On The Radar

[Deleted User 229847]

Der Twist the creativity in team building is present just because su/mo is up since 5 days or so. People are trying the new pokemons, but that doesn't change the fact that aegi is omnipresent and pheromosa is the reincarnation of Christ. I do think that if you wait 1/2 weeks, the meta is just gonna stabilize on those two mons, and the building will become pretty much braindead.
Anyway, if we are gonna quickban aegi, we need to quickban pheromosa too. They are closely tied together and if you quickban aegi, pheromosa is gonna break the tier even more.
In my opinion the first suspect should be genesect. His moveset is too impredictable, way too strong, even though i'm talking with 2+ days of team building with pheromosa and aegi still in the game.

 

[Niadev]

Apparently people want Celesteela and Toxapex banned? What?

Celesteela: Celesteela is a great Pokemon but hardly broken. It's got more or less the stats of a slightly inferior flat 100 mythical with slightly superior attacking stats and Skarm's typing. Celesteela is also somewhat simple to wear down due to a lack of reliable recovery (Leech Seed isn't great unless you want to spam Leech Seed on predicted switches), a similar flaw to what Ferrothorn has. Tapu Koko (and likely Thundy-I later), Heatran, and basically every non passive electric or fire type in the meta can pressure it immensely, wearing it down for something else. It's not exactly Aegislash who resists 2 thirds of the entire type roster either, and Leech Seed is annoying at worst (though still annoying). Annoying, yes, but it's just as annoying as Ferrothorn if you don't have fire moves. Also lmao at the fact it doesn't even OHKO Heatran with EQ.

Toxapex: Three words: Passive. As. Fuck. Basically any Pokemon not named Numel can take Scald as a 2hko easy at worst. This is especially annoying for it when you have sweepers like Lando-I and Mega Charizard X (if rocks are down) doing the rounds. Hell, Mega Xard can DDance up to +6 on it with a Roost set if Toxa's not running Haze and at that point the game's over, meaning you lose one of your already likely lacking moveslots (toxapex's ideal set is something like toxic/baneful bunker/toxic spikes/toxic/scald/infestation). Furthermore, a good number of 'mons can break it outright - Lando-I, Hoopa-U, Latis, Tapu Lele, Koko, Bulu, Xurkitree, Alakazam, CB Duggy (who also traps it O:), Excadrill, Garchomp, Lando-T, Magnezone, Necrozma, Starmie (when Aegi gtfos)... I think you get the idea. It's a great Pokemon right now because it can beat Pheroslash, yes, but I don't see it sticking around for the long haul in terms of viability due to being passive. Probably going to be great on stall and some balance later down the line but definitely not broken.

On Genesect: I don't feel it's a quickban worthy mon at all, most likely a later suspect but I don't see it as particularly broken right now. Scarf is great on offense, yes, and it has a stupid amount of sets due to insane coverage but it's not a 'mon that to me screams "THE CHECK DOES NOT EXIST, REPEAT, THE CHECK DOES NOT EXIST" like zyggy-c or mega mence, nor to a lesser extent is it a 'mon that makes me think "holy shit I need x mon on every team to not autolose" like pheromosa, mega kang and mega blaziken. And yes, while it does provide great support on offense, it's nowhere near the extent of mega "I pick what I trap" gengar. I feel people are overhyping it just a little bit by wanting a quickban for it. Don't quickban, suspect later down the line.

On Hoopa-U: Bugs and U-turn in general are everywhere rn, but it's counter list is still non-existent. Not sure on this tbh. Though what we're doing letting a 680 BST 'mon with the special attack of Kyu-W and attack stat of Slaking with an amazing coverage pool to abuse both in the first place is beyond me tbh, even if it's defense and typing is trash, along with only passable speed. The whole reason we let KyuB down was because it couldn't use it's attack stat to it's fullest extent, unlike Hoopa-U who can easily use both to a superb degree. But ofc, the meta is pretty offensive rn and Hoopa-U struggles without using the bad scarf set. Still can't OHKO bulky resists such as Ferrothron like Z move Manaphy in rain after a TG, though :P

 

[gengod]

Aegislash seems quite overrated at the moment tbh. It's obviously very good but definitely not broken by any means.

It honestly feels like people simply don't like dealing with it as opposed to it being an "unbearable" mon.

 

[Ajwf]

So opinion on Lando-I and Greninja.

I was all for banning them last gen and actually stupidly pissed when I heard Lando-I was coming down this gen. Stall now has options to counter this in Celesteela (I'm pretty sure it works) and Mantine (definitely works). These are VIABLE options that are added onto other prior choices like Cresselia, Mandibuzz and Mega Latias (assuming ofc we get it). Decidueye himself isn't AWFUL into lando-I:

0- Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Decidueye: 75-91 (40.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Decidueye: 68-81 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah... Anyways. There are now options if you want to take care of him. And if for whatever reason he starts running HP Electric for Mantine, Gliscor is a viable counter then. IDK how he does vs offense because thus far I've only run rain/hail (slush rush) and that's sort of a natural fuck-you to lando-i.


