Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

I am not taking any particlar side in this discussion at this time as I simply want to assist making said discussion thought provoking.

If one of the main reasons why trick is getting a lot of flack is because it stops a large portion of stall, then is it not logical that the same wave of thinking could apply to the likes of mega slowbro? It's pretty much a fact that no viable 1v1 physical attacker can take on the defensive behemoth on it's own, but most people won't bat an eye at mega slowbro because it is taken down by almost every viable 1v1 special attacker in turn.

Because of how said pokemon is toppled by special attacks, the first thing that must be done when using it is to use one or two other mons that can cover it's special defense weakness of course. By the same notion, is it not out of the realm of expectation that someone using a mon that is vulnerable to trick be covered by one or two other mons as well?

1v1 is a metagame of winning matchups and losing matchups in a rock,paper,scissors style of format that relies heavily on a psychological game. However, it's simply a fact of 1v1 that certain mons just cannot win against certain threats because of some combination of stats, ability, typing, and item.

One other thing that I would like to point to for discussion is Taunt. Both trick and taunt can put a huge dent in stall, so I think it would be good to establish why only one of the moves move is being considered centralizing.

If any think I am biased to keep trick around, I honestly don't give two shits about the strategy itself and hardly use it. I am only stating the above because I want to see this discussion be as critical and thorough as possible.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
I want to see this discussion be as critical and thorough as possible.
That is a good thing, and I will address your points.

If one of the main reasons why trick is getting a lot of flack is because it stops a large portion of stall, then is it not logical that the same wave of thinking could apply to the likes of mega slowbro? It's pretty much a fact that no viable 1v1 physical attacker can take on the defensive behemoth on it's own, but most people won't bat an eye at mega slowbro because it is taken down by almost every viable 1v1 special attacker in turn.
It doesn't just stop stall, but as I keep repeating, it stops almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, while also capable of having good match-ups vs everything else. This is where the Mega Slowbro argument is faulty, because as you said, Mega Slowbro "is taken down by almost every viable 1v1 special attacker in turn". The TrickChoice pokes don't have that disadvantage.

Because of how said pokemon is toppled by special attacks, the first thing that must be done when using it is to use one or two other mons that can cover it's special defense weakness of course. By the same notion, is it not out of the realm of expectation that someone using a mon that is vulnerable to trick be covered by one or two other mons as well?

1v1 is a metagame of winning matchups and losing matchups in a rock,paper,scissors style of format that relies heavily on a psychological game.
Because you can't cover the TrickChoice weakness unless using something very specific that beats all of them, such as Metal Burst Mega Aggron, otherwise it's still match-up based. TrickChoice pokes have the advantage of taking out almost all pokemon archetypes while still being match-up based against everything else. Also regarding that 1v1 is a rock-paper-scissors style of format, while it may be this way now, it didn't always be this way. I don't know if any change about that would be up for discussion here by The Immortal, but rock-paper-scissors is not ideal for a competitive metagame in my opinion.

However, it's simply a fact of 1v1 that certain mons just cannot win against certain threats because of some combination of stats, ability, typing, and item
In this case these "certain mons" are almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move and the "certain threats" is TrickChoice. That should speak for itself about how disproportional it is.

