OU Offense

[The Grand Babido]

Let's discuss offensive teams in this tier.

Some food for thought:

- Aside from physical heavy offense, why hasn't DP OU offense been "solved" like other generations?
- Share your Spikes offense teams - why don't we see many teams hazard stacking turn 1?
- How do you beat Jirachi?
- How can we better take advantage of defensive teams favouring longevity over durability?
- What type stacking have you experimented with (not including water)?
- Does a template special offense team exist? What does it look like?

 

[cherryb0ng]

Let's discuss offensive teams in this tier.

Some food for thought:

- Aside from physical heavy offense, why hasn't DP OU offense been "solved" like other generations?
- Share your Spikes offense teams - why don't we see many teams hazard stacking turn 1?
- How do you beat Jirachi?
- How can we better take advantage of defensive teams favouring longevity over durability?
- What type stacking have you experimented with (not including water)?
- Does a template special offense team exist? What does it look like?

I have little-to-no experience in dpp ou but I think a solid team with sand immune + spikes immune mons. Having at least 4 pokemon with a form of recovery is vital for defensive teams (this may include in DPP's case recovering with leftovers and using protect).

 

[The Grand Babido]

Here's some of my thoughts and a team. Been laddering a little the last week due to lockdown.

I think offense is always the strongest style in this tier - especially in a best of 1 setting where you can really take advantage of the balance of power/lack of team preview to create situations that your opponent can't respond to. However, I think it is still pretty unexplored/unsolved compared to other generations, where template offense teams find a lot of success even against opponents with perfect information.

I wanted to try "solve" Froslass offense. Froslass is pretty okay Spiking turn 1 and has a lot of other utility (twave, spinblocking, forcing choice lock mons). Here are the guys:

Froslass team

A few things this team has achieved:

- Extremely luck resistant (only two moves below 100% accuracy plus always being on the front foot and having many moves with great secondary effects).
- Super Jirachi resistant (number one goal of this team actually - to ensure a Jirachi can't snowball it).
- Favourable match-up against Clefable builds provided Swampert can be chipped early.
- Currently first on the showdown ladder with 90% GXE (been up against a lot of noobs to be fair / what is a good GXE in DP anyway?).

Some general notes:

- Thunder Wave is clicked first most of the time - speed control (particularly to facilitate Metagross rocking) is important and it can go a long way against some of Froslass' common switches. Icy Wind is a secondary Thunder Wave which can be clicked against Azelf, Aerodactyl and sash users.
- Metagross was chosen for SR specifically for its match ups against Jirachi, Clefable and Starmie. ThunderPunch is chosen to pressure Skarmory and Starmie. Jirachi needs both Wish and Fire Punch to beat this guy even without Earthquake.
- I think DD Tar is the best sweeper in the tier, probably by a long way. Sandwiching him between Gyarados and Dragonite sweep attempts makes set up extremely easy as well.
- Double-Edge and Substitute are both super useful on Gyarados. Double-Edge is his best second move and Substitute is great helping with some unfavourable match ups (e.g. lead Metagross). This was the last guy I settled on - was trying to find something with a bit more immediate power, but he's so strong after a boost, especially early in the game. I need the resistances too.
- Dragonite is usually seen last and usually sets up on some choice-locked fighting/earth move. Breloom switch.
- Copycat Lucario has a lot of applications. The most reliable use is Copycat boom if you have a numerical advantage (or even a 2-2 depending on Tar/Gyara health). My favourite is +1 Gyarados against Skarmory with a couple of layers down, knowing that if I don't flinch/crit then there is a ~33% chance Lucario is coming in on the Whirlwind and sweeping with a reverse phase. I tried build a U-turn component into this team as well, but this team can't afford to waste any time. Lucario really takes advantage of the Spikes anyway and Gyarados/Metagross are super reliable at revealing the fight resists early game to allow for a CC clean.

- I tried to focus on sequencing/patterns of play and building a team that makes moves over multiple turns if that makes sense. These five guys really take advantage of their resistances and redundancies so well, and we've seen them so often on other builds (e.g screens offense).
- I'm glad to have finally ironed this out as I have had ~90% of the team in my head for a while.

Where this team could be improved:

- Skarmory and Rotom are annoying, but the redundancies against these two often work in my favour as these guys become a little too eager to come out early.
- Lack of immediate fire power (70% to Swampert is my barometer) to force out annoying Pokemon without resorting to Explosion. I possibly need a Life Orb somewhere.
- Metagross is a bit slow for setting Stealth Rock (Garchomp would be nice here).
- Do I get more mileage by just dropping Froslass for Azelf and changing Metagross (possibly to a mixed Jirachi)? Weirdly, I think there could be room for a Specs Latias somewhere too.

badabing - PM me if you're lurking

 

[BKC]

- Aside from physical heavy offense, why hasn't DP OU offense been "solved" like other generations?

I'd argue GSC/ADV/BW/ORAS are similarly "solved" by this definition since they have numerous, viable types and subtypes of offense which are constantly being tweaked in the little details, just like in DPP.