As for Greninja, he's also fine to stall. We already had Chansey (and P2 :> ) but now Toxapex and Mantine both cover it. He's still annoying, but no more than anything else. This isn't seriously different from last gen but there are now more available options that are basically already god-tier on stall.


Hoopa-U is what scares me right now. I'm not sure exactly what I do to counter it other than go back to some insanely unviable shit. It's faster than Decidueye, so I lack the ability to even combat it with stall's only real u-turner. Celesteela is close, but no cigar. It's really hard to talk about Hoopa-U without knowing what set it runs but needless to say, it can adapt to screw anything on stall with relative ease. If someone has some innovation here, I'd gladly here it but right now I see it having the same issues as last gen: Everything slower might as well just go bridge jumping when that thing's out.

 

[Dangus Khan]

Hey guys, Long time player but just started contributing to the forum.

Yea Pheramosa is insane and needs to be banned. Super fast, super strong physical damage and can u-turn infinitely. Theres not really an answer to that kind of damage, odd coverage (bug and fighting with crazy high phys damage) and speed combo mixed with pivoting. And the counters to her that everyone is listing should also be banned (Aegislash and Toxapex.)


Why no one talks about merciless toxapex, I have no idea. The un-invested damage from venoshock merciless is crazy, and when people start running that instead of regenerator, the sets are going to be too diverse to not warrant packing Toxapex up and sending it to Ubers heaven. Stockpile is mad strong on this poke too. Yes, Toxapex can't do much about Steel types because of the poison immunity but who the hell cares when he can just scald your Mega Metagross/Lucario/Excadrill and achieve the same thing that most bulky water types do better than they do just as an aside.

Toxapex is broken. You shouldn't list pokemon you also want banned as justified counters to not banning other pokemon. Makes no sense.

 

[QuickBH]

I do not think Aegislash should be banned, or at least not for now. I always considered Aegislash somewhat of a mon that provides an offensive check to Pokemon that otherwise completely dominate out of playstyles while being fairly "easy to use" and forcing a team to run a specific Pokemon just so they don't get destroyed by specific Pokemon typically being Mega Medicham, Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor, and Mega Charizard X. Just to have an answer to them, building a typical bulky offensive team was rather difficult, and you had to force yourself to carry a specific mon on a bulky offense team being Clefable and most definitely Landorus-Therian. Aegislash seems to fix the amount of stress you need by a significant portion. Instead of having to put a Landorus-T and Clefable to check these mons rather shakily, you can run an Aegislash, which check all 3 effectively besides Mega Charizard-X, with M-Scizor being the toughest of the three. I can understand that Aegislash might be considered a big centralization, but I actually consider it a good thing. I don't consider diversification to be the crutch of competitive battling, and I much prefer this more controlled metagame which allows you to cover more threats in a series whose power creeps ever more per generation.

However, I would like to see if we can seek a middle ground and do something that is similar to how lower tiers banned Drought in previous generations, and that is to ban King's Shield.

What a ban on Kings Shield means:

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- King's Shield significantly reduces the amount of reliable checks Aegislash has. Pokemon such as Charizard X, Assault Vest Tangrowth, and any choice band user with a super effective move should be able to reliably beat Aegislash now don't because of essentially a coin flip as to whether you'll land that move or you'll get that -2 Attack drop and will have to switch. This can be insanely demanding and I understand that having 2 dedicated Aegislash answers simply because of that bs is way too restrictive. However, Aegislash provides useful utility to the meta with it's typing which I think needs to be considered, Aegislash provides necessary checks to mons, including Tapu Lele, Mega Medicham (you were forced to run 252/252 bold clef on almost every team because the rest of its checks were insanely passive), M-Diancie, and others I'll remember when I play ORAS that forced your ass to run Lando-T so you would have a decent check to these teams. I would like to ban Kings Shield instead of Aegislash as a whole to meet a middleground.


- "But isn't this a complex ban?" No this is not, notice how I didn't say "Ban Kings Shield on Aegislash?" This is because that would be a complex ban because it allows a Pokemon only if it has to follow a specific rule other Pokemon don't. Here however, this is simply a blanket ban on Kings Shield much like we did a blanket ban on Shadow Tag because of Gothitelle. There is no complexity about it, if you have a Pokemon carry King's Shield (which is and should only be Aegislash) it will not be allowed.


1. The ban on Kings Shield will heavily nerf Aegislash's defensive capabilities thanks to the removal 50/50s. Aegislash now consistently loses to Pokemon like SD Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, etc. instead of it being a game of pure 50/50s. Aegislash also loses defensively to a bigger variety of Pokemon due to the lack of the defense drop and inability to switch forms. Pokemon such as the ones aforementioned, and others such as AV Tangrowth, Tyranitar, Mega Lopunny etc.. (again, I can't remember other extras but there are more)


2. Aegislash will still have an effect on the meta. Thanks to its great offensive STAB in the form of Shadow Ball and with its great defensive typing, it can check very relevant Pokemon in the tier, including Mega Medicham, Mega Diancie, Mega Heracross, as well as the things a typical steel would check, such as Latios. This comes at a cost, however. Aegislash, while being able to reliably check them, still have to fear potential coverage moves, and without King's Shield having to keep Aegislash involves a lot more skill, as after the first attack you will not be able to go back into defensive stance until it switches out, meaning that it will have access to its base 50 defenses, essentially meaning that after the first turn it doesn't have the bulk nor the speed to get more than a first hit off before it has to swap.

