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Those arguments fail to take into account the new metagame changes. Most Psychic types aside from Jynx (I concede this can be a positive matchup for Wormadam-T provided she doesn't stay asleep too long against Nasty Plots) have fallen in usage due to Jynx herself (and partly Scolipede), while Wormdam-T cannot reliably beat Heal Bell Musharna one-on-one. Grass-types have dwindled in usage due to Scolipede, again depriving Trashmadam of things she can wall. The majority of more relevant attacking types which I have mentioned aren't resisted by Wormadam-T (I call this Armaldo syndrome, but a lesser degree :P). The fact that Fire has become a relevant attacking type compared to previous NU rounds is nothing but bad news for Wormadam-T as well. There isn't really much point to using Wormadam-T at this point: you can use a Hypno or Grumpig to combat Jynx if you're that worried, and they can actually do stuff, namely Wish or Heal Bell respectively, other than setting up SR and Toxicing whatever you can to even contribute should you not face Jynx (hell anything with SR can do that and have usable STAB! Most have healing, priority or even hit hard).
Maybe so, but as you actually said yourself it's a positive match-up against jynx for the wormadam-trash. Good agrument for me I suppose? As it is most Jynx don't even use lovely kiss (I don't on all three of my teams).
So fire is a more relevant type... what uses that? Weezing? So he's getting more usage now, but it till doesn't matter as much.
Also it walls non-earthquake (why would you use earthquake on him...) scolipede, which is only good news.
Also it walls Primeape, especially with it's 4x resistance to the move it uses most of the time, U-turn.
So fire is a more relevant type... what uses that? Weezing? So he's getting more usage now, but it till doesn't matter as much.
Also it walls non-earthquake (why would you use earthquake on him...) scolipede, which is only good news.
Also it walls Primeape, especially with it's 4x resistance to the move it uses most of the time, U-turn.
The point is Wormadam-T can do little to defend herself. While Wormadam-T can work with a spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Impish for mixed bulk, the fact that she doesn't resist many physical attacks in Ground, Rock, Fighting and Flying greatly reduces her ability to take hits. This is not a Forretress we're talking about: Trashmadam does very little to support the team and lack the stats for the job, while the threats she faces are every bit as potent, both offensively and defensively, as the threats in OU are to Forretress.
What uses Fire, you ask? How about Zebstrika plus every single Fire-type bar Heatmor and Monferno (lol) or arguably Camerupt (?) that has gained more viability with the drops? Or maybe Chlorophyll sweepers due to the potential of sun? I've seen Serperior, one of the few remaining Grass-types to see use, carry Hidden Power Fire as well, discounting other pokemon that switch to Hidden Power Fire for the new drops.
If Alomomola and Munchlax were considered Taunt bait, you've seen nothing yet. Trashmadam cannot do a thing to virtually every viable Taunt user I can think of (there's not a whole lot, but my point still stands). Even Taunt Serperior can start setting up CMs in the face of Signal Beam. That's how weak Trash madam is. Hell, obscure shit like Taunt Emolga walls you back. I should say no more about this.
It's so weak that Scolipede has zero qualms about going for 3 layers of Spikes and still stand at the end of it, or grab the opportunity it has been waiting for in Swords Dance and run through your team, Wormadam-T included.
I said that Wormadam-T has a good matchup against Jynx. That's pretty much it; it has a mediocre or poor mathcup against everything else, and that's if they are without Taunt, Sub + recovery/stat boost, or a Fire move. Even pokes that go mono-Poison can still status you or setup hazards, while you can't do jack about it. It can't beat RestTalk Regice for god's sake, as it will lose eventually to Thunderbolts or god forbid Charge Beams while Gyro Ball won't do much off uninvested base 69 against max HP and 50 base Speed.
If you can't beat threats weak to your STAB even if you "wall" them, I can't see it in anything but E-Rank. There is no point in using Wormadam-T over something that can take on Jynx while doing something else for the team besides SR andToxic<-(doesn't count, as everything knows it). Bottom line, if Wormadam-T cannot Toxic the enemy (without them recovering) as well as hit the threat foe over 50% (how likely is this? :/), she is letting them do whatever they want, even if she resists them.
Alright, let me put it this way: the only reason Jynx loses to Trashmadam is because of her fraility, susceptibility to Trashmadam's strongest move, and she has no reason to be carrying a Fire move. I'd like you to find another pokemon with these traits that are actually relevant in this metagame (if you can beat Jynx, you can do well against Gardevoir too, and even then Garde can Trick Scarf you and Focus Blast you to death while not dying to Scarf Gyro Ball and Signal Beam with the stolen Lefties and high special bulk).
