Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

I would say some version of kyurem-B. Specs would be neato for luring in Mega mawile since your team looks so weak in preview to it, and it does get the OHKO with earthpower. You can also consider bulky weakness policy kyurem, who puts in work on lots of things, although you have to be smart with roost if they have seen it before.

I Guess rhypherior/ own mawile/ mega aggorn complete the synergy with the other two as well.
 

DEG

peace
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Troll Ram (Whimsicott) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Cotton Guard/Toxic/ HP Flying/Taunt
So how niche is this? I think we all know what this doed: kill the enemy in 8 turns while healing yourself, giving you enough HP that in 2 turns you can make a sub off anything with below-average or higher HP. The 4th move depends. Cotton Guard lets you win vs those with physical attacks that OHKO, HP Flying gives you something vs Breloom, Taunters, and Grass types. Toxic and Taunt both shut down recovery, but Toxic also allows anti-Grass types (except Venusaur and such), while Taunt can anti-stall.

So how stupid, horrible, trolly, and sadistic is this set?
This set only works on lower ladder, on upper ladder it becomes difficult to run it. Pretty sure that lvl 98 is to be slower than Perish Song Azumarill cause you could fix the amount of sub in the evs. I'd recommend encore for the last move if you want to use it.

True. And the fact that they don't think about it could lead them to their doom, but you're right. It's a gimmick. And it's countered by so many popular things that using it is very difficult. However against many things, it simply wins.

I use Greninja and Megamence, if i sack this what should I replace it with?
Your team seems weak to scarf Kyurem-Black so I'd recommend running Mega Mawile, it can check kyub and other pokemon that your team could lose to, Bulky Diancie... Also Greninja/MegaMence/MegaMawile have great synergy making it somewhat difficult to predict (Nothing is really hard ;])
 
Troll Ram (Whimsicott) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Cotton Guard/Toxic/ HP Flying/Taunt
So how niche is this? I think we all know what this doed: kill the enemy in 8 turns while healing yourself, giving you enough HP that in 2 turns you can make a sub off anything with below-average or higher HP. The 4th move depends. Cotton Guard lets you win vs those with physical attacks that OHKO, HP Flying gives you something vs Breloom, Taunters, and Grass types. Toxic and Taunt both shut down recovery, but Toxic also allows anti-Grass types (except Venusaur and such), while Taunt can anti-stall.

So how stupid, horrible, trolly, and sadistic is this set?
This set has been around for a long time, but it's popularity slipped a long time ago as well. This set is the ultimate stall breaker, but falls to poison types and many offensive pokemon. Because of how common its counters are in 1vs1, this set really isn't too bad to deal with.
 
So, thanks to a new Global Link promotion, Custap Berry is now released. Any ideas of potential applications for this in 1v1? It seems like it could be pretty useful. (Didn't someone use a Darmanitan-Zen set with it last generation?)
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
So, thanks to a new Global Link promotion, Custap Berry is now released. Any ideas of potential applications for this in 1v1? It seems like it could be pretty useful. (Didn't someone use a Darmanitan-Zen set with it last generation?)
I remember sturdies using it, such as sawk. Endure hitmonlee also comes to mind. The best move to use with the pokes I mentioned is of course reversal.
 
Crustle is another obvious one, finally being able to beat faster mons and scarfers. However, because custap berry is only 0.5X priority...well, that kind of keeps it from overpowering some other mons. Rhyperior falls into a similar vein, being able to use swords dance and endure, but unlike Crustle, it doesn't have sturdy, so it really doesnt have much of a niche (outside of beating mega mawile (idk if it even beats maw))

Then there are things like Endure+Sub+Flail diggersby, which can pretty much nuke most of the attacking mons in the meta:
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 384-453 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Or maybe you could now opt for Endure/Custap Hyper Beam Porygon-Z, which almost completely eclipses its Scarfed variant (at the cost of forcing more 50/50s)

Another thing that seems to be nice is the classic sturdy custap donphan. If they attempt to OHKO you, kill them with endeavor + ice shard; if not, just use EQ or head smash.

