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Can someone explain to me why skuntank and rotom are in B+? Golbat outclasses skuntank as a defogger, and sneasel and houndoom outclass it as a pursuiter. I see no reason to use it. Rotom is just frail as hell. It was good last gen as switch in to steelix that could do alot of damage with hex wisp and stuff, but rn there are other steelix switch ins that can do way more damage like vikavolt and specs Mowtom.

Typhlosion is terrible. Mons like jellicent, vaporeon and slowking are on every team because of delphox and emboar so thyphlosion wont be breaking through, and you need rocks off the field. Should be in D or something.

Also hitmonlee does the same as sawk except it has access to rapid spin and two types of priority. Sturdy and mold breaker doesnt give sawk enough of a niche to be ranked in B-.

Aurorus is outclassed by frosslass and piloswine as a hazardsetter and by vanniluxe as specs ice type.

And lastly why would you use pinsir or regirock??
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
I don't feel like speaking on everything else, but Regirock has a niche on sun and Pinsir can use Groundium Z to do stuff. I can't go into detail right now, but I thought I'd just give you a little info on those last two Pokemon. I'd recommend you'd check out some of other people's posts before posting though, as they could give you a little more detail on the Pokemon that you ask about.
 

Sir Kay

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Rotom is an electric type that can also soon block, keeping it's niche using things like z-hex sets and just general colbur sets. Its also a flying resist you can fit on offensive teams which is super nice because they're hard to fit on HO right now.

Typhlosion isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, because it breaks most fire resists in the tier. It 3hkos guzzlord with eruption it's only switching in once, and focus blast is doing around 70%, it 2hkos Miltank with focus blast, with some chip it's able to break cap and jellicent. The mons actually not that bad, and walls aren't why this mom has issues right now. The real reason you're not seeing it played is because of how vulnerable it is to pursuit trapping. Its not hard for your opponent to sack something and go to sneasel. Its much better then D rank.

I think Sawks fine where it is just because sturdy is a bitch for HO to break. I've had to play against CB sturdy a few times, and what I quickly learned is that it's a pain to revenge kill. Its totally fine where it's at and I think more people should explore xatu + strudy sawk teams.

Quziel already made a post explaining why aurosus is still the rank it's at, but rather then just copy him I'm just going to agree with him and refer you to his post on the last page.

And I'm having a hard time understanding your last point. You'd use pinsir and regirock for totally different reasons. You use regirock if you want a fire resist that also doesn't leave you sneasel weak (even tho Miltank is now a thing) and you use pinsir for it's mold breaker SR sets that more times then not is SD rocks mold breaker. I have a hard time understanding why you're comparing them? But if you're looking for why they're different then there you go.
 

Eternally

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Can someone explain to me why skuntank and rotom are in B+? Golbat outclasses skuntank as a pursuit user, and sneasel and houndoom outclass it as a pursuiter. I see no reason to use it. Rotom is just frail as hell. It was good last gen as switch in to steelix that could do alot of damage with hex wisp and stuff, but rn there are other steelix switch ins that can do way more damage like vikavolt and specs Mowtom.

Typhlosion is terrible. Mons like jellicent, vaporeon and slowking are on every team because of delphox and emboar so thyphlosion wont be breaking through, and you need rocks off the field. Should be in D or something.

Also hitmonlee does the same as sawk except it has access to rapid spin and two types of priority. Sturdy and mold breaker doesnt give sawk enough of a niche to be ranked in B-.

Aurorus is outclassed by frosslass and piloswine as a hazardsetter and by vanniluxe as specs ice type.

And lastly why would you use pinsir or regirock??
I'll leave it alone this time, but for future reference if you have questions like these you should use this thread instead: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-nu-edition.3606079/ Also, if you're going to nominate something you'll need a bit more substance than half a line.
 

