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I was looking at the Staaabmons mashup, and some things caught my eye, and some things I think we should consider.
1. I think we should unban Tapu Lele: Lele was banned in part in Stabmons because of the secondary effects that Psychic Surge has as well as its good offensive stats (post link here). However in AAA, the ability that Lele provided in Stabmons can now be seen on any pokemon, and thus Tapu Lele's unique utility that caused it to be banned in Stabmons is no longer unique, and thus can be unbanned.
2. I think we can unban Tapu Koko (maybe a suspect test of sorts): In AAA, Koko's best abilities are Galvanize and Pixilate in order to fix its moveset problems. However, in Stabmons, its moveset problems are no longer an issue as it can run Bolt Strike and Play Rough. The difference was that the power and versatility that Koko had in Stabmons caused it to be banned (post link here). Although, part of that power comes from its ability in Electric Surge which boosts Electric type moves. Although, similarly to Tapu Lele, Electric Surge can also be seen anywhere, and thus is no longer unique to Tapu Koko. AAA also has Motor Drive / Volt Absorb, allowing things like Skarmory to hardwall Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko's main sets in either metagame seem invalidated due to the other metagame, so I'm not entirely sure where it could fall, but it seems worth looking at.
3. I think we can unban Porygon Z: Porygon Z was banned in Stabmons due to its "raw power thanks to adaptability" (post link here). However, Adaptability is abundant in AAA, so Porygon Z isn't special in that sense anymore. However, I believe we should keep an eye on Adaptability. Adaptability has made some Pokemon problematic in AAA, like Terrakion with nearly unresisted coverage, and that was banned. Adding Stabmons to the mix, most Pokemon get improved Stab moves (a la Tapu Koko), and then Adaptability further enhances that power, and it could quickly spiral out of control.
If this mashup gets played more often (via tours and such), then other things might come to light, these are just my initial thoughts having looked at the banlist for Staaabmons.
1. Tapu Lele is probably a pretty safe unban. I can see Tinted Lens sets being decent, but not unbalanced in a meta that will likely lean towards offense, at least to begin. I will welcome any other discussion of this mon, but if nobody has other opinions I will unban it.
2. Tapu Koko is not a safe unban. Unbans are not my priority unless they are extremely obvious, and I don't think this one is. Tapu Koko still has an insane 130 base speed and in staaabmons can run Sheer Force, Tough Claws, or Adaptability to boost its newfound strong STAB moves. It's certainly not impossible that it will be balanced; electric immunities are much easier to come by now with Volt Absorb and co. I can see testing this if we ever get some form of ladder, but until then it will remain banned, and if we do get a ladder banning broken things will be a much higher priority.
3. Porygon-Z is also probably not broken. Adaptability honestly might be. However I can't think of any new reliable counters for Porygon-Z besides memey Soundproof mons. Other Pokemon (such as Meloetta) probably generally outclass this in theory thanks to superior bulk, typing, and / or speed. What do you guys think about this one?
Yh pz was more banned for the sheer disgusting power of stab adapt boomburst. Which it would still be a pain to wall in this tier (especially if u consider using tinted lens over adapt) without using as drampa said, memey sets such as soundproof.
Though I would like to add that perish trapping is possible for bulky normal types like chansey or type null now since they can get access to perish song and block along with soundproof, making it so that u don't necessarily need to hard switch or pivot into something else or fear that the opposing Mon can trap u as well
Ransei has created a groupchat for OM mashups! No link because it will likely die due to inactivity every once in awhile, but we had a number of tours today. I think the code I have for some of the tours doesn't work perfectly but I'll figure that out when I have the time.
I am heading towards a decision of quickbanning Mega Kangaskhan from Stabmons Ubers and Stabmons Mix and Mega. Super Fang grants it the ability to break any non-ghost wall, and access to Crunch and Sucker Punch deals with many of the relevant ghosts as well. Please comment!
In other news I have adopted Level 51's banlist for Doubles STAB. I freely admit I know little of doubles and it makes no sense to use a singles-oriented banlist in a doubles meta.
No, and there likely will not be. Inverse is not a permanent ladder and as such will not likely be supported here and we feel that Camomons lacks the competitive community to sustain an interest in mashups involving it. You can talk about these in the om room and even ask for tours if you like (no guarantee you'll get them though).
Earlier today I made 3 omotm mashup tournaments with custom banlists. The banlists posted below are nigh similar to the ones I used and I've decided to post on this thread to create a possible discussion.
