On The Radar

[LucarioOfLegends]

For those who are still skeptical about the points on overcentralization, think about building a team around, say, Mega-Scizor. Normally, one would build a team around Mega-Scizor's strengths and weaknesses, but also keep in mind the other Pokemon's strengths and weaknesses as well to create abalanced team. Now imagine, for some reason, all of Mega-Scizor threats were suddenly wiped from OU, and its usage exploded. Now, if most players on OU suddenly started using Mega-Scizor, you as it would be a route to victory, would likely use him as well. Then you would need counters for other Mega-Scizor, since they're so popular right now. Finally, you would need a Pokemon that would benefit from an opposing Mega-Scizor's removal, as it would lead to a lot easier of a time in the long run. Notice how focused this team is on only Mega Scizor? That is what is called overcentralization, where the rest of the team becomes so focused on the success of this one pokemon.

This is exactly what is happening with Aegislash. It has so few reliable checks too it, that teams are being formed of only Aegislash (because its so successful right now), Aegislash checks, and pokemon that benefit from its removal. This creates a limited metagame that has very little room for creativity, and is hypocritical for the future of OU.

 

[Aberforth]

I dont know if it should be quick banned or suspected, but I would like to see Aegislash banned.

I feel it simply does too much. There are close to no drawbacks to ever using an Aegislash, the risk/reward for using it is even more skewed than it was for Hoopa-U. If it had legitimate drawbacks or risks to using it, I'd feel like it'd be relatively healthy for the metagame (best example is Clef last gen) but it is simultaneously one of the best offensive, defensive, support and utility pokemon in the tier, it can't be trapped by Dugtrio, it beats almost all pursuit users 1v1 thanks to Kings Shield, and in general there's nothing to really incentivise not using it.

 

[The Elder Dragon]

Just in my own experience, none of the threats on the "Radar" have been all that difficult to deal with. Aegislash relies on mind games, Greninja is literally a magnet for the less experienced/less serious players (meaning they run Battle Bond) and is easily 2HKO'd, Genesect is fairly easy to switch into, Hoopa-Unbound is rather slow, extremely frail on the physical side, and the mixed Life Orb set from ORAS does now have true counters in Tapu Lele and Alolan Muk, and Pheromosa, though it admittedly makes life a nightmare for hyper offense teams, does not hit quite hard enough to pose a threat to well-made balance, bulky offense, or stall teams.
Notice someone missing?

Landorus-Incarnate should be named Terror-Incarnate. Not only does it have access to absurd levels of power, it also has a movepool just as massive as its fellow case members Hoopa-U and Greninja. Sludge Wave mangles the Tapus, Psychic breaks apart Amoongus and Mega Venusaur, and Focus Blast 2HKOs Celesteela (there goes a supposed 'counter'). Then Earth Power at least 2HKOs literally everything that doesn't resist it, bar Chansey. And though it's kind of subpar, it does get Superpower, which beats Chansey (rip another 'counter').

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, but I'm just saying it like I see it.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

Just in my own experience, none of the threats on the "Radar" have been all that difficult to deal with. Aegislash relies on mind games, Greninja is literally a magnet for the less experienced/less serious players (meaning they run Battle Bond) and is easily 2HKO'd, Genesect is fairly easy to switch into, Hoopa-Unbound is rather slow, extremely frail on the physical side, and the mixed Life Orb set from ORAS does now have true counters in Tapu Lele and Alolan Muk, and Pheromosa, though it admittedly makes life a nightmare for hyper offense teams, does not hit quite hard enough to pose a threat to well-made balance, bulky offense, or stall teams.
Notice someone missing?

Landorus-Incarnate should be named Terror-Incarnate. Not only does it have access to absurd levels of power, it also has a movepool just as massive as its fellow case members Hoopa-U and Greninja. Sludge Wave mangles the Tapus, Psychic breaks apart Amoongus and Mega Venusaur, and Focus Blast 2HKOs Celesteela (there goes a supposed 'counter'). Then Earth Power at least 2HKOs literally everything that doesn't resist it, bar Chansey. And though it's kind of subpar, it does get Superpower, which beats Chansey (rip another 'counter').

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, but I'm just saying it like I see it.

