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If Volcanion was broken thanks to Steam Eruption I would be banning SE just saying, I don't like this idea that a move needs to be banned only when it is broken in multiple Pokémons because next thing you know GFs release a mon with a signature move that is a 100% accurate Zap Cannon and we ban the poor mon because he is the only user of the move, I don't know if Aegis would be broken without KS but I fell like this needs a test and IMO the precedent of banning a mon when we could be banning a signature move is much worse in the long run...
 
I'm sorry, but banning king's shield makes no sense and people need to get over it. We DO NOT nerf and buff Pokemon as we see fit to make the meta look how we want. The whole reason we have tiers is so we aren't tying to make all the mons work in one meta. We leave the mon AS NINTENDO DESIGNED IT and put it in the tier that its strength warrants. That is how this works.

Examples of how this philosophy works:

You don't ban speed boost, you ban blaziken.

Zygarde complete and the other zygardes are considered 2 different mons, much like megas, therefor, you ban the broken mon, not the mons that make it.

You ban swagger but not its users because you can remove the mechanic of swagger without changing how the Pokemon works from its intended design.
 
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King's Shield alone is not the reason Aegislash is considered broken in OU. If King's Shield were to be given to a lower-tier user, for example Steelix, it would not make Steelix worthy of Ubers, though it may drastically increase its usage and viability. King's Shield is not the thing that's broken, it is simply one of the tools Aegislash has that makes it extremely strong in the OU metagame, alongside boosting moves, great offensive stats (in blade form), great bulk (in shield form), priority, decent-power stabs, good coverage, and the power to use its ability to play mindgames with the opponent. As such, King's Shield is not worthy of banning, as it is just part of a larger problem; that being the combination of benefits to using Aegislash.
 
I'll leave my 2 cents.

I see the current meta (still unborn, a yolk in its shell) as being held together, to some degree, precisely by those very pokemon we are looking at with a stern eye now.

Hence, my prediction is that if one of these pokemon is banned, more and still more will have to follow in quick succession like a domino effect.

If Aegislash alone is quickbanned now, the amount of future Suspect tests will likely be no less than 6, with probably at least 4 of those resulting in bans.

Therefore I would like to advocate for a Suspect Test for Aegislash while the meta is given time to mature. It is admittedly very strong, but it may turn out that once we flip over that rock, we won't like what's crawling underneath.

Still, I rather doubt that Aegislash will get a fair hearing in a Suspect test, as it is heavily stigmatized due to being Suspected and Banned twice. The first Suspect resulted in a narrow margin for Ban; the second was a super majority. You could say that those who had the most experience playing with and against Aegislash thought it barely worthy of a ban, while those who first came into contact with it after the temporary drop in ORAS, rather than attempting to learn to play around a new threat in the meta, found it more convenient to throw it back immediately essentially on the grounds that it had already been Banned once. In this way, history gets rewritten to justify the subsequent bans, making Aegislash seem more and more terrifying and overpowered in each retelling. You can see it as well in the "Aegislash has always been broken" or "King's Shield is too strong for OU" or "Best pokemon to ever grace OU" mentality of some of the arguments for its ban. King's Shield itself was never really a central argument for Aegislash being banned, and at the very least, nearly half of voters did not find it broken at the first jousting.

As a bulky offense user, I never found it to be a particular threat, but I am aware of the high amount of influence it exerts against HO teams in particular.

Since Aegislash, regardless of its status in the meta, will not be able to overcome this stigma, after it undergoes the formality of a trial and is inevitably Banned, I would like to see simultaneous or near simultaneous Suspect Tests for Protean Greninja, Hoopa-U, Landorus-I, Pheromosa, and Genesect. Of these, Genesect is the most likely to escape with its life. I strongly recommend that the Suspect Test for Landorus-I be saved for last because its stifling power over balance teams is something that will only come to light with time. I have my suspicions about future issues in the meta once these pokemon are gone, but that bridge can be crossed when we come to it.

A word about Battle Bond Greninja. I find it notably fairer and less broken than Protean Greninja and would like to see them tiered separately. If necessary, ban Protean outright (IDGAF about Kecleon).

This generation, nothing but Zygarde 100% is or will be worthy of a quickban. I understand that multiple Suspect Tests will be taxing, but let's cross our t's and dot our i's. The start of a new generation brings with it extra responsibilities, and it only comes about once every few years.
 
Aegislash either needs to go or KS does. With KS, Aegislash effectively has 150 offence and 150 defence, it makes it very difficult to deal with.
I wouldn't mind a KS ban, Aegislash is very manageable without it and still be able to control the overpowered bug's and fairies.
Something for the OU council to think about.

