Ghost is weak to Dark and ghost, so two weaknesses. It's scary but is it ban worthy? You don't really need to forge a team around defeating it. If you have someone that can survive a hit and whirlwind/dragon tail it out or haze it, it's less of a threat.
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Ghost is weak to Dark and ghost, so two weaknesses. It's scary but is it ban worthy? You don't really need to forge a team around defeating it. If you have someone that can survive a hit and whirlwind/dragon tail it out or haze it, it's less of a threat.
As I said a few pages back the only ones I've seen consistently on the ladder are the Tapus and Magearna, Clefable kind of disappeared once Zygarde was gone and nobody uses Diance or Mawile without their stones because they suck. On Psychic types those are about a third of last gen, and half of them are forced to run Shadow Ball only for Aegislash. We have no reason to believe that Megastones will be released so that leaves us with three. Of those remaining you'll notice several of them (Pheromosa, two of the Tapus, Hoopa) are or have been mentioned for a possible suspect in the future. So a pokemon has to be borderline broken in order to actually get past the bottleneck that is Aegislash?
I do not agree with Porygon-Z/Z-Conversion ban, much less a quick ban. As the user of it, I think people are underestimating how hard it is to set up Z-conversion Porygon-Z. It is definitely NOT easy. With the amount of wallbreakers with over 90 Speed, it is actually hard to set up to the point I resorted to carry screens as support. Even then, it can only be used once. After setting up, there ARE still things that can beat it.
Stuff like SpDef Excadrill can revenge the Electric variants (which is common), Heatran can whirlwind it. Bisharp can take any hit of Ghost Porygon-Z and easily revenges it, or just 1HKO it with Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. And of course, Scarfers. Porygon-Z's bulk is not that great, even after +1, never mind it's likely already taken a hit before setting up because of the amount of wallbreakers with over 90 Speed. SpDef Tyranitar can't be 2HKO'd by ANY type and retaliate it with Crunch if it's Ghost or Earthquake if it's Electric. Also Ferrothorn kinda walls the Electric variants.
If Porygon-Z is up for a ban, there are definitely much more pressing issues (looking at you Aegislash, who doesn't need support to do good).
Stuff like SpDef Excadrill can revenge the Electric variants (which is common), Heatran can whirlwind it. Bisharp can take any hit of Ghost Porygon-Z and easily revenges it, or just 1HKO it with Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. And of course, Scarfers. Porygon-Z's bulk is not that great, even after +1, never mind it's likely already taken a hit before setting up because of the amount of wallbreakers with over 90 Speed. SpDef Tyranitar can't be 2HKO'd by ANY type and retaliate it with Crunch if it's Ghost or Earthquake if it's Electric. Also Ferrothorn kinda walls the Electric variants.
If Porygon-Z is up for a ban, there are definitely much more pressing issues (looking at you Aegislash, who doesn't need support to do good).
Why are you saying we should ban the move when the only instance of it maybe being too much is on one pokemon. If Z-Conversion p2 was also too much, fair enough, but if Porygon-Z is banworthy, we should ban Porygon-Z, not nerf it.
Then again with Baton Pass legal, I suppose you can. Precedent has been set to nerf rather than ban.
1. Sp.Def Ttar is not efficient vs many other things, but i agree its good to check porygon-z
2. Sp.Def drill gets 2HKO by +1 Shadow ball, and drill cant 2HKO porygon (im considering ghost type as the most broken set)
3. Only adamant LO bish's sucker can have rolls to OHKO porygon-z after +1 (not good rolls if porygon has run some hp evs), but bish can eat one tbolt and kill it with knock off (if ghost type) while it still loses to electric set
4. How hard it is to set up? just set up on any walls aka aegi - done.
5. I said Roar Tran can beat it alr but Sp.Def Roar Tran isnt good in many scenario
6. Ferro may wall electric set but not the ghost set or electric set with mag / hp fire
ban aegi anyway.
Porygon-Z w/o Z-Conversion isnt banworthy, w/ Z-Conversion, its broken
With Porygon-Z there is also the problem: Which is your initial switchin? And what do you keep healthy during the game? Because you don't know what type it is.
It also sets up on many defensive pivots (Lando, Rotom, Toxapex, Heatran, Ferrothorn if it is Dark/Ghost, Garchomp has to predict between switching out or DTail) and at worst against a slower Wallbreaker since it can take a hit at +1 if it's faster. It is also not that weak to priority because of its plus defenses. It is very hard to play around. I think quickban is an exaggeration. Let's quickban the obvious things first and then it will be on the suspect watch.
It also sets up on many defensive pivots (Lando, Rotom, Toxapex, Heatran, Ferrothorn if it is Dark/Ghost, Garchomp has to predict between switching out or DTail) and at worst against a slower Wallbreaker since it can take a hit at +1 if it's faster. It is also not that weak to priority because of its plus defenses. It is very hard to play around. I think quickban is an exaggeration. Let's quickban the obvious things first and then it will be on the suspect watch.
Hi, half the posts in this thread are not very intelligible and hurt my brain. Despite being in agreement with this thread on the basis that the community deserves to know whats being considered and discussed by council with regards to suspect tests be it retesting or testing for Ubers, I think giving every John, Dick, and Harry the ability to post nonsensical arguments as to why certain things are broken is an oversight on the basis of many users not having a very informed frame of mind on what qualifies a pokemon as broken. Maybe creating a clear guideline or set of qualifications for the community to judge pokemon by would improve the form and help users make better arguments and possibly stop the uninformed ramblings with regards to Toxapex bans or Kings Shield over Aegislash bans (This can be done by looking at previous bans and outlining precadent extensively). With that said I suppose I should at least talk about the state of the current meta and the pokemon in it but as a disclaimer I am in general against quickbanning pokemon outside exceptional circumstances so I wont comment on whether a pokemon should be quickbanned/suspect tested due to my inherent bias.
Alright so with regards to Aegislash. Aegislash's typing and ability give it an inherent synergy that no other pokemon possibly OU worthy possesses. This has led to it being widely used in both metagames it has been allowed in thus far (I'm calling SUMO a meta despite it not really being one due to it only being active for like a week and nothing really being established from a competitive sense yet). This usage has led Aegislash to clearly centralizing the meta towards itself and is only exacerbated by its monstrous defensive and offensive capabilities. Its a versatile pokemon that may have checks and counters but is extremely difficult to switch into none the less. Scouting sets is something you must do every time you play an Aegislash and despite having to do this for other pokemon too Aegislash's versatility rivals that of Greninjas but in regards to sets rather than coverage. Despite this Aegislash does have arguments to stay in the tier. It does have new viable checks/switchins in Mantine and Toxapex while also retaining the ones from last gen. There is also the argument (albeit a widely considered poor argument) that Aegislash's typing is "healthy" for the metagame and it is stopping things from running wild. This argument is referred to as "Broken checking Broken" which in its essence is unhealthy but with the term broken being subjective in this instance it really comes down to whether as community we wish to promote creativity and viability or have a pokemon in the tier that just clearly should be on every team a la GSC Snorlax. Looking at the current ORAS meta we can say that without a doubt the Aegislash ban promoted this creativity and can be seen in the viability of pokemon as no pokemon is a must have on every team (yes not even Landorus-T is a must have ABR/TDK). In other words, in my opinion Aegislash is probably broke due to me preferring a meta with more inspired team building but I do feel the blatant disregard of people to understand why some people are Pro-Aegislash is unjust.
