"Oh, were those your Hazards?" (BW2 OU)

[Itchni]

I figured this is where this analysis should go, Move it to OU if thats where this belongs

With the release of BW2 I have decided to make a new team that uses the new goodies, Therian form Landorus and DD outrage moxie salamence. While other teams focus on trying to control the weather, this team completely ignores weather and simply attempts to allow some of the best sweepers that hate rocks a chance to shine.

Goals:
Control the Hazard game to make the best use of 3 of the best mons crippled by rocks
Ignore Weather Completely
Break through the enemy walls with punishing setup sweepers
Ultimately sweep with Salamence

Highlights:
2 spinners makes switching pain free, and my team promotes plenty of switching
2 drag emulates 4 drag 2 mag well enough for my purposes, If dragonite can get 2 dd's off its game over, because salamence will rip apart the team after dragonite has weakened their counter(s)
bulky volcarona is just crazy good. she takes care of steels(minus heatran) that threaten the team.
3 setup sweepers punish stall

Team at a glance:

Act 1 The Spinners

Forretress@Leftovers
Sturdy Relaxed(+Def -Spe)
252 HP/176 Def/80 SpD (0 Speed IV)
*Spikes
*Rapid Spin
*Gyro Ball
*Stealth Rocks
My first spinner and my hazard layer. Forretress is my favorite pokemon, but unfortunately he really isn't the best mon out there. He does have a nice niche though that he can come into many choiced physical attacks and outraging dragons and set up lots and lots of field hazards. It's good ferrothorn never got Rapid Spin or forretress would be completely outclassed.

Starmie@Choice Specs
Natural Cure Timid(+Spe/-Atk)
252 SpA/4 SpD/ 252 Spe
*Hydro Pump
*Thunderbolt
*Ice Beam
*Rapid Spin
My second Spinner. My aim with my spinners is that they should also be able to fill another role if they don't spin and specs starmie does just that. A fantastic revenge killer. Spin on a specs set can get you into trouble sometimes, but this can be alleviated with good prediction skills. The extra power on hydro pump is necessary on starmie. I wanted to try and fit trick onto this thing But starmie really needs the coverage boltbeam provides.

Having two spinners is necessary for it to be reliable enough. Starmie and Forry complement each other well, taking many super effective attacks aimed at eachother, and if they can spin, get rocks up and get a kill they have done their job very very well.

Act 2 The Support Sweepers

Volcarona@Leftovers
Flame Body Bold (+Def -Atk)
240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spe
*Quiver Dance
*Fiery Dance
*Bug Buzz
*Roost
This is just crazy good when you have control over rocks. Although she does have problems with rain when it comes in, its not too bad now that she has roost. And anyways, the goal of the team isn't for her to sweep (although it does happen quite a lot). My team has 3 weaknesses to ice and not only does Volcarona handle ice attacks but she actually loves them. Most carriers of ice attacks are setup fodder for her (bulky waters in particular) or choiced which gives her a free setup turn.

Landorus-Therian@Choice Scarf
Intimidate Jolly(+Spe -SpA)
*Earthquake
*Stone Edge
*U-turn
*Hammer Arm
Ok I lied. THIS is my new favorite pokemon. Therian form Landorus is situational over regular Landorus. If you are not using sandstorm then therian form is better. If you are double dancing Therian form is better. One downfall of using therian form landorus is that you can't outspeed shell smash cloyster. Which is unfortunate because he destroys my team outside of forry.

This guy is designed around being able to come in and out more than regular landorus. With better physical bulk due to intimidate and 2 immunities he finds many chances to come in and either scout with u-turn or hit with the famous Edgequake combo.

Act 3 The Dragons

Dragonite@Leftovers
Multiscale Adamant(+Atk -SpA)
252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spe
*Dragon Dance
*Dragon Claw
*Fire Punch
*Roost
This is why this team works. Without stealth rocks dragonite provides me with a wall, a setup sweeper, and a wall breaker. He is THE most broken pokemon without stealth rocks. He isn't a big fan of sandstorm but can deal with it.

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Moxie Naughty (+Atk -SpD)
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
*Dragon Dance
*Outrage
*Earthquake
*Fire Blast
This is scary. Moxie. Dragon Dance. Outrage. Salamence. Stand in awe of the menace. He comes in after dragonite's rampage and picks up right after him. Lum berry serves a dual use in blocking toxic, burn and paralyze or stopping confusion from outrage. Saying anymore would be an insult to your intelligence.