- Overall, I think banning Kings Shield on Aegislash would be a good medium. It is a solid check to a plethora of relevant Pokemon while having more opportunity to be punished for poor plays and much less coinflips. This does not break any precedent that Smogon has done in the past as this is no more of a complex ban than Shadow Tag and Drizzle for lower tiers in Gen 6.

Replays:

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For those who are curious, I challenged solid players using Aegislash without Kings Shield, I've had success and we both played rather solid. As you can see, thanks to the lack of being able to revert forms, I've had to play considerably safer and used Aegislash essentially as a glue to top tier mons.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214050
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-215974
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214088
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-478956969
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-481054106
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-215679

 

[Ajwf]

Dangus Khan On the subject of Toxapex and this 'set diversity' you suggest, realize that there's only one real advantageous move loadout toxapex has. Haze/Scald/Toxic/Recover is it on Regenerator. Don't have haze, lose to every booster in tier. Don't have scald, deal no damage. Don't have toxic, have no way to BEAT anything in tier. I'd argue recover is the least useful of his moves on that set due to regen's existence but still. Even running mericless (to which I question as you need to choose tspikes or toxic and place those before merciless begins to crit and you're still on a low-damage mon altogether), your set probably looks like Venoshock/Toxic/Recover/Scald. Not the most diverse set ever.

Also remember that Amoongus/Levitators/Flying/Opposing Toxapex all decrease the viability of his tspikes. We thought this would be a huge draw to toxapex but in practice there's just very little practical application in OU. Toxic is straight up better to hit levitators/flying types, which normally there's about 2 per team. Toxapex walls a lot but that's about it. He can't DO much with that and the team needs to be focused to assist that major weakness.

 

[Super Muchacho]

Hello everyone!
The Council will be actively watching this thread so please don't think your voice won't be heard should you post.

Okay nice.

Aegislash

is probably the most wished ban for good reason. I dont have to tell you why, i just request you to ban

Pheromosa

along with it, because without aegislash every team must run Mantine or Toxapex (or both).
The next nominee is

Genesect

. I think without Aegislash this thing will become stronger. But i think, not i know, thats why i would watch a short period without former mentioned just to make sure.

Everything else i would give a suspect later, but now its to early. And maybe i would add Toxapex to the suspect list. Its very strong (bulk+scald+bunker+ability+recover+tspikes+haze+typing(no toxic)+burn nerf) and can win matchs alone if the counter is down. But its at the lower end of the suspect list.
But thats just my superior opinion.

I know i probably dont have to mention this, but you never know. Please dont bring Darkrai to OU just because one of its attacks has 30% less accuracy. Those people should play dice games instead.


Have a nice day!

PS: You forgot to ban Z-Celebrate + Baton Pass. I can hurt the bpass rule as much as i want now
PPS: I also apreciate the idea to ban kings shield instead of whole Aegislash.

 

[Zukrad]

Hey guys, Long time player but just started contributing to the forum.

Yea Pheramosa is insane and needs to be banned. Super fast, super strong physical damage and can u-turn infinitely. Theres not really an answer to that kind of damage, odd coverage (bug and fighting with crazy high phys damage) and speed combo mixed with pivoting. And the counters to her that everyone is listing should also be banned (Aegislash and Toxapex.)


Why no one talks about merciless toxapex, I have no idea. The un-invested damage from venoshock merciless is crazy, and when people start running that instead of regenerator, the sets are going to be too diverse to not warrant packing Toxapex up and sending it to Ubers heaven. Stockpile is mad strong on this poke too. Yes, Toxapex can't do much about Steel types because of the poison immunity but who the hell cares when he can just scald your Mega Metagross/Lucario/Excadrill and achieve the same thing that most bulky water types do better than they do just as an aside.

Toxapex is broken. You shouldn't list pokemon you also want banned as justified counters to not banning other pokemon. Makes no sense.

I really REALLY don't see Merciless being better than Regenerator... like... at all

First, you have to make sure that the opponent is always poisoned, and, even with guaranteed critical hits, 63 base attack is not good enough. This ability is like a bad Huge Power. It is also really slow for an offensive mon, and without Regen, is going to be weakened quite easily

There is no reasoning to use Merciless over Regenerator in a defensive mon.

Also, stockpile is bad

 

[Gerard]

Why no one talks about merciless toxapex, I have no idea. The un-invested damage from venoshock merciless is crazy, and when people start running that instead of regenerator, the sets are going to be too diverse to not warrant packing Toxapex up and sending it to Ubers heaven. Stockpile is mad strong on this poke too. Yes, Toxapex can't do much about Steel types because of the poison immunity but who the hell cares when he can just scald your Mega Metagross/Lucario/Excadrill and achieve the same thing that most bulky water types do better than they do just as an aside.

