Idk about the best but Giratina-O can kind of check Dragon Claw variants but non SD with a DM, Ho-Oh does OK if it's lacking Rock Slide, Arceus Ground also checks it nicely with Judgement, Mega Rayquaza can check it if it doesn't have an SD up. Mega Mence can set up on non SD variants with the help of Intimidate, Base Groudon does well against Fire Punch instead of Overheat variants, Ditto can revenge it I guess. You can also use Lugia. That's all I can really think of right now.
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Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion
- Thread starter Theorymon
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Idk about the best but Giratina-O can kind of check Dragon Claw variants but non SD with a DM, Ho-Oh does OK if it's lacking Rock Slide, Arceus Ground also checks it nicely with Judgement, Mega Rayquaza can check it if it doesn't have an SD up. Mega Mence can set up on non SD variants with the help of Intimidate, Base Groudon does well against Fire Punch instead of Overheat variants, Ditto can revenge it I guess. You can also use Lugia. That's all I can really think of right now.
I think you misread the guys question, he was looking for Ground Arceus counters, stating that Kyogre isn't great because he's a free swap in for p-don.
GrassCeus seems like an appropriate response, and you can alter its moveset to ensure it won't give Pokemon that trouble your team free switch-ins.
Giratina-O
Nearly every Groundceus in ORAS right now is special. This may be just an early metagame fad or it might stick around but I have been using Gira-O on one of my offensive teams as a ground immunity. The issue however is that I've seen special Groundceus running Ice Beam to deter those common ground immune switch-ins. P Ogre is actually an okay Groundceus switch in and isn't a total momentum loss if the opponent sends in P Don because you can Ice Beam / HP Ground it as it comes in. Grassceus can switch in well and threaten with Grass Knot or Judgment (whatever we'll decide is better in ORAS) although I'm a bit hesitant to run Grassceus on offense because it is a more passive Arceus type, although all Arceus do share the same stats and movepool.
Condensing your checks on offense is very important and Gira-O can potentially serve as a check to mons like Groundceus / P Don / EKiller. P Don has been running Dragon Claw for Gira-O however, Lum and Shadow Force EKiller give no shits about Gira-O, and Groundceus can run stuff like CM + Ice Beam. When the meta settles maybe we'll have better answers for this kind of stuff.
Condensing your checks on offense is very important and Gira-O can potentially serve as a check to mons like Groundceus / P Don / EKiller. P Don has been running Dragon Claw for Gira-O however, Lum and Shadow Force EKiller give no shits about Gira-O, and Groundceus can run stuff like CM + Ice Beam. When the meta settles maybe we'll have better answers for this kind of stuff.
I am a bit disappointed with primal kyogre (weaker than specs, slower than scarf and no left/chesto recovery). =/
But Im hyped to see how will Mega Salamance and Mega Rayquaza will perform; they both look very solid offensive threats (on paper at least).
But Im hyped to see how will Mega Salamance and Mega Rayquaza will perform; they both look very solid offensive threats (on paper at least).
kyogre has a base 150 attack stat to muscle past dedicated special walls. besides, i dont think that normal kyogre can even be viably run anymore due to primal groudon.
I disagree with both points. Kyogre has an abysmal physical movepool and can already blast through mighty special walls such as Blissey. The only usable physical moves P Ogre has at its disposal are Waterfall and Earthquake, the latter only hits like Dialga and Zekrom switch-ins.
I see no reason not to continue running normal Ogre. Sure Spout + Choice Item won't be nearly as spamable since P Don is immune, but defensive variants with Leftovers may still be excellent and even choice Ogre can run stuff like HP Ground to nuke P Don switch-ins.
I think there is something some players don't realise while comparing Kyogre to Primal. As long as Primal Groudon exist, normal Kyogre is pretty much irrelevant because it can't do anything to Groudon nor negate its weather.
If you are now using Kyogre, you have to get ride of Primal Groudon first or use your own primal against it. I didn't mention Mega Rayquaza because it will compete with Mega Salamence for a Mega Slot mainly who people consider better in most cases and being a mega, you would rather want to use Mega Gengar or any Mega Mewtwo.
If you are now using Kyogre, you have to get ride of Primal Groudon first or use your own primal against it. I didn't mention Mega Rayquaza because it will compete with Mega Salamence for a Mega Slot mainly who people consider better in most cases and being a mega, you would rather want to use Mega Gengar or any Mega Mewtwo.
Mega Rayquaza is still one of the best megas in the game but it needs to run Surf if you want to use it as a Groudon check (though if Groudon isn't running Dragon Claw it straight-up counters it).