Pheremosa in an Aegislash based meta does not fit the criteria for a outright ban in my opinion. Despite its base speed, high attack power, and decent stabs its susceptibility to priority, pretty much anything attacking with more than 70atk/spatk thats not resisted KO's it and quite honestly in an Aegislash meta it is from my experience a sub par Gensect. Pheremosa's sets extend to the three choice sets and life orb. Banded while being strong is severely outclassed by Genesect. Genesect has a stronger Uturn, arguably just as good stab and access to a +2 priority move that can hit the tier for a lot damage. Genesect also has a wider coverage for band set (Blaze Kick being the bets example). Choice Specs will primarily be down to preference. Do you wish your pokemon to be incredibly fast and have no bulk or do you want your pokemon to be slightly slower yet have a better defensive typing, more bulk, and access to better coverage. Scarf Sets become interesting as Pheremosa has the better scarf set. Due to its natural speed Pheremosa can invest heavily in its attacking stats and allow for late game beast boost sweeps to take place, it catches off guard every scarfer in their while still utilizing uturn to escape from switch-ins. Be this as it may I'm talking about Pheremosa her and right now Pheremosa is not broken. Its coverage is one dimensional, despite varying sets, it has little to no bulk and multiple checks/switch-ins to any of its sets including but not limited to Aegislash,Mantine, Amoongus, Mega Venusaur, Bulky Zard x, any viable scarf pokemon in the tier, all of the Tapus (this with the exception of a Poison Jab set despite it being rare from my experiences) and I guess Lando if someones running a band set w/o ice beam for w/e reason but either way rocky helms a pretty easy way of wearing any uturner down if you have any level of foresight but i digress. In Aegislash meta its not broke. Anything after that is theorymon and shouldn't be discussed in this thread at the time in my opinion as this is to focus on the current meta and not what may be broken in other meta (we have no idea how a metagame may develop with a ban as substantial as that). Granted as everyones doing it I might aswell cause why not I guess. With Aegislash gone you lose a pokemon that has shaped how teams are built singlehandedly and lose what people are using as the primary switch-in to Phereomsa. In a post Aegislash meta Pheremosa becomes more viable due to not everyone having a ghost type on their team and allowing it to spam high jump kick more. This will see the rise of the Tapu's, Pheremosa will begin to run poison jab sets and then people will find new ways to wear down a life orb set (if you run Poison Jab on a choice set you are either a god or incredibly naive). This thing is 50/50 in a non Aegislash meta as to whether it will be ban worthy and will be interesting to watch as the meta develops assuming the ever increasing likelihood of an Aegislash ban occurs.
Greninja is an interesting pokemon. For a long time in XY it was considered a top tier pokemon but with the release of ORAS it was deemed overpowered in its meta. Greninja gained coverage in Gunk Shot and Low Kick, while CBB popularized a spike set which saw great use on both balance on hyper offense alike. Its unparalleled stab coverage was to much for the tier at the time (a progressively more and more balance oriented tier) to handle and was thus banned. With the arrival of SUMO we see brand new fairies rising to prominence, an ultra beast capable of bulking through Greninjas attacks with ease and the arrival of roost Mantine (seriously I have got to stop mentioning this you all probably think I'm insane for saying it like what 5 times already????? then again this is a long ass post already so I guess I am insane. ANWAYS...) to add to new problems for Greninja. The trouble with this is we do not know how the metagame will begin to shape and have no idea what Greninjas primary switchins will ultimately be. Greninja's ability, Protean, and its exceptional movepool are what made this pokemon broke. The decisive factor in determining whether it will be broke this will be whether the numerical advantage of its switch-ins outnumbers the type coverage Greninja has i.e. HP Fire to hit Ferrothorns or HP Elec to hit Mantine, Extrasensory to hit Venusaur/Toxapex or Gunk to hit fairies, etc.
Landorus- I is a crazy powerful pokemon with access to Sheer Force, Life Orb boosted stab and coverage allowing the pokemon to hit like a truck. In both BW and ORAS Landorus I has been deemed to powerful for the tier. Its ability to clean late game with Rock Polish or breakthrough defensive teams with 4ATKS/CM sets is astounding and unparalleled in the SUMO OU tier. This pokemon will be broke based on two things in SUMO: The offensive nature of the metagame and wther or not it has garnered of checks with the new generation. Now from my recollection the only notable new switch-in to this is Celesteela (BTW the calls to ban this pokemon in this thread are ludicrous. Despite Smogon's policy on bans thus far outside maybe Zyagrde being focused on the offensive capabilities of a pokemon Celesteela in no way fits the requirements for a suspect test or ban. ANYWAYS....) which ultimately loses to a knock off set, while focus blast alone does a hefty amount of damage if i recall correctly. Now we are left with problem of the metagame. Landorus' slow speed is a drawback of the pokemon regardless of its ability to force a switch. Landorus excels on both hyper offense and balanced play styles but its low speed will factor into how may pokemon can check it. There is an argument to keep this pokemon unbanned but upon examination there will ultimately in my opinion be a pro ban stance taken by the community on the pokemon as not much has changed for Landorus over the three generation it has existed and it will continue to be a menace in the south central while drinking his juice in the hood.
OK onto Hoopa-U now i guess. Banned because of its amazing stabs, solid resistances, and incredible offensive stats Hoopa-U was a menace in ORAS while it existed (See SPL 7 replays to see the prolificality of Hoopa and how it shaped the meta while in it.) Now Hoopa unlike Landorus has gained a bountiful amount of new checks, yes not counters, there is a difference. New fairies such as Tapus and Magearna have given reliable new checks to Hoopas primary Dark Stab Attacks (being Dark Pulse or HyperSpace Fury). While these fairies are in the tier Hoopa locking itself into stabs will not be as reliable as before (Yes i realize Tyranitar was on practically every team to stop this but now we have new pokemon for the sake of argument k?). Now does this mean Hoopa will not be broke? I believe so. In a fast fairy oriented meta hoopa's low speed tier will force it to run scarf sets primarily which are much weaker than that aforementioned band or specs sets while its poor bulk can be exploited by hyper offense teams. Now last gen the threat of Scarf Hoopa warped the generation into balance in order to be able to deal with all types of Hoopas with a greater ease but I cannot see it happening again. Post Aegislash a more offensive metagame will more than likely ensure with everyone and their whore mother spamming Magearna, Tapu's, other pokemon that are wall by Aegislash that i can't remember right now. This meta will be disadvantageous and not play to Hoopa's strengths. So yeah, Hoopa's not really broke right now and I cant really see it being a must have ban in the near future granted if the meta becomes complacent and balanced oriented I could defintely see it getting the boot before other things but hey that's theorymon for you.