Overall custap berry seems to be a nice addition to the 1v1 tier, I don't know how this would affect the more unique pokemon in the tier, but there's definitely alot of potential to be capitalized on.
 

DEG

peace
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I don't usually complain about a specific set or a Pokemon in 1v1, but this is a serious matter. I would like to bring up discussion about the famous Perish Song.
Me and my friend Karl (Rumplestiltskin) were discussing about 1v1 when we felt in a Perish Song discussion we both think that it's over centralizing and scary in the 1v1 meta

1- What are the notable users of Perish song?

Although, Perish song isn't used by lot of Pokemon it's still deadly. The most 2 Pokemon that use it are Azumarill and Meloetta. Two decent bulky pokemon, while azumarill is a better user since it stops Charizard X, Charizard Y, Gyarados it mostly lose to slower Pokemon and thanks to it's ability Sap Sipper it can drain grass attacks. On the other hand we have Meloetta which special bulk helps it a lot and can on slower Pokemon thanks to it trick room.

Most common sets for both are:



Hell's Singer @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sap Sipper
Level: 99
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Encore/Substitute
- Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Play Rough




Meloetta @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Substitute/Rest/HyperVoice
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Trick Room


2- What's the matter with Perish Song?

Perish song limits certain Pokemon moves or a moveset, a user when seeing Azumarill will not send in his Charizard or his Gyarados wildly due to it's knowledge about it having perish song. Perish song Azumarill makes the user in-need of Hyper Offensive Pokemon such as salamence Or the help of slower pokemon such as aggron or No-Speed Mawile. The biggest problem is above meloetta's head, countering it with slower Pokemon won't work and moves such as sub will make you waste a turn to attack after a setup so here again HO Pokemon helps you. If it's beatable, it doesn't mean it's not good or Overpowered (Hint: Mega Salamence which was discussed earlier on but I still support it staying in the tier) Unlike Mega Salamence, Perish song find it's way between teams while Mega Salamence loses to common threats and scarf.

3- Any good check for Perish Song?

As I have stated above it limits the gameplay so I'll share with you sets which counters Perish Song make sure to add more if you have!



Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Giga Impact
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Substitute


Mega Salamence just annihilate Perish song users thanks to it's Aerilate and it's huge attack, it can't OHKO azumarill but that's why Dragon Dance is there. It all comes down to a predict, if salamence DD and Azumarill encore it's gg
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Same goes with Meloetta but Meloetta doesn't have Encore.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meloetta: 322-379 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*Note that Sitrus berry recovery isn't stated above.


Next up on the list we have Mega Mawile which eats both Pokemon alive.


Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
0 Speed evs
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Fang/Iron Head


Another notable monster which kills Perish song is Queen Mawile! It still suffer like Mega Mence but after a setup it has no fear.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meloetta: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Both Pokemon suffer as Mawile is Slower and secondly Deadly! Meloetta cannot setup trick room while azumarill dies first.

Last but not least we have Greninja scary special warrior which can do lot of damage if both aren't Spdf invested.



Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Hydro Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


I'll let the calc speak
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 412-486 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
52+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Please note that these sets doesn't work 100% that's why it ''checks'' Perish Song and doesn't ''Counter''

Thanks for reading the post and share with us your opinion about Perish Song and if you have any good Pokemon that destroy Perish Song.
(Damn my hand hurts from typing all that)

Edit: I'd suggest to Discuss a ban for Perish song
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
My thoughts about perish song in 1v1 first of all is that perish song was designed and balanced around the fact that a pokemon can switch as counterplay, and there is no switching in 1v1.

