Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #138)

[bo_bobson27]

The argument that Regidrago is Unhealthy because it "adds nothing" and has few hard counters is flawed. I can guarantee that all of your teams setguess at least one mon A rank or higher. I have been able to build with a lot of variety because I treat regidrago like any other top tier pokemon.

Main Drago sets: Scarf, AV, Specs, Band, Haban and to a much lesser extent scope lens, custap, dragon fang, yache, and weakness policy

There are a lot of pokemon that can beat 50% or more drago sets without much trouble ie most dragons, pecharunt, meowscarada, ursaluna, serperior, wellspring, volcarona, skeledirge, chien pao, porygonz and more. If you just setguess drago you allow yourself far more versatility in the builder, and you can actually get better previews against drago instead of the 5050 you get with fairy type teams. By running 2-3 mons that could beat some dragos you force your opponent to guess which one you will pick. Furthermore, as drip mentioned, setguessing drago is not particularly difficult, especially guessing scarf vs not scarf. This is not all that different from guessing encore disable vs offensive valiant, choiced vs not choiced volcanion, or scarf vs stall cress etc. Therefore, you do not need a hard counter to drago on every team.

To say that regidrago adds nothing the tier is objectively false. The fact that we are discussing it here is proof of that. You have to get creative to beat it with non fairy/steel types. Frankly, if you just want to slap mons together without building new sets, you cant complain about how drago is limiting creativity.

I still support a drago suspect since it seems there is a large amount of support for it, but I will be voting do not ban.

 

[bern]

time to talk about these

After a whole PL, UMPL and WC (19 sets in total) of games of 1v1, I believed I had made my opinion on Regidrago extremely clear. But now that it's my number one used pokemon, I can say for certain that... this pokemon ain't it guys.

Simply put, there will always be a Dragon that does its job better at least in one aspect, and Regidrago can only be stretched so thin... Walking Wake is faster and has the water typing that allows it to deal with Ice-types more easily, Raging Bolt and Goodra-Hisui are slower than Drago but they have important secondary typings that set them apart. As for physical Dragon-types, Haxorus, Dragapult and Garchomp seem to do its job just fine, with Haxorus having a humongo attack stat and access to good coverage, and the latter two having good STAB options.

What I'm trying to get at here is that banning Regidrago will not be an improvement nor a detriment for the SV 1v1 metagame. It will change nearly nothing aside from other Dragon-types and Volcanion rising in usage. We will continue to see DFS and we will continue to see DFF, which is the big argument that the pro-suspect is going for, which was that the Regidrago ban would lower the usage of these archetypes, when it's clearly not the case.

Saying that Regidrago adds absolutely nothing to the tier is like saying ostriches actually stick their heads under the sand to try to not be detected when it senses danger, it just isn't true. I don't need to say anything to prove that it doesn't, just like how bo said, merely speaking of the pokemon is proof enough, if you really think that Regidrago adds nothing to the tier then either teambuilding skill issue (you only use fairies and steels to try to beat it instead of literally any other pokemon like any of the ones that bo said), or... nah i can only think of that.

I don't think this will be the end of the Regidrago discussion, even if it ends up getting suspected or banned, people love complaining because anger is the most easily spreadable thought, as when an argument starts more people will jump in an argument and people get angrier and more people jump in and etcetera, regardless, an OTR post was definitely the way to go. So if it wasn't clear, I will be voting Do Not Suspect for Regidrago.


I won't go too deep into crown discussion since I don't think even I am ready for the crown discussion myself, everyone in council kind of agreed it could do a lot and wanted to see what the community would say. That's just kinda how council works, we discuss the meta, we bring pokemon to your attention, and then we have people state their opinions through surveys or, in this case, an OTR. I will also be voting DNS merely because i want to see more of Iron Crown and what it can do.


here are other pokemon


You can say this pokemon is similar to regidrago, it would be a wrong assessment but it wouldn't be too far off... Boasting the same speed tier, insane attacking stats, poor physical bulk, and the best special bulk in the tier, it beats fairies with gunk dude!!! it can even tech some bugs like scizor with fire punch it's gotta be broken right no. not only is scizor fraudulent now (being aware of scizor's existence means it's no longer good, it's only decent as a glue) which means fire punch is fraudulent, but also this mon also has kinda the same opportunity cost as drago, only on a way higher degree and yeah that's about it lol.

that fucking pokemon that i hate
In no competitive 1v1 environment should this pokemon EVER be allowed, be it mid or not. the 1/6 chance pokemon is a testament to how newer people in the community wanted to ban Sneasler merely because of dire claw, except this is an actual decent pokemon, with stall capabilities and a decentish movepool. There are few hard counters to this thing because you rely on sheer luck, and you can tech most steels with curse as well so like what is even the point of frickin trying, the only hard counters are like, what, agility corv? and i guess hoopa-u? this guy is really bulky too so like it's gonna have to take a few hits before going down. This is the only mon i would've voted to take action had it been on the OTR.


brief, it's a really good pokemon and it will forever stay that way, not banworthy for now but it might be later, i think i've heard some people saying like "oh prim can never be banworthy" but that's a sentiment i'm strongly against, cuz like, why would it not be banworthy, even if it's a good glue if there's something there needs to be done about it it will be done, building with it still feels like cheating lmfao.

anyway i'm gonna look for my college requirements see you guys later

 

[Elo Bandit]

Regidrago is unhealthy and should be suspected because it has a distinct lack of real counters. Even Fairy-types have to run specific sets to avoid cheese from Regidrago's arsenal. Choice Band or Weakness Policy boosted Earthquake, Thunder Fang, Giga Impact, Dragon Dance, Reflect, and Light Screen alongside a Dragon's Maw STAB allows Regidrago to flip almost any check or counter while maintaining its core matchups. I struggle to find any non-Fairy type (does Scarf PR Meowscarada count?) that consistently beats all Regidrago sets.

 

[Untitled Goose]

While I'd like another suspect and probably a ban, my actual opinion on Drago is a bit more on the fence tbh.

On one hand, Regidrago has very obvious and strong answers. It's very easy and natural to slot Primarina or Iron Valiant onto many teams, so it's not like when you're building you'll feel like you're struggling to beat Drago. Building with Regidrago also doesn't feel too dominating. You can't just start with Regidrago and get a strong team, when you lock in to the set you want to run, you still have a significant list of pokemon you want to cover, and it can be somewhat difficult to truly abuse Regidrago's presence at team preview and force your opponent into some difficult set-guessing.