SO THE FUCKING ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM. Nah I'm just playing. Genesect was banned in both BW and XY due to its ability to garner momentum for a team incredibly quick, getting a +1 stat boost instantly upon switch-in, its versatility in sets it can run and coverage it has, all the while also being incredibly strong in general. Now Genesect is the type of pokemon that will, like Greninja, adapt to the meta it is placed in. If the meta becomes stall oriented banded sets will become more prevalent, if Heatran becomes a problem life orb mixed Genesect becomes a thing, if the meta switches to ho scarf/banded can handle it with extreme speed and just speed in general. Specs Genesect can become a thing in the instance of it being a lure, while setup Genesects with shift gear or rock polish can act as more than adequate late game sweepers. Basically Genesect is what Aegislash is in an Aegislash meta. Gene warps the meta to its liking and creates an inherent teambuilding problem solely by its presence in the tier BUT once again there are clear arguements for Genesect to remain in the tier. Despite its set diversion there is counterplay to the various (Genesi? is that the plural) Genesect sets and it quite frankly doesnt hit incredibly hard a la Landorus-I or Hoopa-U. Basically we are gonna be faced with what happened in XY and BW all over again in a few months time. The inevitability of Genesect being called for a ban is saddening as I personally like the pokemon but precedence proceeds all. Like its suspect in XY a Genesect suspect will ultimately be extremely close and will fracture opinions on all sides (Hey isn't it crazy how Aegislash also seems to do that whenever its around, almost like I compared the two earlier to lead up to this point huh????). In all seriousness though if Aegislash goes more than likely this things usage will fucking soar like a freedom eagle and come shitting down on you like a seagull at the beach but yeah its a fun pokemon no ban plz n_n
Other things addressed in this thread but not in the OP that are worthy of noting are:
Z Moves and their impact on the meta. Ultimately it will come down to council if and how a Z move will be suspected but more than likely, similar to the Aegislash Kings Shield argument, just because a pokemon is broken because it has a particular move does not mean we ban the move for that pokemon. Also these moves are caused by items so in the interest of it being a complex vs basic ban it'll be a complex one because you are blanket banning an item across every pokemon (basic bitch ban) or your are only banning it on one pokemon (complex like how did ict win Grand Slam without getting ghosted). There basically a power herb and a gem combined which is pretty fucked up inherently but hey its fun and will allow for new lures to be rain. With regards to Manaphy and Porygon Z, I can see the concern with Manaphy and once the meta settles I wouldnt be surprised at a suspect but then you have to go about figuring out how you suspect it. With Porygon Z the ladder just hasn't been given time to adapt to the set yet. Its the shock and awe of a new function of Porygon Z that is creating outrage. Give it time.
All of the Tapu's outside Tapu Fini are incredibly strong and have an astounding amout of things going for them. They're all incredibly strong while at the same time having either initiative or bulk to get multiple hits off. Will be interesting to see how the community stands on these pokemon once Aegislash inevitably crosses into the great beyond to be with the Gods.
OH nearly forgot about this guy. Dugtrio. Yeah i understand why people are calling for it to be banned and to be honest I dont actually mind but I think this will come down to a similar argument to Gothitelles banning in ORAS. Is trapping inherently noncompetitive and can the pokemon in question abuse it effectively. With the Dugtrio buff there is a case that Dugtrio can now more effectively abuse its trapping and thus it has crossed the threshold of noncompetitive. I don't think anyone would argue that trapping is not an uncompetitive aspect of pokemon and so we are left with te question of is Dugtrio capable of abusing his ability to a standard that deems him unbroken, for lack of a better term, like Magnezone/Magneton or broken and uncompetitive like Gothitelle. As a side note if it ever occurs that Dugtrio becomes a factor in determining if a pokemon is broken or not Dugtrio should be the pokemon suspected and not the other as it is Dugtrio that is the problem and not its byproduct (this refers to the whole GeneTrio is too good this generation argument that ive seen certain people use, but that doesnt mean you can call for a Dugtrio suspect based on another pokemon being suspect of being legitimately broken i.e. Genesect could be broken on its own. In other words make use some common sense and examine things from an equally objective standpoint for both candidates).
So yeah this is a lot longer than I wanted to write and is pretty much my only post outside win/lose posts, posting "in" to tourneys and that one name change post I made but this thread was aggravating me so i decided to post. I implore the users whom are thinking of posting in this thread to look at pokemon objectively and together different sources on your suspicions before posting. A well informed and well rounded argument and opinion is much more impressive than saying "This thing is just broke like holy fuck its so bulky". This new found level of objectivity should also help you in other aspects of pokemon and not just stopping what would be considered "shitposting" by the "upper echelons" of the smogon community. I would also ask the council to have a thread specifically for your thoughts and opinions on the ongoing development of the meta (or at least have some way making your posts stand out in this thread i.e. pinning them or something idk if you can do that) so that the users can read from presumably more knowledgeable players and enhance their opinions instead of having to read through the copious amounts of unsubstantiated opinions being thrown around in this thread. Also if anyone does not like my post I am legitimately sad that this is the case and you can blame user TDK for cohersing me into writing a post (he said I'd get likes, I said i wont).
Edit: I knew I should have clarified my point about scarf Hoopa. When I referred to it as an offense deterrent I meant that because of this Specs Band Life orb could rise to prominence easily and display Hoopa's true capabilities hence why it got banned (To be fair the meta was already leaning towards balance anyways but Hoopa'a versatility exemplified that). My bad but I'm glad that this at least incited some conversation, Thanks volx757 n_n
Alright so with regards to Aegislash. Aegislash's typing and ability give it an inherent synergy that no other pokemon possibly OU worthy possesses. This has led to it being widely used in both metagames it has been allowed in thus far (I'm calling SUMO a meta despite it not really being one due to it only being active for like a week and nothing really being established from a competitive sense yet). This usage has led Aegislash to clearly centralizing the meta towards itself and is only exacerbated by its monstrous defensive and offensive capabilities. Its a versatile pokemon that may have checks and counters but is extremely difficult to switch into none the less. Scouting sets is something you must do every time you play an Aegislash and despite having to do this for other pokemon too Aegislash's versatility rivals that of Greninjas but in regards to sets rather than coverage. Despite this Aegislash does have arguments to stay in the tier. It does have new viable checks/switchins in Mantine and Toxapex while also retaining the ones from last gen. There is also the argument (albeit a widely considered poor argument) that Aegislash's typing is "healthy" for the metagame and it is stopping things from running wild. This argument is referred to as "Broken checking Broken" which in its essence is unhealthy but with the term broken being subjective in this instance it really comes down to whether as community we wish to promote creativity and viability or have a pokemon in the tier that just clearly should be on every team a la GSC Snorlax. Looking at the current ORAS meta we can say that without a doubt the Aegislash ban promoted this creativity and can be seen in the viability of pokemon as no pokemon is a must have on every team (yes not even Landorus-T is a must have ABR/TDK). In other words, in my opinion Aegislash is probably broke due to me preferring a meta with more inspired team building but I do feel the blatant disregard of people to understand why some people are Pro-Aegislash is unjust.
