to jynx, but a lot viable of checks to carracosta, such as gurdurr, seismitoad, and tangela that are pretty much guaranteed to stop it every time. before jynx around in the tier, nobody complained about how they wanted it here to be able to check a certain pokemon.

scolipede

it sets up hazards in a metagame lacking good spinners and has the speed and typing to do it effectively. on top of that, it can hit extremely hard with a swords dance or life orb set which discourages the opponent from switching in faster pokemon in an attempt to stop it from setting up too many layers. as mentioned before, despite it being weak to stealth rocks, scolipede actually has an excellent typing for it's job as it can take advantage of the numerous poison, fighting, and grass types in the tier, making it easy to set up multiple layers of spikes or swords dance on them.

as you can probably tell i didn't read through most of the posts here or put much effort into this one because it's boring but what else can be said that hasn't been said already so who cares

also fuck charizard that shit is worse than jynx

Annoyer

 

[TheMyrMan]

Firstly I'd like to say I didn't manage to read all the replies in this thread before posting this, but I did read quite a few, there were just too many for me to have the time to read them all now, sorry.

As for Jynx, I'd say that she should be banned. As others have pointed out, she is a defining force in shaping the current NU metagame, and people are having to build teams specifically around her. That in itself isn't the big problem though. The real problem is that the Pokemon (Jynx in this case) which is having such an impact is not any fun to play against. You have one come in against anything bar a fast scarfer, and you have no real choice but to resign to having something either sleep or take a heavy hit. It really limits the scope of your team as you are forced to pack countermeasures specifically for it. It is beatable, the main problem with it is it isn't fun.

Scolipede on the other hand, may be as good as Jynx, but it doesn't ruin the fun. Scolipede is, unlike Jynx in my opinion, fun to use, as there are many different roles it can perform (Hazard lead, B-Passer, Physical Sweeper it all does quite well), and it is not horrible to go up against. A Scarfing a scolipede will usually be more of a downside than a benefit, so people don't scarf them, so you don't need a particularly fast Scarfer to revenge it, it isn't that bulky and as for the hazards, one layer of spikes isn't much damage (it doesn't get SR) and if it is setting up multiple layers then it is easy for you to start setting up for yourself (either hazards or boosts for a sweep). Toxic spikes are annoying, but anything flying or levitating doesn't care, any grounded poison type can get rid of them, any guts/toxicboost user will be ok with a free poison, and poison on your Pokemon means the opponent can't paralyze, burn or sleep them, which to many Pokemon is a far more worrying status. So in short, Scolipede is quite powerful, but I enjoy it in the tier, so I it shouldn't be banned.

Summary:

• Both are powerful threats
• Jynx is Unfun, therefore bad
• Scolipede is fun, so leave it be

Thankyou for your time

Myr (from the NU chatroom)

 

[Quite Quiet]

Touching more on what Zebraiken posted on this page, what Jynx does was summed up so well by Aladyyn in the NU showdown chat room. His entire point came down to the simple sentence of: "it's like we have a pool of pokemon that are not entirely worthless against Jynx we have to pick from, if you pick something else you're just making it harder for yourself." Yes it's possible to deal with Jynx with just one or two checks to it, but let's face it unless you keep at least one of them alive until you have a sure shot at taking out Jynx you will have troubles when it comes down to it. And if you for some reason play with something that is completely obliterated by Jynx, you're just setting yourself up for a really painful meeting those times Jynx get out.

That is what I feel is the worst thing about Jynx at this point. Due to the constant pressure of Jynx the check/counters you bring have to stay alive and healthy, there's no other way to get around it. It's the same as any other threat sure, but almost none of them have the ability to sleep whatever comes in and put you in an even worse situation than before. And if you look closer at the list of reasonable mons to use at this moment, at least half of them are naturally faster than Jynx and/or resist at least one stab move it carries. Yes, Jynx is frail but when you're practically forced to run just as frail pokemon just to check it that really doesn't hold much in the way of an argument. If you go the really bulky way then you're using mons that are already outsped by most other things and rely on their bulk to get things done/force them out. Not really by chance, that's stall and hyper offense.

