NU Viability Ranking

[Aasgier]

STAB Ice, Lovely Kiss access, Dry Skin and Nasty Plot access are all huge things though.
As well as that Base 95 is the most important speed tier in NU right now, whereas Garde with Base 80 is too slow (and physically frail as well, just like Jynx though maybe not as bad, but any physical attacker worth crap scares Garde out anyway).

Musharna is still scary, but the four drops all harm it in one way, Primeape U-Turns out of it, Scolipede deals a huge shitload of damage with Megahorn, and Jynx puts it to sleep and proceeds to set up on it.
The fourth drop, Munchlax walls it to death, essentially forcing it out, racking up hazard damage with Whirlwind in the process.

 

[ryan]

Since I don't want this thread to die off in the depths of the NU sub-forum, I am going to nominate Dragonair for C-Rank.

Dragonair may face competition from Fraxure and Altaria on the offensive role while also facing competition with Shelgon on the defensive role, but there are unique options that Dragonair has in its arsenal that differentiates it from the other Dragons: Shed Skin and Extremespeed. With the combination of Shed Skin, really good bulk factoring Eviolite, as well as Dragon Dance: Dragonair can be devestating for unprepared teams. Dragonair can setup on numerous walls such as Alomomola, Misdreavus, and Musharna because of its decent bulk and ability to heal itself completely with Rest. The rise of offensive teams may hinder the usefulness of Dragonair, but if Dragonair somehow gets to +2 (which it can if Pokemon like Zebstrika or Sawsbuck are on the field), it becomes a real threat to offensive teams as it is capable of sweeping solely with ExtremeSpeed and Outrage.

Though, flaws are still prominent. Even with those certain niches listed above, Fraxure is still the usual go-to offensive Dragon as it doesn't need to setup as much as Dragonair with its really good offensive prowess as well as superior coverage moves. Shelgon's monstrous bulk can check even Choice Band Sawk, while Altaria has much more versatility, and has no competition if it is being used as a Special Sweeper in NU. But do take note that Dragonair is definitely a decent choice for a Dragon type, and should not be taken lightly.

I do agree with this post, and I recall nominating Dragonair for C-Rank some time ago. That said, I still support it rising in ranks mainly due to the reasons you listed.

One other niche that Dragonair has over Fraxure (and to an extent, Zweilous), is that it makes for a great bulky parashuffler. Due to the advent of Eviolite, Dragonair has great bulk. Add Marvel Scale on to that, and its bulk is compounded even further. This allows for Dragonair to run a great RestTalk set, and it even benefits from being statused outside of Rest. It's no Milotic by any means, but it's as close as NU has to offer.

 

[The NU Tuber]

I'd like to nominate Simisage to C-Rank so he can be with his two monkey brothers (nah, jk I have an actual reason).

I feel, especially with all the new dropdowns, that Simisage doesn't really have much going for him over Serperior anymore. Serperior has higher speed, better bulk and thus can boost easier, and has a better boosting move imo in Calm Mind. Serp's speed tier is now more important than ever with Scolipede everywhere, with him JUST outspeeding Pede by one base point and KOing with HP Rock after a little prior damage. Simisage does have one advantage over Serp in Focus Blast to hit Steels, but the two most common Steels in the tier (Probopass and Bastiodon) are neutral to Grass anyway and most others, barring maybe Metang, are somewhat irrelevant. I honestly just feel anything Simisage can do these days, Serperior can do better.

 

[ryan]

I disagree with that, and here's why.

Simisage has certain niches over Serperior that shouldn't be ignored.

First off, thanks to its base 98 SpA, Simisage hits notably harder than Serperior (who has base 75 SpA). Of course, Serperior can fix this with Calm Mind, and he does have superior bulk over Simisage which makes it easier to set up. On the other hand, Simisage does have Nasty Plot which means after one turn, Simisage will be hitting for far more damage than Serperior will.

Additionally, Simisage has the option to go mixed if it would like to because its physical movepool is significantly better than that of Serperior. It has Rock Slide, Superpower, Acrobatics, Gunk Shot (fuck off Tangela), Crunch, etc. While generally, a pure physical set is a poor choice, you can use Simisage as a lure to its would-be checks and counters far better than what Serperior can.

No, you're probably not going to be sweeping as easily with Simisage as your would with Serperior, but to me, this isn't even a factor anyways in most scenarios. Simisage is pretty often going to struggle to set up anyways. Choice Specs Simisage is very good in my opinion, and so is Life Orb. All in all, Simisage's better initial power is enough reason to justify its spot on teams.