Pheremosa in an Aegislash based meta does not fit the criteria for a outright ban in my opinion. Despite its base speed, high attack power, and decent stabs its susceptibility to priority, pretty much anything attacking with more than 70atk/spatk thats not resisted KO's it and quite honestly in an Aegislash meta it is from my experience a sub par Gensect. Pheremosa's sets extend to the three choice sets and life orb. Banded while being strong is severely outclassed by Genesect. Genesect has a stronger Uturn, arguably just as good stab and access to a +2 priority move that can hit the tier for a lot damage. Genesect also has a wider coverage for band set (Blaze Kick being the bets example). Choice Specs will primarily be down to preference. Do you wish your pokemon to be incredibly fast and have no bulk or do you want your pokemon to be slightly slower yet have a better defensive typing, more bulk, and access to better coverage. Scarf Sets become interesting as Pheremosa has the better scarf set. Due to its natural speed Pheremosa can invest heavily in its attacking stats and allow for late game beast boost sweeps to take place, it catches off guard every scarfer in their while still utilizing uturn to escape from switch-ins. Be this as it may I'm talking about Pheremosa her and right now Pheremosa is not broken. Its coverage is one dimensional, despite varying sets, it has little to no bulk and multiple checks/switch-ins to any of its sets including but not limited to Aegislash,Mantine, Amoongus, Mega Venusaur, Bulky Zard x, any viable scarf pokemon in the tier, all of the Tapus (this with the exception of a Poison Jab set despite it being rare from my experiences) and I guess Lando if someones running a band set w/o ice beam for w/e reason but either way rocky helms a pretty easy way of wearing any uturner down if you have any level of foresight but i digress. In Aegislash meta its not broke. Anything after that is theorymon and shouldn't be discussed in this thread at the time in my opinion as this is to focus on the current meta and not what may be broken in other meta (we have no idea how a metagame may develop with a ban as substantial as that). Granted as everyones doing it I might aswell cause why not I guess. With Aegislash gone you lose a pokemon that has shaped how teams are built singlehandedly and lose what people are using as the primary switch-in to Phereomsa. In a post Aegislash meta Pheremosa becomes more viable due to not everyone having a ghost type on their team and allowing it to spam high jump kick more. This will see the rise of the Tapu's, Pheremosa will begin to run poison jab sets and then people will find new ways to wear down a life orb set (if you run Poison Jab on a choice set you are either a god or incredibly naive). This thing is 50/50 in a non Aegislash meta as to whether it will be ban worthy and will be interesting to watch as the meta develops assuming the ever increasing likelihood of an Aegislash ban occurs.
Greninja is an interesting pokemon. For a long time in XY it was considered a top tier pokemon but with the release of ORAS it was deemed overpowered in its meta. Greninja gained coverage in Gunk Shot and Low Kick, while CBB popularized a spike set which saw great use on both balance on hyper offense alike. Its unparalleled stab coverage was to much for the tier at the time (a progressively more and more balance oriented tier) to handle and was thus banned. With the arrival of SUMO we see brand new fairies rising to prominence, an ultra beast capable of bulking through Greninjas attacks with ease and the arrival of roost Mantine (seriously I have got to stop mentioning this you all probably think I'm insane for saying it like what 5 times already????? then again this is a long ass post already so I guess I am insane. ANWAYS...) to add to new problems for Greninja. The trouble with this is we do not know how the metagame will begin to shape and have no idea what Greninjas primary switchins will ultimately be. Greninja's ability, Protean, and its exceptional movepool are what made this pokemon broke. The decisive factor in determining whether it will be broke this will be whether the numerical advantage of its switch-ins outnumbers the type coverage Greninja has i.e. HP Fire to hit Ferrothorns or HP Elec to hit Mantine, Extrasensory to hit Venusaur/Toxapex or Gunk to hit fairies, etc.
Landorus- I is a crazy powerful pokemon with access to Sheer Force, Life Orb boosted stab and coverage allowing the pokemon to hit like a truck. In both BW and ORAS Landorus I has been deemed to powerful for the tier. Its ability to clean late game with Rock Polish or breakthrough defensive teams with 4ATKS/CM sets is astounding and unparalleled in the SUMO OU tier. This pokemon will be broke based on two things in SUMO: The offensive nature of the metagame and wther or not it has garnered of checks with the new generation. Now from my recollection the only notable new switch-in to this is Celesteela (BTW the calls to ban this pokemon in this thread are ludicrous. Despite Smogon's policy on bans thus far outside maybe Zyagrde being focused on the offensive capabilities of a pokemon Celesteela in no way fits the requirements for a suspect test or ban. ANYWAYS....) which ultimately loses to a knock off set, while focus blast alone does a hefty amount of damage if i recall correctly. Now we are left with problem of the metagame. Landorus' slow speed is a drawback of the pokemon regardless of its ability to force a switch. Landorus excels on both hyper offense and balanced play styles but its low speed will factor into how may pokemon can check it. There is an argument to keep this pokemon unbanned but upon examination there will ultimately in my opinion be a pro ban stance taken by the community on the pokemon as not much has changed for Landorus over the three generation it has existed and it will continue to be a menace in the south central while drinking his juice in the hood.
OK onto Hoopa-U now i guess. Banned because of its amazing stabs, solid resistances, and incredible offensive stats Hoopa-U was a menace in ORAS while it existed (See SPL 7 replays to see the prolificality of Hoopa and how it shaped the meta while in it.) Now Hoopa unlike Landorus has gained a bountiful amount of new checks, yes not counters, there is a difference. New fairies such as Tapus and Magearna have given reliable new checks to Hoopas primary Dark Stab Attacks (being Dark Pulse or HyperSpace Fury). While these fairies are in the tier Hoopa locking itself into stabs will not be as reliable as before (Yes i realize Tyranitar was on practically every team to stop this but now we have new pokemon for the sake of argument k?). Now does this mean Hoopa will not be broke? I believe so. In a fast fairy oriented meta hoopa's low speed tier will force it to run scarf sets primarily which are much weaker than that aforementioned band or specs sets while its poor bulk can be exploited by hyper offense teams. Now last gen the threat of Scarf Hoopa warped the generation into balance in order to be able to deal with all types of Hoopas with a greater ease but I cannot see it happening again. Post Aegislash a more offensive metagame will more than likely ensure with everyone and their whore mother spamming Magearna, Tapu's, other pokemon that are wall by Aegislash that i can't remember right now. This meta will be disadvantageous and not play to Hoopa's strengths. So yeah, Hoopa's not really broke right now and I cant really see it being a must have ban in the near future granted if the meta becomes complacent and balanced oriented I could defintely see it getting the boot before other things but hey that's theorymon for you.