What uses Fire, you ask? How about Zebstrika plus every single Fire-type bar Heatmor and Monferno (lol) or arguably Camerupt (?) that has gained more viability with the drops? Or maybe Chlorophyll sweepers due to the potential of sun? I've seen Serperior, one of the few remaining Grass-types to see use, carry Hidden Power Fire as well, discounting other pokemon that switch to Hidden Power Fire for the new drops.
If Alomomola and Munchlax were considered Taunt bait, you've seen nothing yet. Trashmadam cannot do a thing to virtually every viable Taunt user I can think of (there's not a whole lot, but my point still stands). Even Taunt Serperior can start setting up CMs in the face of Signal Beam. That's how weak Trash madam is. Hell, obscure shit like Taunt Emolga walls you back. I should say no more about this.
It's so weak that Scolipede has zero qualms about going for 3 layers of Spikes and still stand at the end of it, or grab the opportunity it has been waiting for in Swords Dance and run through your team, Wormadam-T included.
I said that Wormadam-T has a good matchup against Jynx. That's pretty much it; it has a mediocre or poor mathcup against everything else, and that's if they are without Taunt, Sub + recovery/stat boost, or a Fire move. Even pokes that go mono-Poison can still status you or setup hazards, while you can't do jack about it. It can't beat RestTalk Regice for god's sake, as it will lose eventually to Thunderbolts or god forbid Charge Beams while Gyro Ball won't do much off uninvested base 69 against max HP and 50 base Speed.
If you can't beat threats weak to your STAB even if you "wall" them, I can't see it in anything but E-Rank. There is no point in using Wormadam-T over something that can take on Jynx while doing something else for the team besides SR and
Alright, let me put it this way: the only reason Jynx loses to Trashmadam is because of her fraility, susceptibility to Trashmadam's strongest move, and she has no reason to be carrying a Fire move. I'd like you to find another pokemon with these traits that are actually relevant in this metagame (if you can beat Jynx, you can do well against Gardevoir too, and even then Garde can Trick Scarf you and Focus Blast you to death while not dying to Scarf Gyro Ball and Signal Beam with the stolen Lefties and high special bulk).
Wow, there are people arguing for and supporting Wormadam-T? What Punchroom says is true: Wormadam-T is slow, weak, and if it CAN wall something, the best it can do is fire off a pitifully weak Gyro Ball or Toxic it (Steel is a terrible attacking type on its own, so that's pretty worthless, and what halfway decent team doesn't carry Heal Bell support?). And those two options only occur if the opponent decides NOT to set up a sub, Taunt, or fire off any Fire-Type attack or any reasonably powerful neutral attack towards Wormadam-T. What can Wormadam-T that no other Stealth Rocker can? The best the guy can do is set up rocks, Toxic, and die. Why have that dead weight on your team, all to counter Jynx? Especially when you can run a mon like Grumpig who resists both of Jynx'a STABs (thanks to Thick Fat) and can do damage in return with Signal Beam, and can support its team with Heal Bell and Thunder Wave? It just makes no sense to me. It doesn't beat anything but Jynx; every other matchup is either just barely decent or absolutely horrible: it can't even wall Grass-Types anymore: I've seen more Serperiors run HP Fire over any HP nowadays. It can't even do something that it should do, given its typing. Mons such as Weezing and Vileplume check Grass-Types much better than Wormadam-T does and can (must I say it again?) do something in return.
As a Jynx counter, Wormadam-T is outclassed, as a Stealth Rock setter, Wormadam-T is outclassed. As a check to Grass-Types, Wormadam-T is outclassed. I see no reason to use it, therefore I nominate it for E Rank.
Also, what carries a Fire-Type move? Weren't we all talking about Zebstrika being a new threat in the meta just a few pages ago? I have yet to see a Zebstrika that HASN'T ran a Fire-Type move. Not to mention, as I said before, the Grass-Types that carry HP Fire. Saying that Fire-Type moves are uncommon is ludicrous. Plenty of mons use them, at least enough to make Wormadam-T even more of a liability to have on a team.
That's just my two cents, sorry for the long post, and if I come off as rude at all, I apologize, since that wasn't the intention.