One other thing that I would like to point to for discussion is Taunt. Both trick and taunt can put a huge dent in stall, so I think it would be good to establish why only one of the moves move is being considered centralizing.
Because there are many differences between Taunt and TrickChoice.
  • By using the choice item the poke gets an advantage in speed or power, something that Taunt users won't get.
  • Requiring the use of more than 1 move doesn't mean that all or any the moves have to be status moves. I could list examples if needed, but I hope you see my point already.
  • Taunt lasts 3 turns, and anything can happen during those 3 turns, such as: speed change due to something like Icy Wind, which means that the Taunted poke gets access to recovery or something else that might let it win for example.
  • Because Taunt lasts 3 turns, it will need to be used again after 3 turns, in the turn it has to be used again the Taunt poke could be in such a situation that it could either be KO'd if it uses Taunt or possibly lose to a status move if it doesn't use Taunt.
  • Because Taunt needs to be used again, it can get pp stalled.
  • Taunt (unless used by a Mold Breaker) is stopped by Magic Bounce, Oblivious, and Aroma Veil.
The battle is instantly over only if Taunt is used against an all status-move set (unless the poke has an ability which makes it unaffected by taunt (unless Mold Breaker)), while the battle is instantly over when TrickChoice is used against almost any non-mega set that requires the use of more than 1 move.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
That is a good thing, and I will address your points.
I will address your points too.
It doesn't just stop stall, but as I keep repeating, it stops almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, while also capable of having good match-ups vs everything else. This is where the Mega Slowbro argument is faulty, because as you said, Mega Slowbro "is taken down by almost every viable 1v1 special attacker in turn". The TrickChoice pokes don't have that disadvantage.
It's not trick choice itself that has good matchups vs everything else, it's the mon itself. Ask for a Victini suspect and not a trick choice one.
Because you can't cover the TrickChoice weakness unless using something very specific that beats all of them, such as Metal Burst Mega Aggron, otherwise it's still match-up based. TrickChoice pokes have the advantage of taking out almost all pokemon archetypes while still being match-up based against everything else. Also regarding that 1v1 is a rock-paper-scissors style of format, while it may be this way now, it didn't always be this way. I don't know if any change about that would be up for discussion here by The Immortal, but rock-paper-scissors is not ideal for a competitive metagame in my opinion.
This is a rock-paper-scissors metagame no matter what you do, so we have to focus on the teambuilding aspect when it comes to being banworthy. Is something overcentralizing, meaning that it has few counters? Everything has some counters and people will bring one, the question is how many are there. Just because Trick Choice beats some things doesn't mean it is op. Disable beats all choiced mons and has decent matchups against everything else, but that isn't broken. Taunt is similar to trick choice (we'll get into that below) but it isn't broken. Tons of things beat trick choice- it's the mon itself that is op. So ask for a Victini suspect!
In this case these "certain mons" are almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move and the "certain threats" is TrickChoice. That should speak for itself about how disproportional it is.
Except it's not almost all. If it is a non stall mon, you just gave them more speed or more power. Only things like Chansey that use SToss to damage get beaten every time, but Chansey also loses to Stallbreakers. Don't exaggerate.
Because there are many differences between Taunt and TrickChoice.
  • By using the choice item the poke gets an advantage in speed or power, something that Taunt users won't get.
  • Requiring the use of more than 1 move doesn't mean that all or any the moves have to be status moves. I could list examples if needed, but I hope you see my point already.
  • Taunt lasts 3 turns, and anything can happen during those 3 turns, such as: speed change due to something like Icy Wind, which means that the Taunted poke gets access to recovery or something else that might let it win for example.
  • Because Taunt lasts 3 turns, it will need to be used again after 3 turns, in the turn it has to be used again the Taunt poke could be in such a situation that it could either be KO'd if it uses Taunt or possibly lose to a status move if it doesn't use Taunt.
  • Because Taunt needs to be used again, it can get pp stalled.
  • Taunt (unless used by a Mold Breaker) is stopped by Magic Bounce, Oblivious, and Aroma Veil.
The battle is instantly over only if Taunt is used against an all status-move set (unless the poke has an ability which makes it unaffected by taunt (unless Mold Breaker)), while the battle is instantly over when TrickChoice is used against almost any non-mega set that requires the use of more than 1 move.
There are many differences between Taunt and Trick Choice, let me teach you them.
  • By tricking the choice item you give THE OPPONENT a boost in speed or power.
  • I really don't understand what your second bullet point means, but taunt can be one move on any set. It doesn't even lock up the item slot, so you can use it on a mega as well! Trick can be used only on coice mons, while taunt is a lot more versatile.
  • If you Trick, then they get a nifty choice item that boosts their speed or power.
  • It doesn't matter that Taunt lasts three turns because they can't recover in between. All you need to be able to do is 3HKO them and not get 3HKOd yourself (or if they use a status move turn 1 they have to 2HKO you). If you trick them, the boosted speed means if they 3HKO you and you 2HKO them, you still lose, or the boosted power means you lose as well.
  • Taunt will NEVER get pp stalled since your opponent wont be able to recover regardless.
  • Trick is stopped by Megas, which are way more viable than Oblivious, Aromatisse, or Magic Bounce (since the only non mega ones are Xatu and Espeon, are those are pretty shit).
Then after that you once again overemphasize the efficacy of Trick Choice. Many replays have been shown of Trick Choice not being enough to even beat stall so I don't know how you can say it beats almost any non-mega set requiring multiple moves, or even how common non-mega sets requiring multiple moves are.

So once again, Trick Choice doesn't need a suspect at all. Point out the mon that is op since the strategy itself is not. For example, Lapras is ass without PS, and Meloetta and Azu both dropped in the Viability ranks, but Victini will still be just as good without Trick, and nothing is viable solely because of Trick.
 
thesecondbest I don't even play 1v1, but I wanted to address one of your arguments. When you say that Trick giving the opponent a boost in power, that's not really true. Choice Scarf only boosts speed, which defensive mons don't even invest in (I'm pretty sure but correct me if I'm wrong). The "nifty" boosts they get barely benefit them (and most of the time it's Choice Scarf anyways so there's no power boost). Looking at the viability rankings these, most of the defensive mons have losing their item/getting locked into a move in return. Another thing that could be deadly is Trick+Disable (if this turns out to be innovative I'm taking the credit).