As far as physical HO goes, Excal's team is excellent, but I don't know if I agree with the implication that it has "solved" the playstyle beyond all possible alternatives. There are plenty of other ways to quickly bombard the opponent with physical powerhouses, with Metagross, CB Azelf and fast SR Tar all starting games off effectively and aggressively.

(Side note but this is why I generally don't like the term "solved" in relation to Pokemon lol)

Share your Spikes offense teams - why don't we see many teams hazard stacking turn 1?

We do see them sometimes, and they are quite strong. The main reasons you don't see them regularly is because you can't reliably Spike on Azelf (or offensive Jirachi if you're using Roserade) and because of the excellent midgame utility Rose/Skarm bring to the table. Actually being able to switch into opposing moves is amazing so you don't have to sacrifice right away, which can be too big a price to pay just to get a free switch to another threat that might not pay off, since hazards aren't enough to push most stuff over the edge right away given how hazard resilient the tier has become. Having a defensive Poke to switch to doesn't mean you're not putting on a ton of offensive pressure with your other Pokes, either (e.g. MixGon + Lucario is really strong alongside your garden variety defensive Skarm).

How do you beat Jirachi?

For teams that aren't adopting a no-switch policy, everything's gotta threaten it somehow. Otherwise, there must be longevity against Iron Head/status in sand, and of course, there still needs to be pressure thrown at it from every angle. Besides generally running big guns like Heatran and Metagross that threaten the opposing team without being stopped by Rachi, there's also tweaking your Pokes that Rachi can otherwise stop - there's a reason pretty much every Gengar runs Wisp, and why Lum is so effective on your own offensive Rachi, be it mixed or CM. Sub on stuff - Gyara, Nite, Cune, Rachi - is really good, too.

How can we better take advantage of defensive teams favouring longevity over durability?

Longevity of your own even on all-out stuff, i.e. not instantly being neutralized by Protect/status. Less Life Orb, more Lum. Also, several of the more threatening Pokes to these teams are sand-immune things - Heatran and Empoleon stand out in particular.

What type stacking have you experimented with (not including water)?

Latias + Flygon exert a ton of offensive pressure with their Dragon STABs and can even abuse each others' weaknesses (Flygon threatens the Ttar/Jirachi that would come in on Latias, while Lati is great against Waters that annoy Gon), while of course providing great Speed and many valuable resists. Lots of flexibility in their sets, too, and though they don't need Spikes they are particularly ferocious with them.

Gengar + Rotom are a fierce offensive combination on Spikes teams - plenty of great resists, lots of Speed, difficult to take advantage of or even slow down without taking a huge hit. They can easily break the opponent's defenses and clean up lategame.

Does a template special offense team exist? What does it look like?

The old frameworks of Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes offense are still commonly used and successful today, and of course are seeing more and more cool stuff (like the aforementioned dual Ghost combo) in addition to traditional weapons like Agility Empoleon. The classic Heatran + CMers offenses are still scary even without extra hazard support, though they're also great with it. We're seeing more Metagross on specially offensive stuff to help with wallbreaking and physical defense.

I don't think there's one definitive set of six Pokemon that stands above the rest in this regard, nor do I think that is particularly significant regarding the viability of specially offensive teams as a whole, given how much room for innovation they have and how successful its many variants continue to be.

 

[afterburn]

Here's some of my thoughts and a team. Been laddering a little the last week due to lockdown.

I think offense is always the strongest style in this tier - especially in a best of 1 setting where you can really take advantage of the balance of power/lack of team preview to create situations that your opponent can't respond to. However, I think it is still pretty unexplored/unsolved compared to other generations, where template offense teams find a lot of success even against opponents with perfect information.

I wanted to try "solve" Froslass offense. Froslass is pretty okay Spiking turn 1 and has a lot of other utility (twave, spinblocking, forcing choice lock mons). Here are the guys:

Froslass team
View attachment 369203View attachment 369195View attachment 369192View attachment 369193View attachment 369194View attachment 369196

A few things this team has achieved:

- Extremely luck resistant (only two moves below 100% accuracy plus always being on the front foot and having many moves with great secondary effects).
- Super Jirachi resistant (number one goal of this team actually - to ensure a Jirachi can't snowball it).
- Favourable match-up against Clefable builds provided Swampert can be chipped early.
- Currently first on the showdown ladder with 90% GXE (been up against a lot of noobs to be fair / what is a good GXE in DP anyway?).