As a Jynx counter, Wormadam-T is outclassed, as a Stealth Rock setter, Wormadam-T is outclassed. As a check to Grass-Types, Wormadam-T is outclassed. I see no reason to use it, therefore I nominate it for E Rank.
Also, what carries a Fire-Type move? Weren't we all talking about Zebstrika being a new threat in the meta just a few pages ago? I have yet to see a Zebstrika that HASN'T ran a Fire-Type move. Not to mention, as I said before, the Grass-Types that carry HP Fire. Saying that Fire-Type moves are uncommon is ludicrous. Plenty of mons use them, at least enough to make Wormadam-T even more of a liability to have on a team.
That's just my two cents, sorry for the long post, and if I come off as rude at all, I apologize, since that wasn't the intention.
^This. Good man.
Alright, I get some of the gist of it: you want a Stealth Rocker that isn't obliterated by Jynx....have you considered Metang? It can finish off weakened Jynx with Bullet Punch, resist Flying and Rock, and best of all, actually fight back with STAB Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt off max 75 base Attack. All this with max HP and Eviolite makes Metang statistically superior to Trashmadam as well.
Alright, I get some of the gist of it: you want a Stealth Rocker that isn't obliterated by Jynx....have you considered Metang? It can finish off weakened Jynx with Bullet Punch, resist Flying and Rock, and best of all, actually fight back with STAB Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt off max 75 base Attack. All this with max HP and Eviolite makes Metang statistically superior to Trashmadam as well.
I think Wormy fits well in D-Rank
Description of D-Rank:
Wormy has 2 jobs it can do - Countering Jynx (after something else is asleep) and setting up Rock. Outside of that, it really doesn't have a use, and even then it's outclassed in it's job by Metang (although Wormy can deal with Scolipede as well, although that means Scoli gets to set up spikes all over your face). Interesting to note is that Wormy is the only mon that deals with Scolipede, Jynx, Grass-types, AND set-up Rocks at the same time. However, Wormy isn't all that bulky tbh, it's gets carries by it's typing.
D-Rank seems perfect to me.
Description of D-Rank:
Wormy has 2 jobs it can do - Countering Jynx (after something else is asleep) and setting up Rock. Outside of that, it really doesn't have a use, and even then it's outclassed in it's job by Metang (although Wormy can deal with Scolipede as well, although that means Scoli gets to set up spikes all over your face). Interesting to note is that Wormy is the only mon that deals with Scolipede, Jynx, Grass-types, AND set-up Rocks at the same time. However, Wormy isn't all that bulky tbh, it's gets carries by it's typing.
D-Rank seems perfect to me.
/late
Foul play is a rather miserable move imo since missy walls physical attackers and they will therefore be switching out to something that will probably have a terrible attack stat and they might even run 0 IV because of liepard (like weezing for example), it can also leave you weak to gurdurr since defensive missy can't afford to run 2 attacking moves most of the time. The speed difference helps it outspeed rampardos and euh rampardos which I haven't even seen in over 50 games in this meta. Other things it will outspeed are stuff like torterra which weezing completely walls and defensive mons which I agree can be shut down by taunt easily, but then again, missy will fear coming in on certan defensive mons while weezing usualy won't thanks to it's toxic immunity so there's a good point on both sides. Taunting an opponent is also additional prediction which may seem dumb since most defensive mons will do pitiful damage to missy with their attacking moves, but a poor 15% can make a huge difference when you have pain split as only form of recovery. Shutting down stealth rocks is cool too, but burning a rock setter can be just as good depending on your team.
In the end, Sure defensive missy has a couple of advantages over weezing, but I think the fact weezing just lasts much longer is enough to make it A rank in this meta where once you lose missy or weezing (on a team where you use them ofc), it's just a matter of time before a plethora of physical attackers put too much offensive pressure and crush everything remaining of your team. Both of these walls are constantly switching in and out and the fact weezing can get that little extra recovery through black sludge will reduce the impact of stealth rock and u-turn damage on the long run. Sure missy walls stuff like sawk, but it'll do so once and since the recovery is so bad, you often won't even be able to do so a second time. Besides, after many tests on both ladder and experienced players, mb sawk just always goes for eq when you have a weezing in your team so it's really not that hard to predict.
For wormadam, I vote E rank, it's not completely worthless, but I don't think any team will make a better use wormadam-T better than other mons like metang. Ok it ohko's jynx with sucker punch after something has been used as sleep fodder but yeah there's something called switching out and it makes wormadam a complete loss of momentum.