One other thing about Trick is it doesn't have to be used all the time. Let's take Victini as an example. If the opponent is either a mega or offensive pokemon, there's no need for Trick. But Trick/Switcheroo allows a pokemon to have a good matchup against all different types of pokemon. I think that's why people are asking for a ban, not just because of the the move itself, but the ability to deal with even more things than it could without Trick/Switcheroo.

Sorry for any grammatical mistakes,I'm on mobile.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Honestly the only thing I think is op is Trick + Disable. Otherwise things can deal with it. And with a scarf, sure, chansey won't outsped you, but he says it beats any non mega relying on multiple moves, so any non-stally mon that Rumple claims trick choice beats will outspeed with the scarf. And once again, ask for a Victini suspect if that is the case. Perish Song was used against any style of mon, while the whole package is what makes Victini good.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
It's not trick choice itself that has good matchups vs everything else, it's the mon itself. Ask for a Victini suspect and not a trick choice one.
That's what I said, "The TrickChoice pokes". They have Trick for beating almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, and 3 other moves for everything else. And like I've said in an earlier post, the pokes that can utilize TrickChoice are too many to ban, and most of them could be beaten by an abundance of different strategies if it wasn't for Trick.

This is a rock-paper-scissors metagame no matter what you do, so we have to focus on the teambuilding aspect when it comes to being banworthy.
What I meant was that 1v1 wasn't a rock-paper-scissors metagame before the team preview change, just as a sidenote. And while it is a rock-paper-scissors metagame right now, not all teams force a rock-paper-scissors situation, because while extremely more difficult to do now, some teams can still get beaten by a single poke. However, if a team has 1 TrickChoice poke you are instantly way more restricted in finding a counter, and this pretty much guarantees a rock-paper-scissors situation. Also another thing to note, even if you think you've built a team, once you pick your poke that poke becomes your whole team. So once again we need to make sure there are no unfair battles, even if you could have picked something else to avoid that battle.

Is something overcentralizing, meaning that it has few counters? Everything has some counters and people will bring one, the question is how many are there. Just because Trick Choice beats some things doesn't mean it is op. Taunt is similar to trick choice (we'll get into that below) but it isn't broken. Tons of things beat trick choice- it's the mon itself that is op. So ask for a Victini suspect!
Indeed what you are saying is right in that "everything has some counters", and the counters for the TrickChoice pokes are extremely fewer than the counters and potential counters for everything else. Also, you are classifying almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move as "some things" and that is not something as trivial as just "some things". And I have already listed many reasons why TrickChoice is broken, you're just ignoring them with that statement.

Disable beats all choiced mons and has decent matchups against everything else, but that isn't broken.
That's exactly the kind of entitled thinking that I'm trying to shed some light into. Choiced pokes have taken that chance of losing to something like Disable on purpose in order to gain an advantage in speed or power and that's a choice they will have to live with. Also, Disable by itself doesn't beat all choiced pokes. Firstly, you might need to have a set that's able to deal some form of damage because because 1 Disable is 4 turns, and not all pokes die to 4 struggle recoils because of odd HP values. Secondly, you need to have a poke that can take a hit and use Disable or outspeed and use Disable, while also not being KO'd to the struggle hits. So it's not as easy as just slapping Disable on a poke and expecting to beat all choiced pokes. Meanwhile TrickChoice is exactly that, just put 3 coverage moves on a raw power poke and slap on a Trick to count a majority of pokes and sets out of the equation.

Except it's not almost all. If it is a non stall mon, you just gave them more speed or more power. Only things like Chansey that use SToss to damage get beaten every time, but Chansey also loses to Stallbreakers. Don't exaggerate.
  • By tricking the choice item you give THE OPPONENT a boost in speed or power.
  • If you Trick, then they get a nifty choice item that boosts their speed or power.
You are being very narrow minded if you think that giving something that relies on more than 1 move more speed or potentially more power will make any relevant difference. I've already mentioned some strategies that rely on more than 1 move in my initial post and almost none of them can turn the match-up around by that 1.5x boost in speed or 1.5x boost in spA or Atk if even receiving the relevant stat by the choice item.

I really don't understand what your second bullet point means, but taunt can be one move on any set. It doesn't even lock up the item slot, so you can use it on a mega as well! Trick can be used only on coice mons, while taunt is a lot more versatile.
You misunderstood my point. My point is that Taunt stops status moves and that TrickChoice beats almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, so I hope "Requiring the use of more than 1 move doesn't mean that all or any the moves have to be status moves." makes more sense now.