However, these natural answers are relatively limited and sometimes just bad. Looking at the VR from C- up there are 10 Fairy-types. We have (and let's be honest we barely load some of these). While Steel-types are also very good at checking Drago, they're not nearly as consistent, Fast or Bulky Band and Specs can often muscle through these Pokemon, especially if they load the wrong sets. Same for some of the other Drago checks, when they encounter Haban or AV sets where Drago can utilize its bulk, breaking swipe, and scale shot to overpower these opponents. This means you can both start and make an easy team of Drago + Drago Beater + Drago Beater Beater or you can add a more custom Drago on to core you like to beat a threat list that doesn't include any fairies.

Then from there Regidrago will pretty much always impact your team previews leading to the infamous 50/50 previews. While good players can almost certainly setguess the Drago, it still always puts in some work and never feels like just not helpful, even if it literally will never 3-0.

What this all boils down to essentially is Regidrago's net metagame impact, where a lot of teams feel a lot more limited. Fairy-types are good yes, but they feel over represented in the metagame. 55% of World Cup teams had a fairy type, 45% had a steel-type, and 84% had a Fairy or Steel Type. For comparison Water-types were in 50% with 12 viable Pokemon C- and up (despite the fact that the two most used pokemon in WC were both water types.)

WC Usage by type

 

[bellchime]

I've sorta re-evaluated my stance on the metagame quite a lot, given that I'm organically building again, but I'm supporting a Regidrago suspect at this moment. The community support for it seems pretty visible, and not supporting it just feels like a rehash of the "council believes that the public of 1v1 at large does not know what is best for itself" line.

I will most likely be voting do not ban on Regidrago. I personally would like to see it be banned, and think that I would enjoy the metagame more without Regidrago, but that entire line of thinking is purely speculation. It's 100% possible to creatively check Regidrago in the builder, and people are just unwilling to setguess it, but despite it being hard to setguess, it's still possible to setguess it. Creative building does go a far way in actually countering Regidrago, as I have learned...

I've said this before, but I still do think that Iron Crown and Hoopa-Unbound are bigger issues in the current metagame, and would like to see them, especially Iron Crown, suspected before Regidrago.

(also I think bo really puts everything I want to say about Regidrago into words, his post is really nice)


Update: A very good friend has pointed out to me how contradictory this post is at times so I should probs elaborate my preferred course of action a bit.

What I want council to do...

1. Suspect Regidrago. I will be voting DNB.
2. Take a close look at Iron Crown and Hoopa-Unbound slightly afterwards, at some point during a theoretical timeframe of Global Cup.
3. idk profit


What I would like to happen...

1. Suspect Iron Crown. I will be voting Ban.
2. Take a close look at Hoopa-U, Pecharunt, and Regidrago slightly afterwards, at some point during a theoretical timeframe of Global Cup.
3. idk profit.

hope that helps.

 

[fake tom numbers]

people are just unwilling to setguess it, but despite it being hard to setguess, it's still possible to setguess it.

I can guarantee that all of your teams setguess at least one mon A rank or higher. I have been able to build with a lot of variety because I treat regidrago like any other top tier pokemon.

Genuinely, who is saying that drago is hard to setguess?? I have read most posts here and I've found only one person who has said that it's "difficult" to setguess (which objectively is pretty wrong, most of the time it's used as a third=holds the team together=obvious set, and besides most mons in SV are pretty easy to setguess unlike previous generations because the meta is so centralized).

EVERY SINGLE PERSON that says that they want Drago banned say that finding consistent answers to it is the main problem, I'm not sure if yall actually read any posts here.

If you just setguess drago you allow yourself far more versatility in the builder, and you can actually get better previews against drago instead of the 5050 you get with fairy type teams. By running 2-3 mons that could beat some dragos you force your opponent to guess which one you will pick. Furthermore, as drip mentioned, setguessing drago is not particularly difficult, especially guessing scarf vs not scarf. This is not all that different from guessing encore disable vs offensive valiant, choiced vs not choiced volcanion, or scarf vs stall cress etc.

Yeah, but you only make your own team weaker and easier to setguess/cteam. Not running a Fairy or Steel can make it quite obvious what sets you have (unless you don't build for drago, even though it's one of the most used mons in the tier???) and generally because these other mons don't naturally beat drago, your team will either have to overcompensate (which can backfire if they don't bring drago) or you undercompensate, which only makes your team get soft 3-0d by drago.

You have to get creative to beat it with non fairy/steel types. Frankly, if you just want to slap mons together without building new sets, you cant complain about how drago is limiting creativity.

Creative building does go a far way in actually countering Regidrago, as I have learned...

What "creative" ways have you found to consistently beat Regidrago that haven't already been mentioned?

To say that regidrago adds nothing the tier is objectively false. The fact that we are discussing it here is proof of that.

Can you tell us in what ways Regidrago adds to SV? Unlike in SS where some mons were used for good matchups into team archetypes (sawk for dfs, goodra for fwg, etc) and where Regidrago also had a niche there by breaking through specific teams, SV has none of that. Because there's such a limited pool of viable mons compared to SS, all Regidrago does in SV is restrict teambuilding and force even more 50-50s. (also yeah regidrago obviously adds something to the tier, every mon does. its pretty obvious to assume that i meant that drago adds nothing positive to the tier, unless you have some examples of drago being healthy)

Also, please don't say that "you dont need a consistent regidrago answer on every team", not only is Drago one of the most used mons in the format despite being mediocre, I can literally look back on most of your posts wanting to ban Arch, Ogerpon-H and Gouging and will find that the main argument was the limited number of mons that could consistently beat them. Meanwhile Drago has half the consistent answers of something like Arch, but apparently everyone who wants Drago banned now are too unwilling to setguess and it's a skill issue that we can't find "creative" ways to consistently beat Drago.

 

[bo_bobson27]

Archaludon was broken. The argument here is not that drago is broken. Setguessing arch was very difficult because it could fit on every team and had like 8 sets that saw significant usage. Not to mention that it had double drago's usage. Archaludon's main sets were also more powerful than Regidrago's main sets. It did not have linear counters and often could force its hard counters to go out of their way to consistently win. The same idea applies to gouging and pretty much all the pokemon that have been banned. Although I wouldn't categorize hearth as broken because it didn't have any really strong sets. Drago does not fit on many teams; pretty much all drago teams are structurally very similar, and while it doesn't have many hard counters, they also don't take much opportunity cost to win. Even the pokemon I mentioned that beat some drago sets take little to no opportunity cost to do so.