Bulky offense is really the worst match up versus just Jynx by itself, not even counting her teammates. You might run a check or two, but for bulky offense your only really viable option to take Jynx out is revenge killing with priority or hoping the lovely kiss miss/Jynx can't ko the thing you have in with either of the moves. That put the player facing Jynx either having to rely on luck or again going back to the (not extremely large) pool of mons that can function against it. And if you look at offensive threats that aren't koed by Jynx and can ko back in return, outspeed Jynx, have non-water priority that one hit or any combination of the previous you're not left with a very large list for bulky offense to run with. Stall and hyper offense have the most of these, so versus Jynx they will always have the upper hand if you compare to the other playstyles.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I feel Jynx greatly discourages two entire playstyles by itself, or put you in a spot where you're discouraged to run a very large number of things that are very viable in favor of not being taken out by her. That in my opinion is what breaks her so much, when your options either force you to stall or hyper offense when you're always going to be at a disadvantage as soon as you face Jynx, regardless how much you prepare for it if you don't.

 

[Blast]

Sooo I skimmed over most of this thread; I read a few posts that looked promising, but more or less everyone is debating the same shit using these enormous paragraphs that are dull and flat-out obnoxious to read. You are all saying the same things to each other, which boil down to:

- Jynx has numerous traits that allow it to dominate the tier. It is among the fastest and strongest, as well as having access to a 75% accurate move that essentially can shut down an entire Pokemon by itself, necessitating multiple checks. However, it is frail and weak to hazards, and the Pokemon that check it are "good enough" to function reasonably, or are offensive checks (Pokemon that outspeed it and threaten to OHKO) that can also perform other roles. Jynx checks a number of Pokemon in the tier, notably Water-types, so there is some fear of an enormous imbalance if Jynx leaves.
- Scolipede's primary distinction is ease of hazards. It is virtually impossible to prevent Scolipede from laying one or two hazards on any given team, regardless of build or strategy. It also has access to a 120 BP STAB move and is very fast, with a plethora of boosting moves (and Baton Pass!), but average typing and mediocre bulk mitigate the effectiveness of such sets (though they're still good). It is difficult to punish Scolipede for laying hazards, especially because it gets so many opportunities to do so.​

So, can we do away with these enormous posts where every single person explains what Jynx does well, and the purpose of each of its sets? I hate reading through suspect threads because nobody is legitimately arguing anything; it seems like they're just posting a wall of their explanations and hoping that none of the opposition cares enough to pick apart their arguments. If you've been playing NU at all, you know what these two can do - quit talking about what Jynx's checks are. Talk about things worth talking about, not just re-hashing the same information over and over. Ok? Ok.


jynx

Jynx forces every team to run multiple responses to it, for fear that if one gets slept the remainder of the team will get swept (and if your only remaining check is a Pokemon that's faster and can't switch in, you virtually lose a Pokemon every time it gets an opportunity). It's pretty shitty to have to dedicate at least a third of your team to keeping Jynx from breezing through it, especially if you're intent on running anything that is even vaguely threatened by Jynx. Let's take an example and say I want to run Exeggutor on a team, which is certainly not a bad Pokemon. It has cool set-up opportunities and great abilities, all backed by a pretty phenomenal 125 SpA. Buuut if I intend to run it, I need to run at least TWO checks to Jynx because Eggy is slower and weak to one of its STAB moves - I can't just run Metang, unless I'm using some absurd set that's specialized completely for Jynx (RestTalk Pursuit, anyone?). Even if I do use some crazy set like that, it opens me up enormously to waaaay too many other threats, like Charizard or SD Samurott, which both threaten and outspeed my poor Eggy.

Well, ok, maybe it's just an issue with Eggy - it could just be pretty meh in this new meta. NBD, there are other cool Pokemon I want to try out, too. Torterra? Nah, same thing. Sawk? Well, it's super strong in its own right, but it's still vulnerable to Jynx (though Jynx of course can't switch in), so I will still have to be wary. Surely I understand that you have to be prepared for the best that the tier has to offer, but if I dare run a single Pokemon that is slower and threatened by Jynx, there is virtually no answer except to run a deadbeat set to fully counter it, or to run two or more checks that open me up to even more dangerous threats. In fact, of "viable" Pokemon under 95 Speed, over half of them are threatened by Jynx to the point that you WILL need to run multiple responses to it. Jynx twists the concept of teambuilding, especially when you want to run one of the (many) Pokemon that don't match up well against it in the first place. Let's look:

Hide

Rotom-S
Rotom-F*
Pinsir**
Sawk
Drifblim
Braviary
Altaria
Mandibuzz
Garbodor
Victreebel***
Shiftry***
Ludicolo
Fraxure
Roselia
Alomomola
Tangela (lol its so susceptible to Jynx and Zard that it's virtually erased from usage in lieu of Alomomola)
Torterra
Cacturne***
Combusken
Exeggutor
Ursaring*
Golurk
Regirock*
Non-Iron Fist Gurdurr
Probopass*
Carracosta*

*OHKOed by Focus Blast after SR
**Despite not being weak to either STAB, Pinsir is OHKOed 2/3rds of the time after SR by Scarf Ice Beam
***I included Pokes with access to Sucker Punch because they have an inherent disadvantage against Jynx, thanks to not knowing its set / being unable to punish Jynx with Pursuit either.

That's a pretty impressive number of Pokemon that Jynx can virtually neutralize just by existing (we can say roughly 1/3rd of the whole viable tier). Even if not neutralize, it fucks over your teambuilding so badly because you need to run multiple answers to it that it makes it nearly impossible to build a sound team using any one of these genuinely good or above average Pokemon. ("I wanna run Eggy? Gotta run Metang, for Jynx. Oh, gotta run like Regirock or something for Charizard. Shit, now I'm weak to every variant of Samurott...") This is what the supporters of no-ban need to commit to arguing, not whether or not it's a frail Pokemon (we KNOW that shit already!). If you think it's not broken, tell me how it DOESN'T warp teambuilding so much that it's impossible to run a good third of the Pokemon in the tier without having to dedicate half of your team to beating one Pokemon. I understand it's a threat you have to prepare for, but when you have to run absurd lures, multiple counters / checks all to handle 1/6 Pokemon on your opponent's team, that's just frickin absurd. Oh, and that's all only if you want to run ONE Pokemon that is weak to Jynx. ~____~

post on scoli coming shortly i have to clean

Well, you're absolutely right that if you're building a team around a Jynx-weak mon you're pretty much forced to run multiple checks to it for obvious reasons. But how exactly is that different from literally any other powerful threat in the meta? Taking your example of Eggy, it's weak to a lot more than just Jynx, and obviously to build successfully around it you're gonna have to cover everything. More often than not, that requires having multiple checks to certain Pokémon, Jynx being no exception. There's plenty of stuff that forces out Eggy--Charizard, Haunter, Braviary, Samurott, etc etc and frankly you can't just slap one single check to these mons either and consider them covered. Now I know a good majority of threats don't have sleep moves like Jynx but that doesn't mean you have to prepare for them any less, simply because literally anything can and will steamroll you if you're overdependent on a singular check to handle it. All of this applies to Jynx too, so saying you're being forced to run "multiple" checks to it does not prove it's broken or even restricting (at least not excessively). And as has been covered in this thread it's not really even ~that~ hard to check Jynx, since you even said yourself that a lot of stuff can just naturally check it without being "dedicated" checks. Now of course some are more reliable than others, but that doesn't change the fact checks absolutely exist and are not nearly as rare as some people are making them out to be.

Also you seem to be implying that mons like Eggy have been made completely unviable or something simply because Jynx exists in the tier, which is flat-out not true. Very, very few Pokémon even lost significant viability after it dropped (admittedly though there are a few exceptions like Tangela and Altaria), a lot became ~less~ viable but they certainly didn't drop into oblivion. In fact, Eggy in particular is still absolutely viable which means that it's still completely possible to use it and not get fucked by Jynx. Yeah you have to prepare for it but you rarely if ever have to "dedicate" more than maybe one teamslot solely for checking Jynx, because it's not that hard to check in the first place and many of the mons that happen to check it aren't particularly hard to fit on teams either.