Ultimately, is Serperior the better Pokeon for this metagame? I believe so. Do I think that Serperior has a much easier time setting up? For sure. Do I think that Simisage still has enough niche as a Grass-type attacker to keep it B-Rank? I do.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I agree with simisage for C rank. Of course it has certan niches over serp it's a different mon with different stats, but I don't think any of them are enough to make him worth B rank. First off, the fact we now have a faster bug-poison in S rank surely hinders the monkey's capacity to use sub + overgrow giga drain which iirc was the reason he was promoted to b rank in first place. It's coverage in general is rather bad since focus blast, it's main secondary stab will only hit a couple of (now less common) sap sipper mons, steels and miss out on poison bug and flying mons which makes simi really not that hard to wall.

@ Treecko37

A mixed set is a very poor option on simisage, 98 in both attacks is way too weak to have one uninvested and his mono stab doesn't help. A full phyical set is actually possible with seed bomb, acrobatics, sub, endeavor @flying gem + overgrow but simipour does it better with a flinch chance on waterfall slightly better coverage and a more significant surprise effect (for jynx).

No, you're probably not going to be sweeping as easily with Simisage as your would with Serperior, but to me, this isn't even a factor anyways in most scenarios. Simisage is pretty often going to struggle to set up anyways.

serperior can fix this with Calm Mind, and he does have superior bulk over Simisage which makes it easier to set up. On the other hand, Simisage does have Nasty Plot which means after one turn, Simisage will be hitting for far more damage than Serperior will.

As you said, simisage will really struggle to set up his nasty plot and even if he does, outspeeding tauros and scolipede is a huge plus for a sweeper and seperior has that going for him.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah Simisage isn't too excellent in the meta right now, Serperior does a much better job against offensive teams due to its greater speed and bulk, and access to boosting moves to enhance that bulk further means Simisage will have its work cut out for him against defensively oriented teams as well, even with his Sub+Endeavor set, where you will likely lose Simisage in the process. Back to C-Rank, coolest afro monkey.

On the subject of Simis, Simisear has gotten better in this meta (most Fire-types do really). He can be just as dangerous as Charizard (usually not more :[ ) in many cases. The difference in power can be notable, but Simisear utilises Choice sets better than Charizard due to a less pronounced SR weakness, which it can actually use to activate Blaze indirectly unlike Zard. Simisear also boasts the ability to power up without losing health automatically (including the setup turn itself) with Nasty Plot. It boasts less bulk than Charizard as well as the inability to heal for that kind of setup, but can use the same opportunities for a boost against pokemon it threatens anyway. Simisear's biggest draw is its expansive movepool, which is much more forgiving on it than on Charizard. Grass Knot can nail Waters and heavy Rocks like Regirock without the need to Focus Blast. Simisear can utilise its physical coverage moves for mixed sets (arguably better than Charizard due to higher attack), with moves like Low Kick or Superpower which clobbers unsuspecting Munchlax and Lickilicky, Shadow Claw which rips up bulky Psychics, and Rock Slide for opposing Fires (except Torkoal and Camerupt) and Mantine, making Simisear more versatile than Charizard. Finally, the increasingly popular Sub+Endeavor set can also be pulled off by Simisear to take down walls in much the same fashion as Tauros and cousin Simisage do, but Simisear has the advantage in better 2-move coverage. Simisear can activate Blaze in this way as well. It can't regain health like Simisear, but its attacks do inflict much more of a sting. I haven't even gotten to interesting pinch berry sets that can use either Gluttony or Blaze for quicker setup or increased power, both of which aid in sweeping.

Simisear can still be a strong contender in this meta despite the shift popularizing numerous faster opponents, so I nominate Simisear for B-Rank.

 

[GOthee]

Why do you even compare Simisage to Serperior, the only thing they have in common its their grass types. Simisage goes a more offensive set, and can defeat many A rank Tanks if it mage ot grab a Nasty plot which Serperior just cant achieve. I think it should be C rank because even tho he is considered strong in some areas, he is prone to being revenge killed and you have to predict really well to really make it worth using., he can fill some niches for teams but also needs some support , and only with that support he can barely reach B rank.

 

[Aasgier]

Why is Sawsbuck still A-rank?

Sawsbuck is currently sitting on average speed in NU unlike before the drops, so its speed is no longer a reason to use it.
Sawsbuck has good coverage, yes, but its Grass STAB is really disappointing (physical Serperior is weak? Well, Sawsbuck isn't any stronger (or weaker for that matter) because of Leaf Blade > Horn Leech).