I agree with greninja. I can see it honestly dropping to ou this gen at least the battle bond variety.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

cband hoopa-u shits on the whole stall archetype. I do not know how much healthy that is for the meta. I hope he'll get suspected after pheromosa and aegi quickbans/suspects.

 

[Drangonn.]

Just in my own experience, none of the threats on the "Radar" have been all that difficult to deal with. Aegislash relies on mind games, Greninja is literally a magnet for the less experienced/less serious players (meaning they run Battle Bond) and is easily 2HKO'd, Genesect is fairly easy to switch into, Hoopa-Unbound is rather slow, extremely frail on the physical side, and the mixed Life Orb set from ORAS does now have true counters in Tapu Lele and Alolan Muk, and Pheromosa, though it admittedly makes life a nightmare for hyper offense teams, does not hit quite hard enough to pose a threat to well-made balance, bulky offense, or stall teams.
Notice someone missing?

Landorus-Incarnate should be named Terror-Incarnate. Not only does it have access to absurd levels of power, it also has a movepool just as massive as its fellow case members Hoopa-U and Greninja. Sludge Wave mangles the Tapus, Psychic breaks apart Amoongus and Mega Venusaur, and Focus Blast 2HKOs Celesteela (there goes a supposed 'counter'). Then Earth Power at least 2HKOs literally everything that doesn't resist it, bar Chansey. And though it's kind of subpar, it does get Superpower, which beats Chansey (rip another 'counter').

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, but I'm just saying it like I see it.

see rewer's post from a few pages ago he said why aegislash is a nuisance better than I ever could. Mindgames always heavily favor the aegislash user to a disgusting extent, making the oppurtunity cost of using it and throwing it out literally zero. This should tell you something about how easy it is to handle

whenever you talk about whether or not something is broken you assume people will use the good sets, which most of the people do. It doesnt matter at all what dumb people do, the fact remains that greninja is still an extremely potent threat and the fact that some people don't take advantage of its true potential doesnt make it any worse.

ur tellin me that 373 attack life orb high jump kick doesnt hurt every playstyle???? lol that's absolute and utter bullshit and everyone reading this thread knows it. Infact, if we take popular archetypes, theres about ~3 or 4 mons that can take it on decently, that being buzzole (which detests ice beams and loses to special variants), alowak (no recovery, often relied on for role compression and weak to rocks), aegislash and toxapex (trappable and easily chipped). you seem to have the mentality "if it has counters its not broken" and that could not be more wrong. 4 counters out of ~200 is pretty bad. not only that, but 4 counters that share similar checks. Bulky offense gets eaten by a well played pheromosa, and neither does bulky offense or stall. The claim that it only is a pain for hyper offense is absolutely ludicrous. I dont mean to come across as mean or anything, but you gotta look at more than just "does it have counters or not?" here.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

Everyone defending Aegislash kinda sound like the gop. Make OU great again. "Do you have counters?" "Binders and binders of counters" "Okay but like what kind of counters" "So many"

Build a king shield around OU. Keep creative team building and bulky faeries/ psychic types out.

The thing can take out many of it's answers with mind games. There's basically no hard stops to it unless I'm missing something. I'd really like someone that enjoys Aegislash in OU to explain why it's not ban worthy. Give me counters, give me calcs. Give me the whole shebang because I am definitely not convinced it belongs here.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

see rewer's post from a few pages ago he said why aegislash is a nuisance better than I ever could. Mindgames always heavily favor the aegislash user to a disgusting extent, making the oppurtunity cost of using it and throwing it out literally zero. This should tell you something about how easy it is to handle

whenever you talk about whether or not something is broken you assume people will use the good sets, which most of the people do. It doesnt matter at all what dumb people do, the fact remains that greninja is still an extremely potent threat and the fact that some people don't take advantage of its true potential doesnt make it any worse.

ur tellin me that 373 attack life orb high jump kick doesnt hurt every playstyle???? lol that's absolute and utter bullshit and everyone reading this thread knows it. Infact, if we take popular archetypes, theres about ~3 or 4 mons that can take it on decently, that being buzzole (which detests ice beams and loses to special variants), alowak (no recovery, often relied on for role compression and weak to rocks), aegislash and toxapex (trappable and easily chipped). you seem to have the mentality "if it has counters its not broken" and that could not be more wrong. 4 counters out of ~200 is pretty bad. not only that, but 4 counters that share similar checks. Bulky offense gets eaten by a well played pheromosa, and neither does bulky offense or stall. The claim that it only is a pain for hyper offense is absolutely ludicrous. I dont mean to come across as mean or anything, but you gotta look at more than just "does it have counters or not?" here.