I wouldn't say it is irrelevent:
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 179-211 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 131-155 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (remember that this will always outspeed primal don)
Specs Kyogre just outright 2HKOs it, even with a Timid nature which means Primal Groudon will probably be slower and will need a switch in to take the next one. Even then, it can't come in safely after Ice Beam number 1. Primal Groudon can also only come in on 1 Ice Beam from Choice Scarf Kyogre since it will always outspeed don and proceed to 2HKO it the second time it tries to come in. Normal Kyogre will be far from useless, it just won't be be as dominant as it was in the past.
If anything, we may see normal Kyogre drift much more heavily towards its Specs set > Scarf in order to help a partner wear down Primal Groudon although Specs is starting to pick up alot of usage over scarf anyways in XY.
i'm worried that Ubers teams are gonna be a b it Cookie Cutter, even more so than OU, well at least on the offense front.
GeoXern/PDon/Arceus form(Probably E-Killer)/Any of MRay,MMence,MMewtwoX/Y,MGengar/ two mons that differentiate your team from others, one of which will probably be some form of Kyogre.
I mean it'll still be as fun as Ubers always is, but teams kinda build themselves right now.
Although i ain't the most experienced Ubers player so feel free to correct me.
GeoXern/PDon/Arceus form(Probably E-Killer)/Any of MRay,MMence,MMewtwoX/Y,MGengar/ two mons that differentiate your team from others, one of which will probably be some form of Kyogre.
I mean it'll still be as fun as Ubers always is, but teams kinda build themselves right now.
Although i ain't the most experienced Ubers player so feel free to correct me.
Locking Kyogre into ice beam or HP ground will, most of the time, shift the momentum to your opponent's favor, especially against hyper offense team. Of course if kyogre can do decent damage to primal groudon with the aforementioned moves than a knowledgeable opponent will know to scout for it. But then you say what if kyogre go for a water move and so it's a "50-50", well tbh, "50-50" are part of the game and most of the time there is no 50-50 due to decision being made due to some prior experience or reasoning. (this is also a arguement for why shadow tag is a non-ban).
But the big thing here is that kyogre is either 1. Not able to do damage to primal groudon 2. Being lock into a non-stab move. Primal kyogre can at least force primal groudon to switch when p. kyogre switch in on p. groudon but they also have the same speed and groudon might have used RP so, kyogre is definitely in a weird place this gen.
Now, we know that Primal Kyogre can't spam water moves freely if the opponent has a Primal Groudon. So, why can't PK nail it with a Super Effective Earthquake off base 150 Attack instead (ofc this is assuming the opponent switches PG in)? PK then runs Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / Thunder / EQ or am I missing something here? Origin Pulse can still hit an incoming Ho-oh if it tries to be funny by switching into EQ.
Why not LO Kyogre?
0 Atk Primal Kyogre Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 136-162 (39.7 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 151-178 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 202-238 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earthquake is not worth for Primal Groudon, you better run Calm Mind or Hidden Power Ground instead.
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Doesn't primal Kyogre's ability overwrite groudon's when he's sent out? I think that's how you can KO Groudon with Water type moves.
Yes, but only when you switch-in Primal Kyogre on Primal Groudon. If you send Primal Groudon in on Primal Kyogre, PDon will be immune to Water-type moves.
Switching PK into PG is a really really bad idea since it can OHKO you with Precipice Blades.
252+ Atk Groudon-P Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-P : 301-355 (88.2 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Never said it was a good idea - just stated how the Primal weathers works oo
I know this isn't a Mega Evo but Game Freak confirmed on their website that Blaziken can now learn Ice Punch. This is a nice pickup since it slays Mega Salamence (who otherwise checks Blaziken pretty well) and does a bit more to Tina-O than Knock Off while wrecking poor Gliscor and Landorus-T.
You know, just in case you thought Blaziken was gonna be irrelevant in ORAS or something.
You know, just in case you thought Blaziken was gonna be irrelevant in ORAS or something.
The thing is, Gira-O is no longer reliable against it:
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 168-198 (38 - 44.8%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (aka no more ridiculous Speed Creep for Gira)
I found this this morning and I do have to say this is slightly concerning imo.
I honestly think Wobbuffet will be on every team as a 'fix-it' for PDon. It pretty much KOs him with Mirror Coat/Counter in retaliation to any attack PDon throws at it, and frees up a Mega slot so Mega Ray/Mence can be used; even offering Encore support for set-up opportunities. Running HP Ground Ogre is sorta stupid IMO, simply using STag alongside him is clearly the superior option. Choice Ogre is pretty much only viable now alongside a STag user since PDon is literally EVERYWHERE; but nonetheless, Kyogre will definitely benefit from Palkia usage dropping and also Arc-Water/Grass usage dropping, and will be nothing short of S-Rank in this meta.
is this confirmed already?
the new weather mechanism is the same as now(slower one will cover the faster one)
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