It doesn't matter that Taunt lasts three turns because they can't recover in between. All you need to be able to do is 3HKO them and not get 3HKOd yourself (or if they use a status move turn 1 they have to 2HKO you).
First of all, you're assuming that the Taunt poke has relevant damage or damage enough to even 3HKO.
Secondly, like I said, a move like Icy Wind will allow the taunted poke to outspeed another Taunt and possibly recover hp.

Taunt will NEVER get pp stalled since your opponent wont be able to recover regardless.
This replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-235003904 proves your statement wrong and that's just one example.

Trick is stopped by Megas, which are way more viable than Oblivious, Aromatisse, or Magic Bounce (since the only non mega ones are Xatu and Espeon, are those are pretty shit).
While that may be a difference, I'm arguing that being forced to use megas is overcentralizing. Also a mega won't necessarily stop a TrickChoice poke, as I've kept repeating.

Then after that you once again overemphasize the efficacy of Trick Choice. Many replays have been shown of Trick Choice not being enough to even beat stall so I don't know how you can say it beats almost any non-mega set requiring multiple moves, or even how common non-mega sets requiring multiple moves are.
This is bigger than stall vs TrickChoice, and do you really need replays to understand the concept that TrickChoice beats sets that require more than 1 move? And how common non-mega multi-move requiring sets is irrelevant in this case because we already know that in 1v1 megas and 1-move strats is what's most common. What matters is if the sets that require more than 1 move are viable and if enough of them exist, and the answer to both is yes.

So once again, Trick Choice doesn't need a suspect at all. Point out the mon that is op since the strategy itself is not. For example, Lapras is ass without PS, and Meloetta and Azu both dropped in the Viability ranks, but Victini will still be just as good without Trick, and nothing is viable solely because of Trick.
And that's exactly one of the reasons why TrickChoice (or Trick) should be banned. The TrickChoice pokes are all perfectly viable without Trick, while also getting to use Trick to without effort take out a substantial portion of pokes and strategies for just 1 moveslot.
 
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Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Finally, I'm currently #11 on 1v1 Ladder. And I say that Rough Skin mechanics be changed, because if you are on low health and attack a Pokemon with Rough Skin, and it faints first, but then you faint, the Pokemon with Rough Skin wins. That wouldn't be very fair, wouldn't it? Especially considering that the player who last attacked should be crowned the winner.
And to the people who are having trouble with Sturdy Gimmicks, from my experience, use Black Kyurem. It breaks through all popular 1v1 Weakness Policy sets with Teravolt. This also means that no more will you be embarrased by being stalled out by Aron or Nosepass, but a quick Earth Power is going to KO both of them. Magnezone, Golem, and Aggron all will be OHKo'd without Sturdy activating.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Finally, I'm currently #11 on 1v1 Ladder. And I say that Rough Skin mechanics be changed, because if you are on low health and attack a Pokemon with Rough Skin, and it faints first, but then you faint, the Pokemon with Rough Skin wins. That wouldn't be very fair, wouldn't it? Especially considering that the player who last attacked should be crowned the winner.
And to the people who are having trouble with Sturdy Gimmicks, from my experience, use Black Kyurem. It breaks through all popular 1v1 Weakness Policy sets with Teravolt. This also means that no more will you be embarrased by being stalled out by Aron or Nosepass, but a quick Earth Power is going to KO both of them. Magnezone, Golem, and Aggron all will be OHKo'd without Sturdy activating.
Who wins is based on which pokemon faints first according to in-game mechanics. If you think the mechanics on the sim are wrong then feel free to report it as a bug, but metagames aren't going to change the game mechanics without good reason.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Who wins is based on which pokemon faints first according to in-game mechanics. If you think the mechanics on the sim are wrong then feel free to report it as a bug, but metagames aren't going to change the game mechanics without good reason.
Yeah. you just stated my point. In 1v1 the Pokemon with Rough Skin faints first, but for some reason the Pokemon who has knocked out the Pokemon with Rough Skin faints last , but they still die. I wonder where Guang Guao Guang (whatever his name is) is out there, happy that he has sinned!

And you are showing much contradiction when you said "metagames aren't going to change the game mechanics without good reason". No offense, Smogon is the best Pokemon Battling System, but on numerous accounts they have banned things WITHOUT good reason. *cough* *cough* Mega Charizard X *cough *cough*
 
Yeah. you just stated my point. In 1v1 the Pokemon with Rough Skin faints first, but for some reason the Pokemon who has knocked out the Pokemon with Rough Skin faints last , but they still die. I wonder where Guang Guao Guang (whatever his name is) is out there, happy that he has sinned!