Also, alola-marowak gets ton of damage from u-turn adamant phero. I wouldn't call him a check nor a counter.
And ice beam is 1hko on buzzwole.

 

[Ash Borer]

Everyone defending Aegislash kinda sound like the gop. Make OU great again. "Do you have counters?" "Binders and binders of counters" "Okay but like what kind of counters" "So many"

Build a king shield around OU. Keep creative team building and bulky faeries/ psychic types out.

The thing can take out many of it's answers with mind games. There's basically no hard stops to it unless I'm missing something. I'd really like someone that enjoys Aegislash in OU to explain why it's not ban worthy. Give me counters, give me calcs. Give me the whole shebang because I am definitely not convinced it belongs here.

Aegislash isn't really the kind of Pokemon that necessarily needs to be "countered", though Mandibuzz has always been able to do this if you really need one. Because of how slow it is, and its inability to recover, Aegislash can more or less be dealt with by constructing a team that doesn't give it free turns. For example one my teams that ive been laddering with consists of Alakazam / Lele / Rotom W / Lando T / Heatran / Aegislash. Where does the opponent's Aegislash get to come in for free? It doesn't, Both 'Zam and Lele possess Shadow Balls that do about 50% to Aegis, Lando is earthquaking or u-turning most of the time, Heatran and Aegislash should be obvious and it's not as if Aegislash beats Rotom-W in a 1v1 unscathed, nor does it stop volt-switch.

Playing around Aegislash for this team is essentially just accepting the defensive pressure of it, and attacking accordingly. Sometimes I read the opponent and Shadow Ball an incoming Aegislash leaving it pretty much unable to switch into anything for the rest of the match, or sometimes i hit it with Psychic and have to switch out, that's just the game. Aegislash walls nothing on the team, but its not like ive bent over backwards to ensure that. Every set is standard, Shadow Ball on Lele and Zam are not an inconvenience.

For this specific team, I just haven't found Aegislash to be an Uber-like threat to play or build around. This I feel like is the best way to describe Aegislash's effect on the metagame. All 6 of your team members have to be able to hurt Aegislash in some way, otherwise you will give it too many free switch ins. This IS restrictive, but is it Uber-like? I'm not so sure..

 

[QuickBH]

I genuinely think you don't even need every mon in your team to check Aegislash if you have a solid check to it like Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Mantine, Bisharp, Lando-T, etc.. The fortunate news about Aegislash is if you carry one of its checks you kind of wall it hard. I've seen some lure sets but if you click roost you're usually able to spot it and then Aegislash doesn't really become an omnipresent issue. Aegislash's answers are harder to whittle down than say M-Pinsir's checks.

Pokemon like Latios were and still are viable, Aegislash doesn't completely dictate what is and isn't viable, it just plays a big influence.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

Aegislash isn't really the kind of Pokemon that necessarily needs to be "countered", though Mandibuzz has always been able to do this if you really need one. Because of how slow it is, and its inability to recover, Aegislash can more or less be dealt with by constructing a team that doesn't give it free turns. For example one my teams that ive been laddering with consists of Alakazam / Lele / Rotom W / Lando T / Heatran / Aegislash. Where does the opponent's Aegislash get to come in for free? It doesn't, Both 'Zam and Lele possess Shadow Balls that do about 50% to Aegis, Lando is earthquaking or u-turning most of the time, Heatran and Aegislash should be obvious and it's not as if Aegislash beats Rotom-W in a 1v1 unscathed, nor does it stop volt-switch.

Playing around Aegislash for this team is essentially just accepting the defensive pressure of it, and attacking accordingly. Sometimes I read the opponent and Shadow Ball an incoming Aegislash leaving it pretty much unable to switch into anything for the rest of the match, or sometimes i hit it with Psychic and have to switch out, that's just the game. Aegislash walls nothing on the team, but its not like ive bent over backwards to ensure that. Every set is standard, Shadow Ball on Lele and Zam are not an inconvenience.