When I say you need to be creative, I mean you need to try different team structures and new cores, and that often means you need to build new sets and try new pokemon to fill in the gaps. Regidrago does not stop you from doing that if you build around a setguess when needed.
Example: Meowscarada + Ursaluna. Neither of these pokemon hard counter drago, but somehow drago is hard to click. This is what I was trying to say in my initial post. You don't have a fairy or steel type on this team, and you don't need one. You aren't making teams weak to drago, or any other pokemon for that matter, by building around a setguess. I think finding these kinds of cores creates fresh and unique team structures and keeps the meta interesting. On the other hand, it is generally more complicated to make teams like this, and I know a lot of players don't have the time for it.

yeah regidrago obviously adds something to the tier, every mon does. its pretty obvious to assume that i meant that drago adds nothing positive to the tier

We ban pokemon if they are broken or uncompetitive, because those are objective measures of a pokemon's influence on the meta. Unless we are now playing guilty until proven innocent, I see no reason to provide examples of "healthy" influence as opposed to disproving the alleged unhealthy influence.

I used to be pro ban on drago before pl because I saw how few hard counters it had. After building a ton of teams and gaining a better understanding of the meta, I realized it's not that simple to assess how powerful a pokemon is. The power and versatility of individual sets, and the versatility of a pokemon as a whole, are important factors that I did not consider. The more versatile a pokemon is, the more easily it fits on teams, and the more difficult it is to hard counter it with low opportunity cost. If a pokemon has strong sets, it also fits on teams more easily but is generally easy to counter with low opportunity cost if it is not also versatile. Pokemon with high versatility usually do not also have strong sets and vice versa. Drago is an unusual mix of both. I would say that it has strong sets, but not on the level of other banned pokemon, and it has low versatility within each set but high versatility when looking at all sets. It is zero opportunity cost to hard counter, but there are so few hard counters that it sometimes forces a setguess anyway, and yet it is easy to setguess with low opportunity cost because the individual sets are low versatility. The bottom line is that the effective number of counters is increased because setguessing drago is actually feasible. I probably would not have made this kind of argument in the past because I did not think that setguessing was a competitive strategy. However, it really can't be avoided and is a very effective teambuilding tool.

 

[bellchime]

I used to be pro ban on drago before pl because I saw how few hard counters it had. After building a ton of teams and gaining a better understanding of the meta, I realized it's not that simple to assess how powerful a pokemon is. The power and versatility of individual sets, and the versatility of a pokemon as a whole, are important factors that I did not consider.

Gonna respond to the Tom numbers post because I got pinged in it too.

Bo sorta went over exactly what I wanted to say about creativity, but I also disagree with the point that teams that are easy to setguess are inherently weaker teams.

Setguessing Drago is not that hard if you take time to look at how teams are structurally composed. Since Fairy-types are such a hard counter, however, people aren’t always incentivized to do so, unlike how they are for other Pokémon like Iron Crown or Primarina, for example. It’s so easy to just have a fairy as a slapstick answer to Regidrago, but having two Pokémon on preview to discourage a Regidrago click is often good enough. As an example, I was trying to build a team with Landorus-T and Hisuian Goodra recently, which makes clicking Regidrago really hard. For something like Iron Crown, for example, people oftentimes run a counter to the WP sets and then a counter to the other sets next to it. Of course, this sort of structure is necessary a lot of the time if you’re not using a Fairy-type, but there are a lot of Pokémon that have the exact same thing as Regidrago, but having the lazy counter of having a Fairy-type on every team seems to make people think about Regidrago differently.

 

[DEG]

Example: Meowscarada + Ursaluna. Neither of these pokemon hard counter drago, but somehow drago is hard to click.

Technically not hard to click. The Regidrago user is aware of their own set while other isn't 100% sure. The Regidrago user dictates the preview picking in this case and it makes the preview hard to click for the opponent not Regidrago user.

Just wanted to point out this.

 

[Untitled Goose]

There's a little bit more time, so I wanted to put in the case for specifically a retest before OTR ended. I wanted to put this earlier, but I got busy.

Fundamentally Regidrago is a hard pokemon to work with in the context of metagame balance. It is extremely powerful, has fantastic bulk, has great utility attacks, and excels as a mixed attacker with mixed offenses and high BP STABs on top of a boosting ability. Furthermore, thanks to its typing and its sets variety the counterplay is very defined to specifics in the type chart. Steels and Fairies are very good types already but they often feel "required", as there's not many other consistent ways to just outright beat Regidrago. The other option is to of course split your Regidrago checks across multiple pokemon, but even that can be somewhat difficult as you're almost certainly splitting along lines of beating scarf / non-scarf, which will leave you vulnerable to a Band, Specs, or AV set depending on how you answer the non-scarf. All of this boils down to the fact that it's easy for Regidrago to have dramatic affects on teambuiliding.

Furthermore, building with Regidrago, can be extremely rewarding and powerful when you lean into what Regidrago wants to do.
We've mentioned this before. Drip, during the last suspect, (see here), mentioned how popular teams during 2023 PL were Drago + Volcarona + Corvi because teams who wanted to answer drago, would naturally have weaknesses to Corvi and Volcarona. Similarly, during this WC, Drago + Volcanion + Valiant teams rose to popularity simply because of how rewarding these teams are.

Now none of this is my point. We've talked to death about all of these factors already, both in this thread and in others at different times. (here, here, here, here), but I'm bringing it all up to point out the fact that nothing about Regidrago itself has fundamentally changed. However, the metagame has significantly changed, especially from when it was first tested.

I had personally mentioned back pre-Arch test (here), how Regidrago felt very limited in what it could realistically do. While none of its tools have changed, its opportunity cost from switching between items since that post has all but completely evaporated. Banning Hearthflame and banning Gouging Fire has allowed for a metagame where Regidrago is able to finally do everything it wants to do, without worrying about being overly punished by other top pokemon. Regidrago doesn't care that Primarina or Iron Crown are top threats now, because Regidrago has never cared about those pokemon being top threats. It has teammates that can beat those pokemon for it. (*cough volcanion cough*). This is fundamentally different, then when Arch, Hearthflame, and Gouging Fire were the best pokemon in the tier. Those pokemon meaningfully interacted with Regidrago, forcing specific sets from Regidrago that wanted to help beat those pokemon on preview or force the the player to accrue the significant opportunity cost from not running that set. Haban Drago usage is down signficantly. Scarf Regidrago usage is down significantly. Band, Specs, AV, Weakness Policy Thunder Fang/Hyper Beam, are all up because Regidrago can do whatever the fuck it wants to do and get rewarded for it.

I'm sorry if this post comes off ramble-y, but I'm busy.

I will be voting for a re-test.