On the other hand Genesect hasn't caused many problems, it may be OU material this time around. But, Pheromosa needs to go, not much more needs to be said.
 
Considering King's Shield is a move exclusive to Ageislash [And Smergle] it dosen't really fall into the Swagger case of 'this is broken on pretty much anyone who gets it' because it's exclusive.

It's like the 'Ban Dark Void and free Darkrai' argument. King's Shield is an integral part of Ageislash, and if that's what makes Ageislash broken; it's still Ageislash that is broken and should be banned. Did Speed Boost get banned to free Blaziken? No, because Speed Boost isn't broken on Ninjask, Sharpedo, Scolipede and Yanmega.

The only time something that isn't a pokemon should be banned is when there are multiple abusers and the majority of said abusers are broken due to that factor; or it is inherently uncompetitive. See: Moody; which could let Bidoof sweep in Ubers and was massively uncompetitive reduceing games to coin tosses. Another example; Gen 5's DrizzleSwim ban; which probobly would have either seen the banning of an entire playstyle [Although I still think Drizzle should have been banned in Gen 5] or would have seen Kingdra; Ludicolo and Kabutops at least go to Ubers.

If King's Shield made 10 pokemon broken; then maybe you could make a case for banning it. But only Ageislash is broken. Hence; the problem is Ageislash. King's Shield cannot be proven to be the issue when no-one else gets it except Smergle.

I'm sure this discussion was done to death both in X/Y and ORAS' Ageislash tests. There isn't much point bringing it up again.
I think there is. We are in a new generation, and if we are not sure about king's shield, the best way to discover is testing it, right? ^^
 
If speed boost was an ability exclusive to Blaziken you can bet we would have banned it, btw we may be facing the same issue move x mon with Zygarde in the future this is why I feel like we need to set the good precedent of testing the signature move right now, so in the future we can do the same with Zygarde and any other mon who has a signature move that pushes them over the edge...
 
testing the signature move right now,
Testing it is pointless.

I'll rephrase/frame what I said earlier.

  • Generally, before we ban something, we suspect test it.
  • BUT, a suspect test doesn't actually test for banworthiness. All it tests for is "is the metagame preferable with/without this pokemon/ability/move?"
  • Most of the time, and probably all of the time up to now, the two have overlapped to the point that one indicates the other.
  • But any reasonable nerf (sans SBall, sans Sacred Sword, etcetera) to Aegislash would result in the same outcome in a suspect test; a preferable metagame.
  • Ergo we're not really testing King's Shield for banworthiness at all, we're only looking to see if the meta would be better with a nerfed Aegislash.
  • We already know that's true!* So there's no point to the test.
King's Shield would be nothing but a scapegoat for the full suite of Aegislash's problem traits, purely because it can be targeted without a complex ban.

That said, we've never had an previous situation like this IIRC, (please correct me if I'm wrong) where we have an opportunity to "scapegoat" a ban for the sake of a nerf, without having it be a complex ban at the same time (except maybe Darkrai but Darkrai's OP even without Dark Void, Aegislash toes a new line). We *can* do it. Should we? That's not for anybody outside of the council to say, so I'm not gonna elicit an opinion on whether this is a suspect discrepancy or an balancing opportunity. But suspect testing kings shield would still be really dumb.

*ok yeah admittedly that's a bit hairy, was hoping I'd get away with it :P But if Aegislash is a problem, because he is too strong, then by inference making him weaker makes him less of a problem. And we hope that if he's less of a problem, the metagame would improve marginally. A couple of small logic-jumps, admittedly, but none that are too outlandish.
 
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erisia

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Just my two cents so feel free to ignore but Pheromosa in SUMO OU reminds me a lot of Sceptile in ORAS NU. It's both one of the fastest and most potent offensive threats at the same time, and it has a relatively large amount of versatility that can make it difficult to check (physical sets, special sets, heck even scarf sets with Naughty natures etc). It somewhat invalidates offensive threats that it outspeeds such as Landorus-I and Greninja that are suspect-worthy in their own right. Moreover, a powerful STAB U-turn and neutrality to Stealth Rock lets it get away with a huge amount, as even if the opponent does have a check, Pheromosa can usually just pivot out of it at no real cost. It strikes me as a lot more immediately unbalanced than Aegislash, and I'm not sure if I agree with any more quick bans, but if one's going to happen then Pheromosa should get the boot.

