i kind of figured that massive ground spam might be a reason to use sceptile. but i guess shaymin s already exists if you want a fast offensive grass type, but iirc it's not super duper anyway
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion
- Thread starter Theorymon
- Start date
- Status
Mega Sceptile packs a x4 Water resistance + Ground resistance and has Dragon STAB. I wouldn't say Skymin outclasses it.
Rosen I don't think anyone has tried Mega Sceptile yet but a set of Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/Earthquake/Rock Slide with a Rash nature is probably a good place to start. It seems like it would be decently effective against a lot of the common offensive builds. I also think EQ > Focus Blast because of Klefki. Rock Slide lets you beat Ho-Oh. Being so fast also has its perks (you can still outrun Skymin with a Rash nature iirc)
Rosen I don't think anyone has tried Mega Sceptile yet but a set of Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/Earthquake/Rock Slide with a Rash nature is probably a good place to start. It seems like it would be decently effective against a lot of the common offensive builds. I also think EQ > Focus Blast because of Klefki. Rock Slide lets you beat Ho-Oh. Being so fast also has its perks (you can still outrun Skymin with a Rash nature iirc)
max rash sceppy outspeeds max timid skymin by 1 point oo
if what you claim is true, that it ohkos groudceus, primal groudon and kyogre is true, then I do believe it does have a place in uber. It can also outspeed and ohko mega gengar so there a grass type not mega gengar bait. Nice ability, nice typing, nice speed. and nice coverage. pretty good
4x weak to ice beam tho/
it does indeed. i love me the fuck out of mega sceptile when i attempt to partake in this tier being able to use it well would be neato. what good partners would be out there for it? aegislash seems pretty decent off the top of my head for handling xerneas/normal arceus. i think aegi can handle espeed arceus at least, unless it commonly runs eq? still ho-oh to worry about, i'd rather use substitute/giga drain on sceptile over rock slide if i can, and it's not like either can switch in anyway. what's a decent ho-oh check? rock arceus? gira? i basically have no idea how this tier functions but i want to use sceptile dammit
Aegislash shouldn't be used to check normal arceus they do commonly carry earthquake. to check ho-oh smart use of SR, there actually no good check for ho-oh.
the bird is too stronk
Also Rash Sceptile is slower than Jolly MEvoed Mega Ray. I tried putting Mega Sceptile on a ORAS HO team and it's just dead weight, although Canman did have a Genesect and no Kyogre.
gotcha. what about mewtwo/shadow ball though, is that a common thing or can aegislash usually check it reliably? also with sceptile/primal groudon shouldn't that turn into an ohko after sr? (on mobile so can't check calcs)
it slightly miss out on a guarantee ohko even with SR. aegislash generally fares well against mewtwo but not always. jirachi or yveltal is better for checking mewtwo.
this is actually not true
he meant sceptile before mega evolving versus mega ray (already mega evo'd)
Arceus-Rock checks Ho-oh quite well. It just needs to watch out for Earthquake. I believe Physically Defensive Yveltal also checks Ho-oh since it can recover lost HP with Roost and smack Ho-oh hard with Foul Play.
I think the over-the-top aspect of primal Groudon that makes him so ridiculously threatening is his immunity to both burn and t-wave. It may seem like an obvious point at first, but think about it - Arceus/Giratina willowisps and prankster t-waves have always been an almost 100% check to every set up sweeper out there: ekiller, xerneas, anything. Not to mention the random scald burns and sacred fires sprinkled in. Sure, you may end up sacrificing a 'mon to get that crucial status off but afterwards you can consider it a neutralized threat.
Groudon completely throws this out the window though. In terms of status, all you can do is toxic and wait it out, which is a pretty horrible strategy to cling to when he proceeds to wipe through 2 or 3 of your pokemons before succumbing to the poison and weak priority moves (100/160 phys defense remember, lol). So, anything that can't really threaten groudon with a really strong special attack or a ground stab is basically free set up, even if they get off a toxic or whatever. (And don't forget that toxic misses)
I think that paralysis is a somewhat underutilized status effect, and the obvious speed drop but more subtly the parahax chances, are extremely useful in ubers. In a meta where everything is advised to use missable moves like thunder and focus blast and fire blast, having that 25% hax chance can do all kinds of things in your games and skew probabilities. (I recently read a post that had carefully calculated the probabilties for parafusion to beat a chansey, lol) But obviously, in this particular case, it's more about the permanent speed loss, which can allow something fairly slow but strong on the special side to finish off Groudon.