My issue with Wormadam is that I see no reason whatsoever to use it over pretty much any other Stealth Rock setter. Metang has comparable bulk before factoring in Eviolite. After adding Eviolite to it, its bulk is overall much better. On top of that, slightly better attack stats and much better STAB and coverage moves to choose from mean that it will has harder most of the time. I don't even care much for Metang, but it's definitely better than Wormadam. There are also plenty of other mons with access to Stealth Rock (Golem, Marowak, Regirock, Relicanth, Seismitoad, etc) who have uses outside of setting up Stealth Rock and still doing something on the team.
I don't know, I just don't see the use of carrying it on a team. Outside of handling Jynx, it doesn't seem to do much else. I wouldn't care if Wormadam went to D-Rank, but I couldn't see it going any higher.
I don't know, I just don't see the use of carrying it on a team. Outside of handling Jynx, it doesn't seem to do much else. I wouldn't care if Wormadam went to D-Rank, but I couldn't see it going any higher.
Alright, I was going to hold off on nominating Ninjask for A-Rank (Or at least B+ if that ever becomes a thing) until I could accumulate some evidence, but oh my goodness this things is wonderful in the new metagame. He kicks ass against sun teams, and he's able to straight up murder all of the new offensive threats.
This one didn't feature Ninjask much, but being a very fast late game cleaner was useful for outrunning Jumpluff at the end. (Admittedly Torkoal shone more than anyone else on my team for that match, which is weird.)
A second replay shows Ninjask sweeping the latter half of an opposing team. Torkoal's rocks helped it get the (guarantee on the) KO on Scolipede, and some full paralysis hax let it finish off Misdreavus. Though admittedly my Misdreavus counter, Liepard, straight up /missed/ with Swagger earlier in the match.
Cleaning at the end as usual.
This replay is my favorite, though it happened before the previous listing. I was Hiker Hardrada for this one. I did some silly stuff at the beginning, but the game plan was to remove the enemy Piloswine, Carracosta, and Swellow so that I could sweep their Jynx, Primeape, and Scolipede using Ninjask. (Yeah, really!) I did very poorly in the beginning, and so had to rely on a Stone Edge miss from Carracosta, but once he went down, it was a pretty clean sweep. I didn't manage to take out their Swellow with the rest of my team, but Ninjask managed it by catching Swellow on the switch.
Ninjask straight tanked a Close Combat from Primeape and a Quick Attack from Swellow and plowed right through the rest of that team. I had to U-Turn to Swellow in order to guarantee the KO on Scolipede (normally just a 12.5% chance to OHKO it with Aerial Ace), but after that? Ninjask killed a Swellow, Primeape, Scolipede, and Jynx. Bug/Flying coverage is great with so many bugs, fighting types, psychics, and dark types around. Not to mention that Ninjask can almost singlehandedly beat most sun teams.
By the way, I support Primeape for S-Tier. Its ability to scout with U-Turn while still hitting fairly hard is nice. It's definitely powerful, though my Ninjask-testing team has obviously never had a problem with it. I'm actually glad to see it, Jynx, and Scolipede on opposing teams because I know how easily they're handled.
This one didn't feature Ninjask much, but being a very fast late game cleaner was useful for outrunning Jumpluff at the end. (Admittedly Torkoal shone more than anyone else on my team for that match, which is weird.)
A second replay shows Ninjask sweeping the latter half of an opposing team. Torkoal's rocks helped it get the (guarantee on the) KO on Scolipede, and some full paralysis hax let it finish off Misdreavus. Though admittedly my Misdreavus counter, Liepard, straight up /missed/ with Swagger earlier in the match.
Cleaning at the end as usual.
This replay is my favorite, though it happened before the previous listing. I was Hiker Hardrada for this one. I did some silly stuff at the beginning, but the game plan was to remove the enemy Piloswine, Carracosta, and Swellow so that I could sweep their Jynx, Primeape, and Scolipede using Ninjask. (Yeah, really!) I did very poorly in the beginning, and so had to rely on a Stone Edge miss from Carracosta, but once he went down, it was a pretty clean sweep. I didn't manage to take out their Swellow with the rest of my team, but Ninjask managed it by catching Swellow on the switch.