And you are showing much contradiction when you said "metagames aren't going to change the game mechanics without good reason". No offense, Smogon is the best Pokemon Battling System, but on numerous accounts they have banned things WITHOUT good reason. *cough* *cough* Mega Charizard X *cough *cough*
Not really sure what you're trying to say here about game mechanics, since we never alter game mechanics, but the mechanics are currently implemented correctly on the simulator. The Pokemon that takes Rough Skin damage is intended to lose the battle. For instance, I've lost countless battles to my Azumarill living Banded Garchomp's Poison Jab, only to die to Rough Skin when I use Play Rough and OHKO, costing me the game.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Not really sure what you're trying to say here about game mechanics, since we never alter game mechanics, but the mechanics are currently implemented correctly on the simulator. The Pokemon that takes Rough Skin damage is intended to lose the battle. For instance, I've lost countless battles to my Azumarill living Banded Garchomp's Poison Jab, only to die to Rough Skin when I use Play Rough and OHKO, costing me the game.
Exactly. In 1v1 if you die to Rough Skin after KOing it, you lose the game. I think I should report this bug, as it has happened multiple times, but only in 1v1. No other tier has that bug but 1v1.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
That's what I said, "The TrickChoice pokes". They have Trick for beating almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, and 3 other moves for everything else. And like I've said in an earlier post, the pokes that can utilize TrickChoice are too many to ban, and most of them could be beaten by an abundance of different strategies if it wasn't for Trick.
OK whatever. If you think that there are sooooo many things that are banworthy, why would you ever wait to post this? Clearly the meta is in a terrible state because there are so many banworthy things. This is just further proof of how exaggerated your claims are. Of course your posts get tons of like from people who fall to your rhetoric. If you can prove that everything you say is actually true, then of course Trick Choice is banworthy. But a lot of your claims are incorrect, and by deluding yourself into thinking this way you have basically stopped this thread from being capable of talking about anything else. So let me just disprove your points one last time.

What I meant was that 1v1 wasn't a rock-paper-scissors metagame before the team preview change, just as a sidenote. And while it is a rock-paper-scissors metagame right now, not all teams force a rock-paper-scissors situation, because while extremely more difficult to do now, some teams can still get beaten by a single poke. However, if a team has 1 TrickChoice poke you are instantly way more restricted in finding a counter, and this pretty much guarantees a rock-paper-scissors situation. Also another thing to note, even if you think you've built a team, once you pick your poke that poke becomes your whole team. So once again we need to make sure there are no unfair battles, even if you could have picked something else to avoid that battle.
Make sure there are no unfair battles? How is that even possible? What if I pick Abomasnow because he has three Sturdy mons? That will be an unfair battle. This statememnt doesn't make any sense so I'll just skip over it.

Indeed what you are saying is right in that "everything has some counters", and the counters for the TrickChoice pokes are extremely fewer than the counters and potential counters for everything else. Also, you are classifying almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move as "some things" and that is not something as trivial as just "some things". And I have already listed many reasons why TrickChoice is broken, you're just ignoring them with that statement.
Once again you talk about the TrickChoice pokes being broken, which may be true. Of course, if Trick Choice really beat "almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move", a phrase that you have said a trillion times without proof, it is broken. You just reiterate this statement against anything anyone else says and then say Trick Choice is broken. Whatever.

That's exactly the kind of entitled thinking that I'm trying to shed some light into. Choiced pokes have taken that chance of losing to something like Disable on purpose in order to gain an advantage in speed or power and that's a choice they will have to live with. Also, Disable by itself doesn't beat all choiced pokes. Firstly, you might need to have a set that's able to deal some form of damage because because 1 Disable is 4 turns, and not all pokes die to 4 struggle recoils because of odd HP values. Secondly, you need to have a poke that can take a hit and use Disable or outspeed and use Disable, while also not being KO'd to the struggle hits. So it's not as easy as just slapping Disable on a poke and expecting to beat all choiced pokes. Meanwhile TrickChoice is exactly that, just put 3 coverage moves on a raw power poke and slap on a Trick to count a majority of pokes and sets out of the equation.
So basically anything that can live a hit and a struggle and deal 1 damage in return is not common? Assuming that something can live one hit is entitled thinking? Ok nice pun with choice XD but otherwise Disable beats every choiced mon if you fulfill a few simple criterion. Then you say Trick Choice is even better with once again, your unsubstantiated claim.