Some general notes:

- Thunder Wave is clicked first most of the time - speed control (particularly to facilitate Metagross rocking) is important and it can go a long way against some of Froslass' common switches. Icy Wind is a secondary Thunder Wave which can be clicked against Azelf, Aerodactyl and sash users.
- Metagross was chosen for SR specifically for its match ups against Jirachi, Clefable and Starmie. ThunderPunch is chosen to pressure Skarmory and Starmie. Jirachi needs both Wish and Fire Punch to beat this guy even without Earthquake.
- I think DD Tar is the best sweeper in the tier, probably by a long way. Sandwiching him between Gyarados and Dragonite sweep attempts makes set up extremely easy as well.
- Double-Edge and Substitute are both super useful on Gyarados. Double-Edge is his best second move and Substitute is great helping with some unfavourable match ups (e.g. lead Metagross). This was the last guy I settled on - was trying to find something with a bit more immediate power, but he's so strong after a boost, especially early in the game. I need the resistances too.
- Dragonite is usually seen last and usually sets up on some choice-locked fighting/earth move. Breloom switch.
- Copycat Lucario has a lot of applications. The most reliable use is Copycat boom if you have a numerical advantage (or even a 2-2 depending on Tar/Gyara health). My favourite is +1 Gyarados against Skarmory with a couple of layers down, knowing that if I don't flinch/crit then there is a ~33% chance Lucario is coming in on the Whirlwind and sweeping with a reverse phase. I tried build a U-turn component into this team as well, but this team can't afford to waste any time. Lucario really takes advantage of the Spikes anyway and Gyarados/Metagross are super reliable at revealing the fight resists early game to allow for a CC clean.

- I tried to focus on sequencing/patterns of play and building a team that makes moves over multiple turns if that makes sense. These five guys really take advantage of their resistances and redundancies so well, and we've seen them so often on other builds (e.g screens offense).
- I'm glad to have finally ironed this out as I have had ~90% of the team in my head for a while.

Where this team could be improved:

- Skarmory and Rotom are annoying, but the redundancies against these two often work in my favour as these guys become a little too eager to come out early.
- Lack of immediate fire power (70% to Swampert is my barometer) to force out annoying Pokemon without resorting to Explosion. I possibly need a Life Orb somewhere.
- Metagross is a bit slow for setting Stealth Rock (Garchomp would be nice here).
- Do I get more mileage by just dropping Froslass for Azelf and changing Metagross (possibly to a mixed Jirachi)? Weirdly, I think there could be room for a Specs Latias somewhere too.

badabing - PM me if you're lurking

Yep, first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP was Froslass offense. There’s plenty of teams that get caught off guard by Lass, and most of the time you can get one layer down at the very least.

I’ve used a rain with Froslass lead. Helps overpower Loom and Jirachi which are ofc notorious for disrupting momentum once in.

 

[Oatmon]

Let's discuss offensive teams in this tier.

Some food for thought:
- Aside from physical heavy offense, why hasn't DP OU offense been "solved" like other generations?

I think one of the main reasons it hasn't been "solved" like other generations is because of the frequency of bans and unbans in the tier. Latias was reintroduced, which drastically altered the basic structure of most teams. Baton pass was banned, removing certain playstyles from the game, and then dugtrio was banned, allowing already dominent threats such as jirachi, breloom, and tyranitar to play more freely.

The meta hasn't had enough time to settle for everything to be "solved" as it were yet.

 

[Smurf.]

neat team bab - good to see you've stopped trying to iron flinch people to death.

jokes aside i'd swap gyarados to lead slot with CB, occa meta mash / boom / sr / bullet punch and give froslass a choice scarf 252 satk with ib/sball/spikes/trick

feel i get more utility out of froslass with some surprise revenge kills, spin blocking, tricking fat teams etc. while still getting ample spikes against them. you can also run taunt over one of the non-spike moves so you can block the skarm roost. if they whirlwind to either lass or lucario their walling days are over.

CB gyara gives more immediate power also, and puts more pressure on skarm, lures rotom

 

[Jeong]

It had been a while since I played and I wanted to try this strategy on an offensive team as well but with some small changes. I like it because it is something different from what is usually seen. Froslass may not be a good lead / mon but with the necessary support he can deliver. I've always liked to play offensively so I think this team is great. In addition, it is well thought out, has a good structure and synergy.


☆SB Fartz: "what a cheap unbelievably gay tactic".

Honestly, I was surprised by that response from my opponent in a simple ladder match. Apparently, the Copycat = Whirl with Lucario annoyed him. I do not understand that reaction, it seems to me a strategy as viable as any other. I can understand making it a bit annoying, but there are many variants to override this. Anyway, he was pressured with DD ttar, so sooner or later in one of the Whirl with Skarm Lucario would come out.

Here he left my version:
https://pokepast.es/06852f23aa9ae705

Basically I've only swapped some sets and Latias for Nite. I've also thought of rachi > gross, but I like it that way. EBelt lati I think is a good fit, as it can surprise with Gnot and remove things like Star, pert/hippo that can be a problem for steels luc/gross. Watch out for DD Gyara Jolly wtf. This is a bit random but it turns out to be a threat as it outspeeds Scarf luc lol. Some panic if they don't strike first. Scarf Rotom is also another threat to watch out for. A gross with Iron Ball is an interesting option.

In summary, I have loved the short experience using this great team but unfortunately even this does not seem to motivate me to return.