To that end, I wanted to put forward the idea of ways to paralyze groudon despite his ground typing. That basically only leaves Glare, Stun Spore, and Body Slam as options, and it's pretty slim pickings.
So, although there are reliable options like Gyarados and Rayquaza for dealing with a boosted Groudon, there may be a scarce handful of other pokemon out there that can somewhat check groudon in their own way, like Whimsicott and Altaria.
That was a pretty longwinded post just to outline the possibilities of getting status on Groudon, but, that's really the way that I tend to play pokemon anyway and whether defensive playstyles will be a viable option or not remains to be seen. Hopefully all the offense players out there will do their best to force most groudons to only carry 1 boosting move instead of both :)
Groudon completely throws this out the window though. In terms of status, all you can do is toxic and wait it out, which is a pretty horrible strategy to cling to when he proceeds to wipe through 2 or 3 of your pokemons before succumbing to the poison and weak priority moves (100/160 phys defense remember, lol). So, anything that can't really threaten groudon with a really strong special attack or a ground stab is basically free set up, even if they get off a toxic or whatever. (And don't forget that toxic misses)
I think that paralysis is a somewhat underutilized status effect, and the obvious speed drop but more subtly the parahax chances, are extremely useful in ubers. In a meta where everything is advised to use missable moves like thunder and focus blast and fire blast, having that 25% hax chance can do all kinds of things in your games and skew probabilities. (I recently read a post that had carefully calculated the probabilties for parafusion to beat a chansey, lol) But obviously, in this particular case, it's more about the permanent speed loss, which can allow something fairly slow but strong on the special side to finish off Groudon.
To that end, I wanted to put forward the idea of ways to paralyze groudon despite his ground typing. That basically only leaves Glare, Stun Spore, and Body Slam as options, and it's pretty slim pickings.
So, although there are reliable options like Gyarados and Rayquaza for dealing with a boosted Groudon, there may be a scarce handful of other pokemon out there that can somewhat check groudon in their own way, like Whimsicott and Altaria.
That was a pretty longwinded post just to outline the possibilities of getting status on Groudon, but, that's really the way that I tend to play pokemon anyway and whether defensive playstyles will be a viable option or not remains to be seen. Hopefully all the offense players out there will do their best to force most groudons to only carry 1 boosting move instead of both :)
Primal Groudon just feels like Game Freak's attempt to make a Pokemon as grossly overpowered as possible. Give it just two weaknesses because of Fire/Ground typing, neuter its worst weakness in Water, make it immune to Thunder Wave and Will-o-wisp, give it stats that blow through the ceiling and every coverage/boosting move that it could dream of having, and bypass the Mega Evolution cost.
Does anything counter Primal Groudon? In fact, does anything that's relevant in Ubers even check this thing?
Does anything counter Primal Groudon? In fact, does anything that's relevant in Ubers even check this thing?
It can be offensively checked, any possible counters that I have considered are dependent on the set and / or on current battle circumstances.
groundceus + lugia > pdon
Agreed. Although, isn't the 110 benchmark pretty significant, if not only to out-speed MGar pre-MEvo (assuming it doesn't get banned)? Also, doesn't running max speed on Mega-Ray at least create the possibility of speed-ties with other max speed Mega-Rays?
Umm has anyone managed to build a stall team that doesn't insta lose to mgar and can cover all of the top threats?
Max Defense/HP Groundceus with Judgment/Recover beats every variation of Primal Don.
Edit: I meant to quote the post MS quoted, not his. lol.
252 SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground in Sun: 303-357 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Since you are running max defense for some reason you are slower and get killed. If you are going to use special Groundceus to check P Don, max defense is complete overkill; you are better off running speed and 36 SpA to ensure the OHKO with Judgment on offensive P Don. Even still P Don can Toxic your Groundceus on the switch and you are essentially running a dedicated check that is bait for many other mons, so it's not exactly a fantastic solution.
Since you are running max defense for some reason you are slower and get killed. If you are going to use special Groundceus to check P Don, max defense is complete overkill; you are better off running speed and 36 SpA to ensure the OHKO with Judgment on offensive P Don. Even still P Don can Toxic your Groundceus on the switch and you are essentially running a dedicated check that is bait for many other mons, so it's not exactly a fantastic solution.
- Status