Toxapex is broken. You shouldn't list pokemon you also want banned as justified counters to not banning other pokemon. Makes no sense.

The only reason Toxapex is even close to being thought as broken is because all of it's most amazing checks are unviable in the current metagame or barely scrapping by. The Latis, MegaZam, Starmie, Mew, etc... are all made bad because of the combination of Aegislash, Pheromosa and Genesect, especially the first, once those threats leave the tier then they'll have a lot more breathing room to beat Toxapex among other pokémon.

 

[Jojobobo]

Thanks to the OU Council for making a thread such like this, I think that in the past some mods have been a little condescending about people mentioning a potential ban in general so it is nice to have an open place to discuss it. After all, I think most of us are after a balanced and fun meta - so even if someone's ban argument is entirely stupid I think they're usually good intentioned.

For the task at hand, I really think Kartana does really need a look into. It's adequate physical defence, decent speed tier and sheer amount of horrendous offence makes a LO Swords Dance sets absurdly good at wall-breaking. If we consider premier physical walls Skarmory, who is still more defensively bulky than the likes of Celesteela, and Toxapex then even at the +2 it still gets an easy 2HKO on Skarmory without rocks and most of the time can get the OHKO on Toxapex with rocks using neutral moves (though granted, Leaf Blade is at least a STAB):

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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 231-273 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It also has Night Slash to comfortably deal with Aegislash, and can take an 252+ Atk Aegislash Shadow Sneak in its stride, thereby eliminating yet another wall - so long as you're not suckered by too many King's Shields. Defensive Lando-T is taken care of by +1 LO Jolly pretty easily using Leaf Blade with just a little bit of residual damage, and if you're running Adamant then it's 62.5% an OHKO with SR in place. This is all assuming that a +2 boost is all you have, with Beast Boost easily letting you achieve higher and higher after the first KO.

Putting a pin in an SD LO set, Scarf is also horrendous in its own way. Adamant Scarf is enough to race right past Pheromosa and Mega Alakazam, and speed ties with Scarfed or +1 Jolly 95s - which isn't bad by any means. Once it's revenge killed just a single thing, which is easy to do against any weakened resistant pokemon, it's STABs become ridiculous - causing extremely heavy damage even against resists at the +1, making late game cleans a synch. One I'll showcase, because it actually surprised me when it happened, was a +1 Leaf Blade against Latios:

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+1 252+ Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 186-219 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While that's not an OHKO with the resisted STAB, it's still an extremely meaty hit and against anything without defensive investment that you hit neutrally you'll be ripping right through at the +1. Beyond this, it's not incredibly weak to priority either; Mach Punch doesn't have incredibly good distribution and neither really does Vacuum Wave, and none of the rest of the strong priority can OHKO - even with rocks (see the next lot of calcs). Once it's KOed the priority user, because it outspeeds the entire unboosted meta, little can stand in its way - bearing in mind priority spam will probably fall out of fashion to an extent as it's stopped dead by Psychic Terrain. The calcs:

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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 186-220 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Karana: 126-149 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

To summarise:

Why it's a monster

• A superb wall-breaker with LO, with +2 Atk LO Jolly 2HKOing and +2 Atk LO Adamant having a great chance after rocks to OHKO a lot of the premier walls on the tier with neutral, not SE, attacks. It has defensive typing and adequate Defence to be able to boost with SD, and once it hits a +3 boost with its first KO there isn't anything standing in its way.
• A superb revenge-killer and cleaner with Scarf, outspeeding the entire unboosted meta with a speed neutral nature and rocking one of the highest attack stats in any gen. Once the first KO is done, like Moxie Outrage Scarf Salamence from many gens ago, it becomes incredibly difficult to stop - with a resisted physical STAB doing >60% on uninvested 80/80 bulk. It also isn't inherently weak to priority, neutralising attempts to circumvent its speed and KO it through those means.
• Access to both of these equally viable sets depending on the role you require of it, making it not incredibly easy to prepare for. For example, many things can revenge kill a 109 Speed wall-breaker - but many of those same things will underspeed the Scarf set and be OHKOed or easily KOed when weakened. Likewise, physical walls can withstand the Scarf set, but many struggle against the wall-breaker.

What I'm trying to say is, it gives me nightmares. Not that I don't enjoy using it, it's great to annihilate the opponent and cackle with childish glee. It's just hard to say it isn't a little broken. To me it's even worse than Pheromosa (despite her grossly damaging U-turn spam) as at least she can be outsped with a Jolly 252 Speed Scarfed base 85 and has no real business running a Scarf herself, but with Kartana you never really know what you're getting yourself into.

 

[pubby]

I think it's hypocritical to be for the banning of Pheromosa but against the banning of Genesect.

• Genesect's download-boosted scarf u-turn hits both harder and faster than Pheromosa's life orb u-turn.
  
• Genesect has twice the bulk of Pheromosa and a much better defensive typing
• Genesect has a far better moveset with tons of coverage options and potential (shift gear, anyone?)