Punchshroom

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I disagree with this nomination. Lycanroc holds a niche as a stealth rocker that outspeeds Froslass (which means it doesn't have to worry about destiny bond), and a rocker who can hit Xatu hard. Why choose Lycanroc over Rhydon, well it definitely doesn't have the bulk of Rhydon, but it doesn't have to worry about a grass knot from Xatu because it OHKO's it before it can make a move. Of course it struggles against other rockers, but being the best match up against Froslass and Xatu makes it C worthy in my opinion.
In this respect, outspeeding Froslass (and I guess Archeops itself) is the only thing Lycanroc would offer over lead Archeops, and even then Archeops can still speed tie Froslass so it's not a hopeless matchup by any means. Meanwhile, Archeops's access to Endeavor gives it vastly superior matchups, particularly against bulkier foes. If I wanted a hazard lead that can circumvent Froslass, Xatu, and Archeops, I would consider Mental Herb Shell Smash + Rock Blast Crustle (with Sturdy), which also has access to Spikes to expand upon its role. This 'niche' is definitely not enough to keep Lycanroc in the game.
 
In this respect, outspeeding Froslass (and I guess Archeops itself) is the only thing Lycanroc would offer over lead Archeops, and even then Archeops can still speed tie Froslass so it's not a hopeless matchup by any means. Meanwhile, Archeops's access to Endeavor gives it vastly superior matchups, particularly against bulkier foes. If I wanted a hazard lead that can circumvent Froslass, Xatu, and Archeops, I would consider Mental Herb Shell Smash + Rock Blast Crustle (with Sturdy), which also has access to Spikes to expand upon its role. This 'niche' is definitely not enough to keep Lycanroc in the game.

Archeops is better than lycanroc, but there are reasons to use Lycanroc over Archeops. Archeops is most likely getting it's Defeatist ability activated by Sashlass, and in turn is going to be useless for the rest of the game. Lycanroc on the other hand, can actually be useful throughout the entirety of the game, and gets stab priority that can be useful for the likes of Sneasel, scarf Scyther, scarf Delphox, scarf Dodrio, Acclegor, and scarf Braviary, late game. And crustle works for Froslass and Xatu, but I think being able to get past those and have speed that's useful for the rest of the game makes it much better than crustle.
 

Kiyo

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Lycanroc really isn't that good, I'm in favor of unranking it.

Sash sets don't offer enough utility to justify their use (whereas other leads like Crustle, Frosslass, and Archeops do), Life Orb and Z-move sets can be strong but require setup opportunities that Lycanroc simply doesn't get due to its frailty and typing. I haven't seen Stealth Rock without Focus Sash, but its probably the set that offers the most to a team; however, I still think that almost every other Rock-type Stealth Rocker offers more to the average team.
 

Punchshroom

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Archeops is better than lycanroc, but there are reasons to use Lycanroc over Archeops. Archeops is most likely getting it's Defeatist ability activated by Sashlass, and in turn is going to be useless for the rest of the game. Lycanroc on the other hand, can actually be useful throughout the entirety of the game, and gets stab priority that can be useful for the likes of Sneasel, scarf Scyther, scarf Delphox, scarf Dodrio, Acclegor, and scarf Braviary, late game. And crustle works for Froslass and Xatu, but I think being able to get past those and have speed that's useful for the rest of the game makes it much better than crustle.
Archeops functions as a suicide lead; everything it wants to accomplish is done at the start of the game, and it's not meant to last any longer than that since it'd have already done its job(s), and do well at them at that. This applies for Crustle as well. I don't really know how you intend to have Lycanroc set up Stealth Rock while lasting long enough throughout a match to make use of its offensive capabilities (probably a grand total of once, and this is assuming hazards are not on the field because Lycanroc is definitely not outlasting the majority of hazard setters while preserving its health/Sash), especially since it has pretty much zero switch-in opportunities, but know that Lycanroc would be hard pressed to do either of those things better than your average Rocker and just becomes an unspecialized slip-shod mess.
 
-> B-
I have used this mon a fair bit recently and i truly believe its one of the most underrated threats there is, use life orb 3atks, this set is really good and should be used more, spex is just a crippling item as u cant lock urself into any of ur 2 STAB moves otherwise u become gear set up bait. there's still many things against it such as vanilluxe, virizion, sneasel and emboar, just to name some, which is why it shouldn't rise any further than B- for now.

btw Ampharo what archeops has over lycanroc is Endeavor which lets it take down a mon to 1 hp due to its good speed tier before dying which lycanroc cant
 
