Old Mon BST/Ability Change Discussion

Yea my calcs weren't meant to show "MANTINE IS A FANTASTIC ALL-AROUND WALL" but that it doesn't fold over to any moderately strong physical attack. It's primarily a special wall, but it's not total deadweight against physical attackers either.
 
Tbh what ground types is Gengar switching into anyways? Knock Off Gliscor? Knock Off Landorus-T? Earthquake Mold Breaker Excadrill? Earth Power Kyurem-B? Knock Off Donphan? Stone Edge Hippowdown?

Like Ghost / Poison typing is so good, especially with the new Tapus (it can OHKO all of them), where any form of Fairy counter is gonna be good.

In fact, Gengar will be so good in OU that Nintendo knew this and that is why they removed Levitate; to scare y'all away from using this monster threat. Honestly the worst thing about this nerf is taking spikes damage since it isn't like Gengar is a very good ground counter anyways tbh
 
Shurtugal said:
Tbh what ground types is Gengar switching into anyways? Knock Off Gliscor? Knock Off Landorus-T? Earthquake Mold Breaker Excadrill? Earth Power Kyurem-B? Knock Off Donphan? Stone Edge Hippowdown?
...Honestly the worst thing about this nerf is taking spikes damage since it isn't like Gengar is a very good ground counter anyways tbh
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I don't think anyone has ever considered Gengar a ground counter, or even a check, especially considering two of those mons you mentioned hit him through Levitate and Gliscor is one off the best Gengar counters in OU. That being said, losing free switch in opportunities really sucks for a frail mon like Gengar. Having immunites on your team is very useful during battles because it can make your opponent hesitate to use a move. Just the threat of a Gengar switching in makes you hesitant to click Earthquake on a Scarf Lando.

Honestly though I think Gengar is fine and will stay OU because it takes mad prediction skills to make use of Levitate for the most part. I agree that it usually isn't a good idea to switch Gengar in on ground types but I think your underselling the nerf a little.
 
Hourai said:
It's great seeing how the weather wars are getting new troops, and now Mantine is looking pretty great

Although RIP Gengar, your six-generation streak of being OU is finally over

The Chimecho buff is appreciated, but it's still rubbish even after the +30 boost
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Too bad the weather wars will never be as good as they were in gen 5. I miss sweeping teams with victrebell and exeggutor or shiftry and venusaur.
 
What Levitate enabled was, for instance, a team to not be swept by something like Scarf Lando-T. The number of times a mon like that could have finished off my team with EQ but I kept Gengar alive, forcing it to Stone Edge/Knock Off, thus preventing it from breaking through, say, Tyranitar who I had left. Whether we like it or not, Gengar has now got a weakness where there was once an immunity, even if that only comes into play once every 20 matches; that's got to be less situational than Cursed Body which is absolute trash for non-lead offensive mons.
 
What do you think about Talonflame's chances of having some kind of place or niche in OU this gen, as slim as it may seem right now?

IMO, I think it will have to resort to the older, often considered noobish, all-out-offensive movesets it had in the early XY meta, as they were affected the least by the Gale Wings nerf... and can, in fact, entirely forgo it in favor of Flame Body.

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak / Liechi Berry / Salac Berry / Apicot Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost / Natural Gift

It's somewhat obvious to say that Talonflame benefited from essentially nothing in this generation shift. It gained no notable moves, can't take advantage of a Z-Crystal for luring moves as all it has is Solar Beam, and Bloom Doom will tickle at best on a physical attacker, and, of course, the nerf on Gale Wings.

This means Swords Dance is most likely the way to go, as after all, Talonflame has an amazing base 128 Speed that means it will often hit first with no need for priority, and it helps that this generation introduced literally one Pokemon that is faster than it... that happens to be doubly weak to its Flying STAB (Pheromosa). The Mega Evolution speed buff didn't mean much to it as well, as the Pokemon that outrun it only after Mega Evolving, with the exception of Mega Alakazam, already had ways to beat Talonflame (Swampert's bulk and rain-boosted moves, Lopunny's Fake Out, Manectric's Intimidate and resistance to Flying, etc.).

The Berries may be as effective as always, with Apicot Berry Natural Gift being unaffected by Grassy Terrain meaning Heatran still fears it. It can also be an emergency check to Tapu Bulu, taking one move and both probably getting KOed by their respective recoil.