Ninjask straight tanked a Close Combat from Primeape and a Quick Attack from Swellow and plowed right through the rest of that team. I had to U-Turn to Swellow in order to guarantee the KO on Scolipede (normally just a 12.5% chance to OHKO it with Aerial Ace), but after that? Ninjask killed a Swellow, Primeape, Scolipede, and Jynx. Bug/Flying coverage is great with so many bugs, fighting types, psychics, and dark types around. Not to mention that Ninjask can almost singlehandedly beat most sun teams.
By the way, I support Primeape for S-Tier. Its ability to scout with U-Turn while still hitting fairly hard is nice. It's definitely powerful, though my Ninjask-testing team has obviously never had a problem with it. I'm actually glad to see it, Jynx, and Scolipede on opposing teams because I know how easily they're handled.
I dunno about A-Rank, especially for a pokemon with that SR weakness and not much offensive prowess to speak of. Offensive Ninjask works much like Zebstrika and Sneasel in that they can kill off fast frail threats that they can outspeed, but lack the power to bring down many neutral threats (let's be honest - Bug/Flying/Dark coverage isn't hitting all that much). The SR weakness is really the biggest thorn in Ninjask's side, meaning he cannot spam U-Turn as much as he would like and gets at most 2 chances to come into battle if the Rocks are up, which is really bad for a Choiced poke (he can't even recover that health like Zard and Cuno can, not like he should). His STABs are also really weak, even moreso than Sneasel's and Floatzel's. Yeah, those pokes known for having no physical STAB greater than 80? Ninjask's Attack sits at an average 90 compared to Sneasel's 95 and Floatzel's 105, which isn't really good for something just as frail and unlike Scolipede, Ninjask can't find the time to boost because he isn't scaring out very much what with mediocre coverage and move power. Still, Ninjask's Baton Passing prowess is still something to behold, so he's likely staying in B-Rank.
Primeape for S-Rank is a nomination with plenty of support, mine included. Primeape's Scarf set arguably outclasses Sawk's (only if you can keep Sturdy active), and has more options than Sawk both in support and attacking. Primeape's access to Encore gives him possible free turns against defensive pokemon or setup moves (though I struggle to fully utilise Encore against status which it does nothing against). Taunt is nothing new as Sawk has it too, but the ability to U-Turn into your own threat to either take advantage of the helpless wall or the switch-in gives it a much, much greater edge over Sawk in terms of stallbreaking. Yeah, Primeape gets my vote.
Primeape for S-Rank is a nomination with plenty of support, mine included. Primeape's Scarf set arguably outclasses Sawk's (only if you can keep Sturdy active), and has more options than Sawk both in support and attacking. Primeape's access to Encore gives him possible free turns against defensive pokemon or setup moves (though I struggle to fully utilise Encore against status which it does nothing against). Taunt is nothing new as Sawk has it too, but the ability to U-Turn into your own threat to either take advantage of the helpless wall or the switch-in gives it a much, much greater edge over Sawk in terms of stallbreaking. Yeah, Primeape gets my vote.
Hmm, the first of those links go to the wrong video. I'll fix that if I can find the right one. And the third link seems to be entirely broken.
Yeah, I was a bit unsure about whether that alone is enough to qualify. I will say that in 100+ battles with variations of that team, not a single one of my Pokemon have been killed by Jynx, Primeape, or Scolipede. (Except for that Swellow that ate a Megahorn in the last replay, but that's because it was a battle against the primary two Pokemon my team had trouble with at the time: Piloswine and Carracosta, plus one Golurk lost to a Jynx by force of sheer brainfart.) Those Pokemon lost have either been directly avenged by Ninjask, or the slayer has been forced to run, giving Ninjask free reign to U-Turn out. (Since Jynx is OHKO'd by U-Turn anyway.) Is there any other one Pokemon that can check/revenge kill all three of those so easily?
Yeah, I was a bit unsure about whether that alone is enough to qualify. I will say that in 100+ battles with variations of that team, not a single one of my Pokemon have been killed by Jynx, Primeape, or Scolipede. (Except for that Swellow that ate a Megahorn in the last replay, but that's because it was a battle against the primary two Pokemon my team had trouble with at the time: Piloswine and Carracosta, plus one Golurk lost to a Jynx by force of sheer brainfart.) Those Pokemon lost have either been directly avenged by Ninjask, or the slayer has been forced to run, giving Ninjask free reign to U-Turn out. (Since Jynx is OHKO'd by U-Turn anyway.) Is there any other one Pokemon that can check/revenge kill all three of those so easily?
How about Swellow? Swellow can even Pursuit trap Jynx and Misdreavus and unlike Ninjask, not have a 4x SR weakness and smash neutral targets like Eelektross, Tauros and Samurott hard.
