Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

Star Sky said:
So, do you think there are the few people - it looks like about 10 as of now, and I doubt the number will go anywhere above 20 after two weeks - who have the better mentality to get through the invisible wall of 1600 are enough to decide whether the strategy should be banned or not? I agree with you that people who have made it through the trouble understands the problem better. For example, people in college would be much better at understanding how difficult an arithmetic problem is then a first grader incapable of solving the problem. But say that we are trying to decide whether the specific problem should be a part of the kid's homework. Do you think it's right for the college kid to decide on his own, without considering the opinion of the first grader and what he has to say about how difficult the problem is for him?
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Do you think a first grader should get to pick the problems on his or her homework assignments?

Setting your analogy aside, 1600 is difficult to attain, but as Articuno I said, it's ridiculous to assume that everyone who attains 1600 will want to not ban Perish Song just because they know how to beat it (?).

Some players already voted ban, for instance, and I'm sure they have beaten Perish Song users in the past...

If you want your opinion to be considered, I suggest you either put aside your complaints and obtain reqs for this suspect test or make a more convincing argument in this thread than

If we do ban perish song, the reason would be that it is too difficult to get through the strategy. People who already did get through might have trouble understanding this.
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or, in other words, "We might ban Perish Song because it is too difficult to beat, even though people who voted know how to beat it" which doesn't really mean anything.

edit: changed this because i misunderstood some things
 
As someone who as actually played 1v1 I want to say that those who are new should understand that 1v1 is NOT a competitive metagame. There is no switching in 1v1 which means that you are bringing only ONE pokemon against MILLIONS of different possible combinations of different pokemon, different movesets, different stats, different levels, different abilities, different items, different genders. It is impossible to metagame 1v1 because all the top ranked players are swapping between dozens of different teams between every battle. Every 1v1 battle is boils down to a mindgame. The spirit of 1v1 is sheer unpredictability of every battle.

There is NO strat in 1v1 that is better than another. There is NO strat in 1v1 that dominates another because each strat has it's advantages and disadvantages, and all ALL of them CAN be beaten. The metagame corrects itself BY THE MINUTE. If most of the field is using perish song or any other strat, you make a team that counters it and now you will have a favorable matchup against the field. Then those people will STOP using perish song because it's being countered and the metagame will have corrected itself. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for a strat to be over-centralizing.

I hope that whoever wanted this test to happen goes and make a triple perish song team. I will be waiting with curse aggron, taunt whimsicott, and specs exploud. Please do not bring your butthurt into 1v1- this is the metagame people play when they want a change of pace from the regular metas. Do not come into 1v1 expecting to win, come into it expecting to flip some coins. If perish song is banned it will set a terrifying precedent that anytime a strat is doing well it should be banned instead of countered.
 
Hugh Wottmeight said:
As someone who as actually played 1v1 I want to say that those who are new should understand that 1v1 is NOT a competitive metagame. There is no switching in 1v1 which means that you are bringing only ONE pokemon against MILLIONS of different possible combinations of different pokemon, different movesets, different stats, different levels, different abilities, different items, different genders. It is impossible to metagame 1v1 because all the top ranked players are swapping between dozens of different teams between every battle. Every 1v1 battle is boils down to a mindgame. The spirit of 1v1 is sheer unpredictability of every battle.

There is NO strat in 1v1 that is better than another. There is NO strat in 1v1 that dominates another because each strat has it's advantages and disadvantages, and all ALL of them CAN be beaten. The metagame corrects itself BY THE MINUTE. If most of the field is using perish song or any other strat, you make a team that counters it and now you will have a favorable matchup against the field. Then those people will STOP using perish song because it's being countered and the metagame will have corrected itself. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for a strat to be over-centralizing.

I hope that whoever wanted this test to happen goes and make a triple perish song team. I will be waiting with curse aggron, taunt whimsicott, and specs exploud. Please do not bring your butthurt into 1v1- this is the metagame people play when they want a change of pace from the regular metas. Do not come into 1v1 expecting to win, come into it expecting to flip some coins. If perish song is banned it will set a terrifying precedent that anytime a strat is doing well it should be banned instead of countered.
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...Have you ever watched a top-tier 1v1 player? If 1v1 is unpredictable as you say, how do top-level players constantly win games, perhaps ten in a row, perhaps more? It's all mindgames, sure, but the whole teambuilding process is about setting up those mindgames so that you've got an advantage. This is something that requires quite a large amount of skill. Allow me to explain: Say two players are all capable of beating all of the other player's pokemon. But one player has mons that each beat two of the opponent's mons, while the other player has mons that each beat only one of the opponent's mons. This basically means that that player has a far easier time predicting, as even if they predict the opponent's mon wrong they have a 50% chance of still sending out a counter.