Secondly, strategies like toxic stall exist, were accepted, viable, and reasonably beatable. Perish song stall is like a slap to the face to those strategies. Why wait 5+ turns for toxic to kill a poke (not considering healing or curing the toxic) when you can end the battle in 3 turns no matter what?
And using protect, it leaves the perish song user open to take 2 hits total, or sometimes open to take 1 hit total, as seen here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-180893242.
How many pokes and sets can take out a bulky stall poke with 2 hits, and is that supposed to be expected of you?
In my opinion, no, because that limits the choices of pokes and strategies you can use in the meta to a small pool of choices.

Now you could tell a 1v1 player to use taunt, but that already limits the player to a set of few good choices. And perish song really needs to be considered when making a 1v1 poke or team, because it's not fun at all to lose to it. Now suppose you made a poke with taunt, as a counter to perish song, how viable is it against the opponents other 2 pokes? Or against an opponent not using perish song?
Now suppose you have made a good team with a taunt user and you picked the taunt user against the perish song user, but wait, the perish song user has Magic Coat (meloetta), and now you are back to square one.
This strategy (magic coat meloetta) is of course also counterable, you could use an imprison + trick room set, but that is also very useless against other pokes. This strat can also backfire, as seen here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-212410113.

Now suppose you're using a poke with taunt and your opponent is azumarill with protect, perish song, and dive. If you don't have an attack or some sort of damage to KO the azumarill before your taunt runs out of pp, you still lose. Because since protect has higher priority than taunt, you use 2 taunts for each time the taunt runs out, and protect has 16 pp, 16 x 2 = 32 , which is taunts pp. That means, even if you use taunt, you need something that deals enough damage even against the invulnerable turn of dive + leftovers/sitrus berry recovery. You could of course risk not taunting to waste protects pp, but that is a huge risk that could result in you instantly losing the battle. Example replay here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-235003904.
This further limits your choices for a viable taunt user.

Just because something is counterable doesn't mean it's healthy to keep in a meta.

My third point is something I mentioned earlier, it's just not fun. It's not fun to go into a battle that ends in 3 turns and you lose because you're faster, and it doesn't feel fair at all.
 
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While I understand that Perish Song may be a problem and is worth discussing, I would like to answer to two points you mentioned :

My thoughts about perish song in 1v1 first of all is that perish song was designed and balanced around the fact that a pokemon can switch as counterplay, and there is no switching in 1v1.
Pokémon as a whole wasn't designed for 1v1, and, for instance, recharge moves and moves that drop a stat are a lot more powerful in 1v1. The same goes for almost every set in 1v1 : in any other metagame, if your opponent sends out a counter to your mon, you just switch out. Here, if Venusaur puts you to sleep and uses Leech Seed, it's almost checkmate.

My third point is something I mentioned earlier, it's just not fun. It's not fun to go into a battle that ends in 3 turns and you lose because you're faster, and it doesn't feel fair at all.
Then what about Hyper Beam Gard and Giga Impact Salamence ? More than half of 1v1 matches last less than three turns because everyone uses a cookie-cutter HO team like KyuremB/Charizard/Mawile. Actually, there's way more viable strategies you can use to counter Perish Song (slapping Taunt on anything basically, or just using anything with powerful SE coverage) than against something that both outspeeds and OHKOs you. Granted, Perish Song might not be the funniest thing to face (to my mind, it's still better than generic Mawile or Kyube), but if you dislike losing a match in less than 5 turns just because you picked the wrong mon, then don't play 1v1.

One last thing : there are two more counters to Perish Song I can think of :
- Porygon-Z : 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And it destroys Meloetta with Trick + Choice Scarf or just straight KOs it with Spec Hyper Beam (it outspeeds on turn 1 even without Scarf, so no Sub or whatever).
- Gardevoir : 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Azumarill: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (and that's 252 HP/252 SpD Azu, which noone uses).
Against Meloetta, just use Taunt on turn 1 : if it has Magic Coat, you're back to square one but you know it doesn't have Sub : just Hyper Beam it until it dies. If it doesn't have Magic Coat, you win.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
While I understand that Perish Song may be a problem and is worth discussing, I would like to answer to two points you mentioned :

Pokémon as a whole wasn't designed for 1v1, and, for instance, recharge moves and moves that drop a stat are a lot more powerful in 1v1. The same goes for almost every set in 1v1 : in any other metagame, if your opponent sends out a counter to your mon, you just switch out. Here, if Venusaur puts you to sleep and uses Leech Seed, it's almost checkmate.