I see it still having some use on Sun teams, but it competes with Leavanny and Leafeon whenever you need more power behind that Grass STAB. Normal STAB is great though.

I suggest Sawsbuck drops down to C-Rank, since it only has a rather small niche left. You can't just slam it on a team anymore like you could before.

 

[sickweare]

Speaking of speed, what do you guys think about Swanna?

I think it has potential to be an A-rank mon. Because of its 98 speed it barely overtakes the new norm of 95 and threatens both Primeape and Scolipede greatly. Swanna is an amazing asset to rain teams, and with life orb attached its Hurricane hits like a truck, OHKOing many threats. It's one of offensive teams worst nightmare, and it finds many situations to set up too and sometimes stalling it out with Toxic is impossible thanks to Hydration. Swanna is so underrated it's not even funny. It has flaws like subpar bulk, and the big one being weak to SR, but with some team support Swanna is a graceful bird that will soar through the opponent's team. It can also end up supportting your team without you knowing it. I know if you've looked around PU I pretty much rave over Swanna a lot, but it i really good and you should use it c:

 

[GOthee]

Speaking of speed, what do you guys think about Swanna?

I think it has potential to be an A-rank mon. Because of its 98 speed it barely overtakes the new norm of 95 and threatens both Primeape and Scolipede greatly. Swanna is an amazing asset to rain teams, and with life orb attached its Hurricane hits like a truck, OHKOing many threats. It's one of offensive teams worst nightmare, and it finds many situations to set up too and sometimes stalling it out with Toxic is impossible thanks to Hydration. Swanna is so underrated it's not even funny. It has flaws like subpar bulk, and the big one being weak to SR, but with some team support Swanna is a graceful bird that will soar through the opponent's team. It can also end up supportting your team without you knowing it. I know if you've looked around PU I pretty much rave over Swanna a lot, but it i really good and you should use it c:

Swanna for A-rank indeed!. If you havent feared me moment you saw a Swanna in a rain team in NU, you haven't played NU enough.

PD: Aboutut Sawsbuck remember he isnt in that spot only for being jsut like a phsyical serperior. They seem the same but you forget that he also has STAB 120 base power move called Double-Edge which hits really hard stuff a lot after a SD. And also Horn Leech recovers HP . Now If Serperior had Horn Leech( imagine a 4th evolution of serp with a horn) He could be higher rank or even other tier lol.

 

[Aasgier]

Horn Leech significantly lacks power as Sawsbuck misses out on numerous vital OHKO's, even some versions of Golurk (252 HP / 4 Def EV's always suffice to prevent Sawsbuck from OHKO'ing without boosts, no matter what), which means you can DynamicPunch it to death. Sawsbuck also misses out on the 2HKO on Alomomola.

Serperior also has Coil, which is arguably better than SD, and different but just as useful coverage options (and said coverage options don't leave holes in the form of Haunter and Drifblim).

Of course, Double Edge hits hard, but Ghosts are immune, and Gurdurr does not give a fuck. Bronzor also laughs at Sawsbuck and proceeds to set up in its face.

Kangaskhan also gives Sawsbuck significant competition with Fake Out and Sucker Punch access if it comes to STAB Double Edge spam.

 

[Laga]

So, when are you gonna add Munchlax and Primeape? I find them both very good in the NU meta: A rank in my opinion, or at least put them on the list :]

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

So, when are you gonna add Munchlax and Primeape? I find them both very good in the NU meta: A rank in my opinion, or at least put them on the list :]

They were to be B-Rank and A-Rank, respectively. Primeape's definitely A imo since he's a great revenge killer and scout in this metagame and although he doesn't have Sawk's power, Primeape can still scout and hit decently hard. Munchlax walls a lot of special attackers such as Samurott and Haunter and can phaze, so I guess B is most suitable for him. He's weak to Primeape and Sawk's CC though so B is fine.

 

[ebeast]

I think that Sawk should probably drop down to A-rank along with Primeape. Its speed tier was decent enough before the shifts to get things done, but now with the overall speed of the metagame increasing it's kind of hard to put use. Scarf would somewhat help its speed problem but now its not very strong and doesn't have U-turn to spam like Primeape does. Primeape also has a better speed tier for a Scarfer and outspeeds Scarf Rotom-N while tying with other Apes and Scarf Jynx.

CB is still good when you can get it working, but I don't think it's good enough to warrant Sawk for S-rank anymore.