Sure, Perish Song is just "yet another strat". But it's impossible to teambuild around within the confines of stall, and makes both teambuilding and set prediction far harder to do, especially considering that very few people actually bother to use it in the greater scheme of things. This makes it over-centralising. I came into 1v1 expecting to win, and I did win. That's how I got reqs.
 
As one of the avid player of 1v1 metagame, I say perish song should NOT get banned. It's not really hard to counter it, tbh. For people who says perish song overcentralize the meta, the same goes to kyurem-b, mawile-mega, etc.
If you dont have counter for them in your team, you lose.
And also, if perish song get banned, it makes the counter for already powerful pokes like kyurem-b, mawile-mega, charizard mega-x, mega-gyarados decrease and making the meta less diverse ..
 
OctopusHead said:
As one of the avid player of 1v1 metagame, I say perish song should NOT get banned. It's not really hard to counter it, tbh. For people who says perish song overcentralize the meta, the same goes to kyurem-b, mawile-mega, etc.
If you dont have counter for them in your team, you lose.
And also, if perish song get banned, it makes the counter for already powerful pokes like kyurem-b, mawile-mega, charizard mega-x, mega-gyarados decrease and making the meta less diverse ..
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That's because octopushead I've played you and your ace is perish song azumarill. You can't say you don't want it banned because you abuse it.
 
OctopusHead said:
As one of the avid player of 1v1 metagame, I say perish song should NOT get banned. It's not really hard to counter it, tbh. For people who says perish song overcentralize the meta, the same goes to kyurem-b, mawile-mega, etc.
If you dont have counter for them in your team, you lose.
And also, if perish song get banned, it makes the counter for already powerful pokes like kyurem-b, mawile-mega, charizard mega-x, mega-gyarados decrease and making the meta less diverse ..
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We don't want perish song banned because it's hard to counter; we want perish song banned to diversify the meta, similar to aegislash in OU. The problem with running defensive teams/pokemon in 1v1 right now is that every defensive strategy is practically invalidated by the sight of a perish song meloetta (not even exaggerating).
When you're saying kyube, mawile, and zard overcentralize the meta, I just want to point out that overcentralize =/= good. They define the meta, but don't necessarily overcentralize it.

Perish Song overcentralizes 1v1 due to the simple fact that offense is infinitely better than defense, and that's mainly due to perish song. I've tried laddering with defensive teams (which looked really solid, i built it based off of countering usage stats mons), bringing taunt, the supposed "counter", and still ended up losing many games to magic coat meloetta after around 4 series of 50/50s. It's simply impossible to stall a perish song user; anything that comes close to stally automatically loses to perish song, meaning you either have to put a specific wallbreaker on your team to break past both abusers (meaning using a stall pokemon almost automatically gives you a 66% chance of losing to a perish song user), or just lose. On the other side, I can prove why offense is so much better in this metagame with my reqs team; a full-out offensive team, which got reqs within 90 minutes, as opposed to a stall team, which, on a perish song infested ladder (as of right now), could hardly crack 1450.

"And also, if perish song get banned, it makes the counter for already powerful pokes like kyurem-b, mawile-mega, charizard mega-x, mega-gyarados decrease and making the meta less diverse ."
I don't really get this. If the usage for those mons decreased, like you said, that would only make the meta more diverse...more diverse = more kinds of mons.
 
aesf, what I mean is the COUNTER of pokes for kyurem-b, mawile-mega, and the stall team is decreased, not the usage of those mons

Well, and I think it's kinda obvious if you want to make a good team, you need an offensive pokemon at least one.

And also, If perish song is banned, doesnt that mean stall team will be OP?
 
OctopusHead said:
And also, If perish song is banned, doesnt that mean stall team will be OP?
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Like aesf said, stall / defense is already at a disadvantage in 1v1 even without perish song in the picture.
I've played 1v1 since over a year before Perish Song was unbanned and that was the case back then as well.
 
I wonder if I should come back and start laddering again, with how sad of a state its in (relative to older days) I wonder how fast I could reclaim #1 again (though it seems it has gotten slightly better since I last checked about a month ago). However, I still am definitely annoyed by how fast ELO decay sets in on Showdown compared to many many other games, so my desire to grind is still next-to-nonexistant.

That said, this suspect test is an interesting one at that. I personally have never had a problem with Perish Song, it's usually a free win for me, but I definitely see where it causes problems in teambuilding, where it basically requires you to have an answer to it. Despite that, aren't you supposed to have answers to as many things as possible? No team will ever be perfect against everything, and you can always lose the rock-paper-scissors aspect, like for example, I have to guess right against Mega Gyarados to have an easy time otherwise it'll be a hard fight for my other two Pokemon. Perish Song is somewhat different from most other strategies though as it's simply just click the move and wait. While many threats exist, Perish Song is different in that there's simply no outplay potential, you either win or lose depending on what the opposing Pokemon is.