 

[neomon]

I have had my mind made up about wanting Regidrago resuspected or not since before the Gouging Fire test and it hasn't changed. But the discussion in this thread brought me to a point where I really want to understand the DNS/DNB side of the argument, to maybe improve my understanding on tiering policy for future decisions. The goal of this post is to objectively target the seperate points in the tiering policy framework. I'll try and follow it up with some Regidrago replays from the last few months and try and map out my thoughts about the previews and how Regidrago actively affects them.

Tiering Policy

I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.

• Some exceptions exist, such Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause (RBY / GSC), but they are to be avoided as much as possible.
• Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering proposals.

This has no relevance to the Regidrago topic.

II.) We cater to both ladder players (the higher end of the ladder) and tournament players.

• For actions to be taken in tiering policy, it is important to show how that action affects BOTH the ladder scene and the tournament scene.
• Stats for both will be highly emphasized but not a sole determining factor.

III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo.

• The status quo can be changed in certain cases, such as new game releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-U in ORAS, which started directly in OU, unlike other 680-BST legendaries, which start in Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
• This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
• "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.

V.) Team matchup management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that it's possible we will be at an advantage or disadvantage from the very beginning.
• With optimal team building skills, the pool of options (Pokemon, moves, items) present in the tier should allow you to build teams addressing the different team archetypes at least decently and offer a solution in-battle to a large majority of the principle threats of the metagame.

VI.) Even though some of these assumptions limit us, we will, within those limitations, work to maximize the concept of "player skill" determining the result of a match the majority of the time.

• The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those three constructs.
  • If Shadow Tag reduces the battling skill component too much via removing smart switching and reducing the ability to assess risk, these should be mentioned when stating Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy.
  • If Toxapex is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy, point out how it reduces player skill from being the major determining factor in a match and which component of skill it drastically takes away from

Definitions of Tiering Policy

Definitions for Tiering Policy:

Skill

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.

• Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
  
  • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
  • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
  • Creativity
  • Catering to Metagame / Opponents
  • Picking the Right Lead
  • Recognizing the Win Condition
  • Picking the Right Move
  • Smart Switching
  • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
  • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
  • Assessing Risk
  • Probability Management
  • Prediction

Does Regidrago impact teambuilding or battling skill? Due to its sheer power Regidrago forces a few select mons onto teams if you want a reliable match-up into it. The list of those mons would be:

hard Regidrago counters

	Primarina
	Corviknight (Maranga)
	Iron Valiant
	Metagross (AB)
	Landorus-Therian (AV)
	Sylveon
	Ninetales-Alola
	Azumarill
	Diancie
	Whimsicott
	Fezandipiti
	Tinkaton (AB)
	Enamorus
	Carbink
	Florges
	Gardevoir
	Klefki
	Weezing-Galar

As seen in this list, there's a few mons that are forced into a specific item to beat Regidrago reliably even with an advantageous type match-up. The lower end of this list actively can handicap your building due to their unique qualities or the lack thereof. So as shown, there is 8 mons above C-Rank in the VR that can beat every Regidrago formation without being forced into running a specific item with tailored EV's to ensure the Regidrago matchup. LandoT, Metagross and Corviknight are all limited in their 'creativity' if you elect to use them as your dedicated Regidrago answer. 90 Pokemon are ranked above D-Rank in SV 1v1, 60 Above C-Rank. 8/60 (13%).
Let's compare it to a different controversial pokemon in the Metagame explicitly in team-building skill/limitations.
Iron Crown has as of recently been recognized by the community as an unhealthy/broken Pokemon (the definition is not the point of this post, the point is also not to show if Regidrago is more or less broken than Iron Crown, this is just to showcase a comparable number)
Above C-Rank Iron Crown has

Reliable Iron Crown beaters

	Hoopa-Unbound
	Metagross
	Ursaluna (Bulletproof)
	Landorus-Therian
	Ogerpon-Wellspring
	Volcanion (LO Flame Charge)
	Volcarona
	Skeledirge
	Spectrier
	Moltres-Galar (AV)
	Scizor (AV)
	Garchomp
	Heatran

It has 10 mons that beat it reliably without going out of their way to beat it. The rest is also forced to run sets specific sets to not be unreliable. 9/60 (15%). By sheer numbers this seems about as restrictive as Regidrago is in the Teambuilder. So why is it Regidrago as it stands is being perceived as fine in the Teambuilder but Iron Crown is being viewed as being overwhelming?
The 8 Pokemon listed above as hard Regidrago counters often naturally find their way onto teams due to checking a wide variety of mons outside of Regidrago. Often, they function as your Fighting-Type and generally Dragon-type answer not only Regidrago. So the argument can be made even if Regidrago were to be banned from the Metagame, the teambuilding would still be closely knit to Fairy-types and requiring them on teams. I think that this can only be an assumption, that there is no real way to know if its true until the situation actually takes place.

Regidrago sets seperately can all be answered by Pokemon that aren't limited to being Fairy- or Steel-Type. This is where the battling skill comes into play. Making assumptions is not only encouraged but quiet frankly necessary in situations where you resort to Iron Hands, Sneasler or Glastrier being your Regidrago counter. As outlined here, Prediction and Making Assumptions are critical parts of battling skill. So recognizing if your opponents Regidrago is Choice Specs or Choice Band should be a valid part of the game. Where it gets more sticky though is in the details. Regidrago can easily change up its attacking moves, Tyranitar for example could be a great Regidrago answer. Regidrago can opt to run Hammer Arm, same with Scizor for which it can run Fire Fang. Even more detailled is recognizing if Regidrago is a bulky Band variant or a stronger one. Bulky CB Regidrago can make lots of intially reliable MUs into Choice Band Drago suddenly flip without a lot of opportunity cost. Suddenly Ursaluna or Donphan become disadvantageous matchups, mons which should usually beat Choice Band Regidrago.
Taking into account sets running Breaking Swipe, it gains similar matchups to Bulky Band, mostly physical attackers that try to hit Regidrago with a super-effective move and kill it. So while on a surface level Regidrago encourages Teambuilding skill, in depth it can be hard to interpret.

On the other hand the Regidrago can be put in a similar predicament. All the matchups that dont reliably beat Regidrago, the Regidrago user in turn has a harder time figuring out if the set that was brought can achieve its intended purpose. This can be reffered to as battling skill again. Regidrago isn't really a Pokemon many things can easily EV for.

Uncompetitive

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

• This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
• This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
• This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

None of these points are relevant to the Regidrago case as far as I can tell.

Broken

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

• These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
• These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
  • Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
  • While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.