Thunderbolt is legit good coverage this gen and I don't know why people are ignoring it. Run t-bolt! It will get you more kills than whatever other coverage you were running.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

merciless toxapex is a subpar set completely underpowered in most cases. Why would someone even think of discarding regenerator? Anyway as someone suggested, a lot of his counters are blocked because of aegi, and he's not that broken, you see him a lot since it's basically the other pokemon (exept aegi) that counters pheromosa, so...

I think it's hypocritical to be for the banning of Pheromosa but against the banning of Genesect.

• Genesect's download-boosted scarf u-turn hits both harder and faster than Pheromosa's life orb u-turn.
  
• Genesect has twice the bulk of Pheromosa and a much better defensive typing
• Genesect has a far better moveset with tons of coverage options and potential (shift gear, anyone?)

Thunderbolt is legit good coverage this gen and I don't know why people are ignoring it. Run t-bolt! It will get you more kills than whatever other coverage you were running.

1)scarf genesect blocks you on one single move, whereas pheromosa can freely choose with 151 base speed (which is fucking insane).
2)Agree but as a sweeper the bulk in a low-priority metagame doesn't need that much bulk;
3) kinda agree but that doesn't mean that pheromosa hasn't a nearly-perfect coverage. I mean, exept for t-bolt she can deal massive damage to the whole tier. Not only that, but also you can do massive damage to every pokemon that is not toxapex and aegi, with either u-turn (slowbro) or hjk (about everything else).

I see your point and i want genesect banned too, but these two pokemon are on two different levels of power.

 

[astroshagger]

Just saying I also appreciate the concept of this thread. very nice to get insights and transparent justification for some of the decisions on banning and suspecting. a much needed departure from what seemed like puppeted decisions coming from a "faceless" council with most decisions being made behind the scenes in previous gens.

I would still like to see the general pop have a greater or at least more transparent influence on what even gets suspected to begin with. what worries me is that certain members here who carry quite a bit of clout and seniority have the ability to disproportionately influence suspect test choices and other bans.

I also think this type of thread should stick around as people need a place to discuss this without it feeling "taboo"

 

[thelandlordsmm]

I feel like the people clamoring about banning Toxapex are people who are jumping into the SM meta without ever playing competitive Pokemon before. Sure, it's fat, but as many others have said, Haze/Toxic/Recover/Scald w/Regenerator is pretty much its ONLY set. Stockpile is bad because if you're running Haze alongside it then you're basically a meme. If you're NOT running Haze then you are inviting the opponent to set up and sweep. Toxic Spikes are OK and can be good on hazard stacking teams I suppose, but Toxic is probably always better. Baneful Bunker is cute, but not that useful outside of scouting.

Also, we are seriously entertaining the idea that Merciless Venoshock gives Toxapex some kind of "moveset diversity?" Merciless will never activate against any Poison or Steel-types and we are still talking about something with 53 base sp. attack.

 

[Josh]

A band set on Hoopa is probably better than or at least equal to specs this gen just because gunk shot is more important than ever. Hyperspace Fury bopping aegi through KS (dark pulse still let's it scout) is also huge rn though I don't realistically expect aegi to stay so it doesn't matter.

Anyways, like others have said, Hoopa is definitely way lower priority than the rest of these mons and shouldn't be considered this early. I voted no ban last gen and I do understand the pro ban side, in hindsight it was probably the right choice, but like others have said it's just not as good this gen. It's too early to see if the meta develops in a way that breaks Hoopa so I'm not saying it should never get suspected but definitely not now.

General other thoughts: baby deoxys and aegi need to go but idt anything else is worth quick banning, I'd rather suspect the others after the meta settles if they're still issues.

 

[Jukain]

I want to put my opinion on the suspects out there, but I want to talk about this first because it's very important: I feel very uneasy about quickbanning any of the Pokemon here. It's not because they aren't broken or because I don't trust the council to make good decisions. To frame my point, I'd like to refer to the Pokemon we have quickbanned in the past. They are Blaziken/Mega Blaziken and Mega Kangaskhan from XY, Mega Salamence from ORAS, and Power Construct (Zygarde-Complete) from SM. Anyone who played the OU tier with these Pokemon can attest to the fact that they were clearly in another realm, particularly in the cases of Zygarde-C and Mega Mence but true in the other cases as well. These Pokemon were very blatantly broken, creating win situations on their own while being overwhelming in such a way that is nearly impossible to deal with. Although some of these Pokemon may perhaps be banworthy, the level we're talking about is clearly different. The main Pokemon I want to discuss is Aegislash because it's clearly the top candidate being mentioned. I'd talk about Pheromosa too, but there's already pretty much an assurance that Pheromosa won't be quickbanned directly from TDK (while Aegislash is in the tier, that is). Bear in mind that I'm trying to be as objective as possible when describing flaws, so don't take what I'm saying the wrong way - I want to ban Aegi too, but I think it should be done the right way.

is slow and definitely beatable. Offense can run certain Pokemon that can OHKO it or severely cripple it regardless, and plenty of Pokemon have coverage options for it whether they would run them normally or not. Furthermore, it has been established that there is not exactly a shortage of defensive checks for balance and stall teams to use, especially with the addition of Celesteela. The primary argument for banning Aegislash is and always has been that it restricts the metagame, not whether it is balanced; although there are side arguments for that, they are much less strong. Although some may argue that these impacts are obvious, ultimately metagame impact is a subjective process that comes down to the opinions of individuals and changes as the metagame progresses. I want to emphasize this last point because I feel that at the five-day mark of this metagame, it just feels inappropriate to judge what the metagame is going to look like when even the 'good teams' of the metagame lose to Pokemon that should be good, and there are plenty of good Pokemon that aren't as common as they should be due to new Pokemon fever. You may be able to theorize that these shifts may make no difference with regard to Aegislash, but I think we'd be seriously remiss if Aegislash wasn't even given a suspect period.