You are being very narrow minded if you think that giving something that relies on more than 1 move more speed or potentially more power will make any relevant difference. I've already mentioned some strategies that rely on more than 1 move in my initial post and almost none of them can turn the match-up around by that 1.5x boost in speed or 1.5x boost in spA or Atk if even receiving the relevant stat by the choice item.
I'm being narrow minded by saying that? I went through a bunch of different scenarios in my post.
  • It doesn't matter that Taunt lasts three turns because they can't recover in between. All you need to be able to do is 3HKO them and not get 3HKOd yourself (or if they use a status move turn 1 they have to 2HKO you). If you trick them, the boosted speed means if they 3HKO you and you 2HKO them, you still lose, or the boosted power means you lose as well.
So yes, giving something more power or speed makes a difference unless it is a stall, and you have said time and time again that it beats "almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move", which consists of more than stall. Let's look at all those strategies.
- Stall (replays have been shown of chansey beating trick meloetta so it isn't an auto win)
- Defensive setup (not really sure about the difference between this and stall, but let's say for example they have Mega Slowbro. Oh Wait you can't even trick that. Calm mind Sableye? No. Curse snorlax or something random like that? It depends on the trick user as Body Slam is pretty damn strong, so once again it isn't an auto win. For example, some meloetta sets will lose to spdef curse lax 1v1.)
- Offensive Setup (No way. Especially with the power or speed boost you are not going to beat them. For example, Smash Crustle is a 50-50 vs PZ, but beats the oher two listed trick mons every time. And other mons that are stronger but have weaker setup moves will do even better.)
- Wear down strategies (if they are offensive wear down mons, they beat you if you trick them a choice item, as they get their offense or speed boosted. Otherwise I would describe it as stall, which we have already discussed, you don't always beat, and that isn't even sufficient reason to ban.)
-Coverage moves + a priority move (How the hell are you beating this? If the coverage move 2HKOs you with the priority move, and you can't OHKO in return, you lose. Tricking is completely pointless in this scenario as it wastes a move and gives them the ability to outspeed or more power to KO even faster. You are not winning this.
- Multi-Move Gimmicks (No example of what on Earth this is, and no explanation why they can't just click their strongest move multiple times)
- Pretty much else beside pure offense and megas (correct me if I'm wrong) (Well, I think you're wrong and I have just corrected you.)

Overall, if you trick, maybe they cant use their priority move, but they don't have to since they just wasted a move. Otherwise any non stall mons win by just clicking their strongest move, and it is a 50-50 at best vs offensive setup. So your ultra exaggerated claims are complete bullshit.

You misunderstood my point. My point is that Taunt stops status moves and that TrickChoice beats almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, so I hope "Requiring the use of more than 1 move doesn't mean that all or any the moves have to be status moves." makes more sense now.
Taunt also beats stuff that needs only one status move. Taunt is waaay more splashable and more effective vs stall, so the only way your points are valid is if your exaggerated claims are actually true.

First of all, you're assuming that the Taunt poke has relevant damage or damage enough to even 3HKO.
Secondly, like I said, a move like Icy Wind will allow the taunted poke to outspeed another Taunt and possibly recover hp.
OK taunt has flaws. It isn't broken, of course it will have flaws. Back to the relevant discussion.

This replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-235003904 proves your statement wrong and that's just one example.
Well that is because your Trick Choice mons are all offensive. An offensive mon (so basically not Mandibuzz) would win in that scenario because most offensive mons can do more than leftovers damage when attacking.

While that may be a difference, I'm arguing that being forced to use megas is overcentralizing. Also a mega won't necessarily stop a TrickChoice poke, as I've kept repeating.
It doesn't force you to use a mega, and the TrickChoice poke beats you, not the strategy. The strategy is completely balanced, ask for the individual mons to be banned. I don't know how many times I have to say this, as every time you just respond with the same exaggerated claims.

This is bigger than stall vs TrickChoice, and do you really need replays to understand the concept that TrickChoice beats sets that require more than 1 move? And how common non-mega multi-move requiring sets is irrelevant in this case because we already know that in 1v1 megas and 1-move strats is what's most common. What matters is if the sets that require more than 1 move are viable and if enough of them exist, and the answer to both is yes.
Yes I need replays to understand that. I can't really refute your arguments because it's based on unsubstantiated, overblown claims like this. You make insane claims like "How common it is does matter - Shedinja may beat some teams but it isn't broken. I refuted your examples above, unless you can prove your ultra exaggerated claim, I think this discussion is over.

And that's exactly one of the reasons why TrickChoice (or Trick) should be banned. The TrickChoice pokes are all perfectly viable without Trick, while also getting to use Trick to without effort take out a substantial portion of pokes and strategies for just 1 moveslot.
And that's exactly why you should listen to what I have said a billion times- ask for the Mons to be banned because the strategies themselves sure as hell aren't broken.
I hope we're done here. I hate having to read five paragraphs of the same stuff from someone who doesn't listen to my responses.
 