I personally am leaning towards a ban only if to stop one of the few "cheese" strats out there and allow for other new and unique sets to pop up that would otherwise be overshadowed, but in terms of being too strong, it's definitely not as it's just one more strategy to beat.

Also what OctopusHead said, when does this vote close? I work a summer job and I'm wondering whether or not I should bother.
 
According to TI's previous post, voting ends on the 11th. (7:35 AM GMT -7, which is 2:35 PM GMT)

I'm also having difficulty finding time to ladder; hopefully I can fit in more time and not miss Play Rough when I'm at 1561.

If I manage to get reqs I'll try to prepare a post expressing my feelings about Perish Song.
 
I have been using perish song teams since 2010. It's a great move. It's a powerful move. It punishes protect spamming, wall-spamming, sub-spamming cheese. It has a large opportunity cost (forces YOU to switch out which HURTS LIKE HELL if your opponent has spikes or rocks set-up or you pick the wrong switch in on your opponent). It's a balanced move though, providing great utility to a lot of underutilized pokemon. In-fact, Perish Song was a great counter to ALL the things Smogon has banned in the past year (Baton Pass spam and a lot of broken megas, for one). It's a great move that makes many alternative builds possible (like using support Azumaril or Politoed) in OU.

If you ban this fucking move, this will be the generation that Smogon killed pokemon, essentially. You're removing so many standard strategies, shit from Gen 3 or earlier, instead of removing from play the shitty pokemon that break OU. Fuck this noise. Baton Pass strategies were fine in the same way Perish Song strategies were fine. Are we only allowed to use Landorus-U and Talonflame? I mean, why let people develop strategies and counters to the common trends? Maybe it's the common trends themselves which are the source of the problem? But I digress, considering the sad state of the game these days, I can only imagine how this vote is going to go. Another strategy down the drain - down with any strategy which isn't simply bread and butter. Ban anything powerful and interesting, like Perish Song is.

If you want to improve the metagame, try banning pokemon that actually drive the ladder, like Ferrothorn, Landorus-U and Heatran. These guys will continue to dictate who are the top pokemon, not fucking Perish Song. How people can be so out of touch with this game is just beyond me at this point.
 
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anubite said:
I have been using perish song teams since 2010. It's a great move. It's a powerful move. It punishes protect spamming, wall-spamming, sub-spamming cheese. It has a large opportunity cost (forces YOU to switch out which HURTS LIKE HELL if your opponent has spikes or rocks set-up or you pick the wrong switch in on your opponent). It's a balanced move though, providing great utility to a lot of underutilized pokemon. In-fact, Perish Song was a great counter to ALL the things Smogon has banned in the past year (Baton Pass spam and a lot of broken megas, for one). It's a great move that makes many alternative builds possible (like using support Azumaril or Politoed) in OU.

If you ban this fucking move, this will be the generation that Smogon killed pokemon, essentially. You're removing so many standard strategies, shit from Gen 3 or earlier, instead of removing from play the shitty pokemon that break OU. Fuck this noise. Baton Pass strategies were fine in the same way Perish Song strategies were fine. Are we only allowed to use Landorus-U and Talonflame? I mean, why let people develop strategies and counters to the common trends? Maybe it's the common trends themselves which are the source of the problem? But I digress, considering the sad state of the game these days, I can only imagine how this vote is going to go.

If you want to improve the metagame, try banning pokemon that actually drive the ladder, like Ferrothorn, Landorus-U and Heatran. These guys will continue to dictate who are the top pokemon, not fucking Perish Song.
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...This is 1v1. You can't switch because you've only got one pokemon. It's one of the most common things to use protect-spam. Moreover, stall isn't cheese, it is in fact very good to have a diverse metagame. And I don't see how countering baton pass is applicable in a metagame where you use one pokemon. Perhaps you should read what the thread is before posting? I repeat, This is not OU. This is 1v1. They are different. Perish Song will not be banned from OU.
 
anubite said:
I have been using perish song teams since 2010. It's a great move. It's a powerful move. It punishes protect spamming, wall-spamming, sub-spamming cheese. It has a large opportunity cost (forces YOU to switch out which HURTS LIKE HELL if your opponent has spikes or rocks set-up or you pick the wrong switch in on your opponent). It's a balanced move though, providing great utility to a lot of underutilized pokemon. In-fact, Perish Song was a great counter to ALL the things Smogon has banned in the past year (Baton Pass spam and a lot of broken megas, for one). It's a great move that makes many alternative builds possible (like using support Azumaril or Politoed) in OU.