Aegislash is a difficult one but I think a quick ban is too hasty regardless. It'll be slightly less ubiquitous if Pheromosa is removed and even then, having one mon be extremely popular isn't necessarily a sign of a bad meta that needs fixing (see Landorus-T in ORAS OU and Flygon in RU). Sure different threats might be more and less viable than in ORAS due to Aegislash's excellent defensive typing, but this really doesn't strike me as a good reason for a ban. People have said countless times that Aegislash isn't offensively broken and defensively it lacks recovery and has a few exploitable weaknesses, so it doesn't seem defensively broken either. King's Shield provides a lot of 50/50s but you can still build teams to minimise the impact of this move (use Substitute in the free turn, use a status move, etc).

It's definitely one of the best mons available at the moment but being centralising isn't necessarily a bad thing and I think it should go through a proper suspect test with the other offensive threats once Pheromosa is gone so that people can think more rigorously about it.
 
  • Ergo we're not really testing King's Shield for banworthiness at all, we're only looking to see if the meta would be better with a nerfed Aegislash.
  • We already know that's true! So there's no point to the test.
Just pointing out that we technically don't know that the meta would be better with a nerfed Aegislash. That's putting the cart before the horse.

In any case, I'd like to see it remain in its entirety or be banished in its entirety.

This suggestion of lobotomizing pokemon so that they can return half-drooling to stand in OU again seems ungraceful, in a word.
 
"making Starmie and Jirachi unviable and almost UU material" a strong argument against banning the Sword n' Sheild but "making Volcarona and co. unviable and almost UU material" a laughable point against SR and being told to "get gud and it's been there forever", but I digress...


As much as I would like to keep Aegislash in OU by banning King Shield, I stand with our longtime policy of not gutting pokemon and declipping their wings by removing their "broken" signature moves and let them be. I don't think we can gut him like that because then there is nothing stopping us from actually "cartridge hacking" the game afterwards and move to a point where we adjust stats and change mechanics instead of banning stuff.

By design and explicit intent Aegislash was made around King's shield, his (no such thing as girly ghosts) ability to change forms is 100% reliant on the move, his very stats where spread revolving on the fact he can switch to and from Shield, banning KS and letting him wander around OU is essentially creating a new pokemon.
 

Martin

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Even without King's Shield it's still utter cancer so idk why this is even a discussion. Either way Aegislash is a) overcentralising and b) a bottleneck to meta development, and it's not even like Aegislash isn't good without King's Shield. Crumbler and SD are both sets which function incredibly well without King's Shield, and it being expressly "broken" was never the ban argument in the first place.
 
Aegislash shouldn't just be "on the radar" it should be on the fucking ISIS watch list. It's such a ludicrously good mon and to see an infinite number of "well uhh if you just build to check it its not a big problem!" posts absolutely befuddles me. You're at an absolutely automatic disadvantage if you're not running it, it's that good. It causes a ludicrous amount of stupid ass "mind-games" which are impossible to win consistently because if you're laddering you don't know if you're playing MimikyuRocks69420 or fucking Ojama so getting in their head is an exercise in futility. Ban it please!

JohnathanBlastoise, 1214 ELO with a 61-49 record on the pokebank OU ladder, in insanely stupid to listen to voice: weeellllla ctually my team with garchomp, landorus-i, entei, uhh mega blastoise and hoopa unbound (ftw) has no problems with aegislash., maybe if you just build better then u'll defeat it with ease.

me, in mature and thoughtful voice which indicates that i have been around the block: Actually, Aegislash is unhealthy for the OU metagame and should be brought back to Ubers.
 
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What happens if a previously balanced pokemon becomes over-the-top by running Z-sets? This is something I definitely think is going to happen eventually. I think it's agreed that we can't ban a Z-crystal or Z-move when it's only broken on one/few pokemon, but at the same time it would be a shame to lose an OU staple because of this new mechanic, especially ones that keep many other pokemon in check (without being overcentralizing, that is.)
What happens if a move with low distribution is too strong as a Z-move? For example: in the event that Porygon-Z's Z-conversion set is found to be too strong in whatever tier, would P-Z, Conversion, or Z-Conversion be banned?
If a Z-move is inherently too strong, would it be banned, or would the most potent users of it be banned? I think Hyper Beam and Giga Impact are candidates, they hit very hard with no drawback (sans the item and moveslot,) have very good neutral coverage, and are given to virtually every pokemon. However, if they're only broken when used on a few specific sets on, say, a dozen pokemon, and fine on the other hundreds of pokemon, what gets banned?
If a Z-move is banned, would the combination of that move and its Z-crystal be banned, or would using it in battle be banned? Say for whatever reason that Z-Bulk Up is too strong on nearly anything that gets it. Bulk Up still has competitive use, unlike things like Splash or Celebrate, and conceivably one could want to run a set that includes Bulk Up and another Z-fighting move. Would this be accommodated?