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Archeops functions as a suicide lead; everything it wants to accomplish is done at the start of the game, and it's not meant to last any longer than that since it'd have already done its job(s), and do well at them at that. This applies for Crustle as well. I don't really know how you intend to have Lycanroc set up Stealth Rock while lasting long enough throughout a match to make use of its offensive capabilities (probably a grand total of once, and this is assuming hazards are not on the field because Lycanroc is definitely not outlasting the majority of hazard setters while preserving its health/Sash), especially since it has pretty much zero switch-in opportunities, but know that Lycanroc would be hard pressed to do either of those things better than your average Rocker and just becomes an unspecialized slip-shod mess.
Grass knot won't even hit sash and I'm pretty sure froslass will just go for a spike, at least half the the time. If Archeops is just a suicide lead I really don't see how it's any better than Lycanroc, if it's just to get rocks up and then die. What does an archeops that gets rocks up and then dies do that Lycanroc wouldn't, Lycanroc can get rocks up and then die just as effectively.
 

quziel

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Archeops has Endeavor and Head Smash, letting it cripple an opponent after laying hazards (Lycanroc doesn't do this nearly as effectively), while Head Smash can be used for clutch situations where you KO yourself to prevent a spin/defog. Both of these are noteworthy compared to Lycan's superior speed, which only matters in the match vs a Froslass, which ultimately comes down to a few 50/50s, and is not what I'd call a common lead matchup.

Please understand, endeavor is huge, and allows archeops to have a chance to utterly cripple one of the opponent's best rock checks, which Lycan doesn't really have any ability to do. This is why it should be ranked higher, as well as its significantly more flexible coverage in non-lead sets.
 
Virizion A+ -> A
Might be a bit controversial. Virizion is beaten by pretty much every single A+ or S mon. Yet it's still A+ rank. Virizion seems to be dropping in usage and I just feel it's not as good as it used to be earlier in the meta game. The meta featuring more fast fires hurts it's ability to be as splashable as before. The rise of whims and some bulky poison types is also pretty bad for it.
 
Incineroar to B
Why did Magmortar rise above Incineroar when Incineroar pulls off the Assault vest set just as good if not better? It should rise for the same reasons Magmortar did, being a check to many special attackers like Vanilluxe, Sceptile, Typhlosion and Vivillion and threatens many cores with good coverage like Cross Chop, Leech Life, Darkest Lariat, Flare Blitz etc. while it can't check Whimsicott as well as Magmortar due to a neutrality to Fairy type moves, it does a better job checking Xatu thanks to Dark STAB And is Also is arguably the best check to Delphox and Sneasel, which is super important, seeing how prominent they are currently in the metagame, especially Delphox. Incineroar also has better overall bulk than Magmortar (95/90/90 > 75/67/95) allowing it to better handle physical attackers and giving it a slight edge in taking special attacks. While Magmortar hits slightly harder and has thunderbolt, Incineroar has great moves like U-Turn, Fake Out, and Leech life for decent recovery. It's many niches and notable differences over Magmortar helps it differentiate itself over Magmortar and I believe it should be the same rank as Magmortar.
 