For this specific team, I just haven't found Aegislash to be an Uber-like threat to play or build around. This I feel like is the best way to describe Aegislash's effect on the metagame. All 6 of your team members have to be able to hurt Aegislash in some way, otherwise you will give it too many free switch ins. This IS restrictive, but is it Uber-like? I'm not so sure..

Well put. I haven't had too much personal issue with the sword this gen but I certainly see a lot of merit in the arguments against it.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Can we get onto another subject now? This subject is really getting old and Aegislash is probably going to get banned due to the popular consensus against it. What other pokemon do you think are banworthy right now?

 

[QuickBH]

I actually want to convince as much people that Aegislash shouldn't be banned (much less QUICKBANNED) because I like him so much, I don't want to just give up on him after genuinely not liking ORAS. If people want to bring up another mon they can bring it, but if there's something interesting I want to say about Aegislash I will surely speak it. Same with any person who believes any mon they think should be OU not be quickbanned.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

Can we get onto another subject now? This subject is really getting old and Aegislash is probably going to get banned due to the popular consensus against it. What other pokemon do you think are banworthy right now?

Besides what's been talked about I feel like mega sableye might be sticking around ou for a lot longer. It took forever for it to get banned in oras and it has a lot more answers and lost its mega turn prankster. It's still great but I think it lost a lot of the reasons it was considered in ubers in the first place.

 

[KingKdot]

Aegislash isn't really the kind of Pokemon that necessarily needs to be "countered", though Mandibuzz has always been able to do this if you really need one. Because of how slow it is, and its inability to recover, Aegislash can more or less be dealt with by constructing a team that doesn't give it free turns. For example one my teams that ive been laddering with consists of Alakazam / Lele / Rotom W / Lando T / Heatran / Aegislash. Where does the opponent's Aegislash get to come in for free? It doesn't, Both 'Zam and Lele possess Shadow Balls that do about 50% to Aegis, Lando is earthquaking or u-turning most of the time, Heatran and Aegislash should be obvious and it's not as if Aegislash beats Rotom-W in a 1v1 unscathed, nor does it stop volt-switch.

Playing around Aegislash for this team is essentially just accepting the defensive pressure of it, and attacking accordingly. Sometimes I read the opponent and Shadow Ball an incoming Aegislash leaving it pretty much unable to switch into anything for the rest of the match, or sometimes i hit it with Psychic and have to switch out, that's just the game. Aegislash walls nothing on the team, but its not like ive bent over backwards to ensure that. Every set is standard, Shadow Ball on Lele and Zam are not an inconvenience.

For this specific team, I just haven't found Aegislash to be an Uber-like threat to play or build around. This I feel like is the best way to describe Aegislash's effect on the metagame. All 6 of your team members have to be able to hurt Aegislash in some way, otherwise you will give it too many free switch ins. This IS restrictive, but is it Uber-like? I'm not so sure..

Pretty good sign that Aegislash is over-centralizing when you have to build a team of Aegislash+5 mons that don't give it a free turn so you don't get wrecked by it. Literally your entire team is built around stopping one Pokemon.

 

[Mencee]

idk what is worse, seeing constant whining about aegislash or actually battling one.

anyway I know lando-i isn't being looked at much due to phero and aegi, but rock polish is still so damn good late game and the calm mind set isn't that bad either, an interesting unban to say the least.

 

[Leo]

I genuinely think you don't even need every mon in your team to check Aegislash if you have a solid check to it like Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Mantine, Bisharp, Lando-T, etc.. The fortunate news about Aegislash is if you carry one of its checks you kind of wall it hard. I've seen some lure sets but if you click roost you're usually able to spot it and then Aegislash doesn't really become an omnipresent issue. Aegislash's answers are harder to whittle down than say M-Pinsir's checks.

Pokemon like Latios were and still are viable, Aegislash doesn't completely dictate what is and isn't viable, it just plays a big influence.