It doesn't force you to use a mega, and the TrickChoice poke beats you, not the strategy. The strategy is completely balanced, ask for the individual mons to be banned. I don't know how many times I have to say this, as every time you just respond with the same exaggerated claims.
Ok I was trying to avoid getting into this argument because I'm not as good at articulating points in support of this ban as Rumple is, but I need to respond to this. I've seen you saying this a bunch but this is a terrible idea. Not every pokemon that gets Trick + Scarf is broken. However, there are quite a few. This would entail banning Victini, Porygon-Z, Latios, Meloetta, and probably others. However, Rumplestiltskin is arguing that they are not broken without a Trick Choice set. It's really dumb to ban a bunch of Pokemon when they share 1 set in common that is broken. That would be like banning Meloetta, Azumarill, and Lapras from 1v1 instead of Perish Song. Can we agree that's an awful idea?

I hate having to read five paragraphs of the same stuff from someone who doesn't listen to my responses.
You really haven't been refuting his points at all. Every time I see you saying the exact same thing and ignoring his well thought out arguments. He has responded to you, point by point, each time and is not ignoring your arguments.
 

Gross Sweep

is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
Ok, so I want to address the whole trick+choice item debate.
First - if anythings about to get banned it should not be a mon, just the move trick.
Also I get that some of these trick sets hurt stall and are somewhat broken, but I don't necessarily agree with banning them. One of the things that makes 1v1 fun is that you have to build 3 diverse mons and hope you pick the right one in the team preview, so if trick stops people from bringing 3 super fat pokes I don't see the real downside. Bring your chansey, but make sure your team also has a trick counter- I call that good team building. The same goes for other strategies like someone bringing a mega mawile as their main mon. Mawile loses to zard y, so what do people do? that's right they bring a zard y counter and not complain that it's broken.

I will say that u don't have to agree with what I have to say, but you should consider it. I peaked 6th on ladder during ps test, and have peaked 8th after this ladder restart. During the PS test I actually used lapras to grab sixth around 1620 points. With lapras being banned I had a tough time at first, but eventually figured it out. Interesting note I used a victini on my run to 8th, but it didn't have trick.

I feel comfortable as a somewhat successful 1v1 player that any player at a reasonably high level should have no problem dealing with choice trick strategies.
 

Gross Sweep

is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
Alright I'm just going to ask a question about laddering in the 1v1 tier. Recently my account viability tester peaked #1 on the 1v1 ladder with a score of 1582. During this time I used 3 teams: one I made, another Potpic, and lastly Glyx. I liked all three and used them all fairly equally during my run. So the question I want to ask is how many teams do you really need to climb the 1v1 ladder?

I've heard that when you really want to ladder high you must use multiple teams so that the other players, of the very small group of 1v1 players on the ladder, don't figure out your strategy and counter team. On the other hand I've seen players build 1 great team and try to ladder with that teams pure strength.

Not sure if this belongs here, but I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Also I posted last here on Sunday, but the thread has been dead for multiple days and I wanted to get it active again.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I certainly find that if you use the same team a lot of the time other people will c-team you, as well as discovering all your tricks (finding out that it's a sub megamence so it beats their chansey, for example), and your team becomes less effective. It's also worth doing this the other way around: make slight edits to your team (changing a move or EVs etc.) so that you beat others on the ladder more easily. There's also the mindgames of "they brought greninja last game and lost so does that mean they'll use mawile this time or keep using greninja?"

With all of this added up, having two or more teams can definitely be helpful: I generally use one for perhaps three games, then swap over to a team that easily beas the things that team lost to, or just beats what's common on the ladder.

More often though, I'll play one or two games of 1v1 then go do something else for an hour. It's partially because I'm always doing a lot of things, but it also avoids all the things I mentionned earlier that I find often make me lose games. It's not great for getting to 1600 in a day or anything, but it kept me in the top twenty for over a month at one point.
 
Ok, so I want to address the whole trick+choice item debate.
First - if anythings about to get banned it should not be a mon, just the move trick.
Also I get that some of these trick sets hurt stall and are somewhat broken, but I don't necessarily agree with banning them. One of the things that makes 1v1 fun is that you have to build 3 diverse mons and hope you pick the right one in the team preview, so if trick stops people from bringing 3 super fat pokes I don't see the real downside. Bring your chansey, but make sure your team also has a trick counter- I call that good team building. The same goes for other strategies like someone bringing a mega mawile as their main mon. Mawile loses to zard y, so what do people do? that's right they bring a zard y counter and not complain that it's broken.

I will say that u don't have to agree with what I have to say, but you should consider it. I peaked 6th on ladder during ps test, and have peaked 8th after this ladder restart. During the PS test I actually used lapras to grab sixth around 1620 points. With lapras being banned I had a tough time at first, but eventually figured it out. Interesting note I used a victini on my run to 8th, but it didn't have trick.