Incineroar to B
Why did Magmortar rise above Incineroar when Incineroar pulls off the Assault vest set just as good if not better? It should rise for the same reasons Magmortar did, being a check to many special attackers like Vanilluxe, Sceptile, Typhlosion and Vivillion and threatens many cores with good coverage like Cross Chop, Leech Life, Darkest Lariat, Flare Blitz etc. while it can't check Whimsicott as well as Magmortar due to a neutrality to Fairy type moves, it does a better job checking Xatu thanks to Dark STAB And is Also is arguably the best check to Delphox and Sneasel, which is super important, seeing how prominent they are currently in the metagame, especially Delphox. Incineroar also has better overall bulk than Magmortar (95/90/90 > 75/67/95) allowing it to better handle physical attackers and giving it a slight edge in taking special attacks. While Magmortar hits slightly harder and has thunderbolt, Incineroar has great moves like U-Turn, Fake Out, and Leech life for decent recovery. It's many niches and notable differences over Magmortar helps it differentiate itself over Magmortar and I believe it should be the same rank as Magmortar.
I think you have a few things twisted on Incineroar. Firstly, Flare Blitz, Cross Chop, and Leech Life are unmoves. Flare Blitz induces recoil, which, for a mon already super-weak to hazards and possessing zero recovery, is really bad. Idek what Cross Chop would hit, I'm guessing Houndoom and opposing Incineroars, but EQ does that already while also hitting Emboar. Leech Life may seem appealing for its recovery but its pretty ass coverage, it doesn't hit a whole lot that fire/dark stab doesn't already hit, while sacrificing either a STAB, U-Turn, or better coverage in EQ or Fake Out's utility. You're right that it's a worse check to Whims, and I wouldn't consider it a surefire check to Xatu, seeing how Xatu can always just click U-Turn, forcing you to take a bit of chip alongside hazard damage. While it certainly serves as a hard counter to Delphox and Sneasel, I think that's about ALL it does better than any other competition for that role, while lacking some of the positives that make said competition more viable; as a Delphox check, Guzzlord brings impressive offensive presence and huge bulk without having to run vest, and Slowking has recovery, a typing that allows it to also soft-check fighters and psychics, and no rocks weakness; I don't even think Incineroar should be functioning as your primary Sneasel answer, since its vest will just get knocked for a potential offensive grass in the back, but the tier has kinda adapted around Sneasel, particularly in things that set up on it, like Klinklang and Omastar, along with a lot of checks like Emboar, Hitmonlee, and Steelix, so I'm not sure this is a particularly important niche to fill, especially when, again, it could prevent you through accomplishing your other job of checking special attackers. Incineroar brings some positives to the table, but only really functions well on balance per my experience (take it for what it's worth), requires a ton of support to work, and sometimes might still falter because the thing it was supposed to check had coverage for it or hazards were on the field which is a likely scenario in this meta even with Xatu. It's a hard counter to Delphox but is kinda unreliable at checking most other things, which is ultimately why I think the big cat should stay where he is. Keep Incineroar B-.
 
Rotom is an electric type that can also soon block, keeping it's niche using things like z-hex sets and just general colbur sets. Its also a flying resist you can fit on offensive teams which is super nice because they're hard to fit on HO right now.

Typhlosion isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, because it breaks most fire resists in the tier. It 3hkos guzzlord with eruption it's only switching in once, and focus blast is doing around 70%, it 2hkos Miltank with focus blast, with some chip it's able to break cap and jellicent. The mons actually not that bad, and walls aren't why this mom has issues right now. The real reason you're not seeing it played is because of how vulnerable it is to pursuit trapping. Its not hard for your opponent to sack something and go to sneasel. Its much better then D rank.

I think Sawks fine where it is just because sturdy is a bitch for HO to break. I've had to play against CB sturdy a few times, and what I quickly learned is that it's a pain to revenge kill. Its totally fine where it's at and I think more people should explore xatu + strudy sawk teams.

Quziel already made a post explaining why aurosus is still the rank it's at, but rather then just copy him I'm just going to agree with him and refer you to his post on the last page.

And I'm having a hard time understanding your last point. You'd use pinsir and regirock for totally different reasons. You use regirock if you want a fire resist that also doesn't leave you sneasel weak (even tho Miltank is now a thing) and you use pinsir for it's mold breaker SR sets that more times then not is SD rocks mold breaker. I have a hard time understanding why you're comparing them? But if you're looking for why they're different then there you go.
I agree, I should have specified and been more clear. I just wanted to bring up all these mons to see if people agreed with some of it and bring up a discussion around them. But I think you realize I wasnt trying to compare regirock and pinsir, I just brought them up as I thought they were both ranked to high. No need to play dumb to get your point across. The mon I actually wrote a good reasoning for (skuntank), you didnt even bother to adress, which is strange imo.

I strongly disagree with what you write about Typhlosion. How is it good that a mon that struggles alot to come into play as it has to be at 100% to be able to perform its niche, and then it cant even 2hko alot of defensive waters in the tier? It doesnt come close to 2hkoing vap and jelli so I dont know what that is about. I guess with spikes and two layers of spikes sure, but I think considering you make it seem so easy to keep the typhlosion users field free of hazards it would be hypocritical not giving the other side the same courtesy. Sneasel does a little over 30% to typh if it chooses to stay in so if you lose that 50/50, then there goes your sneasel. Not a great argument. Also Doing 70% to miltank on the predicted switch with a choice locked focus blast isnt even that great tbh.

I guess I can take your word for it that sturdy is so great, I have never seen sawk on the ladder so I wouldnt know.