Bulk Up sets may have a chance to work, but they either have to risk taking a hit before Roosting or sacrifice bulk to keep a fast Roost, so I think it will be inferior in this gen.
 
Siggu said:
What do you think about Talonflame's chances of having some kind of place or niche in OU this gen, as slim as it may seem right now?

IMO, I think it will have to resort to the older, often considered noobish, all-out-offensive movesets it had in the early XY meta, as they were affected the least by the Gale Wings nerf... and can, in fact, entirely forgo it in favor of Flame Body.

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak / Liechi Berry / Salac Berry / Apicot Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost / Natural Gift

It's somewhat obvious to say that Talonflame benefited from essentially nothing in this generation shift. It gained no notable moves, can't take advantage of a Z-Crystal for luring moves as all it has is Solar Beam, and Bloom Doom will tickle at best on a physical attacker, and, of course, the nerf on Gale Wings.

This means Swords Dance is most likely the way to go, as after all, Talonflame has an amazing base 128 Speed that means it will often hit first with no need for priority, and it helps that this generation introduced literally one Pokemon that is faster than it... that happens to be doubly weak to its Flying STAB (Pheromosa). The Mega Evolution speed buff didn't mean much to it as well, as the Pokemon that outrun it only after Mega Evolving, with the exception of Mega Alakazam, already had ways to beat Talonflame (Swampert's bulk and rain-boosted moves, Lopunny's Fake Out, Manectric's Intimidate and resistance to Flying, etc.).

The Berries may be as effective as always, with Apicot Berry Natural Gift being unaffected by Grassy Terrain meaning Heatran still fears it. It can also be an emergency check to Tapu Bulu, taking one move and both probably getting KOed by their respective recoil.

Bulk Up sets may have a chance to work, but they either have to risk taking a hit before Roosting or sacrifice bulk to keep a fast Roost, so I think it will be inferior in this gen.
Click to expand...

I'd be shocked if it had a niche; outside of maybe Wonder Trio/Double Defog teams; because Stealth rock inhibits it so much. As an all out attacker, it's unreliability is such a turn off for me, and I can't see it being any better than Staraptor due its God awful stats. I actually would expect the SpDef set to be the only niche left of it due to the fact that Fire/Flying is actually a really nice defensive typing
 
I've been using Flame Body unironically in ORAS to punish U-Turn Scizor & Fake Out Medicham spam, but honestly I bluff Gale Wings a lot, so I will probably lose all the niche since people will know I can't be Gale Wings.
 
Talonflame will be trickier than ever to use in OU, but all hope is not lost! Give it the Flying Z-Crystal and it could still be pretty dangerous if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field. Z-Brave Bird has 190 BP, which is ~32% stronger than Brave Bird with the Sharp Beak. Plus, since it doesn't deal recoil to Talonflame, there's still the possibility of following it up with a priority Brave Bird on the next turn. It can be quite a nuke on Swords Dance sets. Here's a few calcs with Brave Bird set to 190 BP to demonstrate:

+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 330-389 (110.3 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 405-477 (126.9 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 394-465 (94.4 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 372-438 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 2388-2812 (914.9 - 1077.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (lol)

We should probably be glad that Gale Wings did get nerfed, because otherwise this thing could get pretty ridiculous.
 
Pelipper is gonna be fun. Base 95 SpA, as meh as it sounds, with no miss STAB hurricane and STAB hydro pump, is gonna be pretty slick. not to mention, I believe it's the only ability based weather setter besides Hippowdon to have reliable recovery, and unlike the hippo, Pelipper actually gets immediate benefit from its own weather. i'm thinking:
Modest @ damp rock, 252 hp, 252 SpA, 4 Def.
Hurricane
Hydro Pump/Scald
Roost
U-turn

Since its SpA is now almost the same as it Def, you can go offensive, and Water/Flying is really nice offensively. Roost, as mentioned before, gives it a niche over almost every other weather setter, even the Hoenn Legendaries, and Slow U-turn lets you bring in something like Kabutops or Kingdra for free.
 
OMG OMG OMG!!!!!! This generation has blessed Masquerain that needed boosts. Thank you GameFreak!

That 80 to 100 Special Attack and that 60 to 80 Speed man it looks like it can finally compete as a solid Quiver Dancer or a sticky web setter. Not to mention a Baton Passer.

Overall I'm so happy for my little buddy :) Masquerain gained the highest boost of 40 points this generation. Can't wait to play the game tomorrow.
 
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