That's all I can think of right now. There's certainly gonna be some decisions that have to be made.
I guess that, most of the time, if a z-move ends up being broken on every user or almost every user, we shouldn't ban the users, nor the base move, nor the z-crystal, but rather, we should ban the z-move itself.

And I don't mean doing a complex ban of "z-crystal+move isn't allowed", because, like you said, that would bring some problems. Imagine if Z-Hyper Beam ends up being too good the meta, so Normalium-Z + Hyper Beam is banned. But now, if I want to run Z-Protect and Hyperbeam in the same set, I'm not allowed, even tho I wasn't going to use Z-Hyper Beam.

I say we should ban a certain Z-Move in the same way we banned Mega Rayquaza. With Mega Rayquaza, we didn't ban Dragon Ascent, and we didn't ban Rayquaza. We banned the act of Mega Evolving Rayquaza, the act of pressing the "Mega Evolution" button in the bottom screen.

In this way, in a metagame where Z-Hyper Beam is banned, you can use Normalium-Z AND Hyper Beam in the same moveset, but you can't click the "Z-Hyper Beam" move.
In a simulator, this is easy to implement (I guess).
In 3DS, we just tell the players "You can use Normalium-Z and Hyper Beam in the same mon, but don't you dare to click Z-Hyper Beam", in the same way we tell players to not click Spore against 2 different Pokémon or to not go nuts with Leppa Berry + Heal Pulse. We just ban the act of pressing the "Z-Hyper Beam" button.

In a scenario were a Pokémon gets broken with a certain Z-Move, without the Z-Move being broken when used by other Pokémon, or without the user being broken by itself (Like, Z-RD Manaphy), I think we should ban the Z-move, even if it is broken only in one Pokémon. So, in case of Z-RD Manaphy, Manaphy doesn't get banned, but rather, Z-RD gets banned, even if Z-RD Keldeo is not broken.
 
Sword and FemBug should go with a Quickban imo. They aren't actually that busted in a traditional sense, neither will 6-0 teams with 0 effort like Zygarde-C was, and yes, they do have answers in the tier. The problem is Aegislash and Pheremosa both stifle team building to an unprecedented degree, Aegislash itself making 3 entire types (Fighting, Fairy and Psychic) almost unplayable, and Pheremosa pretty much murdering Scarfers/non priority evenge killers as a possible role, because they will just auto lose to it. You either have them on your team or 2 answers to them specifically minimum. otherwise you instant lose. This warping of the meta around themselves has always, at least in my time mostly lurking on Smogon for the past 2 gens, why we ban mons. Hydreigon had no consistent answers in Gen 5 yet was never banned (or even close to it), while mons with answers, limited as they may be, like Tornadus-T went to the abyss of Ubers.

Everything else on the radar tho, i think can safely make it to the Suspect phase. Aegislash and Pheremosa are that stifling we can't get a good idea of how good these mons are with current team composition. Lando is alot better than it normally is at the start of the gen because alot of stuff thats viable is ground weak, it normally takes alot longer for Lando to be on the ubers radar, while Genesect, i find, is a bit underwhelming with Volt Turn answers all over the place. Tho i hold Genesect in particular to a ridiculously high standard so maybe i'm missing something here.

Greninja and Hoopa in particular i find should be broken yet aren't yet, but clearly will be post Aegismosa. Its a weird meta, and it all revolves around those two.

TL;DR Quickban Aegislash and Pheremosa, Suspect everything else on the radar.
 

Leo

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Tbh I don't see nerfing Aegislash by removing King's Shield an option. As JackTheGamer already said, we don't nerf or adjust pokemon just to fit them into a meta. If King's Shield makes Aegislash broken, then we don't ban it just to have it OU. If we were to do complex band we could allow Primal-Kyogre in ou with only Water Gun. This is why Blaziken and Gren were banned in the past instead of the abilities that made them broken. I don't know what the Tier Leader think but I'm against these complex bans and I don't think they're healthy for the tier.
 