Also rotom is not a flying resist, it gets 2hkoed by both dodrio and scarf braviary on the switch after rocks 100% of the time. Everytime i look through potential flying resist when building, I consider rotom, but ultimately choose not not to use it for that excact reason. Saying that rotom is an electric type that can spinblock makes it seem like that combination is great which is fair, but you dont write any reasoning for why ghost/elactric is such a terrific type combination. There are other spinblockers in the tier after all.
 
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I strongly disagree with what you write about Typhlosion. How is it good that a mon that struggles alot to come into play as it has to be at 100% to be able to perform its niche, and then it cant even 2hko alot of defensive waters in the tier? You just chose to not talk about vaporeon and slowking for the convenience of it, and brought up guzzlord instead for some reason. Doing 70% to miltank on the predicted switch with a choice locked focus blast isnt even that great tbh.
The reason Guzz and Miltank were brought up was because they're some of the most favored Fire resists right now. Miltank counters or checks at worst every other specially attacking Fire type, and its Ice resist as well makes it fairly splashable on teams that need a check to these types. Having an almost surefire (unboosted) way to 2HKO it is incredibly nice for a Fire mon. Guzzlord exemplifies this to an even larger extent, hard countering Houndoom and non D-Gleam variants of Delphox. Being able to 3HKO it with its STAB option and 2HKO (even OHKO with some hazards) it without a STAB is an amazing thing for a Fire type to be able to do. And let's take a look at some of those Waters you mentioned, as well as more Fire resists:

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 204-241 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Druddigon: 176-207 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 200-236 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

And if it's a hazard stack team, even the bulkiest waters aren't safe:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 149-176 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 155-183 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, you need rocks off the field to effectively use Typhlosion, but that's why it's where it is: it can break, but it needs team support. Simple as that. Like Sir Kay said, it's just super vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, which is a reason why sometimes isn't can't consistently do it's job, but it shouldn't drop at all, it's an incredible breaker in the right circumstances.

e: hazards were meant to exemplify chip damage, not having hazards as a whole. it can break non-AV Slowking sets and Jelli with some damage already on them
 
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The reason Guzz and Miltank were brought up was because they're some of the most favored Fire resists right now. Miltank counters or checks at worst every other specially attacking Fire type, and its Ice resist as well makes it fairly splashable on teams that need a check to these types. Having an almost surefire (unboosted) way to 2HKO it is incredibly nice for a Fire mon. Guzzlord exemplifies this to an even larger extent, hard countering Houndoom and non D-Gleam variants of Delphox. Being able to 3HKO it with its STAB option and 2HKO (even OHKO with some hazards) it without a STAB is an amazing thing for a Fire type to be able to do. And let's take a look at some of those Waters you mentioned, as well as more Fire resists:

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 204-241 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Druddigon: 176-207 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 200-236 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

And if it's a hazard stack team, even the bulkiest waters aren't safe:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 149-176 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 155-183 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, you need rocks off the field to effectively use Typhlosion, but that's why it's where it is: it can break, but it needs team support. Simple as that. Like Sir Kay said, it's just super vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, which is a reason why sometimes isn't can't consistently do it's job, but it shouldn't drop at all, it's an incredible breaker in the right circumstances.
I edited my post btw. So i answer some of what you write here, but ill say it again. i think it is extremely hypocritical in these calcs to give the typhlosion user SR and one layer of spikes while at the same time denying the opponent rocks. Especially when there are things like Mold breaker druddigon and offensive garbodor. Having a xatu doesnt guarantee you no rocks. Its just way too convenient. And if you decide to use a defogger like golbat then you have no case for arguing hazards on the opponent side of the field is a realistic scenario. And yes there are rapid spinners, but they are very unreliable. I agree that slowbro and seismitoad arent switch ins, but they arent switch ins to delphox either. When people prepare for delphox by using vaporeon or slowking for example they prepare for typhlosion too meaning typhlosion counters are quite common. And also in in your calc you dont give slowking AV? Are you doing that on purpose hoping ppl wont notice? Also guzzlord is not a favoured fire resist, d-gleam delphox is very common and you cant rely on guzz to check that and it obviously get destroyed by emboar, and also fight-z magmortar (although not common). It only counters houndoom reliably. And ill say it again, doing 70% to miltank on a PREDICTED choice locked focus blast (misses alot) is not that great. I think you guys are giving tha typhlosion user way too many constructed advantages like multiple hazards and upperhand in the prediction game.
 