 

[Punchshroom]

I still think Sawk has a more domineering presence on the metagame despite competition with Primeape. The thing is, Sawk can more easily punish unprepared teams with its power, notably troubling teams relying on Misdreavus or Weezing instead of something like Musharna as their sole Fighting check, whereas Primeape's weaker Attack tends to be easier to deal with even against a team without a solid Fighting-resist. Whether it should drop to A-Rank or stay in S is still up for debate though.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah tbh I'm on the fence in regards to whether Sawk should drop. He's still something to prepare for, not to mention Musharna has been dropping in relevance with Scolipede and Jynx making it a lot harder to use. Sawk can smash teams with ease once its checks are gone and it's something that needs to be prepared for. I dunno, I could see it in S or A, I don't mind which, but I'm still pretty torn.

Btw, Golurk for S-Rank? It's a ton more useful in this meta with the new drops; it checks Scolipede and Primeape well (and lol Munchlax but no one uses it anyways), and it's a nice spinblocker that shits on a lot of spinners, which is better with Spikes getting more relevant. It also is extremely powerful with the movepool and 124 Attack, and it is pretty difficult to wall unless it's Alomomola. It's also pretty hard to switch into. So thoughts?

 

[Infernis]

@Sawk in S-Rank: CB Sawk's ability to flat-out destroy practically every hazard lead is still unmatched, I think. It has a better shot at keeping hazards off the field than most spinners, I would even say. And while base 85 speed isn't "fast" anymore, it's still fast enough to beat most walls and deal some major damage.

@Golurk in S-Rank: You know, this actually makes a lot of sense. It spinblocks, it can put up hazards, and it can hit like a truck with that base 124 attack. And it did, after all, get to #1 usage last month. Its low speed can let it down, but the CB set still outruns many walls and deals some ridiculous damage. The support set has the capability of beating almost every other stealth rocker bar Seismitoad and some sucker-punch-bearing Golem. Even better, it blocks Rapid Spin while being able to take on Armaldo and Torkoal on with ease. (And Wartortle if you can avoid a burn.) The fighting and electric immunities also provide great defensive synergy. As for wallbreaking, check this out.

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 302-356 (69.74 - 82.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 254-300 (78.39 - 92.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Vileplume: 260-308 (73.44 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 326-384 (76.88 - 90.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Regirock: 254-302 (69.78 - 82.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad: 328-387 (79.22 - 93.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Watch out for a burn from Scald, though)
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 748-888 (230.86 - 274.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Bastiodon: 600-708 (185.18 - 218.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roselia: 584-688 (242.32 - 285.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.84 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And no small number of those drop to potential OHKOs (Tangela to a 2HKO) after spikes or stealth rock. If you can predict well, CB Golurk can smash things to pieces.

 

[GOthee]

Wow Golurk sure has great offensive presence!. Too bad Banded ice punch only does (40.84 - 48.64%).Tangela is such defensive pokemon.

 

[ryan]

Simisage

Yeah, I guess my points were kind of aiming more towards C-Rank to begin with. I am leaning more towards C-Rank as well for Simisage.

Sawsbuck

I don't know that I agree with Sawsbuck plummeting down to C-Rank. I do agree that being a Grass-type that is slower than Scolipede is a bit of a liability right now, the benefits to running Sawsbuck are still great enough to keep it in B-Rank in my opinion.

First off, no, its Speed isn't stellar anymore, but 95 Base Speed still ties with the likes of Jynx, Haunter, and Primeape. It also still beats out the majority of the tier Speed-wise. Comparing Sawsbuck to Leavanny and Leafeon isn't really fair either in my opinion. Yes, they have a stronger Grass-type STAB move to utilize, but Horn Leech is still no slouch of a move. In addition to that, Sawsbuck has phenomenal options in coverage with Return/Double Edge, Nature Power, Jump Kick, and Megahorn.

Sap Sipper is also a fantastic ability if you are running Sawsbuck outside of the sun. This allows it to check opposing Serperior running Hidden Power Rock, as this is only a 4HKO against Sawsbuck.

I can also see both CB and CS sets being very effective right now. CB hits really hard still, and while Grass may not be the best offensive type for taking down things like Scolipede, a lot of defensive Pokemon are hit super-effectively by Grass (Rock-types, Alomomola, etc) while Pokemon like Tangela are hit hard by Megahorn should you choose to run it.

I feel like Sawsbuck is still good enough to stay out of C-Rank, but I do agree that it's not the same thing it always used to be. I would support dropping it to B-Rank.