Regidrago doesn't dictate or require usage, it doesn't force niche Pokemon onto teams (think Dachsbun to Counter Koraidon). It forces some Pokemon to run specific spreads/items to be reliable into Regidrago as listed above. Pokemon like Tinkaton or Registeel would much rather run a different item to Air Balloon, Meowscarada hates to run Choice Scarf, and often it just decides to run Band and setguess the Choice Scarf/Custap Sets. Haxorus is a lot better at running a Choice Band set due to its Movepool and sheer power. But to be reliable into Regidrago it is forced to run Choice Scarf Unnerve. These arent niche Pokemon in their own right but they can be required to run suboptimal/objectively worse sets in order to guarantee the Regidrago matchup.

Unhealthy

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

• These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
• This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
• This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
• When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

The first point here seems pretty fitting. The combination of the 2 seperate Topics in the Skill Spoiler add up to make Regidrago a nuisance for a large portion of the playerbase.
The metagame being too centralized is not really the best argument to make here. We have seen situations where lower ranked threats can be used to great success. Generally speaking though the metagame is centralized to where I personally feel at a disadvantage not using the same rotation of 40 or so mons generally speaking. This isnt quantifyable in any way and isn't supposed to fuel this argument.

To finish off this post I would like to look at some replays that showcase Regidrago into teams without a Fairy-Type. Those teams either resort to a reliable Steel-Type into Regidrago, or try and split its matchups into 2 or 3.

Replay analysis

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2250542486
Nuxl's team:Regidrago / Primarina / Hoopa-Unbound
subscripts's team:Iron Moth / Iron Crown / Landorus-Therian
The Regidrago counter was split between mons presumably, the team the Regidrago was on makes it not identifyable. The LandoT wasnt made to be reliable into Regidrago. 2 mons that can beat Regidrago and yet the matchup was still lost to it. Deterring battling/building skill.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2245992456
ZackPalace's team:Regidrago / Diancie / Manaphy
Nuxl's team:Iron Crown / Chien-Pao / Raging Bolt
Nuxl's team splits the Regidrago matchup. Chien-Pao beats all sets bar Scarf, whereas Iron Crown takes care of Scarf. Nuxl identifies this correctly (also due to knowing the team already) and gets an advantage this way.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2216603476
neomon's team:Iron Valiant / Regidrago / Hoopa-Unbound
jack-o-lanbern's team:Metagross / Ursaluna / Walking Wake
bern brings a team that can beat regidrago with every single mon. Clicking regidrago gets detered that way even though there is no 'reliable' counter.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2216607738
neomon's team:Annihilape / Regidrago / Iron Crown
jack-o-lanbern's team:Regidrago / Scizor / Volcanion
Neither team opts to run a fairy type. Neomons team chose to split regidrago matchups, this is exactly the kind of team choice specs regidrago has a great time against.
(teams without a fairy but a CLEAR RELIABLE drago counter (corvi))
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2241480979
happysh's team:Porygon2 / Corviknight / Regidrago
Nuxl's team:Porygon-Z / Metagross / Regidrago
neither team opts to run a fairy, one runs a complete Regidrago counter in Corviknight, the other team opts for Metagross due to such similar teams both players opt agains choosing Regidrago. There is many ways it could end up not winning here on both sides and this makes both players choose against picking it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2259200754
Elian's team:Regidrago / Skeledirge / Chien-Pao
Nuxl's team:Pecharunt / Incineroar / Corviknight
Nuxl has a reliable Drago counter here in Corviknight, opts to click Incineroar though and loses to Regidrago.

While this is only 4 replays it was important to me to showcase either side of the argument. People get punished for not running a Fairy-type, people get rewarded for not running a Fairy-type. The rest is for everyone else to make their mind up to. I for my part am more worried about how hard one can punished for not bringing a hard counter. Seemingly/Provenly skillful players can get punished for trying to express their 'battling' skill or are forced to stick to a small number of pokemon that prevents this from happening as stated in the tiering policy outlines. This to me shows as problematic for the metagame and playerbase.

 

[Felucia]

Big thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. After the deadline passed, the 1v1 council voted on whether to suspect test Regidrago. The result of this vote is that there will not be any action taken against Regidrago right now.

Council also doesn't believe anything else mentioned on OTR warrants immediate action, there will most likely be a survey after world cup concludes to gauge where the community stands on those issues.

 

[Untitled Goose]

GOOOOOOOOD MORNING 1v1!

With the conclusion of 2025, the council has elected to reopen the On The Radar thread. While there are a handful of pokemon that warrant some closer looks, we'd like to focus on our two most controversial and the two most powerful aspects of the metagame: Hoopa-Unbound and Custap Berry. On The Radar will be open until Monday 22nd at 11:59 PM UTC in order to gather more opinions on these Pokémon, but feel free to mention anything else you feel particularly strongly about if you think it's worthy of being brought to council's attention


Hoopa-U has been one of the strongest pokemon in SV 1v1 for a long time and for good reason. It has a strong offensive and defensive typing, sky high mixed attack stats, strong and versatile STAB move options, strong coverage move options, all of which allows for a mixed variety of sets like Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Custap Berry, Assault Vest, Sitrus Berry, and more. Hoopa-U has virtually maximum freedom to pick and choose what it beats and what it loses to. Moreso while Hoopa-U has counterplay, that counterplay is weird. Hoopa-U has a very weak defense stat that can be exploited by powerful physical attackers, and it also has a 4x weakness to bug which allows for random pokemon to just add U-turn or another physical bug type attack on to their set to OHKO it. All of this can amount to tremendous strain in builder when trying to prep for Hoopa-U and can prove restrictive in teambuilding. However, many argue that because Hoopa-U has such a big Achilles heel, there are enough ways to prep against Hoopa-U, so that it's not really that bad. Also, Hoopa-U can still only run 1 item slot and 4 moves, and so while it can theoretically beat a lot of the metagame, it's often restricted in matches themselves, and it's battle presence is often lessened. Because of all of this we want to have a focused discussion on whether or not Hoopa-U actually crosses over the line from balanced to broken, and if it's deserving of a suspect test.


Custap berry is an item everyone knows. It has an absurdly strong vanilla effect by flipping the turn order allowing a slow pokemon to move first, but it also has tons of different synergies from Torrent and Blaze to Reversal. It's defined many top tier pokemon's sets from Primarina to Urshifu to Ursaluna. There's also the matter in how Custap matches play out; an opponent who knows you're running Custap can beat you, but it often involves weird or un-intuitive lines and decisions and can still be ruined by unlucky double endures. Nonetheless, on it's own it has never proven to be the thing that pushed multiple Pokemon over the edge, and non-pokemon elements are generally held to a higher degree of scrutiny when being evaluated for a ban. Furthermore, Custap Berry has been suspected once before in the DLC 2 metagame, and this would be a re-test. Even if you expressed your opinion back then, we'd like everyone to contribute and have a discussion on not why Custap berry may or may not be needed to be re-tested.