The thing is, Aegislash restricts so many pokemon just by existing in the metagame. Pokemon like M-Medi or M-Hera can't do anything if the opponent has an Aegislash and this gives the opponent and advantage from team preview just because he brought Aegi. It also forces pokemon like Latios to run Shadow Ball otherwise they can't touch Aegi and if it's SubToxic Aegi you literally lose a mon. I don't see how Aegi is healthy in the metagame and how it doesn't restrict teambuilding and so many pokemon's viability

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Actually, you guys are somewhat right about Aegislash being easier to deal with. Most ground types can take it on with relative ease, Aegislash doesn't usually carry Iron Head so Tapu Koko can come in on it without much threat, and most Psychic types have ways of getting around it. As long as it doesn't affect every nook and cranny of the meta, I think I'll be fine with it staying. Don't get me wrong, I still want it gone. But if it stays, I'll be more tolerant of its presence.

Cancer Roach can still get quickbanned and die in hell for all I care though.

 

[Mencee]

The thing is, Aegislash restricts so many pokemon just by existing in the metagame. Pokemon like M-Medi or M-Hera can't do anything if the opponent has an Aegislash and this gives the opponent and advantage from team preview just because he brought Aegi. It also forces pokemon like Latios to run Shadow Ball otherwise they can't touch Aegi and if it's SubToxic Aegi you literally lose a mon. I don't see how Aegi is healthy in the metagame and how it doesn't restrict teambuilding and so many pokemon's viability

Your point is true, except the pokemon you listed + gardevoir's mega stones aren't even available in sumo, so whether aegi invalidates them or not doesn't matter until their mega stones are released.

 

[Leo]

Your point is true, except the pokemon you listed + gardevoir's mega stones aren't even available in sumo, so whether aegi invalidates them or not doesn't matter until their mega stones are released.

Oh true didn't consider that lol, but still those were just some examples off the top of my head, Im pretty sure there are more that are actually available in SuMo meta

 

[Giratina93]

Your point is true, except the pokemon you listed + gardevoir's mega stones aren't even available in sumo, so whether aegi invalidates them or not doesn't matter until their mega stones are released.

Technically, we know that Aegislash would cripple the likes of Megacham and Megavoir because we've seen it happen before, in both XY OU and ORAS OU during its brief stint. These mons are forced to run sub-par sets just to get past Aegislash, and you can see that with Terrakion, which doesn't want to run Earthquake, but has no choice. Psychics must run Shadow Ball if they don't want to become complete Aegislash fodder, and even then, Aegi can just run Pursuit to be guaranteed them out of the game. All fighting types gotta run Earthquake, or else risk either being completely walled, or getting KS'd and being turned into setup fodder for someone else. And lol at the poor Fairy types trying to survive. Unless you're so godly good that you can still pull work even with Aegislash in the tier (Like Pheromosa or Tapu Lele), you are SOL.

Is Aegislash QB worthy? In my honest opinion, not so much as Phermo, but it should definitely be suspect tested, unless everyone here's okay with having borderline zero fighting,psychic, or fairy types in OU for the rest of the generation...

 

[Ash Borer]

Pretty good sign that Aegislash is over-centralizing when you have to build a team of Aegislash+5 mons that don't give it a free turn so you don't get wrecked by it. Literally your entire team is built around stopping one Pokemon.

It's not built around Aegislash simply to stop it. The team itself is very standard, and not all the Pokemon that have great matchups to Aegislash. What I'm trying to show is that a team that is equipped to deal with Aegislash is not bending over backwards to do so. If I had to put an otherwise worthless coverage move on all 6 of my Pokemon, I would say yes, over-centralizing. But, that is just not the case.

 

[Jukain]

Your primary point seems to be that Duggy is a problem because it further enables certain mons that are already (too) strong. in that case how does it make any sense to remove Duggy before the mons it indirectly strengthens? I mean removing Duggy may make certain threats easier to handle but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't be too strong even without his support. in addition to that nobody knows how Duggys usage and impact may change after the threats it facilitates are removed.

IMO hitting Duggy is a bit of a scapegoat hit just because you're punishing him because he happens to take shit that's already over the top and make it even worse. curious to hear your opinion.