Goals:
Control the Hazard game to make the best use of 3 of the best mons crippled by rocks
My spinners are very reliable, while also not hindering the team if they are not needed for spinning.
Ignore Weather Completely
Rain and Sun can both be used by my team well. Sand is only a very slight hinderance
Break through the enemy walls with punishing setup sweepers
Volcarona and Dragonite Both target different counters of salamence. They are highly reliable and can both sweep if the need arises
Ultimately sweep with Salamence
This Happens. A lot.

Shell Smash cloyster is my biggest enemy. I have to sacrifice something to allow forry free entry to take care of it. I am also fairly vulnerable to enemy dragon dance dragons, i can deal with them but if they are running anything near mine (such as double dance kingdra/ddmence) I'm done for. If this becomes more popular I may be forced to switch to scarf flygon.

Comments/Questions/Concerns/Suggestions are all welcomed! Thank you for reading my RMT :D

 

[TrollFreak]

Congratz on the 1st BW2 RMT!

Also, if your team has trouble with Cloyster, try Jirachi > Forry. This way, you keep a steel type, keep rocks, wish support, and Starmie can still Rapid Spin, so you don't lose that either.


Jirachi@Leftovers | Serene Grace
Imprish Nature | 240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
Stealth Rock / Body Slam / Iron Head / Wish

Good Luck

 

[Itchni]

Wow, I never thought of using Jirachi, and it does really compliment my team well. If I find that cloyster usage goes up with the coming changes I will definitely use it.

Thank you very much for the suggestion.

 

[asterat]

2 spinners seems like overkill. Maybe try a Rotom-W over starmie?
You could run specs or scarf with Hydro Pump/Volt Switch/Trick/HP grass or ice

 

[Itchni]

2 spinners seems like overkill. Maybe try a Rotom-W over starmie?
You could run specs or scarf with Hydro Pump/Volt Switch/Trick/HP grass or ice

The thing about this team is that when people think about volcarona or dragonite counters they just think "hmm I have stealth rocks and i can play around them so they won't be a problem" Spinning those rocks are very very important for my team and with 2 very different spinners spinning becomes a reliable thing I can do in 99% of my matches. They both aren't dead weight either.

Dragonite and Volcarona are both very very broken without stealth rocks and teams goal is to abuse that.

Thank you for the suggestion though. i'm sure it would work on a standard team composition.

 

[Twins]

Mamoswine massacres half of your team, but with some smart switching (which I think you should be able to do), you can work around it.

And yeah, Cloyster is even more of a threat because it goes through those three pokemon, as well as the rest of the team, besides Forretress, which can easily be disposed of.

Pretty good team overall though, I'm loving the Landorus-T, and it has a lot of offensive presence with the double dragons and choice users.

 

[Itchni]

I've been doing some testing with starmie. I have noticed that I have rarely been using t-bolt due to the fact that It's a pretty bad move on choice starmie because ice beam covers most flying types, and hydro pump does similar damage under rain to water types. Jellicent is hindered by trick choice specs as is starmie's worst nemesis ferrothorn. Losing specs is kinda bad for starmie though so its really a mixed bag.

Cloyster usage has really petered out while mamoswine usage has increased. This team is really really strong and can usually win even with 1 hard to counter pokemon for my team, But if theres 2 hard to topple walls on their team I could be in for a rough ride.

All in all after much testing I really like this team. It's reliable against all team types. I actually kinda regret posting this thing because I'd really like to use it in some upcoming tournaments. Oh well.

 

[DaveScottMustaine]

I suggest a Scarf Moxie Salamence. With Choice Scarf, you don't give the opponent a warning, you just sweep, and bacause of Moxie, you get that +1 bonus that you were waiting for. Also, I recomend put more SpD EVs on Volcarona and Forretress, to take those Ice-type moves hits (your team is so weak against Ice-type moves, so I think all Rain team are giving you headaches, because Ice-type moves are so common on Rain Teams). Finally, I see a massively weakness to Mamoswine. Ice Shard gives you a lot of problems. If Dragonite have lost his Multiscale, an Ice Shard can KO him, because you don't have EVs on Def. Also, CS Mamoswines can completely kill your team, Sala/dragonite/Landorus-T are killed by an STAB Ice-type move, Volca gets raped by Stone Edge, Forretress gets raped too by Superpower, and Starmie defense is laughable, so every single move can seriously hit her.