Council would like to hear from the you, the community, to help inform us on the road ahead. Although you are free to talk about Pokémon not mentioned above, remember to keep discussion constructive and respectful, and work towards helping us make good, informed decisions about 1v1's future. Any posts that don't work towards that goal will be deleted, this includes one-liners.

 

[Indi01]

Heylo, thanks to everyone who read my summary of the results from the recent tiering survey :) I'll be reiterating much of the personal opinions I stated from that, such as: I am currently NOT in favor of a suspect for BOTH custap berry and Hoopa-U.

From my viewpoint as someone who builds my own teams for both ladder and tour games, I do not find either custap or Hoopa to wield such overwhelming presence that it forces me to actively build against them specifically. Yes, both do require something on my team of 3 mons to be able to beat them, however, it does not have greater priority over other "high-tier" mons/items that would make them appear broken; I still need to remain vigilant of mons like Ursaluna, Primarina, etc, but I don't need to sacrifice losing to these mons just to cover for potential Hoopas from my opponents. Looking back to mons like Archaludon and Gouging Fire, I would often have at least 1 mon that should beat them through type-advantage, and another mon with some standard or funky set that beats their commonly used sets. Here is where I think custap/Hoopa fall short, and are in my eyes something that needs to be considered when teambuilding, but not to a extreme degree.

Additionally, when using either Hoopa or custap on my own teams, and sometimes even custap Hoopa if I wanna be tooootally original, I never feel as though using them allows for much advantage vs an opposing team that is not using custap/Hoopa. Given how custap can drastically change the value of slow bulky mons specifically for the 1v1 format as opposed to 6v6, you'd think it would have a immensely high usage for all the slow mons. However, with examples such as Primarina and Ursaluna, these mons often run other items, favoring items that improve bulk or offense, rather than priority. As stated in the tiering survey summary, I had found a sharp decline in custap Primarina usage, with a much greater focus on life orb, policy, and specs. This example reflects how even though Primarina is still running Torrent for most of these sets, it does not need custap berry to bring out the ability's full potential. Hence, while custap is definitely a strong item, I feel as though it does not elevate the performance of the mons it is often paired with to a competitively broken degree.

However, I do acknowledge that my extreme cteamy building style does allow for me to essentially ignore the potential threats of Hoopa/custap if I don't consider them something my opponent will bring. For most builders I assume, their teams need to cover for a much wider range of mons/sets than I do, and custap/Hoopa are often a possible hurdle than can be an annoyance to circumvent for a potential matchup. Therefore, don't just take my words with a grain of salt, use a 50 lb (22.6 kg) paper bag of Chef's Quality All Purpose Salt from your local food services vendor, because my opinions should not influence your opinions any more than your own experiences with ladder/tours/building; whether Hoopa/custap gets suspected or not, as a 1v1 player I am enthusiastic for the future of the metagame however it may come to be.

Stay sharp, and remember to mirror armor your corviknights (especially if custap gets banned)

 

[frogfacts]

The above post and most posts i've seen defending custap fundamentally misunderstand the reason why Custap should be banned. I've been told we ran into the same problem during the Regidrago discourse where people think that if using a mon isn't an overwhelming broken force then it isn't even worthy of a suspect.
Nobody who's actually in favour of a custap suspect is saying custap is some overwhelming broken force. The whole point is that custap messes with the game in these small but super annoying ways, both in the builder and in actual matches (just like regidrago did). This isn't about “brokenness”, it's about the impact it has.

Stop wasting time by completely ignoring the arguments against custap and instead focusing on some metric of "Competitive Brokennes". People dont want custap banned for the same reason they wanted Gouging Fire banned.

Secondly,
> Given how custap can drastically change the value of slow bulky mons specifically for the 1v1 format as opposed to 6v6, you'd think it would have a immensely high usage for all the slow mons

Item usage arguments don't really mean anything here. You can't even tell if an item got used or not, because 2 out of 3 mons never get revealed, and even the revealed one doesn't always show its item. Unless you're literally going through every replay and proving that a mon couldn't possibly be custap and would've used something else, the argument has basically no weight. And honestly, the rarer custap gets in practice, the stronger it actually becomes, because teams that ignore custap prim/ursa/etc usually have checks that just lose to custap versions. We've literally got multiple replays of this happening in tour games over the past few months.

This isn't Archaludon, this isnt Genesect, this isn't Meloetta. If anything it's just Regidrago discourse all over again. People want custap gone because it's just awful to actually prep for and annoying to play against, since it warps how you have to approach certain mons.

Cosigned by valin

 

[LongRat]

My words are often ineloquent so I make this post concise. I am not in favour of suspecting Hoopa, am ambivalent towards a Custap suspect and would easily vote DNB Custap.

Hoopa is pretty easily the most versatile mon in 1v1 but is not overwhelming on team preview or builder. I think that's a pretty common opinion so I'll move onto the hot button topic.

The argument against Custap Berry, as said by Frogfacts above, revolves around the idea that it makes teambuilding harder and previews less skillful. I disagree. Sure, if you hallucinate that every single mon on the VR could be Custap, then teambuilding becomes impossible. This, however ignores the fact that running Custap has significant opportunity cost for many Pokemon - so the opponent may just be making their team worse when trying to fish for a Custap surprise. Think about how many mons come to a preview with an unexpected Custap Berry just to not get clicked because they're not a standard set. It goes both ways with Custap.

because teams that ignore custap prim/ursa/etc usually have checks that just lose to custap versions. We've literally got multiple replays of this happening in tour games over the past few months.

Why are you running 0-3 to Custap Primarina

Anyway just go read Indi post again instead

 

[Amarion_barrett]

The above post and most posts i've seen defending custap fundamentally misunderstand the reason why Custap should be banned. I've been told we ran into the same problem during the Regidrago discourse where people think that if using a mon isn't an overwhelming broken force then it isn't even worthy of a suspect.
Nobody who's actually in favour of a custap suspect is saying custap is some overwhelming broken force. The whole point is that custap messes with the game in these small but super annoying ways, both in the builder and in actual matches (just like regidrago did). This isn't about “brokenness”, it's about the impact it has.

Stop wasting time by completely ignoring the arguments against custap and instead focusing on some metric of "Competitive Brokennes". People dont want custap banned for the same reason they wanted Gouging Fire banned.