Scarf Tauros can also do the same (and Pursuit-trap Jynx), and takes neutral damage from SR, unlike Swellow.
To keep SR away it does need a lot of support (Ninjask that is) and I don't think an A Pokemon should be hindered so heavily by SR (if it's opting for U-turn as you referred to) and need specific team support for it. Charizard is also 4x affected by SR (and isn't A, either) and can do a lot more to the majority of NU, depending what it uses, and can fit into more than one role really well. Ninjask on the other hand is physical and struggles against some of the common physical walls found in NU, which requires a lot of set up (which is like, a 7HKO on Alomomola without any boosts). It can work well to take out those three in specific, yeah, but it still does need a lot of team support to be completely successful, which is why I think it's better fit in B than A.
To keep SR away it does need a lot of support (Ninjask that is) and I don't think an A Pokemon should be hindered so heavily by SR (if it's opting for U-turn as you referred to) and need specific team support for it. Charizard is also 4x affected by SR (and isn't A, either) and can do a lot more to the majority of NU, depending what it uses, and can fit into more than one role really well. Ninjask on the other hand is physical and struggles against some of the common physical walls found in NU, which requires a lot of set up (which is like, a 7HKO on Alomomola without any boosts). It can work well to take out those three in specific, yeah, but it still does need a lot of team support to be completely successful, which is why I think it's better fit in B than A.
Alright, B makes more sense. (Though I'd say not just for the baton passing, it doesn't really matter.)
I have used a Swellow as well, but it dies to scarf Primeape's stone edge. Scarf Tauros does well against Jynx and Primeape, but fails to OHKO Scolipede. That's a possibility, though, I'll check it out.
Samurott for A-rank. Samurott is a good poke, there is no doubting that. However, his Swords Dance set is quickly becoming outclassed by Scolipede, who gets STAB on Megahorn and has more overall unpredictability. SubSalac is also outclassed by Scolipede, who has a higher base speed so it can not only safely set up more subs but also outrun common choice scarf users like Sawk, Primeape, and Braviary. The special set is walled by Ludicolo, but more importantly, it's checked by Jynx. For these reasons, Samurott is no longer deserving of S-rank.
I just saw dragonair and dodrio in D rank. I was checking to see where delibird was (it might be like really low D just because it knows rapid spin and hustle, but that's not my proposal) and noticed them there. They should not be D, they should be C, at least.
The drops may not have been that kind to them, particularly jynx, but if I'd have seen them in D a while ago I would have brought it up.
By no means are either of them bad. Dragonair has access to the rare espeed and dodrio has tangled feet to be able to run thrash of all things well.
Dodrio:
It's band set is terrifying in NU, and its ability to OHKO primeape with a scarf while also out-speeding it is only good news. It, like swellow, has great STABs in this metagame and it has the same coverage as swellow (pursuit) so that is not a valid argument. Dodrio is out-classed by Swellow? The 35 extra power it has on him says not. Swellow IS faster, but they are pretty different.
However, I'm not an expert on dragonair by any means. Either way, putting that out there.
The drops may not have been that kind to them, particularly jynx, but if I'd have seen them in D a while ago I would have brought it up.
By no means are either of them bad. Dragonair has access to the rare espeed and dodrio has tangled feet to be able to run thrash of all things well.
Dodrio:
It's band set is terrifying in NU, and its ability to OHKO primeape with a scarf while also out-speeding it is only good news. It, like swellow, has great STABs in this metagame and it has the same coverage as swellow (pursuit) so that is not a valid argument. Dodrio is out-classed by Swellow? The 35 extra power it has on him says not. Swellow IS faster, but they are pretty different.
However, I'm not an expert on dragonair by any means. Either way, putting that out there.
I agree dodrio is very under rated but it is outclassed by braviary who has better attack, access to rock slide, u-turn and superpower and can run a bulk up set, but the speed helps a lot and it has stab priority (quick attack) so i think it should be C-Rank.
As for dragonair i find fracture is a lot better.