SO THE FUCKING ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM. Nah I'm just playing. Genesect was banned in both BW and XY due to its ability to garner momentum for a team incredibly quick, getting a +1 stat boost instantly upon switch-in, its versatility in sets it can run and coverage it has, all the while also being incredibly strong in general. Now Genesect is the type of pokemon that will, like Greninja, adapt to the meta it is placed in. If the meta becomes stall oriented banded sets will become more prevalent, if Heatran becomes a problem life orb mixed Genesect becomes a thing, if the meta switches to ho scarf/banded can handle it with extreme speed and just speed in general. Specs Genesect can become a thing in the instance of it being a lure, while setup Genesects with shift gear or rock polish can act as more than adequate late game sweepers. Basically Genesect is what Aegislash is in an Aegislash meta. Gene warps the meta to its liking and creates an inherent teambuilding problem solely by its presence in the tier BUT once again there are clear arguements for Genesect to remain in the tier. Despite its set diversion there is counterplay to the various (Genesi? is that the plural) Genesect sets and it quite frankly doesnt hit incredibly hard a la Landorus-I or Hoopa-U. Basically we are gonna be faced with what happened in XY and BW all over again in a few months time. The inevitability of Genesect being called for a ban is saddening as I personally like the pokemon but precedence proceeds all. Like its suspect in XY a Genesect suspect will ultimately be extremely close and will fracture opinions on all sides (Hey isn't it crazy how Aegislash also seems to do that whenever its around, almost like I compared the two earlier to lead up to this point huh????). In all seriousness though if Aegislash goes more than likely this things usage will fucking soar like a freedom eagle and come shitting down on you like a seagull at the beach but yeah its a fun pokemon no ban plz n_n
Other things addressed in this thread but not in the OP that are worthy of noting are:
Z Moves and their impact on the meta. Ultimately it will come down to council if and how a Z move will be suspected but more than likely, similar to the Aegislash Kings Shield argument, just because a pokemon is broken because it has a particular move does not mean we ban the move for that pokemon. Also these moves are caused by items so in the interest of it being a complex vs basic ban it'll be a complex one because you are blanket banning an item across every pokemon (basic bitch ban) or your are only banning it on one pokemon (complex like how did ict win Grand Slam without getting ghosted). There basically a power herb and a gem combined which is pretty fucked up inherently but hey its fun and will allow for new lures to be rain. With regards to Manaphy and Porygon Z, I can see the concern with Manaphy and once the meta settles I wouldnt be surprised at a suspect but then you have to go about figuring out how you suspect it. With Porygon Z the ladder just hasn't been given time to adapt to the set yet. Its the shock and awe of a new function of Porygon Z that is creating outrage. Give it time.
All of the Tapu's outside Tapu Fini are incredibly strong and have an astounding amout of things going for them. They're all incredibly strong while at the same time having either initiative or bulk to get multiple hits off. Will be interesting to see how the community stands on these pokemon once Aegislash inevitably crosses into the great beyond to be with the Gods.
OH nearly forgot about this guy. Dugtrio. Yeah i understand why people are calling for it to be banned and to be honest I dont actually mind but I think this will come down to a similar argument to Gothitelles banning in ORAS. Is trapping inherently noncompetitive and can the pokemon in question abuse it effectively. With the Dugtrio buff there is a case that Dugtrio can now more effectively abuse its trapping and thus it has crossed the threshold of noncompetitive. I don't think anyone would argue that trapping is not an uncompetitive aspect of pokemon and so we are left with te question of is Dugtrio capable of abusing his ability to a standard that deems him unbroken, for lack of a better term, like Magnezone/Magneton or broken and uncompetitive like Gothitelle. As a side note if it ever occurs that Dugtrio becomes a factor in determining if a pokemon is broken or not Dugtrio should be the pokemon suspected and not the other as it is Dugtrio that is the problem and not its byproduct (this refers to the whole GeneTrio is too good this generation argument that ive seen certain people use, but that doesnt mean you can call for a Dugtrio suspect based on another pokemon being suspect of being legitimately broken i.e. Genesect could be broken on its own. In other words make use some common sense and examine things from an equally objective standpoint for both candidates).
So yeah this is a lot longer than I wanted to write and is pretty much my only post outside win/lose posts, posting "in" to tourneys and that one name change post I made but this thread was aggravating me so i decided to post. I implore the users whom are thinking of posting in this thread to look at pokemon objectively and together different sources on your suspicions before posting. A well informed and well rounded argument and opinion is much more impressive than saying "This thing is just broke like holy fuck its so bulky". This new found level of objectivity should also help you in other aspects of pokemon and not just stopping what would be considered "shitposting" by the "upper echelons" of the smogon community. I would also ask the council to have a thread specifically for your thoughts and opinions on the ongoing development of the meta (or at least have some way making your posts stand out in this thread i.e. pinning them or something idk if you can do that) so that the users can read from presumably more knowledgeable players and enhance their opinions instead of having to read through the copious amounts of unsubstantiated opinions being thrown around in this thread. Also if anyone does not like my post I am legitimately sad that this is the case and you can blame user TDK for cohersing me into writing a post (he said I'd get likes, I said i wont).
Edit: I knew I should have clarified my point about scarf Hoopa. When I referred to it as an offense deterrent I meant that because of this Specs Band Life orb could rise to prominence easily and display Hoopa's true capabilities hence why it got banned (To be fair the meta was already leaning towards balance anyways but Hoopa'a versatility exemplified that). My bad but I'm glad that this at least incited some conversation, Thanks volx757 n_n
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If you let P-Z set up against you then it's your misplay and therefore you deserve to end up sacking some mons to rkill it. You say you can set-up on Aegislash? What about 150 base SpAtk Super effective Shadow Ball? For me the worst aspect of P-Z is its "unpredictability" because you can't know which type it is until it has set-up. You calcs about P-Z eating hits which prevent it from being rkilled don't consider the damage it takes while setting up. Let's say you setp up against Ferro and take half from Gyro Ball, that's an easy revenge kill. There are few passive mons that would allow it to set-up with no punishment and even then the likes of Toxapex Alomomola (just some examples off the top of my head) can punish it via toxic. I've only lost once to a P-Z and it was the first time I ever battled one and didn't know what it did, but at this point everyone knows about the Z-Conversion, so the set-up is pretty predictable
Z-Conversion isn't banworthy
dude before it used conversion, its normal type
The new fairies do help deter Hoopa from darkspamming, but banded Hoopa, which is poking around here and there rn, still ohkos all the tapus with gunk shot.