 

[jake]

I acknowledged that you have to prepare for dominant threats. I am saying that Jynx in particular warps teambuilding moreso than any other threat, because you CANNOT run just a single check unless you want to have it shit on by LK or whatever else. And yes, I'm aware that Exeggutor is pressured by a lot of other threats, are are a number of the Pokemon I've listed; what I am saying is that Jynx is different from Charizard, Haunter, Braviary, Samurott, etc etc. You really glossed over what makes Jynx different: sleep. We would not be having this conversation about Jynx if it did not have the ability to shut down any one response with a single move, and this is what makes it different from other top dogs. Please don't mistake me for being stupid or think that I'm ignoring the fact that yes, you do need to run answers to top threats. Jynx is a different monster than the rest of these guys.

I'm saying that the restriction and pressures it creates on teambuilding are retarded. Your defensive answers (Metang, etc) to Jynx are going to get slept, and your offensive answers (Charizard, etc) cannot switch in. You run two defensive answers? One is going to get slept or Tricked, and running two of them likely opens big holes in your team because defensive answers to Jynx are often weak to similar threats, like Samurott. You run two offensive answers? Good luck trying to actually get them in, because more than likely both are 2HKOed on switch-in. With Jynx, it is incredibly hard to use any Pokemon that is on that list because it means you have to structure your team around beating it, or else it will get too many opportunities and put you at a really big disadvantage.

When I have to legitimately consider sacking the Pokemon I built the team around so I have a /shot/ at dealing with Jynx basically every time it comes out... doesn't something about that scream "this sucks" to you? If he brings out Jynx on Exeggutor, sleeps my Metang switch-in, then subs as I switch in my Charizard / Skuntank / whatever other response, what the fuck can I do at that point? He has every advantage, just because Jynx pressures ONE out of three Pokemon - even if he mispredicts and sleeps like my Eggy, he still has all of the advantage. And dare I run more than a single Pokemon weak to Jynx... even if I dare to use one of those minimum two counters / checks to beat something else and let it get weakened even slightly, then I lose to Jynx anyway because I give it momentum because I'm using a SINGLE Pokemon that it shits on.

All of this applies to Jynx too, so saying you're being forced to run "multiple" checks to it does not prove it's broken or even restricting (at least not excessively). And as has been covered in this thread it's not really even ~that~ hard to check Jynx, since you even said yourself that a lot of stuff can just naturally check it without being "dedicated" checks. Now of course some are more reliable than others, but that doesn't change the fact checks absolutely exist and are not nearly as rare as some people are making them out to be.

Also you seem to be implying that mons like Eggy have been made completely unviable or something simply because Jynx exists in the tier, which is flat-out not true. Very, very few Pokémon even lost significant viability after it dropped (admittedly though there are a few exceptions like Tangela and Altaria), a lot became ~less~ viable but they certainly didn't drop into oblivion. In fact, Eggy in particular is still absolutely viable which means that it's still completely possible to use it and not get fucked by Jynx. Yeah you have to prepare for it but you rarely if ever have to "dedicate" more than maybe one teamslot solely for checking Jynx, because it's not that hard to check in the first place and many of the mons that happen to check it aren't particularly hard to fit on teams either.

Sure, Jynx has its checks - it's by no means a flawless Pokemon. If it was, it would have been out of here a long fucking time ago. You keep saying that it's not that hard to beat it, that it's not rare or difficult to find something that beats it. This is not my argument. My argument is not "JYNX SHITS ON ALL MY TEAMS AND I DON'T WANT TO RUN SHIT METANG", because if I have to use a Pokemon to deal with a top threat then I absolutely will. My argument is that Jynx impairs teams that want to use a Pokemon it even remotely threatens (almost 30 VIABLE Pokemon), to the point that it is horrible to attempt to do so. It makes it virtually impossible to build around something like Exeggutor because of the way I have to structure my team to handle it and the plethora of other threats in NU. Sure, I can still try to build around it, but when all it takes for my opponent to pressure and beat 3 or 4 of my Pokemon is just Jynx, it's not worth running that third of the tier that gets shit on by Jynx.

Also, I said it's a list of viable Pokemon - what about that strikes you as implying that they're unviable? They're not impossible to run, Jynx just makes it shitty to try to do so. You have to warp your teambuilding to it. You're approaching my argument as "you can beat Jynx, it's not hard" when I'm perfectly aware of its flaws - it's just nearly impossible to use a third of the NU tier (you can't even use ONE of these Pokemon) because Jynx pressures all of them and then has the tools to put at least one counter out of commission and punch a hole in another, if not to just leave and come back again on your original Pokemon that you tried to save.