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cyanize

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Echoing what ceal said on the subject of Magmortar v Incineroar, and also Magmortar rose moreso on the merit of its Fightinium Z set which is terrifying for any sort of balance or bulky offense teams to face, and is not a role that it's competing with Incineroar in at all. Furthermore, even with Assault Vest sets, Magmortar is much more threatening offensively than Incineroar will ever be, which gives it more value in a match than coming into Delphox then immediately clicking U-turn because it doesn't scare anything and is scared out so easily itself. I will admit that Incineroar gets a bit more flak than it deserves, as being a hard stop to Delphox, Houndoom, and Vanilluxe in one slot is no small feat, but I feel it has too many weaknesses to rise on this one merit.
Honestly Magmortar should probably rise to B+, Fightinium Z is absolutely disgusting to face and gets kills with ridiculous ease while simultaneously having pretty decent defensive value, and AV is still pretty neat for switching into Whimsi like 80 thousand times and simultaneously being a pretty decent breaker.

So that this post isn't devoid of substance, I have a few nominations of my own to make.

to A: Toxicroak is seriously so threatening right now. Between the popularity of Seismitoad, various Poisons, and the decrease of use in Golbat, Toxicroak is finding more setup opportunities than ever and terrorizes far more teams quite handily. Modest NP also has the cool ability to revenge rising star Klinklang better than any other unboosted mon in the tier, which is quite nice as an emergency button. (also it's one of the few things that walls sd rott, which is also quite devastating atm and deserves a imo but i'll hold off on that)

to B: Yeah, I know this just fell, but people are discovering that Imprison to keep Xatu from leaving the field is a baller tech that lets Uxie get trappers in for free, and Uxie's own access to U-turn makes it a scary asset to teams centered around strong breakers. Basically, I feel it offers more to the average team than was previously discovered, and should warrant a rise to reflect that.

Also supporting Miltank to A- (fantastic mon, walls so much shit atm and stoss + toxic is annoying as hell, only real downside is being blocked by xatu), Cryo to A- (best spinner in the tier, checks damn near every neutral special attacker, just all around solid), Scyther to B (great scarf glue, checks a whole bunch of stuff and can clean teams exceptionally well), and unranking Lycanroc and Eelektross.
 

Sir Kay

Valor to me.
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Just a really small post to reflect some thoughts.


B --> B+/A-

This things honestly the best wall breaker in the entire tier. With coverage enough to break past every fighting resist in the tier with ease, backed by an insanely powerful Bullet Punch to counteract the things that normally come in to revenge kill psychic/fighting types like Whims and Sneasel, and you have yourself a huge threat in todays meta. Medicham blows past any defensive cores you throw at it without so much as a second thought. This thing is super under rated right now.


A --> A+


Not a lot to say about this mon that people don't already know. Its the most consistent rocker in the tier thanks to mold breaker, with a typing that lets it have a lot of both offensive and defensive uses. And the rough skin sets are probably the best abusers of rocky helmet in the entire tier. This mons showing through as one of the corner stones in both offensive and balance teams and I think its ranking should reflect its widespread popularity and effectiveness.
 
Incineroar to B
Why did Magmortar rise above Incineroar when Incineroar pulls off the Assault vest set just as good if not better? It should rise for the same reasons Magmortar did, being a check to many special attackers like Vanilluxe, Sceptile, Typhlosion and Vivillion and threatens many cores with good coverage like Cross Chop, Leech Life, Darkest Lariat, Flare Blitz etc. while it can't check Whimsicott as well as Magmortar due to a neutrality to Fairy type moves, it does a better job checking Xatu thanks to Dark STAB And is Also is arguably the best check to Delphox and Sneasel, which is super important, seeing how prominent they are currently in the metagame, especially Delphox. Incineroar also has better overall bulk than Magmortar (95/90/90 > 75/67/95) allowing it to better handle physical attackers and giving it a slight edge in taking special attacks. While Magmortar hits slightly harder and has thunderbolt, Incineroar has great moves like U-Turn, Fake Out, and Leech life for decent recovery. It's many niches and notable differences over Magmortar helps it differentiate itself over Magmortar and I believe it should be the same rank as Magmortar.
Idk about where tony the tiger should be at rn, but popularity of Whimsicott (like you said) is probs a large factor for mag's rise, and mag isnt as one dimensional as Incineroar either, as it can perform offensively pretty well. More comp. from Hariyama now to bc hariyama is more bulky w/ assault vest so its typically better Vanilluxe check. Incineroar is still a good glue mon overall though thanks to nice bulk and ability to check big threats like Delphox so its not too deserving of B but fine where it is. Increase in popularity of Delphox and Xatu may potentially give reason for rise though. (Incineroar is far better delphox check than guzz bc dazzling gleam is always there) Oh yeah Incineroar can also act as last minute check to klingklang if needed
 