The thing about scarf hoopa, I believe that's inaccurate. Hoopa's suspect came around when it's Specs set was very popular, because of the ease with which it could just spam it's STABs and have a solid chance at getting a kill, and it's effect was to take a meta that was more centered around balance squads and make it far more offensive (pursuit and fast u-turns were the touted counterplay). Hoopa's invalidation of balance/stall was the unhealthy effect that we banned it to get rid of. I would like to let the meta settle before we get into suspects, but Hoopa will absolutely be deserving of one, for the same fundamental reason as last time: it's BST is stupid, and it has a great movepool to abuse it.
After I see the calcs, I actually think that Dugtrio may be a problem. Some of the threats that can't be 2HKO'd before are now 2HKO'd, meaning Sash variants now can trap more things. See the differences.
80 Attack
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 129-153 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock -> Band variant btw
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 158-188 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 224-264 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100 Atk
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 182-216 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Those are some of excellent mons that wins 1v1 vs Focus Sash Dugtrio IF it has 80 Attack, but not anymore when it has 100 Attack. There may be more, but what I want to say is, the Attack increase is significant enough to make it potentially broken.
80 Attack
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 129-153 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock -> Band variant btw
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 158-188 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 224-264 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100 Atk
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 182-216 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Those are some of excellent mons that wins 1v1 vs Focus Sash Dugtrio IF it has 80 Attack, but not anymore when it has 100 Attack. There may be more, but what I want to say is, the Attack increase is significant enough to make it potentially broken.
Aegisalsh is slower lol. You click Z-Conversion, I click SBall on the same turn and get the super effective. Who clicks a Ghost-type move on a normal type? Well as I already said, the Z-Conversion thing is pretty obvious and predictable so theres that.
What separates Z-Conversion Porygon-Z from all the Quiver Dance and Shell Smash sweepers in the lower tiers? Or Belly Drum Linoone?
I'm not calling it a shitmon. It's just that lots of Pokemon are powerful after a boost, but struggle to actually get the boost.
I'm not calling it a shitmon. It's just that lots of Pokemon are powerful after a boost, but struggle to actually get the boost.
I don't think they are even comparable. For one, Porygon-Z has the s.atk stat to do work without a boost, not great but workable defenses and a middling speed tier. Throw a +1 boost and a better typing on those and suddenly it's threatening. Most quiver dance/shell smash users in lower tiers don't have the stats to function without the boosts and have typings that are easily taken out despite the boosts. Linoone is still linoone with great atk.
Do I think Porygon-Z is "broke" no. Do I think it will be suspect tests? maybe? But I don't think it needs to be. Like IAmGingy said, the meta game needs time to catch up with it. I think Z-conversion will bring Porygon-Z up to OU for a while, but I don't think it will rocket it to the moon of the gods.
Blaziken without Speed Boost...
Sound familiar?
E: I actually dont care about Porygon-Z, just saying that this nerfing that Baton Pass started should not be a standard.
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I can't believe people are actually calling for a Porygon-Z ban. The thing is incredibly predictable, it has two sets that at minimum share 3 of the same moves. It has a good number of checks. And, most importantly, the thing doesn't set up for free. People keep dropping these 2HKO calcs like this thing comes in with a boost. You can't even set up on half the walls in the tier because they're all carrying haze or whirlwind.
Porygon-Z isn't banworthy at all, it is soooo predictable. It really has a hard time switching into anything, and then has to set up. So it's probably taking two hits before it can effectively sweep. All calcs saying "it's not even 2HKO by this or this" are mostly irrelevant because of that, but I agree that Recover is really an option (and may be the best option alongside TBolt+Ice Beam, the reason why I don't think the SBall version is superior).
I've been facing it a lot with a team I made, and the only pokemon it could ever switch in was aegi spamming shadow ball. You can either predict a switch and go like flash cannon, or you can spam SBall once again after it comes in. And even Pokemon like Spe Def Excadrill (which is amazing in the actual meta, checking Aegislash, Tapu koko, and a lot more) can easily defeat the Electric version, so does Spdef Marowak-Alola. If it was possible to use the Zmove several times, may be it would be broken but that's not the case.
Pretty much, saying "if PZ can switch in, set up a Zconversion, then it's GG" is pretty similar to saying "if MChari-X can come in, set up a DDance, then it's GG". Except MChari-X has far more opportunities to set up, and it's not a dead pokemon if you already used DDance once / can't use for whatever reason. I know MChari-X has some few counters, so does P-Z.
May be we will need a suspect to clear things up (and I'm not even convinced by the fact that it should be suspected), but PZ is by no means the priority out there. Genesect and Landorus-I are far more broken. And for the controversial Aegislash, I wouldn't mind if it stays in the meta, I wouldn't mind either if it is banned after a suspect, but a quickban is just not the way we should do it, it's not a Zygarde-C or MSala or MKanga thing. Furthermore, I think Aegis are all running similar sets, 100% of aegis out there are running SBall + KShield, then some are using sub, some are full atk, etc. But there isn't as much variety as I remember it had back at the beginning of 6G for example.
I've been facing it a lot with a team I made, and the only pokemon it could ever switch in was aegi spamming shadow ball. You can either predict a switch and go like flash cannon, or you can spam SBall once again after it comes in. And even Pokemon like Spe Def Excadrill (which is amazing in the actual meta, checking Aegislash, Tapu koko, and a lot more) can easily defeat the Electric version, so does Spdef Marowak-Alola. If it was possible to use the Zmove several times, may be it would be broken but that's not the case.
Pretty much, saying "if PZ can switch in, set up a Zconversion, then it's GG" is pretty similar to saying "if MChari-X can come in, set up a DDance, then it's GG". Except MChari-X has far more opportunities to set up, and it's not a dead pokemon if you already used DDance once / can't use for whatever reason. I know MChari-X has some few counters, so does P-Z.