This is completely false. How can you compare Scolipede to Samurott? Sure, they are both physical attackers, but what Samurott has more than Scoli is STAB Priority to abuse, something that the centipede does not have. SubSalac is almost exclusively used with Special Moves, so I can't see how it can be outclassed by Scolipede as well. The Special set is walled by Ludicolo, I give you that, but Ludicolo is getting much more rare in this meta, and more importantly, I have seen Special Samurotts going with Hydro Pump or Surf | Ice Beam | Hidden Power [Electric] | Megahorn, allowing you to deal with both Ludicolo AND Jynx. Samurott can afford running a bit of bulk (The EV Spread was 252 Atk / 192 HP / 64 Spd iirc), as Speed tying with Ludicolo is kind of useless. Samurott for S.
Primeape for S-Rank, because it has U-Turn, which is like a little free ball of momentum, still hits hard with a Scarf, and is able to outrun the Rotom-Forms.
I'd also like Munchlax to be in B. It has exceptional SDef, allowing it to take Special hits all day, has reliable recovery in Rest, and isn't a setup fodder because of Whirlwind. It can also run a surprisingly viable Curse set with Pursuit to trap Jynx.
To continue, I'd like to nominate Charizard for A-Rank. This thing is a goddamn beast, and it just got better with the new drops. With a Scarf, it can outspeed any variants of Primeape and Jynx, and any variants of Scolipede that doesn't run a Scarf (LOL) and OHKO them with the appropriate move. It's also surprisingly diverse, being able to run a very effective Swords Dance set with Earthquake, Stone Edge and Flare Blitz. It becomes even more scarier on Sun teams, where it can use Solar Power to hit extremely hard. While it's 4x SR weakness is it's biggest downfall, it gets Roost to heal itself.
STAB Aqua Jet keeps Samurott pretty relevant. Samurott's unpredictably is still one of its strongest suits, as the opponent has to either risk their Jynx eating a Megahorn or guessing whether it's a physical, special or mixed set. Scolipede is great but it's still SR-weak and has trouble with the rising Weezing. However, I will admit Samurott is getting threatened with Zebstrika on the rise, though Zebstrike also outspeeds Scolipede and usually carries a Fire attack.
How can you not compare Scolipede to Samurott? Granted, Samurott does have STAB Aqua Jet, but Scolipede has higher speed and for the most part does not need the extra priority. While I do apologize for the mix up (I remembered incorrectly on that Samurott Salac set), consider the role of the Salac berry. It raises speed by one stage. This doesn't stop Samurott from being outsped by most every relevant Scarf user in the tier, though. Scolipede utilizes it much better, as their are no notable Scarf users above the base 112 speed tier. Even though they vary in means of attacking, that's not to say Scolipede doesn't work SubSalac more effectively.
Megahorn is usable to get rid of Ludicolo and Jynx, but you have to give up on other alternatives that have more utility. For example, Taunt can be used to make him an effective anti-lead. Aqua Jet gives him useful priority. If you use Megahorn, Samurott can no longer get these benefits. (Also, HP Electric? When does that make sense?)
The bulky EV spread is maybe the only thing that gives Samurott a bit of an edge. But at the end of the day, offensive playstyles dominate NU, and most people would rather have higher speed than a little bit of bulk. Samurott for A-rank.
Not to say Charizard is bad, but you have to remember what A-rank is for...
Charizard does hit really hard and does check a lot of the metagame, but you'd be hard pressed to find a pro player that doesn't pair him with a spinner. Charizard would require more support than any other pokemon in A-rank if he were moved there. On top of that, spinning is really difficult to pull off effectively in NU. Roost doesn't fix a whole lot; the opponent would get a free turn to bring in a scarf user that could wreck Charizard. If a pokemon is, in fact, an "A-rank", it shouldn't have to always bring along a pokemon from B. Charizard for B-rank.
I have thoughts on a few other changes, but I'd just like to address this.
Priority helps significantly, as does the increase in bulk and different STABs. For example, Adamant LO Samurott has a 50% chance of OHKOing Scarf Primeape after SR, and if you're not interested in LO (I favor Mystic Water), a single layer of Spikes gives it a very similar chance of OHKOing. Scolipede has to switch in fear of a Stone Edge. Salac Samurott has always been mediocre, for the reasons you listed. It was not S-Rank because the Salac set was good. That point is moot altogether.
Megahorn has just as much utility as those other moves..? Saying "you have to pick one or the other" is not really a valid argument that it's bad. It means it has many good options, and Megahorn on special Samurott just got significantly better and makes it a good option for Ludicolo and Jynx. Aqua Jet is weak as hell on special Samurott, though I do see the merit. (HP Electric was ran as coverage to hit Mantine; it does the same thing as HP Grass but you pick and chose between Mantine and Seismitoad.)