Please note that the banlists above are only what is added after making the initial tour, whether it is Suicide Cup or Scalemons. A large part of their original banlists are still applied
Where can I suggest my BH doubles team for samples?
If it's here, there is the team and everything that explain how to use it -> https://pokepast.es/237310b2c4bb87e0
A fun BH Doubles core. Flower Gift Cherrim provides Groudon 1.5x Attack and 1.5x Special Defense once it sets up Sun. Wide Guard and Fake Out protect Groudon from strong attacks while it uses Thousand Arrows or Precipice Blades to hurt the opponent. A downside of this core is that without another sun setter, Cherrim’s main niche is removed once Groudon dies.
A fun BH Doubles core. Flower Gift Cherrim provides Groudon 1.5x Attack and 1.5x Special Defense once it sets up Sun. Wide Guard and Fake Out protect Groudon from strong attacks while it uses Thousand Arrows or Precipice Blades to hurt the opponent. A downside of this core is that without another sun setter, Cherrim’s main niche is removed once Groudon dies.
you can go even further by giving groudon grassy surge to boost cherrim's stab (to put over stealth rocks) and you can also use grass pledge and fire pledge
As a general thumb of rule, it's best to give all your Pokemon Protect in Doubles unless they're holding Choice item or Assault Vest. Anyway here are my suggestions for your team:
Greenhero:
Not a big fan of the Pledge theme. Then again, this is coming from a guy that never wins against a Pledge team.
What does Rhyperior even do beyond just act as a partner to Boomburst Magearna? Replace it with something else.
Relying on Solar Beam doesn't seem good on a Pokemon that doesn't have Drought or Desolate Land as its own abilities. On a related note, I don't think Mega Sceptile is a good choice for BH Doubles, but that's just my opinion.
Kyogre has too many Water-type moves, 7.8/10.
Use High Horsepower over Stomping Tantrum.
Why does Giratina even have Curse?! It doesn't seem to accomplish anything.
Squawkerz:
From what I understand, the stat boosts from Flower Gift isn't just limited to Cherrim. So basically, replace it with something else.
Edit: oops, it's hard coded. Don't think Flower Gift it's worth the effort, though.
As a general thumb of rule, it's best to give all your Pokemon Protect in Doubles unless they're holding Choice item or Assault Vest. Anyway here are my suggestions for your team:
Greenhero:
Not a big fan of the Pledge theme. Then again, this is coming from a guy that never wins against a Pledge team.
What does Rhyperior even do beyond just act as a partner to Boomburst Magearna? Replace it with something else.
Relying on Solar Beam doesn't seem good on a Pokemon that doesn't have Drought or Desolate Land as its own abilities. On a related note, I don't think Mega Sceptile is a good choice for BH Doubles, but that's just my opinion.
Kyogre has too many Water-type moves, 7.8/10.
Use High Horsepower over Stomping Tantrum.
Why does Giratina even have Curse?! It doesn't seem to accomplish anything.
Squawkerz:
From what I understand, the stat boosts from Flower Gift isn't just limited to Cherrim. So basically, replace it with something else.
Rhyperior is here cause stats and stabs, stomping tantrum doesn't miss for groudon-primal but high horse power is an option I note, curse allow giratina to do cheap damages to the opponent's mons but can be replaced by destiny bond or spectral thief if you want the rest is fine like how it is
NB flower gift doesn't work on anything else than cherrim so it's fine
this is the damage with Flower Gift + Cherrim
turn 1
Groudon used V-create!
It's not very effective...
The opposing Kyogre lost 56% of its health!
Groudon's Speed fell!
Groudon's Defense fell!
Groudon's Special Defense fell!
This is the damage with Flower Gift + Unown
turn 2
Groudon used V-create!
It's not very effective...
The opposing Kyogre lost 41% of its health!
Groudon's Speed fell!
Groudon's Defense fell!
Groudon's Special Defense fell!
and yes, i know they are two different kyogres, but both of them have the same exact movesets and item, so it is safe to assume that they have the same evs/ivs/natures as well.
on a separate note, i have a coding question. On rom, both Red Orb + Groudon and Primal Groudon on it's own are banned, while the banlist in this thread just says that Primal Groudon is banned. Which is correct?
on a separate note, i have a coding question. On rom, both Red Orb + Groudon and Primal Groudon on it's own are banned, while the banlist in this thread just says that Primal Groudon is banned. Which is correct?