Then what about Hyper Beam Gard and Giga Impact Salamence ? More than half of 1v1 matches last less than three turns because everyone uses a cookie-cutter HO team like KyuremB/Charizard/Mawile. Actually, there's way more viable strategies you can use to counter Perish Song (slapping Taunt on anything basically, or just using anything with powerful SE coverage) than against something that both outspeeds and OHKOs you. Granted, Perish Song might not be the funniest thing to face (to my mind, it's still better than generic Mawile or Kyube), but if you dislike losing a match in less than 5 turns just because you picked the wrong mon, then don't play 1v1.

One last thing : there are two more counters to Perish Song I can think of :
- Porygon-Z : 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And it destroys Meloetta with Trick + Choice Scarf or just straight KOs it with Spec Hyper Beam (it outspeeds on turn 1 even without Scarf, so no Sub or whatever).
- Gardevoir : 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Azumarill: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (and that's 252 HP/252 SpD Azu, which noone uses).
Against Meloetta, just use Taunt on turn 1 : if it has Magic Coat, you're back to square one but you know it doesn't have Sub : just Hyper Beam it until it dies. If it doesn't have Magic Coat, you win.
Just because 1v1 is different to 6v6 and this means everything changes, this doesn't stop perish song from being broken necessarily. Nobody's arguing with Venusaur winning if it puts you to sleep and leech seeds you, but then Venusaur is still easy to beat despite this. And sure, hyper beam variants are more powerful; this doesn't mean they're broken. Let's take the HO team you mentionned of Kyu-B/Zard/Mawile. Straight-up beaten by charm chansey. Of course, you can win if Maw iron head flinches, or zard runs some kind of sub set, or Kyu-B runs choice band (in which case your team's fairly weak to fast offensive threats, I'd definitely want to run scarf instead). Just because the team will generally win in one or two turns doesn't mean it can't be stalled. Heck, it's not uncommon to see pp-stall dusclops on the higher ladder, and it beats quite a number of things as well.
The difference here is that perish song forces you to run something you might not have wanted to run. When I was making a post about Mega Mence, I made sure to post a large number of defensive or bulky checks and counters, because even someone who's never seen a pokemon in their life would tell you that it dies to a scarf ice beam. You can beat perish song teams with offensive pokemon, sure, but even if you can accurately predict that your opponent's running perish song azu or melo rather than offensive azu or melo you're then forced to run an offensive poke to beat it, and even then unless you use one of a very small number of pokemon that generally aren't seen much higher-ladder, there's a chance you'll still lose.

Finally, your point of either hitting it with super effective moves or sticking taunt on something doesn't work 100%. For one thing, taunt can be extremely tricky to fit on your team. I generally find that any defensive pokemon I run has 4mss and quite often wouldn't be able to taunt in any case, while offensive pokemon almost always either want to run a choice item, have 4mss, can't learn taunt, or would prefer substitute in the vast majority of cases as this is useful against both offensive and defensive threats. Honestly, you only get three pokemon so you can't realistically expect to beat everything, and perish song requires very different counters while being reasonably uncommon.
Just looking at the stats, about 50% of all azumarill are perish song while about a third of meloetta run the move, while azumarill has about 5.5% raw usage and meloetta has 3.7%. Added together, this makes about a 2.5% chance of encountering one in each game, which is quite a bit less than one per day if you play 20 games a day. It should be noted that you'll also be seeing offensive forms of these pokemon more often than that, so even if you do run a trick room counter and predict when they'll choose that pokemon, you can still lose to (and indeed, are more likely to lose to) the offensive variant which has completely different counters.

tl;dr it may be unreasonable to expect to beat everything, but perish song is very different to other stratagies and only beatable in very specific, restricting ways. Moreover its usage is low enough that it often simply isn't worth bringing a counter, meaning you simply have to accept a loss to a number of players. It can be beaten by offensive teams though this often still requires a little luck, and it completely destroys stall. This reminds me a lot of baton pass in OU, and I'd say this is probably broken in a similar manner.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Here, if Venusaur puts you to sleep and uses Leech Seed, it's almost checkmate.