Secondly,
> Given how custap can drastically change the value of slow bulky mons specifically for the 1v1 format as opposed to 6v6, you'd think it would have a immensely high usage for all the slow mons

Item usage arguments don't really mean anything here. You can't even tell if an item got used or not, because 2 out of 3 mons never get revealed, and even the revealed one doesn't always show its item. Unless you're literally going through every replay and proving that a mon couldn't possibly be custap and would've used something else, the argument has basically no weight. And honestly, the rarer custap gets in practice, the stronger it actually becomes, because teams that ignore custap prim/ursa/etc usually have checks that just lose to custap versions. We've literally got multiple replays of this happening in tour games over the past few months.

This isn't Archaludon, this isnt Genesect, this isn't Meloetta. If anything it's just Regidrago discourse all over again. People want custap gone because it's just awful to actually prep for and annoying to play against, since it warps how you have to approach certain mons.

Cosigned by valin

I Hero_of_ladder completely agree with frogfacts here custab is very deserving of a ban I back it with full support. This would make the meta very much more interesting now and a little less randomness is always good in 1v1 if you ask me on a more personal note.

 

[bern]

Sure, if you schizo that every single mon on the VR could be Custap, then teambuilding becomes impossible. This, however ignores the fact that running Custap has significant opportunity cost for many Pokemon - so the opponent may just be making their team worse when trying to fish for a Custap surprise. Think about how many mons come to a preview with an unexpected Custap Berry just to not get clicked because they're not a standard set. It goes both ways with Custap.

You can literally talk about opportunity cost on any pokemon with any item; this includes whether Primarina can run Weakness Policy or Life Orb or Choice Specs, they all have different match-up spreads (like Specs beating Corv or WP beating Hands and Phan) that justify those items, Custap Berry is a similar case except you actually can go your way into thinking that mons not named Hoopa, Prim, Ursa, Shifu, Belli, etc. can run the berry, i believe there was a word for it but i don't exactly remem- oh yeah, counterteaming, you can cteam your opponent very easily with Custap Berry on some mon they'd never see coming. Also the opportunity cost here is "you lose an item", big deal, the potential payout can still be incredibly rewarding especially if you have an ability/move to go with it like it's the case for Prim, Dirge, Shifu, or even Venu.

Custap Berry is still incredibly restrictive in actual preview, there are countless times where i've looked at a preview and said "oh but i lose to custap [x mon], welp time to pray" and then it wasn't Custap and i clicked the wrong mon and i lose. this may sound like a skill issue to you, for me it's more of an information issue, where there's literally nothing for me to go off of and it's overall just stupid.

Like frog said, this is yet another "Regidrago situation" where nothing actually here is overpowered, it's just restrictive in the building and leads to the game being really unfun, quick reminder that there's also the double endure (!!!) which no one else mentioned, literally bringing even more dumbass luck into the game with a 1/3 chance of just winning you the game because everyone is gonna attack you after they guess the first endure, so like what is even the point.

Looking back to mons like Archaludon and Gouging Fire,

Okay, see, this is already an issue, this is not an archa goug situation where the mon is OP and the story ends there, this is a rather more important dive into how the item can warp the metagame around itself and overall be really unhealthy, it's quite interesting that you didn't mention Regidrago, the most recent ban, as that was the most similar situation to what we are currently facing.

Hence, while custap is definitely a strong item, I feel as though it does not elevate the performance of the mons it is often paired with to a competitively broken degree.

During this entire post you completely miss the point of why people find Custap Berry restrictive and unhealthy. this isn't about any metrics or anything of the sort, it's just Drago all over again. Please check out the Drago OTR (where i was wrong then) and come back with your thoughts, i would like to ask you if you think Regidrago even deserved a ban? Probably not considering what you're saying here.

About Hoopa, I think it deserves some thought, but I haven't exactly pondered about it too much, maybe I'll come back with a post on it.

leaving all custap-defending duties to valin and frog.

 

[Marshmelto]

i think my problem with custap has always been that it is stupid when some matchups just devolve into the endure 50/50 not including just clicking it twice and getting bailed and on that premise is why i have always disliked this item being in the game but i think i have always been in the minority. i think this has been my only real problem with custap, not it being restrictive in the builder(it is a little annoying sometimes but not that bad) or opportunity cost or whatever idk i aint readin all these posts. also funny if your opp loads a shitmon theres like a 50% chance it just has a custap berry because you cant really go wrong with the item.
alos this like the 15th ban custap discussion and it is still legal and dont think ppls minds are collectively changing on attempt 16 anytime soon

 

[DEG]

nothing has changed abt custap since this post so read it again https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hang-on-custap-berry-suspect.3735811/#post-9964477

Still a mid item

 

[RADU]

given the process, we can technically always go forward with a suspect and then a ban based off of vibes if enough people are on board. As long as the council vote is passed and suspect reaches 60% you don't technically have to care about any reasoning or big post. Technically.

What pmo about custap is that no matter how much I've attempted to properly discuss it, it devolves into a feeling- or vibes-based wordsoup of "annoying" and other various synonyms. Then the pro custap ban people get pissed off that the anti custap ban people are focusing on the wrong things. There is no proper way to address "annoyance" tiering wise in a manner that is satisfying to either party.
I have personally never felt custap was annoying to face, or that it restricted teambuilding in a way that was degenerate, so I cannot empathize to your sentiments.
Sure, it's not ideal that my specs porygon-z cannot click hyper beam on things slower than it for fear of endure. It's not great that I can't run Choice Band Great Tusk as my Primarina answer. But to me this feeling is no different from the feeling of not being able to run Ursaluna as my Primarina answer because Charm WP can beat me.

I, personally, do not perceive Custap in any way to be degenerate, and it is simply an element that contributes to the dynamics of the metagame. Meowscarada is no longer a reliable Ursaluna counter? It's a natural flow of the metagame that then lowers Meow's viability in favor of other mons. To me it is no different from Zapdos becoming a Goodra-H counter via the use of Clear Amulet. That's all there is

I think I've deafened some ears in my attempt to repeat this over and over: If you are pro custap ban, then you can have your OTR, you can have your vote, and you can have your suspect. You can have discussion, and we, the upholders of status quo, will engage in the discussion, and defend the status quo, or take pokes at your arguments. But if you want people to share your sentiment, you need to show me metrics, stats, examples, data, concrete somethings or anythings that will tell me "This X interaction is degenerate and reduces player expression for Y reason, and removing Custap Berry reaches Z state where things are better".

i went and checked all the relevant distinct arguments by the various people that have posted in meta discussion/otr so far

Fancy1: "custap forces mons to inconvenience themselves significantly for reliability." <-- why and how is this a bad thing? Custap is a crutch and if a player is unreliable as a custap user or against it, they are a lesser player and are likely to lose more games because of this injected variance. If you are good at the game you will not rely on cb tusk as a prim answer and you will win more easily. The only way I'd see this to be a problem is if there was no real way to be consistent into custap or if it was so limiting it became degenerate, but this was never stated to be the case.

zioziotrip: "Custap is an item that provides significantly more MU coverage than any other item in the game and it does that while having the incredibly low opprotunity cost of just the item slot+endure" <-- Yes, Custap is a strong item, but this argument goes straight to the idea that Custap as an item is directly broken. This is hard to believe when arguably 1-3 mons on the entire VR use Custap as their main item, and at most it is equally as used as another top item on all of these mons. You could argue that it's nature as an item that flips a lot of items combined with its unreliability make it degenerate, but you didn't touch on this point really at all.