My argument still stands that I'll defend Aegislash tooth and nail, I did not like ORAS at all and I would rather have Aegislash than be pidgeonholed into using 2-3 Pokemon just because of certain threats who aren't exactly broken but when you combine them put a ridiculous amount of strain on teambuilding just because we thought that diversity in a meta = good. If it's truly a zero sum game than I will gladly pick Aegislash to stay.

I'm not going to respond to anybody who says that "King's Shield is a complex ban and sets a precedent" when I spent my ass saying why it's different only to hear the same arguments over and over again. If people want the option though, it's there and it's actually risk free. Like if it proves to be broken just ban the mon as a whole? (Aegislash isn't broken as is imo though) @_@ We're actually only a week into this meta. It's a safe option for those who think that Aegislash has some dumb elements that is easy to nerf but don't want to remove all the positive attributes of what it holds in the meta and one which I'd actually support.
 
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M Sab and Landorus Ban.

I hope Aegi stays it is really nice to have it around again. If Aegi gets banned we will ban all those fairies as well, cause players will realize the Tapus will be nearly unstoppable and would love to have aegi around again.
Lol at those people thinking dug is OP. You gotta be kidding.
 
M Sab and Landorus Ban.

I hope Aegi stays it is really nice to have it around again. If Aegi gets banned we will ban all those fairies as well, cause players will realize the Tapus will be nearly unstoppable and would love to have aegi around again.
Lol at those people thinking dug is OP. You gotta be kidding.
I don't see what Aegi has to do with the tapus being broken or not. The only tapu Aegi can actually deal with is Lele and specs shadow ball still hurts. Koko 2hko's it and even bulu can 2hko with wood hammer.
 
Honestly if it was my choice I would go this route in this order:

1.Quick Ban Pheromosa: While I feel Aegislash is more broken I don't think we really should waste our time with this thing, it's broken in an Aegi meta, why would we want to test it in an Aegi-less meta ? just quick ban it now.
2.Quick Ban Aegislash: While this is a strawman argument, I feel like people who want this thing to stay are either A) sadists B) people who happened to build anti Aegislash teams so they think it's not broken or C) people who want it to stay so it can check other broken things. plz quickban
3.Suspect Genesect:
While Genesect doesn't deserve a quickban, I think a lot of people really undermine how good it is, people talk about bulky water types to check it and act like TBolt is just a niche option when I personally never encountered a Genesect without TBolt and I have played tons of games. Not to mention the fact that Rock Polish with Ebelt/LO is similair to RP Lando in the fact that it's impossible to stop with offense.
4.Suspect Hoopa-U: I think fat teams are bound to become important with threats like RP Lando, Greninja and ShiftGear Magearna in the tier, so people will shy away a little bit from offense and turn to either BO, Balance or straight up fat, and that's where Hoopa-U will shine and be deemed suspect worthy.
5.Suspect Greninja: I think with faster threats gone, Greninja will run less of water shurikens and more of coverage to wallbreak like Extrasensory to deal with Toxapex and Amoonguss in one slot, and that's when it's gonna be clear that it needs a suspect.
6.Suspect Manaphy
6.Suspect Landorus-I
7.Suspect M-Mawile
8.Suspect M-Sableye
9.Suspect Arena Trap
10.Suspect Tapu Koko
11.Suspect Toxapex
12.Suspect Porygon Z
13.Suspect Tapu Lele

I think if at least more than half of these babies get banned, we'll finally get a kind of healthy metagame but we'll see.

Edit: of course, when I say suspect I don't mean straight up ban, what I mean is that we should look INTO these mons.
Edit2: also please never bring back Shadow Tag, and plz get rid of Baton Pass and Swagger.
 
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Jukain

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I don't really know why anyone is complaining about Mega Sableye. The passive hazard setters that it beats aren't even that good or common in the current metagame. It isn't creating matchup issues because stall itself has too many matchup issues to be consistently successful in the current metagame. There are more good offensive Fairies and strong Pokemon that can break through Sableye. Burn is nerfed, so it's less effective at wearing opposing Pokemon down. What exactly is there to complain about? Mega Sableye complaints seem like residual from ORAS rather than actual legitimate complaints about its state in the current OU tier.
 

Funbot28

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Ya I kinda agree now that Aegislash is really the mon that is gluing the meta in place right now. Its pretty OP and can be argued that it is mandatory on almost every team, but I feel we kinda need it right now until the meta stabilizes with a few more bans (ie: Pheromosa and maybe Genesect). It really is not deserving of a quickban at this point, but definitely should be suspected A.S.A.P when we finish with initial quickban tiering.

Also out of all things rn, why are people mentioning Mega Sableye??, we aint in ORAS anymore....
 