Then what about Hyper Beam Gard and Giga Impact Salamence ? More than half of 1v1 matches last less than three turns because everyone uses a cookie-cutter HO team like KyuremB/Charizard/Mawile.
Let me give you a different perspective, I'm a guy who uses almost none of the most used pokes in the meta, with my own unique sets. I use gimmicks, stall, and generally bulky sets in 1v1, and it has worked with success against most, if not all of the pokes used in the meta. One example is my pp stall dusclops mentioned by Articuno I .
Although, mega salamence does beat 95% of all my sets and pokes that I used with success up until its release, but i digress.
My point is that, no, the battle is not necessarily over in less than 3 turns if you consider my playstyle, and there are many ways to deal with the other pokes and strats compared to perish song.

Actually, there's way more viable strategies you can use to counter Perish Song (slapping Taunt on anything basically, or just using anything with powerful SE coverage) than against something that both outspeeds and OHKOs you.

One last thing : there are two more counters to Perish Song I can think of :
- Porygon-Z : 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And it destroys Meloetta with Trick + Choice Scarf or just straight KOs it with Spec Hyper Beam (it outspeeds on turn 1 even without Scarf, so no Sub or whatever).
- Gardevoir : 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Azumarill: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (and that's 252 HP/252 SpD Azu, which noone uses).
Against Meloetta, just use Taunt on turn 1 : if it has Magic Coat, you're back to square one but you know it doesn't have Sub : just Hyper Beam it until it dies. If it doesn't have Magic Coat, you win.
What you are saying here is basically "use taunt or extreme offense or lose". Both alternatives limit your choices of pokes and sets to a specific move or playstyle, that does not necessarily work, in what in my opinion should be a diverse metagame.

Pokémon as a whole wasn't designed for 1v1, and, for instance, recharge moves and moves that drop a stat are a lot more powerful in 1v1.

Granted, Perish Song might not be the funniest thing to face (to my mind, it's still better than generic Mawile or Kyube), but if you dislike losing a match in less than 5 turns just because you picked the wrong mon, then don't play 1v1.
What I'm saying is there should not be a right mon to pick against perish song. Aside from other reasons mentioned, making a team with a "right mon" in mind for perish song cripples you against most of the other mons used unless you use some sort of extreme offense, which again is not something that should be required in a metagame.

And unlike other negative effect on user-moves, perish song's negative effect is self-ko (something that was and is now somewhat not allowed in 1v1), unless you specifically switch, which is not something that's available in 1v1. And unlike other moves that are devastating to get hit by (such as hyper beam or toxic), there is no mitigating, delaying, removing or healing from it. There is only preventing, it doesn't matter if you're built bulky to withstand a strong move, or you have some way of healing or curing something such as toxic, no, once it's done, it's done, and the battle is reduced to either having the power to KO the perish song user with 2 hits or somehow having the pokemon that moves last in the 3rd turn after perish song was used.

Aside from preventing there's the possibility of using a poke with the ability soundproof. I've tried using most of the soundproof pokes because of perish song, and none of them stood a chance against the current 1v1 meta. Soundproof bastiodon might have some use, but it gets destroyed by the commonly used ground type, and again a metagame should not be reduced to requiring the use of a single poke in order to not lose to such a strat as perish song.
 
With perish song being commonly used on my 1v1 teams, I figured I should give my thoughts on the perish song discussion.

While all of this discussion has talked about Azumarill and Meloetta as perish song users, there is one certain perish songer that is much less well known that further limits team building.

