Old Mon BST/Ability Change Discussion


Robot from the Future
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Hi All,

Had a few PMs about this discussion.

The above is a fairly accurate listing of what has changed in regards to old Pokemon with BST/Ability changes.

Please check out Stellar's thread Here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/movepool-changes.3586517/ for movepool changes (That is roughly accurate as well). As with most of the stuff at the moment, things may change going forwards, but we are confident most of the information is accurate.
Everyone is upset with Gengar losing levitate, but in this gen that IS a buff (EDIT: Derp, forgot he's literally weak to the type he loses an immunity to. Never mind haha.). He can take advantage of terrain which is looking to be a big part of this meta. Gengar will greatly appreciate not having to worry about sucker punch from psychic terrain or no statuses from misty terrain.

I doubt toxic spikes Toxapex will become super relevant but if it does he can absorb spikes now too.

Plenty of other changes are very exciting too. I can see Pelipper getting some use now. It'll be interesting to see if Torkoal will be worth anything now that it gets drought. Mantine will definitely see play becoming a great bulky defogger with recovery. Wonder if Slush Rush and +20 attack with make Beartic somewhat usable? It'll be difficult to get in safely but it should take down some threats before going down itself if it's pulled off.
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Dodrio was the one of the most buffed Mons, honestly. +10 Speed on top of getting Jump Kick AND Swords Dance. Someone at GF must really love that thing.

Swellow will be terrifying, now that the Specs and Guts sets are both so viable. It can run either or, so it will be crazy unpredictable.

Yay for Pelipper! Hydro Pump and Hurricane all day long.

Gigalith + Sand Sp. Def Buff = BEAST MODE.

And as for Farfetched....good for you, little buddy.

So Mantine got buffed HP and Roost. Will it be OU worthy as a defogger/special wall?
I say yes. Those buffs were just what it needed to at least see some OU play.


May I see it?
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Hoo boy, where to start.

Roggenrola as a new sand setter that gets the boost in spdef, no quad weakness like ttar and the ability to go boom after setting up rocks and sand. Pelipper as the new rain abuser with Drizzle and the first auto-weather setter that can use scouting moves, in this case U-turn. With reliable recovery in Roost, good defensively and the ability to go offensive with moves like Hydro Pump or Hurricane is also appreciated. I feel like this will shaft Politoed as the go to weather setter in rain teams in gen 7. Sun was never that good in gen 6 and I doubt Torkoal brings much to the table to revolutionize it again. Beartic with Slush rush and the boost in atk is nice and it will be interesting to how hail will turn out in gen 7. Vanilluxe is prob gonna be the better HA Aurorus, it got some nice stats backing it up but I doubt it will make that big of an impact in higher tiers.

Gengar is RIP, dogs got shafted out of abilities they never got, not much else noteworthy ability wise.

The only notable base stat changes are Dodrio's speed, Qwilfish's defense boost, Mantinte's HP boost, Swellow's Spa boost and Hurricane addition, Masquerain's Spa and speed boost, Volbeat/Illumise's double defense boosts and Cryogonal's HP and defense boost. The rest were either unnecessary or tries to patch up GF's bad gimmick pokemon that are still bad after these boosts.

I don't know if this Duggy's atk boost works on the non-alola form, if it does it will be great since it still has Arena Trap.
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95 base Special Attacker, Drizzle, and STAB 100% accurate Hurricane to go along with it? Jesus, that's a lot of buffs for Pelipper. Shame though that Drizzle's going to be OU-only again, most likely at least. (Damn Kingdra)

RIP NU Swellow. At least Toucannon or Chatot could be a decent replacement, I guess....

Gigalith got massively buffed. Its sure not E-ranked PU anymore, that's for damn sure. Vanniluxe can also be good in NU. In fact, Hail could be decent. Just a lot of type overlap, that's all.
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In my opinion...


- Dodrio: Between reaching the crowded 110 Speed tier as well as getting Swords Dance AND Jump Kick, it's basically the best bird thanks to Talonflame's nerf chain.

- Dugtrio: It kind of lacked punch at 80 base Attack. That very respectable boost will only make it an even better trapper. Quite shocked it has such little attention... but then again, one should check what that +20 base Attack can give it that it couldn't already.

- Swellow: What's with Game Freak suddenly trying to turn it into a mixed attacker? It came out of the blue... but whatever. I think special Scrappy sets are going to take over Guts sets, given their higher starting power, getting Hurricane, and the lack of a need to carry Toxic/Flame Orb.

- Pelipper: Thanks to Drizzle not being a Hidden Ability, it's the only weather setter with Defog. Flying-typing also allows it to not fall against surprise Solar Beams like that lure Ninetales set in BW2 used to take out Politoed... and while HP Electric exists... can't see that becoming common wherever Pelipper ends up in.

- Torkoal: Can set Sun and Stealth Rock, as well as Rapid Spin or use Shell Smash sets (Although it's still quite slow) to sweep with its own Sun. Much better than Ninetales, and may be worth using if you don't want to use your Mega Slot on Charizard-Y.

- Vanilluxe: Sadly, there's not much that can be said about it. It's just a Hail setter with pretty high stats and a noticeably less bad typing than Abomasnow. It does have Freeze-Dry to counter Rain. At least there is something it can say it does quite well.