In BH, you are not allowed to use Primal Groudon without Red Orb. However, a Groudon holding a Red Orb is allowed.
Edit: Anaconja, from what I understand, the banlist of BH Doubles is a carryover from BH. It's just that the ROM server doesn't detect the banlist very well.
the banlist for bh doubles is different, though:vanilla pdon is also banned. i believe it’s because of its bulk and 1 weakness, as well as many of its stabs being multi-target (i.e tarrows, pblades, lava plume, eruption) but don’t quote me on this.
Alright folks as we're still in the early stages of testing metagames I'm going to be making some changes here.
BH LC:
I personally feel that the beginning banlist is too restrictive for a meta based on Balanced Hackmons. I am going to unban Murkrow and Misdreavus for now. This leaves the Pokemon banlist as Scyther, Gligar, Type: Null, and Sneasel, none of which I'm remotely interested in unbanning as all essentially have the same problem of too many damn stats. (If I forgot anything that's on the banlist it is remaining banned and please tell me so I can add it)
StAAAbmons:
Tapu Lele is unbanned. As The Consort said here, there's no real reason to keep it banned when it hardly stands out from other, similar Pokemon that are legal at first glance. I am of course open to rebanning it if it proves broken in time, but that will be based on evidence of the StAAAbmons meta, rather than arbitrarily carrying it over from STABmons.
Similarly Porygon-Z is going to be unbanned until we have evidence of it being broken here specifically. Rebanning is always an option.
Tapu Koko will remain banned. With options such as Adaptability and Tough Claws Tapu Koko retains its top notch speed tier and its obscene power. It won't run its PIxilate sets from AAA because it doesn't have to: it has a good STAB option in Play Rough.
STABmons LC:
No changes yet just a set.
Wynaut @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 212 Def / 212 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Barrier
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Stored Power
1) Remove Dark types via teammates
2) Trap something you can set up on
3) Set up on said thing
4) Stored Power everything to death
I can honestly see this becoming very problematic in time thanks to Shadow Tag. I haven't investigated fully what it can set up on, which will probably be the deciding factor.
STABmons Mix and Mega:
Kangaskhanite is banned. Note that this is a complete ban, similar to Gengarite, not a restriction. As such, Kangaskhan will not be able to mega evolve with Kangaskhanite. It's ability to 2hko every non-ghost in the meta with Super Fang + Seismic Toss made it far too effective a wall / stallbreaker, especially with access to Crunch which gave it the ability to KO most ghosts as well.
I am going to be looking at unrestricting Extreme Speed. What made it banworthy in standard STABmons was its overcentralizing effects due to the plethora of strong normal types that could abuse it (along with a couple non-normal types). Here the best Espeeders are -Ate-Speeders, but almost every Pokemon that gains Extreme Speed is primary Normal, and would lose one of its STABs in Mega Evolving. I don't think that Lucarionite or Lopunnite (or any other stone) will break non-native Espeed abusers. The only one I have found that I consider particularly noteworthy is Flareon, which has a role reminiscent of Entei, but with access to Swords Dance and Fake Out (This may be broken as Entei is already borderline broken, but if it is Flareon will be banned instead of Extreme Speed). There might, of course, be more noteworthy new Espeeders that simply haven't been discovered yet, but I think it is definitely worth discussing.
What do you think about Extreme Speed? Is it balanced? Will it be centralizing?
STABmons Doubles:
I have amended the banlist to be what Level 51 suggested as a starting point. Input on other doubles metagames is still very helpful.
BH Doubles
I'm liking the discussion on BH Doubles ^_^ Just wanna clear something up and get it fixed.
on a separate note, i have a coding question. On rom, both Red Orb + Groudon and Primal Groudon on it's own are banned, while the banlist in this thread just says that Primal Groudon is banned. Which is correct?
This is a bug. As you can see in this picture, anything that is banned as a base forme is being banned post-forme change, including things that clearly should not be (mawile op). I'm hoping we can get this fixed. The only bans BH doubles will be keeping for now are those that BH Singles has passed down to us. Feel free to recommend unbans / bans, as I know this meta is certainly not going to be nearly the same as singles.
I've been seeing some complaints about Soul Heart, so that would be a good discussion to have imo. What have people's experiences using and playing against it been like?
tl;dr
Misdreavus and Murkrow are unbanned from BH LC
Tapu Lele and Porygon-Z are unbanned from StAAAbmons
Kangaskhanite is banned from STABmons MnM
Red Orb, Kangaskhanite, Medichamite, and Mawilite should be legal on their respective Pokemon.