 

[asterat]

Dragonite and Volcarona are both very very broken without stealth rocks and teams goal is to abuse that.
.

Well I have to strongly disagree with you here. In a rain based metagame, fire and dragon coverage is shit, walled by the super common Jirachi. And volcarona is just not that scary unless your team holds a weakness to it *cough* Peng and BKC *cough*. As long as you keep around a decently powerful pokemon, like tornadus therian in the rain, keldeo, or even politoed you will be fine, not to mention SpD heatran with toxic or anything else that beats it, like even dragonite.

Choice specs starmie is an extremely unreliable rapid spinner anyways lol

 

[Sayonara]

Hi, Itchni! Solid team! I find that SubCharge Magnezone is a big threat for your team. It can come in on Forretress, set up a Substitute and a couple of Charge Beam boosts, and then wreck your team with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice. A simple way to fix this weakness would be to replace Forretress' Gyro Ball for Volt Switch. That allows Forretress to escape from Magnezone's Magnet Pull, while occasionally providing offensive momentum for your team.

Finally, I would replace Landorus-T's Hammer Arm for Superpower instead. Superpower hits like a truck, and can decimate Ferrothorn with more ease than Hammer Arm, and it doesn't cost you any Speed each time you use the move. Cool team, and good luck!

 

[Itchni]

Finally, I would replace Landorus-T's Hammer Arm for Superpower instead. Superpower hits like a truck, and can decimate Ferrothorn with more ease than Hammer Arm, and it doesn't cost you any Speed each time you use the move. Cool team, and good luck!

Now there's a change I can get behind, I can't believe I overlooked something like this. Thank you

Hi, Itchni! Solid team! I find that SubCharge Magnezone is a big threat for your team. It can come in on Forretress, set up a Substitute and a couple of Charge Beam boosts, and then wreck your team with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice. A simple way to fix this weakness would be to replace Forretress' Gyro Ball for Volt Switch. That allows Forretress to escape from Magnezone's Magnet Pull, while occasionally providing offensive momentum for your team.

I haven't seen a sub charge beam magnezone at all in gen 5 and even then I could beat it if I played around it. Forry needs gyro ball to counter stuff like dragonite, mamoswine and cloyster.

 

[DaveScottMustaine]

I suggest a Scarf Moxie Salamence. With Choice Scarf, you don't give the opponent a warning, you just sweep, and bacause of Moxie, you get that +1 bonus that you were waiting for. Also, I recomend put more SpD EVs on Volcarona and Forretress, to take those Ice-type moves hits (your team is so weak against Ice-type moves, so I think all Rain team are giving you headaches, because Ice-type moves are so common on Rain Teams). Finally, I see a massively weakness to Mamoswine. Ice Shard gives you a lot of problems. If Dragonite have lost his Multiscale, an Ice Shard can KO him, because you don't have EVs on Def. Also, CS Mamoswines can completely kill your team, Sala/dragonite/Landorus-T are killed by an STAB Ice-type move, Volca gets raped by Stone Edge, Forretress gets raped too by Superpower, and Starmie defense is laughable, so every single move can seriously hit her.

Dude, I suggest you to read this. Yesterday I made a great analysis on your team because a like it, so I want you to improve it because it has potential. Don't forget Mamoswine can sweep your entire team. And, well, just read it.

 

[Doom Dawg]

I have two ideas you could actually try. A Life Orb Starmie to begin with, you will lose 20% power in your attacks, but actually Rapid Spinning and being forced to switch is not very appealing.

Volcarona now has Giga Drain, try it over roost. Eventually some water type, mainly in Rain teams will attempt to wall you. With Giga Drain you recover a LOT of health.

 

[mklo14]

Just some quick comments, I'm in a hurry:

I would put trick on starmie over the least used attack. Why? So your not locked into rapid spin if ya don't want to be, and so it's easier to deal with walls.

Try a different dragon over dragonite or salamence. Why? They both function very simililarly on your team, with the same typing, and same sorta way to win, and even similiar movesets. Putting a latios in there would make one of them special, and would make you less weak to ice shards, and ice attacks in general.