Lastly, I was going through your older posts and I saw this:

Pertaining to Jynx itself, you have to carry 2+ checks for almost everything, and with the plenty of things that can either outspeed it or hit it with priority or w/e it's really not hard at all to check Jynx (it's just really hard to counter). And besides, just because this thing lacks true counters doesn't necessarily make it broken. Samurott and Eelektross don't have any hard counters either, and I'd hardly consider either broken. I get that Jynx is different because it has Lovely Kiss to semi-guarantee a kill, but sleep is something that people should be prepared to deal with anyway, as hard as it tends to be. If we ban Jynx just because of Lovely Kiss then by this logic every sleep inducer should be banned because they technically "can't be countered" either. (Also js but Jynx isn't even the fastest sleep inducer in the tier, that's Jumpluff, but seriously don't quote me on that since I'm just using it for reference.)

1. You just doubled back on what you said. You need two answers for everything, but you need only one for Jynx? OK I get you will probably lean on your use of "dedicated" to back out of this one, but if you run a single dedicated counter alongside one of those Pokemon that are weak to Jynx and then fill the rest of your team with Pokemon that only have neutral matchups, your "dedicated" counter is going to get slept and then it can dismantle your team using your singular weak point, be it Torterra or Eggy or whatever.
2. Samurott and Eelektross don't have the speed that Jynx has, the switch-in opportunities, the ability to pressure so many Pokemon, nor Lovely Kiss. It's the combination of all traits and the stupid pressure it puts on teambuilding.
3. Don't marginalize Lovely Kiss. You keep doing it, like sleep means nothing or that you should prepare to be 5-6 down because Jynx is going to have the ability to sleep your Pokemon. Don't shove it in a closet by assuming the argument is "sleep is broken", and then trying to trash it by saying "if we ban Jynx because of Lovely Kiss, we should ban Jumpluff and every other sleep inducer" because that is a horrible argument and I think you know it. Jynx's sleep is different because it has the power and speed and tools to take advantage of those free turns. Jumpluff is piss-poor weak, Vileplume is very slow and gets swarmed by the vast majority of the tier, etc. Jynx can use it to shut down one of your answers to it, and if you don't have another on-hand or able to switch in or at full HP, Jynx is going to wreak havoc.


tl;dr: You missed the point and ignored what sets Jynx apart from the rest. I'm not saying it's impossible to handle, because that's pretty well documented at this point thanks to the other three pages telling me that Metang wins. I'm saying that Jynx alone forces a metagame where you cannot run 1/3rd of our tier without having to structure your team around beating it because it creates so many opportunities for itself thanks to its speed, power, and Lovely Kiss. It has too many advantages in one package, and that's stupid.

 

[jake]

Sooo I was having trouble thinking about what I should say about Scolipede, so I went looking through the thread looking for non-ban arguments...

Scolipede on the other hand, may be as good as Jynx, but it doesn't ruin the fun. Scolipede is, unlike Jynx in my opinion, fun to use, as there are many different roles it can perform (Hazard lead, B-Passer, Physical Sweeper it all does quite well), and it is not horrible to go up against. A Scarfing a scolipede will usually be more of a downside than a benefit, so people don't scarf them, so you don't need a particularly fast Scarfer to revenge it, it isn't that bulky and as for the hazards, one layer of spikes isn't much damage (it doesn't get SR) and if it is setting up multiple layers then it is easy for you to start setting up for yourself (either hazards or boosts for a sweep). Toxic spikes are annoying, but anything flying or levitating doesn't care, any grounded poison type can get rid of them, any guts/toxicboost user will be ok with a free poison, and poison on your Pokemon means the opponent can't paralyze, burn or sleep them, which to many Pokemon is a far more worrying status. So in short, Scolipede is quite powerful, but I enjoy it in the tier, so I it shouldn't be banned.

• Scolipede is fun, so leave it be

...with the exception of "Scolipede is fun", are there any actual arguments to be made for keeping Scolipede in the tier? I know the focus has largely been on Jynx, but everyone seems content to agree that Scolipede's ease of spikes + general susceptibility of the metagame to its hazards is enough to push for ban. I am pro-ban for many reasons clearly stated already, but it seems like nobody thinks it should be here anyway, so...