May be we will need a suspect to clear things up (and I'm not even convinced by the fact that it should be suspected), but PZ is by no means the priority out there. Genesect and Landorus-I are far more broken. And for the controversial Aegislash, I wouldn't mind if it stays in the meta, I wouldn't mind either if it is banned after a suspect, but a quickban is just not the way we should do it, it's not a Zygarde-C or MSala or MKanga thing. Furthermore, I think Aegis are all running similar sets, 100% of aegis out there are running SBall + KShield, then some are using sub, some are full atk, etc. But there isn't as much variety as I remember it had back at the beginning of 6G for example.
yeah, after reading some others opinions on this, i think quick ban was an exaggeration, but i still feel like it needs a suspect test
also, u really cant compare this with DD zardx, cus many common strategies can stop +1 zardx like scarfers, weather abusers as it only gets boosted in spe and attack unlike porygon which get all stat boost that makes many mons fail to KO it back, plus almost no switchin at all
I'm not sure if people are overreacting because a once UU (solid) pokemon is now able to set up and wreck havoc upon OU or it's because they'd rather not prepare for a new threat and just adapt ORAS OU with Tapus and be done with. Two words: THE META HAS NOT EVEN BEGUN....ok 5, point is we haven't started SuMO and Porgyon-Z not only is not broken but needs a team to support him if he was to do any kind of damage, for example hazards, softening the opposite team so his one time set up would work, sliding him in with minimum damage and also setting up with such...you know, just likee with any set up sweeper in any HO team.
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The fact that P-Z was not even on the radar last week to being discussed for banning on about ~2~ pages today shows that the meta is still too young for any quickbanning to happen.
Might be in the minority here but Pheromosa somehow isnt as threatening or useful this week compared to last week with all those new Buzzwole, Alolan Marowak running around with the old Aegi, Toxapex, Mega Venu
Might be in the minority here but Pheromosa somehow isnt as threatening or useful this week compared to last week with all those new Buzzwole, Alolan Marowak running around with the old Aegi, Toxapex, Mega Venu
It's a result of how strong it is for sure so everyone prepares for it, combined with its checks (most notably Rocky Helmet Toxapex and Aegislash) being very good and highly splashable so you'd want to use them anyway.
Also can we please look into Landorus, this thing is one of the most brain-dead pokemon in the game, you can be in a coma and still come out with a win if you've just put this mon on your team. Not only is the sweeping power it has with LO RP EdgeQuake Sludge Wave ridiculous, it checks all of Pheromosa's common switch-ins off the top of my head (Alowak, Aegislash, Toxapex) and it's immune to Ground which is great with Aegislash. Personally even though I think both should be banned, if I had to choose I would rather have Pheromosa in the tier than Landorus, at least you have stuff like Rocky Helmet Toxapex, switching to Ghost-types on HJK, packing stuff in general that can survive a hit from any of its attacks and fire back (especially if it also carries priority) where Landorus just goes over teams like a lawn mower with no kind of opportunity cost or risk. It's also immune to Volt Switch, goes through all the Fairy-types like butter thanks to its coverage, is able to be switched in continuously throughout the game thanks to its great typing.... get rid of Landorus ASAP, please.
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Ahhh yes a new generation. I always love to see so many very different opinions about the metagame based on individual experiences within only a week. That isn't to say these opinions are not valid, but seeing the stark differences in opinion should indicate some kind of notion to wait a bit longer before making tiering decisions.
Anyway, I've done my best to read through the 9 pages to garner the most popular opinions, and it's basically a toss up between Pheromosa and Aegislash (both of which have had quickbans called against them). For now, only a week into the games, I definitely think a quick ban on either would be a rash decision. Most of everything has been said about Aegislash already, but I definitely have some new input on Pheromosa. I recommend reading the following with the caveat that I believe they should both obviously be suspected, but not quick banned.
Pheromosa, on its own, is not a broken Pokemon--at least in the current state of the metagame (as much as a coherent metagame can form in less than a week). Gen 6 was unprecedented in terms of quickbans, but that's only because of the mega evolutions which were designed to be ridiculous. I think that this may have lead to a quickban mentality, where people (especially those who started competitive play in Gen 5 and 6) have been conditioned to call out for quick bans at the sight of a dominant Pokemon. Pokemon like MSalamence, MLucario, MGengar, and MKangaskhan were able to plow through teams on their own. It got so bad that we were running checks (note: not even counters) explicitly for them so that we didn't flat out lose to a DD/Nasty Plot/PuP. They didn't need support to be ridiculous because they did that just fine on their own. And that's why they were quickbanned. Slapping them on a team enhanced any team, no matter what the Pokemon were. Synergy, support, etc. had no effect on their potential. Pheromosa is a different story. Yes, it's freaking ridiculous. But people already have Pokemon on their teams that counter it, all without the extra effort of adding a check for the sole purpose of dealing with Pheromosa. The list includes Aegislash(!), Mantine, Toxapex, Marowak, Scizor, and that other ultra beast dude that has really good defense. Obviously, there are plenty others (think ghosts and bugs, even Gengar is a decent switch-in), but those are some very popular choices right now because people are having fun with new S/M Pokemon. The issue, though, is the fact that Pheromosa has a low risk high reward playstyle that consists of painful CB U-turns into checks to whatever comes in until it's safe to HJK. The fact that its CB U-turn does so much damage on top of the fact that it literally outspeeds everything is what makes it suspect-worthy.
However, and I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet (perhaps I missed it when skimming the posts), Pheromosa is fking amazing with the right support. Switching into CB STAB powerful U-turn is terribly difficult, but ghost types like Aegislash and Marowak eat anything Pheromosa throws out for dinner. Enter Bisharp (or any pursuit trapper for that matter) and suddenly these "counters" can't switch into Pheromosa at all. I mention Bisharp in particular because Defiant prevents King's Shield from making Pursuit do literally 2% and removes the 50/50 entirely. Pursuit Bisharp paired with Pheromosa makes Aegislash and Marowak irrelevant because switching into U-turn basically means they die. People on the ladder are slapping Pheromosa onto every team without any strategy and it's making the thing look bad lol. Pheromosa is problematic because it forms ridiculously strong (dare I say broken) offensive cores that very few teams can handle unless they have a dedicated counter that handles pursuit. Toxapex is probably the first thing that comes to mind (maybe Mantine), but pair Pheromosa with anything that has a powerful Volt Switch like the circuit tree thing or Tapu Koko and suddenly Toxapex feels like dead weight. In fact, Toxapex just makes you fall into the VoltTurn void. I've been using Pheromosa + Bisharp + Tapu Koko, and I can honestly say that the core makes Pheromosa feel more powerful than it is. And that's why I said that Pheromosa is not broken on its own, but rather that its potential really shines with the right support as is the case with most glass cannons.
Like I said at the beginning, I don't think that it's not ban worthy, but I definitely think that a quick ban would be rash and premature. It hasn't even been a week. Experience the raw metagame for a bit!
also hi it's been awhile
Anyway, I've done my best to read through the 9 pages to garner the most popular opinions, and it's basically a toss up between Pheromosa and Aegislash (both of which have had quickbans called against them). For now, only a week into the games, I definitely think a quick ban on either would be a rash decision. Most of everything has been said about Aegislash already, but I definitely have some new input on Pheromosa. I recommend reading the following with the caveat that I believe they should both obviously be suspected, but not quick banned.