This is all particularly in lieu of the intense vitriol surrounding the Pokemon, with many people assuming it will leave the tier at any moment now. It'd probably still get banned if we have a suspect test on it soon (which I support), but I think that the window that a suspect test would give for the metagame to calm down slightly and intense emotions to relieve themselves a bit cannot be construed as anything other than healthy to a reasonable banning process. All in all, I think there are reasonable arguments to let Aegislash sit through a suspect test, even despite that, yes, we've done it twice before.

Perhaps it is the precedent we want to set, but I don't like it. The reason we have a suspect process is to subjectively deal with and decide the fate of anything that is deemed potentially broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive. Uncompetitive tends to be its own category and the first two can go hand-in-hand, but not necessarily. All of the Pokemon that have been quickbanned in the past check off the first two boxes resoundingly. Aegislash debatably (clearly, as this thread would illustrate) checks off the box of unhealthy, which is the reason people want to ban it; even if it is truly broken, it's not by much. For the Pokemon quickbanned in the past, I don't even have to ask myself these questions let alone debate to find an answer. To be honest, quickbanning Aegislash seems more like the option people want because they want to get rid of Aegislash as soon as possible. I truly understand the sentiment, being one of the main proponents for banning this Pokemon in XY and someone who actively dislikes its presence in the tier now. However, I'd rather deal with Aegislash for another couple weeks than set a dangerous precedent in terms of the criteria for a quickban. In the case of a Pokemon as controversial as Aegislash, the community should make the decision.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

I feel like the people clamoring about banning Toxapex are people who are jumping into the SM meta without ever playing competitive Pokemon before. Sure, it's fat, but as many others have said, Haze/Toxic/Recover/Scald w/Regenerator is pretty much its ONLY set. Stockpile is bad because if you're running Haze alongside it then you're basically a meme. If you're NOT running Haze then you are inviting the opponent to set up and sweep. Toxic Spikes are OK and can be good on hazard stacking teams I suppose, but Toxic is probably always better. Baneful Bunker is cute, but not that useful outside of scouting.

Also, we are seriously entertaining the idea that Merciless Venoshock gives Toxapex some kind of "moveset diversity?" Merciless will never activate against any Poison or Steel-types and we are still talking about something with 53 base sp. attack.

Adding on to your points of why Toxapex should not be banned. The presence of Greninja, Genesect, Aegislash, Pheromosa, Hoopa-U threaten the existence of Psychic types in OU. When Tapu Lele was teased, a lot of people were like "oh this mon is so OP" and now she's pretty meh because it's so hard to include her on a team without checks to those mons. These mons (specifically Aegislash, Pheromosa and Genesect) pushed out the powerful Psychics (Mega-Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Starmie, Lati twins, Mega-Gardevoir, etc.) from the meta. With these Psychic-types gone obviously Toxapex is going to wreck havoc due to the sheer number of its checks being hard to justify on a team due to the presence of these mons.

Toxapex is also very popular because it is a fantastic check to the top tier threats currently, so obviously it's going to see a lot of play time. I'm sure if Aegislash and Pheromosa are removed from the tier, Toxapex will still be strong, but it won't be as common since Psychic types can come out of hiding and the mons it can successfully check would be removed.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

We really having this "Aegi isn't unbeatable"/"Let's just ban KS" conversation again?

On the first point, that was never the reason it was banned. No Pokemon is unbeatable, every Pokemon is "beatable". The problem lies in when team building becomes Aegi + Aegi killer + Pokemon that sweeps once Aegi is gone + 3 fillers. That is what we call overcentralization folks. Aegi is the epitome of overcentralization, simple as that, whether you like it or not. Nothing was introduced to put Aegi in its place, why the hell would/should it stay? Because muh Pheromosa? Then maybe both should get the boot eh, rocket science I know. We want to talk about metagame diversity, Aegislash is the absolute opposite of that, it is already VERY apparent if you don't have your "protect aegi" goggles on.

The KS ban nom has been thrown out time and time again, and it won't be happening. KS on its own is not broken, simple. Just like Protean isn't broken on its own and Speed boost on its own. It is the combination of the Mon + ability/move, so, the mon needs to go. Otherwise why not just ban Mega Salamence + Dragon Dance? Or mLuke + Set up moves? I'm sure you get the point. Complex bans should only be done when there is no other choice, otherwise you end up doing some stupid shit like having to look at BP 5 times before realizing you should just ban the god damn move. Or banning combos so that they can be "balanced" for OU. It's just avoiding the core of the problem.