(Sorry for double post, didn't seem proper to try to fit this into the post above.)

 

[Brawlfest]

Sooo I was having trouble thinking about what I should say about Scolipede, so I went looking through the thread looking for non-ban arguments...


...with the exception of "Scolipede is fun", are there any actual arguments to be made for keeping Scolipede in the tier? I know the focus has largely been on Jynx, but everyone seems content to agree that Scolipede's ease of spikes + general susceptibility of the metagame to its hazards is enough to push for ban. I am pro-ban for many reasons clearly stated already, but it seems like nobody thinks it should be here anyway, so...

(Sorry for double post, didn't seem proper to try to fit this into the post above.)

The thing is, Scolipede is a one (two) trick pony, and I think most of us agree that it does it's job excessively well, with little to nothing being able to stop it before it complete's its mission, whether it be passing boosts to a teammate or laying down spikes. That imo is why theres a general consensus of we dun like it so ban pl0x.

Jynx on the other hand is more of a ban / not ban, where people are on borderlines due to it being such a lop-sided mon. On the one hand, it warps teambuilding, can 6-0 many teams with ease, and can reliably (lol not in my experience) sleep opponents. On the other, it is very difficult to switch in, and requires quite a bit of team support to use 100% successfully.

 

[noobcubed]

The thing is, Scolipede is a one (two) trick pony, and I think most of us agree that it does it's job excessively well, with little to nothing being able to stop it before it complete's its mission, whether it be passing boosts to a teammate or laying down spikes

Tbh it's just the Spikes, Scolipede's Baton Passing abilities aren't broken in any way because you can generally revenge-kill whatever it passes to, or just nail it on the switch. At least before it got Speed Boost you could. Volbeat is a more reliable Baton Passer, and is roughly a million miles from being broken.

 

[Lyren]

Since Zebraiken had a bit of a call to action to commit the argument against Jynx to it's server impact on the limit of teambuilding, I'd like to add my thoughts on it.

As previously mentioned, you essentially have to run two or more checks for Jynx if you don't want to just be demolished by her. That being said, her offensive ability insures that at least one of these two checks has to have considerable bulk and probably resist. As such many team structures are built with their special wall fully prepared and dedicated to beating Jynx. Since Jynx's coverage makes her hard to wall only a very small group of pokes (metang, miltank, probopass, grumpig, ect) actually can do the job and end up on a huge percentage of teams, making the entire meta have a tendency to lean towards similar defensive core typings. Consequently, as the rest of the team falls in place around these checks, some offensive pokes are indirectly discouraged by jynx, as they no longer have necessary typing to fulfill teams. Samurott and Exeggutor are two such examples of amazing pokes that have seen far less usage of late partially as result of teams attempting to cover a combination of Jynx, Sawk, and Charizard. Further pokemon like Leavanny, who have quite a bit of potential to do work, are made completely worthless. So many people run walls for Jynx like Metang and thick fat users, there is almost no reason not to use a poke with fighting/ground coverage on the physical side.

I understand that the point I'm trying to make is pretty obtuse since teambuilding logic as a whole is a very complex process that can't be very easily summarized, but I hope that at least some of you can empathize with me in how much Jynx limits the combination of viable pokes to create teams with. I know personally I find myself running Skuntank far more often than I would like to.

I'd also like everyone to take a step back for a moment and just look at while severally limiting the number of viable pokes is harmful to the tier. As the name NeverUsed implies, it's home to all of the pokes that are too difficult to use in any of the other metas. It just seems wrong from an ethical standpoint to leave in a single poke that instantly eliminates any chance for huge proportional of the tier to ever have any use in any meta. I'm not saying that we should just throw out all the good things so that only the really shit pokemon remain, but to some degree I think it's only fair to try and give a chance to as many pokes in the tier as possible.

 

[ebeast]

Like Zeb I skimmed over a few of these posts but I just want to get my opinion out there, regardless if it has been said before. The louder the voice the more it'll get noticed and I want it to get noticed, for I feel it would improve the metagame. I'll obviously be focusing on the main two Pokemon at hand, Jynx and Scolipede, but I'll mention another one towards the end, and I'll elaborate on that.