I feel comfortable as a somewhat successful 1v1 player that any player at a reasonably high level should have no problem dealing with choice trick strategies.
The problem with this is logic is, the only thing that beats every Trick+Choice user is Prankster Disable. So you can't build a team with 2 fat/gimmick/multi move offense mons and "Trick Counter" without having Prankster Disable on every one of these teams. This is different from every team having a Mawile or Zard y counter. Both Mawile and Zard Y have multiple pokemon that beat them incredibly consistently. There is one consistent answer to Choice+Trick. Otherwise it is dependent on which Pokemon is using Choice+Trick.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok, bear with me here because I haven't played any hackmons varients since gen V, but some initial threats that I see:

Firstly, perish song is back, and this time it's brought its friend soundproof to play meaning you don't even have to waste a turn on that annoying trick room. I don't know how likely Giratina is to live two hits with sitrus helping out, but if it can then that's pretty much game over. The set can also pp stall imposters, which are potentially a threat.

The other tactic I've noticed is normalize + skill swap, which could potentally be run quite effectively alongside a focus sash. It's possible this set could be stalled out by certain mons with prankster recovery to outrun taunt, or unaware if this mon runs setup over taunt, however many threats will probably fall to this mon. Another possibility for this set is lum to escape first turn prankster sleeps, though this would probably reduce the tactic's viability in most circumstances.

I've probably missed some huge things here, but that's just some first impressions on what might make for big threats, my team's probably never going to win now that I've given away my two best sets but oh well.
 
Perish Song is actually insanely broken. Shuckle is a terrible Pokemon, but it outslows everything else and can use a combination of King's Shield for -ate priority and Prankster Spore to defeat even stuff like Huge Power. Imposter is a 50/50 that can be addressed by running Iron Ball. Even Soundproof users are not safe from Mold Breaker Perish Song, which is a very viable option. I expect this to, as it did in normal 1v1 for a time, completely dominate the metagame.
 

Maleovex

Lt. Col. of The Kyergrzstan Killer Beez
Just made a quick set which I think could be pretty cool
Aggron-Mega @
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Bashful Nature
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Trick
- Recover

Mega Aggron is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the game, though it's special defence is a bit lacking, and it's lack of recovery really hurts it, in hack ons you can have both of those.
This set accomplishes quite a lot as it hits both physical and special attackers very hard, while being able to recover any damage it takes back up, while also being able to trick an assault vest onto any stall or perish song users
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Before getting deeper in the metagame, going to give my impression from a general point of view. In each metagame, standard threats arise but get better when the metagame settles up, I'm just going to state some stuff that seems great.

Focus Sash: Not stated in post #2, so I'll take a guess and say it is not banned. One of the items that will be popular, it could effectively be run by Spore/Imprison users alongside of King's Shield to stop priorities such as Fake Out and stuff.

Perish Song: The issue is on again! After being banned from 1v1, It is back for some revenge in Hackmons 1v1. The latter is more broken in this metagame thanks for the easy access by bulky threats such as Giratina, Lugia. Is your opponent slower? Worry not! Trick Room is here to save the day. The only thing that changed is the fact that HO is more viable here thanks to Huge Power and Adaptability being accessible and the viability of Soundproof.

Soundproof: Not a lot to say about it, can be paired with offensive and bulky threat to take down the omnipresence of Chatter, Boomburst and Perish Song.

Prankster: Here we go again, with the Protect/Disable annoyance choice items will be seen less here. Adding to that the combo of: Spore+Imprison+Transform which should be looked up in the future, bypassing spore with safety goggles is easy but you can't bypass Dark Void unless you're Magic Bounce which should be an interesting ability helping stall teams against these kinds of tactics.

I'll add more when I get to actually play this, I'll share sets when I discover effective ones~
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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Moderator
Ya Perish Song is extremely broken in 1v1 Hackmons. Think it deserves the boot...

Here is the set I am abusing currently:



Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Spore
- King's Shield

This set is pretty stupid. Soundproof blocks PS, and just spam Protect and try to be lucky. Spore is there to help stall turns and setup PS. Shuckle is a great abuser thanks to it's godly 230 Defenses coupled with it's abysmal 5 Speed, it's very easy to abuse.
 
Ya Perish Song is extremely broken in 1v1 Hackmons. Think it deserves the boot...

Here is the set I am abusing currently:



Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Spore
- King's Shield

This set is pretty stupid. Soundproof blocks PS, and just spam Protect and try to be lucky. Spore is there to help stall turns and setup PS. Shuckle is a great abuser thanks to it's godly 230 Defenses coupled with it's abysmal 5 Speed, it's very easy to abuse.
Why are you running Shuckle if it's Soundproof? It's already immune to Perish song, and therefore does not need to outslow the opponent. Also, at the very least run Spiky Shield over Protect, as iirc it directly outlasses it. However, you might want to consider another move like Disable in place of one of those protection moves, as they have highly overlapping roles.
 

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