STABmons Doubles will use the banlist provided by Level 51 here, also in the hide tag below.
Discussion points are:
Soul Heart ban in BH Doubles
Extreme Speed unban in Stabmons MnM, Entei ban in STABmons MnM
Tapu Koko unban in StAAAbmons
And of course anything else you find discussion worthy :)
Tagging urkerab to implement the changes in this post for metas that exist on ROM (do I even have the right to do this? lmao tell me if I'm overstepping my bounds)
To be fair, I am the only one who keeps complaining about Soul-Heart...
Anyway, back on the BH doubles topic, I have tested Soul-Heart before. I already stated my opinion about Soul-Heart before, so I'm not going to repeat that. Instead, what I'm going to do is show several replays. Here's Mega Gengar, Xerneas, and Mega Charizard Y in action. Do note that Final Gambit is actually optional as I just want a quicker way to activate Soul-Heart, and the bot used Heal Pulse on its foes for whatever reason.
On the related note, I tried No Guard + Dark Void and Serene Grace + Rock Slide, those are dumb. Here's a replay of it. Only Darkrai can use it, but it is scary fast anyway.
Tl;DR: I personally think Soul-Heart is ban-worthy in BH doubles... but I think Dark Void should be banned first, also do something with Serene Grace + Rock Slide. Maybe even Final Gambit.
You can now only use Destiny Bond once every two turns.
Pokemon expected to be the most impacted: Sweepers, Prankster users
Prankster lands on the unlucky side of the mountain once again as a significant role for Prankster Pokemon is to make sure they use Destiny Bond first in order to take sweepers down with them. Because Pokemon cannot use Destiny Bond for more than one consecutive turn, sweepers are able to take advantage by continuing to set up when they predict an opponent is going to use Destiny Bond.
Ah, but if the Prankster Pokémon is slower than the sweeper, then it can alternate Destiny Bond an an attack, and the Destiny Bond will be Prankster boosted, so it will go before the sweeper's move the first turn while the attack will go after the sweeper's move the second turn.
On rom, both Red Orb + Groudon and Primal Groudon on it's own are banned, while the banlist in this thread just says that Primal Groudon is banned. Which is correct?
That's a coding error on ROM's part. In order to simplify some of the banlists, ROM's code allows you to ban Primals and Megas by name and/or ability rather than item. Normally this works because Groudon-Primal is an in-battle transformation, but that is untrue in BH, so I'd added some code to unban Groudon + Red Orb, but I'd forgotten to tell the aforementioned code that the Red Orb is an item so it failed to unban it correctly.
Misdreavus and Murkrow are unbanned from BH LC
Tapu Lele and Porygon-Z are unbanned from StAAAbmons
Kangaskhanite is banned from STABmons MnM
Red Orb, Kangaskhanite, Medichamite, and Mawilite should be legal on their respective Pokemon.
STABmons Doubles will use the banlist provided by Level 51 here, also in the hide tag below.
Discussion points are:
Soul Heart ban in BH Doubles
Extreme Speed unban in Stabmons MnM, Entei ban in STABmons MnM
Tapu Koko unban in StAAAbmons
And of course anything else you find discussion worthy :)
Tagging urkerab to implement the changes in this post for metas that exist on ROM (do I even have the right to do this? lmao tell me if I'm overstepping my bounds)
This is your official thread is it not? I'm just glad you're letting me know that ROM needs an update. (Unfortunately I wasn't aware of a previous update so for instance I only have Scyther on the BH LC banlist right now which means it will take me a bit longer then normal to straighten up the banlists.)
Fun Tapu Bulu set i thought of randomly for StAAAbmons, probably not the greatest in practice but with the right team could be nice.
Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Solar Blade
- Play Rough
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
The problem with this is that you don't get the grassy terrain boost, but if someone else on the team were to set the terrain, this would do massive damage.
This is your official thread is it not? I'm just glad you're letting me know that ROM needs an update. (Unfortunately I wasn't aware of a previous update so for instance I only have Scyther on the BH LC banlist right now which means it will take me a bit longer then normal to straighten up the banlists.)
Fun Tapu Bulu set i thought of randomly for StAAAbmons, probably not the greatest in practice but with the right team could be nice.
Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Solar Blade
- Play Rough
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
The problem with this is that you don't get the grassy terrain boost, but if someone else on the team were to set the terrain, this would do massive damage.