 

[ryan]

people talked a bit on page one about arena trap. i don't think arena trap is worth looking into, but dugtrio is. a lot of arguments surfaced for testing dugtrio/arena trap last gen, and i think it only gets more valid with the additional attack stat and even more things to trap with it. what makes it even more annoying is that weather is back in the picture as a serious archetype that can win beyond matchup really often thanks to pelipper. i don't think pokemon is a game where matchup will ever be able to be taken out of the picture again, but dugtrio really enhances the problem for balance.

i think everything in the op except for maybe landorus/hoopa should take precedence over a dugtrio suspect, but it is something i'd like to see this gen.

 

[Andy Snype]

I am quite happy that Power Construct was quickbanned (far too bulky), in which I've lost only 2 games, both of my own misplays. Way too many games that I won by literally clicking Substitute and Coiling to +6. (ran a max hp / near max sdef spread that someone else gave me, couldn't tell you what it lived, but damn was it bulky)

I think that the trappers really should be on everyone's eyes (Duggy and Goth, and unlikely Wobb, depending on what happens with these Darks and Bugs), if you want to look at specific mons. The beginning of each generation allows for far more threats (usually offensive) and the Trapping abilities generally allow for entire playstyles to be skillleslly answered. Goth used to dismantle certain stall teams on its own and Duggy can trap a lot of team's answers to its teammates, of which there can be a lot of mons that people would argue to be broken. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Koko/Dug/Goth trio work in future SuMo metas and have that core work well to the already-existing calls to suspect Tapu Kencherino. I'd really like to see this addressed within the next few suspects.

 

[baddjordan]

I do not think Aegislash should be banned, or at least not for now. I always considered Aegislash somewhat of a mon that provides an offensive check to Pokemon that otherwise completely dominate out of playstyles while being fairly "easy to use" and forcing a team to run a specific Pokemon just so they don't get destroyed by specific Pokemon typically being Mega Medicham, Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor, and Mega Charizard X. Just to have an answer to them, building a typical bulky offensive team was rather difficult, and you had to force yourself to carry a specific mon on a bulky offense team being Clefable and most definitely Landorus-Therian. Aegislash seems to fix the amount of stress you need by a significant portion. Instead of having to put a Landorus-T and Clefable to check these mons rather shakily, you can run an Aegislash, which check all 3 effectively besides Mega Charizard-X, with M-Scizor being the toughest of the three. I can understand that Aegislash might be considered a big centralization, but I actually consider it a good thing. I don't consider diversification to be the crutch of competitive battling, and I much prefer this more controlled metagame which allows you to cover more threats in a series whose power creeps ever more per generation.

However, I would like to see if we can seek a middle ground and do something that is similar to how lower tiers banned Drought in previous generations, and that is to ban King's Shield.

What a ban on Kings Shield means:

Hide

- King's Shield significantly reduces the amount of reliable checks Aegislash has. Pokemon such as Charizard X, Assault Vest Tangrowth, and any choice band user with a super effective move should be able to reliably beat Aegislash now don't because of essentially a coin flip as to whether you'll land that move or you'll get that -2 Attack drop and will have to switch. This can be insanely demanding and I understand that having 2 dedicated Aegislash answers simply because of that bs is way too restrictive. However, Aegislash provides useful utility to the meta with it's typing which I think needs to be considered, Aegislash provides necessary checks to mons, including Tapu Lele, Mega Medicham (you were forced to run 252/252 bold clef on almost every team because the rest of its checks were insanely passive), M-Diancie, and others I'll remember when I play ORAS that forced your ass to run Lando-T so you would have a decent check to these teams. I would like to ban Kings Shield instead of Aegislash as a whole to meet a middleground.


- "But isn't this a complex ban?" No this is not, notice how I didn't say "Ban Kings Shield on Aegislash?" This is because that would be a complex ban because it allows a Pokemon only if it has to follow a specific rule other Pokemon don't. Here however, this is simply a blanket ban on Kings Shield much like we did a blanket ban on Shadow Tag because of Gothitelle. There is no complexity about it, if you have a Pokemon carry King's Shield (which is and should only be Aegislash) it will not be allowed.


1. The ban on Kings Shield will heavily nerf Aegislash's defensive capabilities thanks to the removal 50/50s. Aegislash now consistently loses to Pokemon like SD Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, etc. instead of it being a game of pure 50/50s. Aegislash also loses defensively to a bigger variety of Pokemon due to the lack of the defense drop and inability to switch forms. Pokemon such as the ones aforementioned, and others such as AV Tangrowth, Tyranitar, Mega Lopunny etc.. (again, I can't remember other extras but there are more)


2. Aegislash will still have an effect on the meta. Thanks to its great offensive STAB in the form of Shadow Ball and with its great defensive typing, it can check very relevant Pokemon in the tier, including Mega Medicham, Mega Diancie, Mega Heracross, as well as the things a typical steel would check, such as Latios. This comes at a cost, however. Aegislash, while being able to reliably check them, still have to fear potential coverage moves, and without King's Shield having to keep Aegislash involves a lot more skill, as after the first attack you will not be able to go back into defensive stance until it switches out, meaning that it will have access to its base 50 defenses, essentially meaning that after the first turn it doesn't have the bulk nor the speed to get more than a first hit off before it has to swap.