Jynx

Fast, strong, and has the ability to run a ton of sets all of which are equally good and deadly. Scarf has its way with offense and Life Orb is devastating for slower teams to take on. There are other good sets such as Focus Sash and all its variations as well as sets that use Substitute, which further adds to its unpredictability. Lovely Kiss is what makes Jynx such an annoyance as it makes what was already a fast and strong Special Attacker with a lack of good counters into something that forces you to run 2+ checks/counters to even stand a chance. With Black/White Sleep mechanics this problem becomes even worse, especially in this current metagame that is very offensive and littered with Spikes, as trying to burn Sleep turns just gives your opponent the chance to regain the offensive momentum.

Like Annoyer, FLCL, and Zeb both said outside of Sleep something that Jynx does is restrict teambuilding. Forcing you to use Pokemon like Metang, SpD Piloswine, Lum Skuntank, SpD Ludicolo or the like to take it on. The thing is that a single Pokemon is not enough to stop Jynx due to Lovely Kiss. While the same could technically be said about every Pokemon with sleeping moves such as Exeggutor and its Sleep Powder, none of them have that excellent Base 95 Speed or amazing coverage that Jynx does. Like Zeb said a few posts above me, your defensive checks will just get put to Sleep and your offensive ones cannot switch in for their lives. Even if you do pack multiple counters or checks to Jynx, when she finally comes in (and she WILL come in eventually as she has many chances to with her Speed and coverage that hits most of the tier) you're put in a predicament where the Jynx user has the advantage. Whether they decide to Sleep something or attack on the switch to a potential Sleep fodder, they'll either get a KO or put something to Sleep. Even if you still have another Jynx counter waiting in the back, your opponent just removed a Pokemon from the game for practically no cost.

Scolipede

Scolipede in a nutshell is easy (Toxic) Spikes and/or a dangerous attacker. Unlike Roselia and Garbodor who have to find an opportunity to Spike against the things they can check, Scolipede can just mindless Spikes up against most things due to its Base 112 Speed. Rapid Spinning is also not easy to do when the only viable Rapid Spinners are Wartortle and to some extent Torkoal, who are more less burdens outside of their abilities to Rapid Spin. The offensive sets are just as powerful with SubSalac SD or simply Life Orb with Spikes as a backup make it risky to try to switch in faster mons in to stop it from Spiking. It shifts the metagame to where everything is just mindless Spikes HO and anything else just can't keep up. The Pokemon that could wall Scolipede such as Alomomola and Misdreavus are also easy fodder for stacking of all sorts of hazards. It can stack hazards easily, it's powerful and dangerous, and has shifted the Speed tiers of NU (along with Jynx) in a way that I think is bad for the tier.

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Raseri told me not to talk about Zard much so I won't go off, but I definitely think that it's also a problem Pokemon in NU. I also disagree with everyone that says that Charizard will be more manageable with Jynx and Scolipede gone. Charizard was already fast in the current metagame and with Scolipede gone and some fast Pokemon such as Serperior most likely losing popularity, Charizard will be king in a slower format. Choice Specs and Swords Dance are the main sets that make Charizard a problem as they are both incredibly powerful and each beat each other's "counters". Choice Specs especially so as Charizard is free to spam Fire Blast with little to no retribution. Slower teams (which are supposed to be viable again with Jynx and Scolipede gone) get demolished by Specs and SD sets and trust me, crap like Altaria and Flareon will not be more viable post-jynx/pede. They'll be just as bad as they were pre-jynx/pede as the tier was dominated by Musharna/Gurdurr/Skunk teams and Water-types such as Samurott and Ludicolo. Charizard was still "undiscovered" back then but I would expect the amount of Samurott and Carracosta to increase to check Charizard(Simply check and not counter as they are both owned by Specs hits, even Fire Blast 9.9), making Flareon and Altaria just as bad as always.

 

[DTC]

I would like to thank you all for the nice suspect discussion.

Voters have been chosen! We decided to extend the number of voters from 5 to 9 because of all of the worthy candidates.

The voters are:

• Annoyer
• βasedvictory
• Django
• ebeast
• FLCL
• Fuzznip
• Raseri
• Treecko
• Zebraiken

Voting Thread