I'm talking about Mega Altaria.

While azu and meloetta are known as the definitive perish songers, mega altaria manages to perform feats that neither azu or meloetta can provide with consistency: namely, an almost hard counter to the fire/water/grass core

Other things that make altaria a downright terrifying perish songer are that it has a fantastic defensive typing, reliable recovery, and a defense boosting move to boot.

Now, it's speed is its biggest obstacle, but there are a ton of pokemon that normally counter it that can be out slowed if they have not altered their speed, such as magnezone and heatran and lose.

-------------------------------------------
Although I use perish song regularly, I would be lying if I said that it didn't limit team building. It is already hard enough to come prepared for perish song while also being equally prepared for the rest of the meta, but the return of custap berries only makes it harder to prepare for perish songers with one more prominent threat making a return to 1vs1.
 
I'm here to offer my opinions (keeping this shorter)

What makes something broken in 1v1? To me, the definition of "broken" is that the thing in question holds back the potential of a very, very large group of pokemon, and is still very useful outside of destroying that group of pokemon.

So what's up with Perish Song? Perish Song obliterates the ENTIRE defensive playstyle. Literally, there is a total of 0 defensive pokemon that can defeat a simple magic coat/perish song/protect/trick room meloetta set. To me, this in itself should warrant a lot of attention. But there's more: It can also destroy offensive sets as well.

For instance, the two most common perish song users, Meloetta and Azumarill, are so bulky that many pokemon can't even 2HKO them after sitrus berry, so that's a free win as long as crits aren't factored. Okay, now let's say you find something strong enough that DOES 2HKO it (this is limited to around 20% of all sets, at most) but doesn't OHKO it. Remember in the back of your mind that there's a 25% chance that Meloetta will get a triple protect, allowing you to STILL lose even when you have something that should beat it. Those checks that Dream Eater Gengar mentioned? They still lose 25% of the time, completely RNG. Oh, and if you're looking for something viable that can OHKO both, good luck, have fun, maybe you'll come up with something that the 1v1 community hasn't yet discovered. Also good luck and have fun finding a viable soundproof mon that can actually be used outside of beating perish song.

To me, the fact that Perish Song obliterates defense, matches up well against offense, can hax its way to victory even when offense should beat it, and forces people to run extremely niche counters (such as soundproof bouffalant) speaks broken on so many levels. Ban
 
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Smeargle @ Quick Claw
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Spe, 4 SDef
Timid Nature
-Transform
-Imprison
-Spore
-Dark Void

This set can work very well if a) Quick Claw activates clutch, b) it can take a hit, and c) if it outspeeds something. Dark Void is on this set to put a grass-type to sleep; however, it is not the most viable set because of the amount of speed/power in the metagame. This thing works very well against CounterCoat users, Metal Burst Aggron, and other slow Pokemon. It can be the answer to FEAR Pokemon such as Aron as well if you choose not to use a multi-strike user. It is best to be grouped with power Pokemon such as Charizard and scarfed Porygon-Z that can use Hyper Beam/variants that are fast and can hit hard.[/USER]
 

Betathunder

alphalightning
I wholeheartedly agree with all the comments above stating the ban of perish song. Nothing is worse to me than going to ladder and facing someone 300 elo below you who uses perish song. Although sometimes inexperienced players don't use it correctly and you get lucky and win, mastering perish song isn't hard, and it is very easy to come up with ways to make it even more effective. For example, I am starting to see Lapras with perish song, endure, and protect while holding a custap berry. The opponent, after using perish song, uses protect followed by endure to ensure it doesn't get ko'd. Then the custap berry kicks in so dive can go first, thus making it almost impossible to defeat minus crits. In a meta with enough spammy sets, such as giga impact mence, or blast burn zard y, perish song just adds to mess. Perish song, however, unlike the previous mentioned sets, is extremely difficult to check and counter. Therefore, I believe it should be banned.
 
I'm not so much for a ban on Perish Song basically because of how predictable it is. There are a limited number of users.