Sawk

I think this is a really interesting point. I have still been having success with CB Sawk on offensive teams, and I will probably continue to use it for a while. But you do raise some really good points. I'm on the fence much like many others (maybe because the king of NU may no longer hold the crown). I'll test it some more.

 

[Aasgier]

...Horn Leech IS a slouch considering you miss out on a dozen vital OHKO's and 2HKO's because of that. It essentially means Sawsbuck has Base 75 Atk if it had Leaf Blade.

Not OHKO'ing the most common Pokémon in NU, Golurk, is a real sucker, not getting past Haunter/Drifblim/Misdreavus does not help either (though Leafeon can't get past them either, Leavanny has access to Shadow Claw which OHKO's the former two (Drifblim only after SR)), especially now Misdreavus becomes more common. Neither of these Grass-types get past Weezing, though.

STAB Double Edge is great, but it really racks up recoil, especially if you use a LO and don't use Choice Band. If you use a Scarf, good luck KO'ing stuff because your Grass STAB sucks in the offensive department.
With a Scarf you won't even 3HKO Alomomola, lololol. With a Band, you will 2HKO, but it is obvious from the start you are Banded. Hi *insert set-up sweeper that resists Grass here*.

Yes, Sawsbuck has good coverage, but SD+Baton Pass is done better by Leafeon who has more bulk as well as nothing better to do, whereas Leavanny is the better Utility Counter thanks to its typing.

I never found Sawsbuck that good, usually I just found it overrated when I used it, resulting in me thinking "What the devil am I using?"

 

[GOthee]

Haha well. Sawsbuck should stay where he is. He is a great asset to teams needing a grass pokemon counter thanks to Sap Sipper. And that can actually makes him more viable when making teams. Just a note i got destroyed by a Swasbuck yesterday. He pretty much stopped my Jumppluff shenaningans...:(

 

[vyomov]

Nominating Throh for B-rank
Throh in C-rank? Throh is one of THE bulkiest fighting-types in existence(only out-bulked by Fighting Arceus, it's that good) and can tank hits and storm back.
With 100 Base Attack, it's got good attack as well as that amazing bulk.

 

[Aasgier]

Haha well. Sawsbuck should stay where he is. He is a great asset to teams needing a grass pokemon counter thanks to Sap Sipper. And that can actually makes him more viable when making teams. Just a note i got destroyed by a Swasbuck yesterday. He pretty much stopped my Jumppluff shenaningans...:(

How can Jumpluff lose to Sawsbuck unless you got caught off guard by Scarf Double-Edge??

Then again, there are numerous grass-type counters. That list is growing long quick.

 

[ryan]

Nominating Throh for B-rank
Throh in C-rank? Throh is one of THE bulkiest fighting-types in existence(only out-bulked by Fighting Arceus, it's that good) and can tank hits and storm back.
With 100 Base Attack, it's got good attack as well as that amazing bulk.

I agree with Throh for B-Rank. I brought this up a while back, and while a few people commented on it, discussion on Throh sort of fizzled out. I'll just leave my thoughts from before here:

Throh for B-Rank
My last nom may seem strange, but Throh is a really good mon. It has incredible bulk, and partners alongside something that can handle Ghost-types, it has the potential to sweep entire teams with its Bulk Up/Circle Throw/Resttalk set. With Guts, while it is sleeping and using Sleep Talk, it gets a 1.5x boost to its attack, making its Circle Throws hurt without boosts. In that same regard, Guts makes it an effective status absorber. It's definitely not something to brush aside when you see it in the team preview; however, it does require team support in the form of hazards (which doesn't really reduce the quality of Throh since 99% of teams carry some form of hazard) and in the form of removing Ghost-types from the opposition. Even still, I would definitely support Throh for B-Rank.

 

[Ewil]

Something that i notice that isn't even in the Viability Ranking:

Tropius is a fantastic Sub-Seeder thanks to Harvest and Sitrus Berry. With some speed investiment he can outspeed walls and once he's being a sub he can open the gates of hell. I think he's a better Harvest Sub-Seeder then Exeguttor due to his better second typing in Flying that prevents him not being Pursuit-trapped and the STAB on Air Slash is pretty cool. SR-weakness is not that bad since he can recover with Sitrus-Harvest. The major threats to this set are Sap Sipper mon (Especially Miltank), faster Grass-Type and Trick/Switcheroo/Knock Off/Bug Bite users. Tropius appreciates Paralysis support to outspeed and start seeding faster threats and start a pseudo ParaFlinch combo with Air Slash in conjuction with Sub+Protect. I think that he deserves C-Rank.