Pheromosa, on its own, is not a broken Pokemon--at least in the current state of the metagame (as much as a coherent metagame can form in less than a week). Gen 6 was unprecedented in terms of quickbans, but that's only because of the mega evolutions which were designed to be ridiculous. I think that this may have lead to a quickban mentality, where people (especially those who started competitive play in Gen 5 and 6) have been conditioned to call out for quick bans at the sight of a dominant Pokemon. Pokemon like MSalamence, MLucario, MGengar, and MKangaskhan were able to plow through teams on their own. It got so bad that we were running checks (note: not even counters) explicitly for them so that we didn't flat out lose to a DD/Nasty Plot/PuP. They didn't need support to be ridiculous because they did that just fine on their own. And that's why they were quickbanned. Slapping them on a team enhanced any team, no matter what the Pokemon were. Synergy, support, etc. had no effect on their potential. Pheromosa is a different story. Yes, it's freaking ridiculous. But people already have Pokemon on their teams that counter it, all without the extra effort of adding a check for the sole purpose of dealing with Pheromosa. The list includes Aegislash(!), Mantine, Toxapex, Marowak, Scizor, and that other ultra beast dude that has really good defense. Obviously, there are plenty others (think ghosts and bugs, even Gengar is a decent switch-in), but those are some very popular choices right now because people are having fun with new S/M Pokemon. The issue, though, is the fact that Pheromosa has a low risk high reward playstyle that consists of painful CB U-turns into checks to whatever comes in until it's safe to HJK. The fact that its CB U-turn does so much damage on top of the fact that it literally outspeeds everything is what makes it suspect-worthy.
However, and I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet (perhaps I missed it when skimming the posts), Pheromosa is fking amazing with the right support. Switching into CB STAB powerful U-turn is terribly difficult, but ghost types like Aegislash and Marowak eat anything Pheromosa throws out for dinner. Enter Bisharp (or any pursuit trapper for that matter) and suddenly these "counters" can't switch into Pheromosa at all. I mention Bisharp in particular because Defiant prevents King's Shield from making Pursuit do literally 2% and removes the 50/50 entirely. Pursuit Bisharp paired with Pheromosa makes Aegislash and Marowak irrelevant because switching into U-turn basically means they die. People on the ladder are slapping Pheromosa onto every team without any strategy and it's making the thing look bad lol. Pheromosa is problematic because it forms ridiculously strong (dare I say broken) offensive cores that very few teams can handle unless they have a dedicated counter that handles pursuit. Toxapex is probably the first thing that comes to mind (maybe Mantine), but pair Pheromosa with anything that has a powerful Volt Switch like the circuit tree thing or Tapu Koko and suddenly Toxapex feels like dead weight. In fact, Toxapex just makes you fall into the VoltTurn void. I've been using Pheromosa + Bisharp + Tapu Koko, and I can honestly say that the core makes Pheromosa feel more powerful than it is. And that's why I said that Pheromosa is not broken on its own, but rather that its potential really shines with the right support as is the case with most glass cannons.
Like I said at the beginning, I don't think that it's not ban worthy, but I definitely think that a quick ban would be rash and premature. It hasn't even been a week. Experience the raw metagame for a bit!
also hi it's been awhile
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Sure, switch in your Toxapex, Alowak, Aegislash or Mantine. It's just spamming U-turns anyway, goes to Landorus and now you're checked again by an even more brain-dead pokemon than Pheromosa is. How much can your team take before the mindless spam of U-turn and Earth Power breaks your team down and Phero & Lando switch to HJK & RP? You could teach a toddler to play these kinds of team compositions. They need to go.
Baton Pass has been gradually limited throughout Gen VI, and frankly this has never completely solved the problem. Now with the Gale Wings nerf we have lost a solid answer to that.
Even totally empty the move and consider it only as momentum will not solve, as it can not be punished as U-Turn, or stopped as Volt-Switch. We will not miss a niche as big as imagined, this should just go away from OverUsed. Suspect.
Arena Trap / Pursuit are elements that reduce competitiveness, limit build, force flip coin 50/50 since the team-preview and reduce the need for skill. With a problem like matchup, allow trappers is not going to make the game healthier, on the contrary, it just worsen this aspect. Pursuit was ridiculous throughout the Gen VI, removing most of the switch from Keldeo and Charizard Y without a real counterplay. In addition, the amount of threats that Dugtrio can remove is absurd. Now add a buff on attack and new threats for it to remove without fail. Suspect.
Quick Claw, Evasion items and Abilities, Swagger, Confuse Ray.
This is not what we can call broken or even common, but no competitive strategy (understand how healthy) can be formed with these elements, just a small niche that boils down to luck, and this is neither necessary nor healthy for the tier, a preventive measure called Quick Ban could be taken.
Manaphy deserves attention. Z-Rain Dance helps his speed leaving him lethal against offense and Hydro Vortex destroys stall / balance. Now Manaphy is a concrete threat against every playstyle with a single set. Wait and see.
Good Quick Ban Zygarde-C, but Thousand Arrows still deserves attention too.
I do not have the right to choose or even recommend something, but Aegislash simply centralizes the entire metagame and this topic is almost becoming a topic of Aegislash suspect. It is quite clear that something needs to be done sooner or later, be it Quick Ban or Suspect, so in my humility opinion needs to be early. The permanence or not of Aegislash is completely influential in the future of metagame and team building.
Even totally empty the move and consider it only as momentum will not solve, as it can not be punished as U-Turn, or stopped as Volt-Switch. We will not miss a niche as big as imagined, this should just go away from OverUsed. Suspect.
Arena Trap / Pursuit are elements that reduce competitiveness, limit build, force flip coin 50/50 since the team-preview and reduce the need for skill. With a problem like matchup, allow trappers is not going to make the game healthier, on the contrary, it just worsen this aspect. Pursuit was ridiculous throughout the Gen VI, removing most of the switch from Keldeo and Charizard Y without a real counterplay. In addition, the amount of threats that Dugtrio can remove is absurd. Now add a buff on attack and new threats for it to remove without fail. Suspect.
Quick Claw, Evasion items and Abilities, Swagger, Confuse Ray.
This is not what we can call broken or even common, but no competitive strategy (understand how healthy) can be formed with these elements, just a small niche that boils down to luck, and this is neither necessary nor healthy for the tier, a preventive measure called Quick Ban could be taken.
Manaphy deserves attention. Z-Rain Dance helps his speed leaving him lethal against offense and Hydro Vortex destroys stall / balance. Now Manaphy is a concrete threat against every playstyle with a single set. Wait and see.
Good Quick Ban Zygarde-C, but Thousand Arrows still deserves attention too.
I do not have the right to choose or even recommend something, but Aegislash simply centralizes the entire metagame and this topic is almost becoming a topic of Aegislash suspect. It is quite clear that something needs to be done sooner or later, be it Quick Ban or Suspect, so in my humility opinion needs to be early. The permanence or not of Aegislash is completely influential in the future of metagame and team building.
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