For all I care you can have a Drapion with Taunt as a dedicated Counter to the strategy.

As for the argument that you auto-lose to Perish Song if your matchup is bad, well you also auto-lose several things to Kyurem-B as well. That does not mean it's unbeatable. The team preview is basically just to make this less luck based.

Perish Song is good to the point of being centralizing, but can be easily played around. Something like a Trick Room Mega Gardevoir can help turn tables and still have offensive utility in Hyper Beam.
 
I'm not so much for a ban on Perish Song basically because of how predictable it is. There are a limited number of users.

For all I care you can have a Drapion with Taunt as a dedicated Counter to the strategy.

As for the argument that you auto-lose to Perish Song if your matchup is bad, well you also auto-lose several things to Kyurem-B as well. That does not mean it's unbeatable. The team preview is basically just to make this less luck based.

Perish Song is good to the point of being centralizing, but can be easily played around. Something like a Trick Room Mega Gardevoir can help turn tables and still have offensive utility in Hyper Beam.
Although I can see where you're coming from, I can't say I agree with this. Sure, perish song is predictable, but one of the main things is that it forces an incredible number of 50/50s (possibly around 3 50/50s per match, and if the perish song user wins one, then gg, on the other hand you have to win 2 or 3 50/50s in order to win). Swagger was banned for similar reasons (swagger had the chance of missing, giving you the free win, or you could break out of confusion, but it was still incredibly luck based. The difference here is that you lose in 4 turns no matter what).

Taunt beats perish song? Okay, maybe it does beat most users. But what about one of the most common users, magic coat meloetta? It bounces back the taunt, and proceeds to perish song. Maybe you predict that and go for an attack, so then you'd win. But then again, what if the meloetta just directly uses perish song anyways? You still basically lose/win on a 50/50, not even factoring in the possibility of a triple protect.

Trick room works? Sure, it works the first time, but next time around, your opponent will be expecting it. And keep in mind that trick room has a weird property that lets it cancel itself out if used twice. And since all perish song meloettas run trick room, do you use trick room this time or not? That's another 50/50 win that is complete luck.

And then there's the thing about matchup. You mentioned how kyube autowins against some things and auto loses against other things. And that's perfectly fine. What's not okay is when you have something that should beat perish song, but then loses because the RNG gods say so. SD Mawile? 25% chance of losing. SD Rhyperior? 25% chance of losing. Taunt Mega Gardevoir? 12.5% chance of losing (against magic coat meloetta). But as for Scarf Kyurem-B, Mega Mawile will always win (assuming no play rough hax, but really, that's not the Kyube user's fault, and besides it can just run iron head anyways).
 
Although I can see where you're coming from, I can't say I agree with this. Sure, perish song is predictable, but one of the main things is that it forces an incredible number of 50/50s (possibly around 3 50/50s per match, and if the perish song user wins one, then gg, on the other hand you have to win 2 or 3 50/50s in order to win). Swagger was banned for similar reasons (swagger had the chance of missing, giving you the free win, or you could break out of confusion, but it was still incredibly luck based. The difference here is that you lose in 4 turns no matter what).

Taunt beats perish song? Okay, maybe it does beat most users. But what about one of the most common users, magic coat meloetta? It bounces back the taunt, and proceeds to perish song. Maybe you predict that and go for an attack, so then you'd win. But then again, what if the meloetta just directly uses perish song anyways? You still basically lose/win on a 50/50, not even factoring in the possibility of a triple protect.

Trick room works? Sure, it works the first time, but next time around, your opponent will be expecting it. And keep in mind that trick room has a weird property that lets it cancel itself out if used twice. And since all perish song meloettas run trick room, do you use trick room this time or not? That's another 50/50 win that is complete luck.