Earth power over roost on volca. This lets you hit the omnipresent heatran (as long as he's not balooned) and I don't think you need roost really. If you switch in without hazards down, and force a switch, quiver dance, then proceed to sweep, theres no reason ever to roost. If they bring in another poke, then it'll be one that can probably OHKO volca, not just hurt him by like 40 percent. (and if they can bring in a pokemon like that you brought volca in to early).

Volt switch over gyro ball on foretress. This just gives you momentum, and I think makes it harder to be setup bait. (more of a personal preference though)

Espeed over roost on dragonite. Why? simple, you lack priority, and it makes it harder for mamoswine (who's become HELLA popular) to revenge dnite.

I would also try brick break over fire punch on salamence, if heatran is givving you trouble (which it looks like he does give your team some troubles if he's on a baloon)

Just some ideas to toy with, hope they let ya do some thinking!

 

[Itchni]

@DaveScottMustaine Volcarona can deal with ice attacks and the pokemon that carry them. After a butterfly dance and with its natural bulk special attacks just don't kill her. Forry needs those def evs to deal with more important threats like ddnite and mamoswine . Mamo can be taken care of by baiting and forry. Hes tough but can be played around. Theres really no need for heavy SpD investment. Shes kinda like a curse user, have a naturally high def and then boost SpD and sweep.

@Doom Dawg Specs starmie is a big mixed bag of things. Its not very intuitive to have have specs without trick and having rapid spin in the mix but the bottom line is that without specs starmie misses out on quite a bit of ko's. standard CB scizor dies to hydropump with rocks but misses out on the ko with life orb. The same goes for most ttar variants that don't heavily invest in SpD. Rapid spin is honestly there in oh crap situations when I NEED to have rocks removed to let ddnite tank some hits. I use it like once every 10 matches or so but it usually changes games when I do use it.

@mklo The more I test and the more I think about it trick on starmie over t-bolt is getting very very appealing. Tricking specs to ferrothorn or blissey is just really good for my team. I've thought about changing dnite to another dragon, but theres really no other dragon as defensive as him yet he can still run through teams. I might test a bit of double dance kingdra to abuse the rain that many many people have. Volcarona is perfect how she is. Shes not meant to sweep directly and she needs roost to tank hits. Dnite is the same. He needs roots to perform his role right. I don't think you read my team right, i havent had problems with heatran because i make sure to pop baloons before trying to sweep with him. Thank you for your ideas though. If i find i need to get more offensive than I might come back and try some of your ideas for volcarona and dnite.

 

[chimpact]

Your team might have two spinners to ease your stealth rock weakness, but any pokemon that carries a Rock Type move will put a huge dent in your team. The pokemon that you have to take those rock moves are Landorus, which has no residual recovery (no leftovers), and Forretress, which will have to repeatedly come in often due to it being your spinner and physical wall. Choice Scarf (or even banded) Terrakion in particular is a problem to your team. I would definitely replace Landorus or one the dragons with Jirachi to take on those stone edges. Jirachi also adds a bit more protection against Tornadus-T which you struggle against greatly as well. Dragonite being the only pokemon that can really handle it efficiently (and that is only with multiscale intact). A moveset of Wish/Protect/Body Slam/Drain Punch. Drain Punch is mostly for Magnezone which you would struggle against because Forretress already is set up fodder for it. I would definitely try to fit in Volt Switch in his moveset to make it less prone to dying to it.

I really don't understand the point of Salamence and Dragonite on the same team with set up movesets. they have similar counters and having 3 set up pokemon weak to rocks is a bad idea.

There's no guarantee you can get rid of the rocks that your opponent has out for the entirety of the game. You lose a lot of momentum when they set up rocks just for you to spin them away. When someone sets up rocks, they usually set them up when they have a free opportunity. However, when you attempt to spin them away you are FORCED to spin them away, losing momentum and still taking hits.

Because of this, I suggest you utilize pokemon that immediately allows you to gain momentum (scizor, rotomW, Tornadus-T). I especially like Tornadus-t, because if they do happen to get rocks up, you have regenerator, u-turn, and other powerful attacking moves to keep them honest. You dont have to worry about being at 50% after two switch-ins because you have regenerator and could get rid of the rocks the next time you bring it in anyway.