If you ban this fucking move, this will be the generation that Smogon killed pokemon, essentially. You're removing so many standard strategies, shit from Gen 3 or earlier, instead of removing from play the shitty pokemon that break OU. Fuck this noise. Baton Pass strategies were fine in the same way Perish Song strategies were fine. Are we only allowed to use Landorus-U and Talonflame? I mean, why let people develop strategies and counters to the common trends? Maybe it's the common trends themselves which are the source of the problem? But I digress, considering the sad state of the game these days, I can only imagine how this vote is going to go. Another strategy down the drain - down with any strategy which isn't simply bread and butter. Ban anything powerful and interesting, like Perish Song is.

If you want to improve the metagame, try banning pokemon that actually drive the ladder, like Ferrothorn, Landorus-U and Heatran. These guys will continue to dictate who are the top pokemon, not fucking Perish Song. How people can be so out of touch with this game is just beyond me at this point.
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"Generation that Smogon killed pokemon"
I don't think it should be banned, but chill fam. There are definitely reasons to bring up the notion of a ban, so if thats what happens, the meta will adapt and everything will be just fine
 
anubite said:
I have been using perish song teams since 2010. It's a great move. It's a powerful move. It punishes protect spamming, wall-spamming, sub-spamming cheese. It has a large opportunity cost (forces YOU to switch out which HURTS LIKE HELL if your opponent has spikes or rocks set-up or you pick the wrong switch in on your opponent). It's a balanced move though, providing great utility to a lot of underutilized pokemon. In-fact, Perish Song was a great counter to ALL the things Smogon has banned in the past year (Baton Pass spam and a lot of broken megas, for one). It's a great move that makes many alternative builds possible (like using support Azumaril or Politoed) in OU.

If you ban this fucking move, this will be the generation that Smogon killed pokemon, essentially. You're removing so many standard strategies, shit from Gen 3 or earlier, instead of removing from play the shitty pokemon that break OU. Fuck this noise. Baton Pass strategies were fine in the same way Perish Song strategies were fine. Are we only allowed to use Landorus-U and Talonflame? I mean, why let people develop strategies and counters to the common trends? Maybe it's the common trends themselves which are the source of the problem? But I digress, considering the sad state of the game these days, I can only imagine how this vote is going to go. Another strategy down the drain - down with any strategy which isn't simply bread and butter. Ban anything powerful and interesting, like Perish Song is.

If you want to improve the metagame, try banning pokemon that actually drive the ladder, like Ferrothorn, Landorus-U and Heatran. These guys will continue to dictate who are the top pokemon, not fucking Perish Song. How people can be so out of touch with this game is just beyond me at this point.
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Can we pin this as an example of what not to do, and why having reading comprehension skill is important in life? lol
 
sqenton & co said:
personaly i think it should be useable on the condition that they extend the "till perish" time limit
i am not sur if smogon is allowed to do this but if they can they should do it
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No, Smogon follows in-game mechanics. Unless Game Freak changes it, Perish Song stays the same.
 
Well I can't get reqs cause I'm on vacation, and I couldn't make reqs in the 2 days I had before. But I wanted to quickly post that I support a Perish Song ban. It's super unhealthy and uncompetitive for the meta. Stall sets can't ever beat Perish Sets, so it's very limiting. You have to build around being able to do about 64% damage to at least Meloetta and Azumaril on each team. It's impossible to build a full stall team without a fast Taunt. Even Taunt doesn't full counter Perish Song due to Magic Coat Melo. Coat Melo creates a 50/50 mind game with the Taunt user. That's not even mentioning the uncompetitive nature of Protect, which can be used 3 times in a row without fail if you win 2 coin flips. It makes luck matter more then skill. Hence why Perish Song needs to be banned. Not because it's difficult to counter, but because banning it would help diversify the meta and promote skill based strategies.
 
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NinetyNineNo said:
I've a question. Is there any reason not to just run a Choice item?
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Firstly, setup can be very strong: A bulky mega gyarados set with dragon dance can DD on a banded kyu-b and then KO with outrage next turn.
Secondly, tying in with the first point, there's megas like mega gyara, mega salamence and mega zards that are better than choice items in many ways.
Thirdly, stall is still viable: A Chansey set utilising counter is very easy to use and beats practically any banded mon there is, while charm is used more due to the larger number of setup sweepers and the fact that it still beats most choiced mons.
 
NinetyNineNo said:
I've a question. Is there any reason not to just run a Choice item?
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Disable and items like Air Balloon tend to discourage choice item users. Also, sometimes with CounterCoat users, if you have a physical and special attack, you can play some mind games to take less damage from those moves. Also, choice items allow things like Whimsicott to scout with Protect and play accordingly.
 
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NinetyNineNo said:
Alright, cool. One more thing, out of curiosity -- is Sturdy Metal Burst Aggron a thing?
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Sturdy aggron holding aggronite is very good at facing many offensive threats.

Holding aggronite means that you can either abuse sturdy and metal burst against choice users among other offensive mons or you can mega evolve and utilize sky high defense, better attack and have a better chance against abilities like mold breaker.
 
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