LittEleven: "Custap forces you to run fat mons to be able to beat a lot of the top mons in the tier, decreasing the viability of many mons; it's easier to just vibe play with custap because you have little to no downside to loading the sets except the loss of a coverage move" <-- A slightly more interesting argument but again this is not at all explored beyond a couple of lines: does the viability reduction of certain mons make the viable mon pool too small? Not really, I believe SV to be one of the metagames with the most varied viable mon pool. The second point is more difficult to prove because there is more opportunity cost than one move slot because you also are missing out on potential firepower, or survivability from av/weakness berries/healing items.

Kaif: "I tagged 7 ppl stronger than me for credibility" <-- ik this is a serious post but I had to include a kaif stray somewhere

frogfacts & Mentality (RIP LARPERIORS): "it's annoying to play against, awful to prep for, warps your approach on the game, has a lot of impact on the meta" <-- The epitome of why this conversation is so halted, this is as close as it gets to just an "agree to disagree". You cannot expect to have conversation beyond that if you don't provide something of value to me, someone who doesn't find custap to be annoying or awful, and who doesn't think the fact that it has an impact on the metagame is an issue.


I will not block a Custap suspect, I think it's fine for the people to have one, but I will be voting DNB as things stand, and so will many others, even those that aren't talking (reminder that many people are dnb custap but are not speaking because there is no real strong argument to counter against if you just Don't Think Custap is Annoying). You are free to be frustrated, but if you don't step up to bat with some proper structured arguments, frustrated is all you will ever be

mubs out

 

[GhostlyPlanets]

So, first of all I would like to start off with Hoopa - Unbound
Now, hoopa-u runs various different sets and it is difficult to predict which set it is (for example av,banded,specs,scarfed,custap [which i am later going to get into]). But it doesn't make it absolutely impossible to defeat hoopa-u. Most choiced hoopa sets are always defeated by physical scarfers or other bulky pokemon that live hoopa. And AV is just always beaten by any faster physical mons/any faster banded mon/any bulky physical mons.
If people want hoopa suspected and then banned for this reason, it makes absolutely no sense. Building against common sets such as band and av is literally part of teambuilding.

To transition into the next part of my post I would like to take an example.

Example 1:
Team A (my team) consists of Banded Meowscarada , WP Iron Crown and AV Raging Bolt . Team B (opponent) consists of Hoopa-Unbound, , Donphan and Landorus .
The most obvious choice here imo is definetly meowscarada. I go with it, click play rough, just to see an endure hoopa - u followed up with and gunk shot which makes me lose.


This brings me to my second point, The unpredictable nature of custap berry

Hoopa U was just one of the various examples of how custap berry can just alter the direction of the game. Custap makes you lose on preview without you even knowing it!
Custap is most commonly seen on reversal users, blaze + some strong fire move like blast burn, same for torrent,overgrow,swarm,etc, and sometimes some slow weak mons which can hit really hard but need a way to move first. Using this lets present some factual research I have done:
1) Note that there are a total of 120 fully evolved pokemon that learn both reversal and endure. Out of which 45 are fighting types. That is 37.5% which is considerably big. (please note I have included banned pokemon in this too )
2) There are 10 fully evolved pokemon that get torrent/blaze/overgrow + endure. Pair that up with hydrocannon/blast burn/ frenzy plant and voila!
(note: all this research has been done using /ds and not /nds)

the main idea is : Custap deserves a suspect into a ban.
It makes teambuilding absolutely impossible. You build around all pokemon you can think of that can defeat your team only to be met by a random endure reversal pokemon?? I'll take another example: Example 2: Great tusk. Great tusk is most commonly known for running banded sets, booster atk or booster speed sets. Now what if I were to put custap with endure reversal on that?

A set I made for custap tusk (don't judge the EVs, I only made this for an example)

OTR example (Great Tusk) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: No
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Endure
- Bulk Up
- Headlong Rush / Head Smash / Other moves you might think of to cteam.

That is all I had to say for now, barring other people commenting on this to which I might reply.
Just want to point some things out others said:

This, however ignores the fact that running Custap has significant opportunity cost for many Pokemon - so the opponent may just be making their team worse when trying to fish for a Custap surprise. Think about how many mons come to a preview with an unexpected Custap Berry just to not get clicked because they're not a standard set. It goes both ways with Custap.

But that's the thing! A mon that is not commonly seen running custap can easily disguise as some random set. Your mon goes to kill it and gets surprised through endure. That is exactly the point of running random custap mons, to get it go your way. You say "because they're not a standard set" but forget the fact that there are random non standard sets using custap

nothing has changed abt custap since this post so read it again https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hang-on-custap-berry-suspect.3735811/#post-9964477

Still a mid item

Was this not nearly 10 months ago? A lot has changed in the metagame since then. I have seen many random custap mons being used on ladder.

i think my problem with custap has always been that it is stupid when some matchups just devolve into the endure 50/50 not including just clicking it twice and getting bailed and on that premise is why i have always disliked this item being in the game but i think i have always been in the minority. i think this has been my only real problem with custap, not it being restrictive in the builder(it is a little annoying sometimes but not that bad) or opportunity cost or whatever idk i aint readin all these posts. also funny if your opp loads a shitmon theres like a 50% chance it just has a custap berry because you cant really go wrong with the item.
alos this like the 15th ban custap discussion and it is still legal and dont think ppls minds are collectively changing on attempt 16 anytime soon

Absolutely agree with this btw. How different is custap endure games than sucker punch stuff? it just becomes an OU endgame at that point.

 

[Itchy]

idrc if custap stays or leaves, it's fairly inconsistent to use and go up against. of the two elements, I'd def prefer this as a suspect option. I probably won't participate in the suspect and don't really know how I'd vote if I magically qualified

hoopa-u is really not an issue from my pov, it's just opportunity cost the pokemon. it can't make up for its low speed and defense without majorly sacrificing something else and I've never found it to be overbearing. do not suspect, do not ban.