Articuno carves out a niche on stall teams being a secondary hazard remover (covering almost every rocker in tandem with Xatu) and having access to Heal Bell while being able to - yes - pressure stall Pokemon like Vanilluxe. Articuno has seen some tourplay aswell recently where it did a good job. I also don't think the Agility + Flyinium Z has gotten any worse since after a boost it's able to threaten most of the Pokemon ranked in the As.
Can't agree with this one. As someone testing out stall, the hazard game is an impossible one to play, and if anything you are crippling yourself more with cuno + defogger than with just one defogger. First of all, xatu as a partner is highly debatable, because its very easy to force out with most stealth rockers, and losing to sneasel is a huge deal when trapping is one of the best forms of hazard control (it's also why i dont support a sneasel drop). Cuno is incredibly pressured when it takes damage from hazards, and with xatu it will not be hard to let stealth rocks slip past you. Taking druddigon for instance, an offensive set will absolutely crush xatu, even without mold breaker. There are also like 3 mold breakers with rocks that are viable in the tier. Even rockers like steelix have a relatively easy time pressuring xatu. Anyway, this all culminates into articuno inevitably being faced with stealth rocks, and honestly after taking half damage, it is incredibly easy to wear down, and checks nothing, barely even checks vanilluxe. Heal bell alone barely makes this thing good, but as a specially defensive pokemon audino is better, and pressure would only be worth justifying against voltturn builds, yet the mon obviously cant deal with volt switch.

This is just one of those noms that in a vacuum makes sense, yet looking at the context of a real stall game, it will never be good. I would advocate for a sub-roost or offensive set before a defensive one, which honestly has merit enough to be in C- or whatever, but I honestly think the stall argument doesn't work, and this thing is hanging on by a thread with niche sets. Actually I take it all back, a defog set is enough to rank it because defoggers in this tier suck, basically. But i still dont like the stall argument. It's also still a really bad fogger.

This is a decent enough segway into an important factor: Hazard control.

Sneasel: To remain in A+

Sneasel still excels at one thing: trapping. This alone is honestly good enough to the point where it opens the flood gates for tons of other pokemon, hence my upcoming noms. No other pokemon can prove itself good against offense, with ice shard + speed, and good against defense, with knock off, while all in all proving itself to inadvertently be the greatest support mon in the tier, even without status moves. Pursuit trapping + knock off spam is honestly the first thing I and most people think about when we start building, and this just shows the impact on the meta sneasel has. In spite of any meta changes that occur, it continues to be the swiss army knife of NU, and its A+ perfectly reflects that.

Masquerain: Rank

This obviously derives from the previous thing, but essentially a webs setter with offensive presence is somewhat of a niche. You dont have to let garbodor setup 3 layers of spikes as you do with shuckle. With ice beam, xatu's capability of stopping webs is questionable.

Garbodor: Rise

This has the same amount of sets that most S rank mons do, which is insane. You can run so many different things that all create a melting pot of disaster for teams who dont prepare for it. It pressures xatu too, which means you dont even need to use sneasel. It's probably the second thing i think about when making my teams.

Lurantis: ???

On stall, after some tests, it is decent but has no offensive presense because leaf storm is pretty easy to switch into (maybe you could use another move idk). On a more balanced team, it might serve to be a good defogger, which my god this tier has none of, so maybe it should rise.


Seperate from hazard control...

Samurott: Remain

A mon that can pressure both offense and defense is pretty huge, as well as its ability to run surprising sets. With taunt you dont even need to setup and can comfotably beat pyuku, possibly even with sub grass knot. This is still a great pokemon.

Medicham: Rise

This is very hard to check. Even with slowbro, which is honestly really good rn because it is a wincon for stall, well it still cant really beat medicham. Although this is very one dimensional, something that can break though virtually anything doesnt need to be extravagant.