And then there's the thing about matchup. You mentioned how kyube autowins against some things and auto loses against other things. And that's perfectly fine. What's not okay is when you have something that should beat perish song, but then loses because the RNG gods say so. SD Mawile? 25% chance of losing. SD Rhyperior? 25% chance of losing. Taunt Mega Gardevoir? 12.5% chance of losing (against magic coat meloetta). But as for Scarf Kyurem-B, Mega Mawile will always win (assuming no play rough hax, but really, that's not the Kyube user's fault, and besides it can just run iron head anyways).
I'm very sure 252 Atk Adamant Drapion 2HKOes Meloetta, Azumarill and the rare Altaria. Taunt / KOff / Poison Jab / filler.

And I'm not up for discussing Double Protect, since it's uncompetitive in its own regard.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm very sure 252 Atk Adamant Drapion 2HKOes Meloetta, Azumarill and the rare Altaria. Taunt / KOff / Poison Jab / filler.

And I'm not up for discussing Double Protect, since it's uncompetitive in its own regard.
Double protect may be uncompetitive, but that doesn't mean people don't use it. It means there's a 1/8 chance of losing even if you 2HKO, meaning all but the strongest of counters still have a chance of failing.

In fact, the fact it's uncompetitive only means perish song needs a ban more, as it means people are using uncompetitive stratagies to win.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Ok this is my ace set for when I got to 1714 under the alt we are raimon high

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 236 HP / 60 Atk / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature

- Metal Burst
- Sucker Punch
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp/taunt

Everybody expects a stally calm mind will-o-wisp set. I'm on phone so i can't post calc but I will update it, it lives a standard mega diancie moonblast and can kill with metal burst. 60 attack so after metal bursting a kyurem black which has insane HP(125 base) It can kill with sucker punch 100 Percent of the time. Sassy so effing perish song can't beat u, that's also why taunt is option over willo so that melloetta loses all the time to Sableye.
 
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Ok this is my ace set for when I got to 1714 under the alt we are raimon high

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 236 HP / 60 Atk / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature

- Metal Burst
- Sucker Punch
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp/taunt

Everybody expects a stally calm mind will-o-wisp set. I'm on phone so i can't post calc but I will update it, it lives a standard mega diancie moonblast and can kill with metal burst. 60 attack so after metal bursting a kyurem black which has insane HP(125 base) It can kill with sucker punch 100 Percent of the time. Sassy so effing perish song can't beat u, that's also why taunt is option over willo so that melloetta loses all the time to Sableye.
Aggron does this role better. It has a higher HP stat, has Sturdy so it will survive a hit, can run leftovers to deal with pokemon doing minor damage to break sturdy, and hits harder with strong moves like Earthquake and Stone Edge.
 

Knuckstrike

Hi I'm FIREEEE
Aggron does this role better. It has a higher HP stat, has Sturdy so it will survive a hit, can run leftovers to deal with pokemon doing minor damage to break sturdy, and hits harder with strong moves like Earthquake and Stone Edge.
The problem with aggron is that people facing it will expect a metal burst aggron and go for will-o/taunt or something similar. When the opponent is facing a sableye they won't go for any status moves but will try and attack it as it's the only way to deal with it.
 
The problem with aggron is that people facing it will expect a metal burst aggron and go for will-o/taunt or something similar. When the opponent is facing a sableye they won't go for any status moves but will try and attack it as it's the only way to deal with it.
From what I've seen, people won't expect it to be a metal burst aggron, at least not until you beat them with it a few times. Also, with Sableye, you can just pound it with a hard enough move and OHKO it, while you need Mold Breaker or Teravolt with a good enough move to OHKO Aggron, a feat that is very rare even for Aggron that have minimized defenses.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
From what I've seen, people won't expect it to be a metal burst aggron, at least not until you beat them with it a few times. Also, with Sableye, you can just pound it with a hard enough move and OHKO it, while you need Mold Breaker or Teravolt with a good enough move to OHKO Aggron, a feat that is very rare even for Aggron that have minimized defenses.

Lol this has better defenses then aggron and priority to finish stuff off, an it can't be stalled cause of magic bounce
 

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