Bulk vs speed is not a reasonable argument for lowering Samurott's rank, especially when it has a means to mediate that difference (Aqua Jet). I will concede that it's suddenly not so easy to just slap it in a team and own everything, but it's still incredibly good and it does well in this metagame. I don't think it needs to drop.
Priority helps significantly, as does the increase in bulk and different STABs. For example, Adamant LO Samurott has a 50% chance of OHKOing Scarf Primeape after SR, and if you're not interested in LO (I favor Mystic Water), a single layer of Spikes gives it a very similar chance of OHKOing. Scolipede has to switch in fear of a Stone Edge. Salac Samurott has always been mediocre, for the reasons you listed. It was not S-Rank because the Salac set was good. That point is moot altogether.
Megahorn has just as much utility as those other moves..? Saying "you have to pick one or the other" is not really a valid argument that it's bad. It means it has many good options, and Megahorn on special Samurott just got significantly better and makes it a good option for Ludicolo and Jynx. Aqua Jet is weak as hell on special Samurott, though I do see the merit. (HP Electric was ran as coverage to hit Mantine; it does the same thing as HP Grass but you pick and chose between Mantine and Seismitoad.)
Bulk vs speed is not a reasonable argument for lowering Samurott's rank, especially when it has a means to mediate that difference (Aqua Jet). I will concede that it's suddenly not so easy to just slap it in a team and own everything, but it's still incredibly good and it does well in this metagame. I don't think it needs to drop.
Comparing Scolipede to Samurott is incredibly short-sighted because I can't really think of two Pokemon that are more different. Sure, you can argue that Scolipede does a Sub Salac set better than Samurott, but that's avoiding the fact that a Sub Salac set is one of the least effective sets for both Pokemon.
Scolipede is a top tier threat because it's fast, it can boost and pass those boosts, it can set up spikes, and it keeps the Psychic-types in the tier far, far away.
Samurott is a top tier threat because of its versatility: it runs equally dangerous special and physical sets, and until it attacks, you never know what set it's running. It also has a decent amount of bulk that it can take advantage of by switching into weak attacks from walls.
Comparing the two and then saying that one is better is like saying spoons are better than chopsticks because you can eat soup with a spoon. Samurott should stay in S.
Also: from the battles I've seen of top players, they usually don't carry a spinner with Charizard. The reason for that is because Charizard is incredibly effective on offensive teams right now that don't give the opponent free turns to set up Stealth Rock in the first place. It has an excellent speed tier right now (outspeeding the 95 speed tier and hitting everything in it extremely hard), and there aren't very many Fire-resists around that can handle it. I'm not saying it deserves A, but I could definitely see the argument there for it.
Scolipede is a top tier threat because it's fast, it can boost and pass those boosts, it can set up spikes, and it keeps the Psychic-types in the tier far, far away.
Samurott is a top tier threat because of its versatility: it runs equally dangerous special and physical sets, and until it attacks, you never know what set it's running. It also has a decent amount of bulk that it can take advantage of by switching into weak attacks from walls.
Comparing the two and then saying that one is better is like saying spoons are better than chopsticks because you can eat soup with a spoon. Samurott should stay in S.
Also: from the battles I've seen of top players, they usually don't carry a spinner with Charizard. The reason for that is because Charizard is incredibly effective on offensive teams right now that don't give the opponent free turns to set up Stealth Rock in the first place. It has an excellent speed tier right now (outspeeding the 95 speed tier and hitting everything in it extremely hard), and there aren't very many Fire-resists around that can handle it. I'm not saying it deserves A, but I could definitely see the argument there for it.
I may not be the best NU player around, but I can definitely attest to the sheer power of Charizard. I don't run spinners anymore, in stead I tend to go for taunters to hold off rocks, but when I can no longer prevent the rocks from coming up from the likes of Piloswine, I send in Charizard at that moment because Piloswine can't do enough to Charizard anyways. When it comes to the other SR setters (and there's a looooott of them), like Golem or Regirock, roost is your friend but otherwise takes away a move slot. I don't know if I agree with Zard for A-tier, but it is a very good mon in this meta and it can rip teams apart.
The problem is that the support required is rather significant and the time spent trying to clear the way for Zard is kind of tedious. Otherwise, there is not much holding this thing back, so that is just my two cents.
The problem is that the support required is rather significant and the time spent trying to clear the way for Zard is kind of tedious. Otherwise, there is not much holding this thing back, so that is just my two cents.
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