- Masquerain: Still rather slow, but it's much more viable for Quiver Dance with that higher Speed and Special Attack.

- Beartic: Extra base Attack and Slush Rush will make it the go-to sweeper in Hail... or rain, if you wish to use Swift Swim. Will it be enough? Who knows?

- Mantine: With Roost it finally has what Skarmory had that it wishes it ever had - reliable recovery. The extra HP also helps wall special attackers, though double Electric weakness still hurts.


- Gigalith: Cool mixed defenses with Sand Stream, coupled with high Attack... leave it as a kinda outclassed Sand setter as Hippowdon has recovery and no Fighting/Ground weakness and Tyranitar is Tyranitar. But if you want to use something different...

- Raikou, Suicune and Entei: Those Hidden Abilities they once had were really cool. Now... they are practically useless. But they didn't get them, so whatever.


- Gengar: Losing an immunity sucks, especially for something as frail as Gengar. For something that is weak to that type, as Gengar.
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Gengar losing immunity to one of the most common attacking types is a huge hit. I know it's too early to talk about tiers but it wouldn't surprise me if Gengar finally drops from OU. If only Cursed Body could activate if it hit a Subsitute. Then it would be useful on Gengar's Substitute sets. Psychic Terrain's introduction does help offset the loss of Levitate slightly though.

Pelipper got a huge buff and I could definitely see it replacing Politoed as the Drizzle user of choice.
I'm in a niche minority but I'm pretty annoyed Vanilluxe didn't get aurora veil. Now there's no reason to use him for snow warning over ninetales
Losing levitate is a huge hit, but is Gengar really done with its OU run?

Gengar @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Pain Split

The old 4th and 5th gen Subsplit sets benefit pretty highly from cursed body, though arguably not as much as the switch in opportunities levitate brings. With Cursed Body, you're basically running Sub Disable and Subsplit at the same time. Apparently the sets fallen off enough in Gen 6 to not merit mention on Gengar's analysis, but Cursed Body could make this particular set relevant again.
The only problem is that, unless it was changed, Cursed Body will not trigger if the user is behind a Substitute.
Mantine getting reliable recovery and +20 to its base HP means that it's probably an OU viable Defogger. Also, it walls the living hell out of almost all Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y, as well as checking any non-electric special attacker with ease (seriously Timid Zard-Y Fire Blast in the Sun isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO after rocks).
It's great seeing how the weather wars are getting new troops, and now Mantine is looking pretty great

Although RIP Gengar, your six-generation streak of being OU is finally over

The Chimecho buff is appreciated, but it's still rubbish even after the +30 boost
Gengar losing Levitate is a nerf, but as Retro64 said now he can take advantage of terrain, which may be huge this gen. So really its a Nuff/Berf.

The dogs losing abilities they never got for the crappy inner focus kinda sucks. Pressure already is lack luster except on Suicune. Shame, but they still should be good.

So many new Weather setters and the Slush rush ability is very nice. I can see hail teams being better now.

Dodrio got lots of love. good for that bird

Kinda wish farfetch'd got a little more love, but it actually can hurt now with Stick and high crit moves. it will be Stage 3 crit, which means this duck will always crit. With 95 attack that should be pretty painful

Stick, Defiant.
Leaf Blade
Night Slash
Roost/Aerial Ace

I can see the duck being quite good.

Arbok can hit a bit harder. 95 is not bad plus it already has Coil and Intimidate. Can see some more use of of him

Corsola got some nice extra bulk. It was needed.

Noctowl may be useful now with that extra Spec Attack plus it got Moonblast

Some nice buffs for our toxic spider. A bit more Spd Def so it can take hits better plus swords dance and toxic web can make it a great lead pokemon with lots of unique set up options.

Mantine will probably be a huge wall now thanks to roost and those stat boosts

Swellow is going to be hitting hard now with her special attacks

Pelipper got a lot of love. Thats gonna be one scary water fowl.

Masquerian needed some love. That is a large boost and should be hitting hard now.

Delkatty is faster. Thats good. Still not sure what one would do with the kitty though

Lunatune and solarock are now more bulky. Thats good. With their new moves(Power gem and Flare Blitz) they may see more use.

Volbeat and Illumise are a lot tankier now. I can see VOlbeat setting up tail glow baton passes easier now.

Thats a lot of buffs for chimcho, but will it be enough?

Crustle hits a lot harder now. Thats good

Bearartic with the slush rush is going to be scary

Cryogonical is a lot better now. More HP makes its already special walling better, and 20 more defence means sneezing at it won't kill it.

All really good stat buffs for these pokemon and will make them even better I think
The Gengar nerf is really uncalled for (as oppose to like Talonflame's). If they were so annoyed about him being so good for all this time, they should have idk buffed other Ghost types to give him competition? Or at least gave him an actual good ability instead of this lazy ass cop out every other Ghost gets. Now the only sure fire OU Ghost we still have is a freaking Mega. All the new ones suck except for Marshadow (which might be too amazing for his own good). God, I'm so frustrated. >:|
Dodrio getting a Speed buff and Swords Dance also looks really great now, it could even be up to NU or possibly even BL3/RU now as a result

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