Edit: Cinccino to rise to about B. B- is questionable for a mon that is really fast, beats sash leads, and overall has a lot of offensive pressure to the point where stall teams have to run dedicated checks.

There's honestly too much else to talk about.
 
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Can't agree with this one. As someone testing out stall, the hazard game is an impossible one to play, and if anything you are crippling yourself more with cuno + defogger than with just one defogger. First of all, xatu as a partner is highly debatable, because its very easy to force out with most stealth rockers, and losing to sneasel is a huge deal when trapping is one of the best forms of hazard control (it's also why i dont support a sneasel drop). Cuno is incredibly pressured when it takes damage from hazards, and with xatu it will not be hard to let stealth rocks slip past you. Taking druddigon for instance, an offensive set will absolutely crush xatu, even without mold breaker. There are also like 3 mold breakers with rocks that are viable in the tier. Even rockers like steelix have a relatively easy time pressuring xatu. Anyway, this all culminates into articuno inevitably being faced with stealth rocks, and honestly after taking half damage, it is incredibly easy to wear down, and checks nothing, barely even checks vanilluxe. Heal bell alone barely makes this thing good, but as a specially defensive pokemon audino is better, and pressure would only be worth justifying against voltturn builds, yet the mon obviously cant deal with volt switch.

This is just one of those noms that in a vacuum makes sense, yet looking at the context of a real stall game, it will never be good. I would advocate for a sub-roost or offensive set before a defensive one, which honestly has merit enough to be in C- or whatever, but I honestly think the stall argument doesn't work, and this thing is hanging on by a thread with niche sets. Actually I take it all back, a defog set is enough to rank it because defoggers in this tier suck, basically. But i still dont like the stall argument. It's also still a really bad fogger.
I specifically said in my post that Articuno beats most hazard setters when paired with Xatu. Xatu runs Protect on stall so the only Sneasel that beats it is SD Sneasel which isn't common at all. Articuno also beats Druddigon, the only relevant Mold Breaker mon in the tier. Articuno running Heal Bell allows you to run 2 'attacking' moves on Mega Audino instead of just Knock Off so now it can run something like Toxic or Flamethrower etc. improving your match up. The other NU Heal Bellers don't add something to a stall team (Pyukumuku over Vaporeon, Audino over Aromatisse, Uxie doesn't have reliable recovery,...). You could argue running Clefairy but it's Eviolite-dependant, Miltank can run Heal Bell but Type Null generally covers its defensive attributes and risks losing to Xatu. Articuno 1v1s and beats Vanilluxe cause you just Roost on it and with Pressure it can only fire off 4 Blizzards. Cuno is also able to check stuff like Sceptile w/o HP Rock, Whimsicott, Guzzlord, and bulkier mons like Xatu, Vileplume, and Slowking.

Here's a replay from Trickings Grand Slam semifinal showcasing Articunos usefulness on stall: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-327420
Articuno is able to switch in multiple times, even when rocks are up, and support the team.
 

Kiyo

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Hey guys I know I'm a day late, but here's the final VR update before USUM. There won't be a new VR thread for a few days while we all figure out what's good and what's not in the new metagame. If you find something good, please go talk about it in the NP: thread and share your successes (or failures) so that we can all learn together and better ourselves.

Final note, Earth is now a member of the VR Council. Feel free to congratulate him if you see him around.

Code:
Drops:
Eelektross: C- > UR
Ambipom: C- > UR
Poliwrath: C- > UR
Mudsdale: C > UR
Lycanroc: C > UR
Gourgeist-XL: C+ > C
Persian-Alola: C+ > UR
Uxie: B- > C+
Archeops: B- > C+
Lilligant: B > B-
Regirock: B- > C+
Aromatisse: C+ > C
Typhlosion: B > B-
Incineroar: B- > C

Rises:
Masquerain: UR > C-
Klinklang: B+ > A-
Type-Null: C > B
Probopass: C > C+
Lurantis: C- > C
Absol: C > C+
Garbodor: A- > A
Medicham: B > B+
Druddigon: A > A+
I don't feel the need to post a big paragraph of reasonings for these, but if you have a question on something in particular feel free to approach me or another member of the VR Council and we'll do our best to answer.
 
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