So, my thoughts when it comes to Aegislash is more in tone with "nah no need to ban it", but I guess I'll accept a suspect if it comes down to it. I'm now gonna give me two Mike Pence on the typical ban arguments, from a sleepy man.

"It creates 50/50s"
Hello? Pokemon as a whole is one, large 50/50 game. Either you predict right or you predict wrong. This argument may be better if these 50/50s are win/lose situations, but they rarely are with Aegis, because he has a tendency to die in the mid game. He is, after all, used as defensive glue in similar line as Landog and Rotom-W in ORAS OU (shit meta imo).

"He invalidates mons"
That's the job of defensive mons.

"He outclasses mons that perform similar roles"
Yeah, he does. What of it? Raikou outclasses Jolteon and Manectric, too.

"He is overcentralizing"
ORAS OU Landog. BW Politoed/Keldeo. HG/SS Heatran. RSE Salamence. GSC Snorlax. RBY Tauros. There will always be a force that centralixe the game around it. This is a poor argument and has always been IMO.



Also the King Shield ban argument lmao
 
Steven Snype shadow tag is banned

That said buffed Dugtrio is definitely high up on my list of things I'd like to see suspected/possibly banned in the somewhat near future (within a few suspect tests) as well. We'll see how things go, but I'd honestly rather get rid of Dugtrio before half this list. The reason is because Dugtrio is actively making many potential broken suspects in the metagame more difficult to deal with. It's probably at least partially due to lack of awareness, but Heatran is uncommon right now. This in a metagame where the most important thing Heatran has checked when it was legal in both of the past two generations is prevalent. To be less specific and more general, Dugtrio is exacerbating the issues balanced/defensive teams and even offense have in dealing with these threats and many other prevalent threats in the OU tier. With Dugtrio's buff, it has access to trapping more Pokemon than before and is generally less mediocre. The reason it was never banned in the past is that a mediocre Attack stat severely limited what it could do. With that barrier overcome, I think Dugtrio has to come to a point where many of the same competitiveness arguments and such attached to Shadow Tag can be applied to it at a practical level, not just a theoretical or philosophical level. The effect that it has on the tier is purely negative, making dealing with this chaotic metagame even more difficult. I've never been a fan of trapping, but I could accept Dugtrio because of its limited nature. At this point, it's already becoming nearly unbearable to deal with.

e: I should add an important point. Dugtrio can legitimately run sets other than Sash now. Specifically, it can run sets like Band, Scarf, Life Orb, and even Z-move...they are actually viable, not bad gimmicks. Even though you generally know what Dugtrio can do, there's a bit more mystery to it now than just the only set it could viably run.
Your primary point seems to be that Duggy is a problem because it further enables certain mons that are already (too) strong. in that case how does it make any sense to remove Duggy before the mons it indirectly strengthens? I mean removing Duggy may make certain threats easier to handle but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't be too strong even without his support. in addition to that nobody knows how Duggys usage and impact may change after the threats it facilitates are removed.

IMO hitting Duggy is a bit of a scapegoat hit just because you're punishing him because he happens to take shit that's already over the top and make it even worse. curious to hear your opinion.
 
The thing is that most of the 50 50s with aegislash are heavily in favor of the aegislash user. If the opposing pokémon predicts wrongly, he will likely be very screwed and will not be able to deal with aegi, because its playing around your 'aegi switch in' and it may beat you from there, while if the aegi user predicts wrongly, the aegi user is not in a terrible position, it may die but he still has a team behind him. 50 50s happens naturally in pokémon, but on aegis case, it often forces his checks into a 50 50 otherwise they are not his checks.

I have not played enough sumo to opine if aegi is broken or not broken. But I did play alot of xy and aegi was simply way too good in there. Most of the time, it operates as a 720 BST mon. It had very few counterplay. If alot of broken pokemons become even more broken with aegislash gone, I believe they all should be banned instead of staying in a false sense of balance. ORAS OU had alot of pokémon banned is not a bad meta right now.

And im sorry but BW tornadus-t was miles better than hydreigon ever was.Hydreigon has no true counter, but it has counterplay. It cant switch in very often, is slow for an offensive mon and has a vulnerable typing, it also has to predicts his moves correctly to be very effective. Its hard to counter but very easy to check. Tornadus-T was the fastest mon in the meta and could bruteforce beat his switchins spamming hurricanes and confusion hax, and it was impossible to be worn down due to regenerator. Very hard to check, especially with rainfall over his head.
 
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