- Overall, I think banning Kings Shield on Aegislash would be a good medium. It is a solid check to a plethora of relevant Pokemon while having more opportunity to be punished for poor plays and much less coinflips. This does not break any precedent that Smogon has done in the past as this is no more of a complex ban than Shadow Tag and Drizzle for lower tiers in Gen 6.

Replays:

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For those who are curious, I challenged solid players using Aegislash without Kings Shield, I've had success and we both played rather solid. As you can see, thanks to the lack of being able to revert forms, I've had to play considerably safer and used Aegislash essentially as a glue to top tier mons.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214050
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-215974
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214088
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-214277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-478956969
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-481054106
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-215679

Banning Kings Shield is inconsistent with the ban of Aegislash in gen 6, where almost nothing has changed for Aegislash. I'd also argue that Shadow Ball is just as important as King's Shield for Aegi, thats another story though. The entire Pokemon has to go.

Aegi should be quick banned, it's far too good at everything. Puts about 15-20 Pokemon out of viability who would otherwise be OU or around the mark. I don't think anything should be tested until Aegi is banned, if we were doing tier lists then it would be in the Aegislash Tier.

Pheramosa's Stat distribution and movepool (U-Turn) is too much for OU. Regardless of its handful of counters, it gives you momentum or puts a dent in you. 151 Speed is the main problem, you're almost always in control of the game.

Hoopa- U is still broken, the CB set plows through everything. Hypyerspace/Zen/Ice Punch/Fire or Drain Punch. There is no answer for this Pokemon. It's especially good in the current meta against Aegislash.

Koko and Genesect (who has more chance of staying than it did over the past two gens) are next in line and you could also make a case for Lando, Greninja and Celestela. Aegislash is the real problem, it dictates the dynamic of the meta so while its around, its much harder to tell what needs to stay or go.

 

[Lapras!]

Honestly the pokemon on the list that concerns me most is Hoopa-U... This thing is honestly too good at what it does. It literally invalidates stall completely on its own. Sure, a tier needs stallbreakers to be healthy, but Hoopa-U is literally impossible for stall to beat. I mean the pokemon that should check it actually can't because Hoopa is too strong.

252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 164-192 (53.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 200-238 (50.8 - 60.5%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

It can actually beat all four of these pokemon just running one set. This pokemon definitely needs a suspect if not a quickban imo. It's just not fun or competitive to have one pokemon 6-0 an entire playstyle.

 

[QuickBH]

I actually explained why Kings Shield is completely different than any of those other stuff that you mentioned that quite frankly you're straw manning. Why not just ban Politoed instead of Drizzle in gen 6 lower tiers, or Shadow Tag when only Gothitelle back in gen 6 abused it? It's because we know meta relevance and if a Pokemon can provide extremely useful niches in a metagame like Politoed in PU than it's more beneficiary to keep the mon than to just ban it as a whole.I'm not answering past this if you can only pull up something I spent 3 paragraphs rebutting while you brought up the exact same stuff I stated with nothing new about it. It just annoyed me enough once to actually state it.

Also I think Aegislash as a whole should stay, I'm just giving a middle ground for people who think it's dumb, when honestly I view him as a really solid Pokemon and that the metagame centralizing around it is better for teambuilding and the competitive scene as a whole than "diversifying."

 

[Jukain]

Steven Snype shadow tag is banned

That said buffed Dugtrio is definitely high up on my list of things I'd like to see suspected/possibly banned in the somewhat near future (within a few suspect tests) as well. We'll see how things go, but I'd honestly rather get rid of Dugtrio before half this list. The reason is because Dugtrio is actively making many potential broken suspects in the metagame more difficult to deal with. It's probably at least partially due to lack of awareness, but Heatran is uncommon right now. This in a metagame where the most important thing Heatran has checked when it was legal in both of the past two generations is prevalent. To be less specific and more general, Dugtrio is exacerbating the issues balanced/defensive teams and even offense have in dealing with these threats and many other prevalent threats in the OU tier. With Dugtrio's buff, it has access to trapping more Pokemon than before and is generally less mediocre. The reason it was never banned in the past is that a mediocre Attack stat severely limited what it could do. With that barrier overcome, I think Dugtrio has to come to a point where many of the same competitiveness arguments and such attached to Shadow Tag can be applied to it at a practical level, not just a theoretical or philosophical level. The effect that it has on the tier is purely negative, making dealing with this chaotic metagame even more difficult. I've never been a fan of trapping, but I could accept Dugtrio because of its limited nature. At this point, it's already becoming nearly unbearable to deal with.

e: I should add an important point. Dugtrio can legitimately run sets other than Sash now. Specifically, it can run sets like Band, Scarf, Life Orb, and even Z-move...they are actually viable, not bad gimmicks. Even though you generally know what Dugtrio can do, there's a bit more mystery to it now than just the only set it could viably run.