I don't intend to argue that Dugtrio is a symptom of these metagame problems, but rather a notable cause and contributing factor. Dugtrio doesn't only cause issues when paired with the (potentially) overpowered Pokemon I referred to. Dugtrio makes dealing with everything more difficult, including some Pokemon anyone would consider balanced such as Celesteela, who becomes significantly more difficult to defeat with Electrics and Heatran trapped by Dugtrio. Heatran in general suffers, as I said, despite being such a critical Pokemon to cover threats in OU. Something that isn't talked about, though, is that the way balanced or stall teams use Dugtrio can be considered unhealthy in many of the same ways. Suddenly Dugtrio traps your key to victory and now you can't take down their defensive core. This wasn't quite as problematic in the past because Dugtrio wasn't strong enough to kill the Pokemon people would use to break (though could still be successful on those types of teams to a lesser extent), but now it has the ability to do so. The issue with trapping inherently is that you can't really counterplay this other than playing incredibly carefully to delay an inevitable end or somehow bait the trapper into a bad situation, which involves less skill and more rolls of the dice than anything else really. The way that Dugtrio restricts counterplay for broken Pokemon and others in the tier with its buff is very unhealthy. I want to get rid of Dugtrio because I think it will be unhealthy even in a theoretical metagame with Pokemon on this thread's list banned.

 

[JohnYiu]

Have you guys thought of quick ban on Z-Conversion and Z-Happy Hour?

I posted on a fb group earlier and seems that many people have already noticed how broken the Z-Conversion Porygon-Z is (Haven't studied Z-Happy Hour yet so I am not gonna do that right now)

Sets

Ghost type
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion

Electric Type
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
- Recover / Shadow Ball / Tri-Attack

These sets are broken as almost everything but hard walls like Chansey, Unaware Clefable die to this thing after setting up while its easy to find the opportunity to set up.

Some may say scarfers / weather sweepers / hard walls can beat it but here's my concern:
1) Both ghost and electric type has only one weaknesses which make this thing tougher to beat
2) Its Def and Sp.Def also get boosted so most of the common scarfers and sweepers won't be able to OHKO it after the setup while it can OHKO almost all of them, let me show some clacs:

calc Vs Scarfed Landorus-T

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 159-187 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Explosion vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 264-311 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 728-860 (228.2 - 269.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

calc Vs Scarfed Latios

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 180-213 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 496-588 (164.7 - 195.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Non-ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

calc Vs Excadrill

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 214-253 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 382-450 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Non-ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 191-225 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 215-253 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

calc Vs Kingdra

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Rain: 303-357 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Rain: 303-357 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Non-ghost type set
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 158-186 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

calc Vs Kabutops

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z in Rain: 230-270 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 362-426 (138.6 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 406-478 (155.5 - 183.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So, Weather Sweepers like Kingdra can beat both sets and Sand Rush Excadrill can only beat the Electric one, but before you beat it, you have to setup the weather and something has to be sacked.

Fat walls can take one or two hits but they won't do much to Porygon-Z, I am not gonna calc for those walls but the things I found that can beat it may probably just Chansey with Toxic, Unaware Clefable, Sp.Def Heatran with Roar

In conclusion: Z-Conversion should be banned.

 

[bruno]

didn't even try to make a real team in this tier yet due to it being a shithole until bans happen but here are some cool z stuff i tested out past few days:

z psycho cut bisharp(possibly on some rock polish set) (252 Atk Bisharp Shattered Psyche (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 170-202 (102.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO), z grass knot tornt(which ignores opp weight, bein always 160bp) (252 SpA Tornadus-T Bloom Doom (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-346 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO), z freeze shock kyub (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 201-237 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO), z bounce gyarados (+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Ferrothorn: 288-340 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), z dynamic rachi(which doesn miss) (252 Atk Jirachi All-Out Pummeling (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 312-368 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), z smart strike/leaf blade kartana(from abr) (+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 268-316 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO, +1 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 339-400 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO), z solarbeam tran(from abr) which is p much better power herb tran, z fly landot(from cicada) (+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 213-251 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO), z bounce azuma (252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 202-238 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)

shit that didn end up bein worth it:
z trick or treat gourgeist(funny meme but p bad at least in ou), z last resort sweeper eevee(too matchup related), z celebrate mixed hurricane gyara(obvious reasons), z submission exca(does a fuckload to skarm and rotow but eh z slide is prob better at the end of the day), z outrage/draco on rocks chomper(not sure yet bout this one tho tbh, more of a bw throwback set), z superpower mixed volcanion for stall(does do like 80 to chans but obv wont do shit to any other style), z icy wind keld(doesn ohko lati), z giga impact sciz(doesn ohko zap)

if z moves stay this meta is gonna be a lot of lures, but it also opens up for creative players so that's nice. Ban aegi.