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I see nothing that could be viable with imprisonment + anything other than transform. Could you give an example? I see no reason to make a ban more complex than it needs to be, when imprisonment alone isn't much imo.
The possibilities are endless, this is a new meta and you really can't say that you don't foresee anything with Imprison being viable. Examples: Imprison + Spore, Imprison + Taunt. What you should be focusing on is if you can prove that Imprison by itself should be banned, and I have not seen a valid reason for that so far.
The possibilities are endless, this is a new meta and you really can't say that you don't foresee anything with Imprison being viable. Examples: Imprison + Spore, Imprison + Taunt. What you should be focusing on is if you can prove that Imprison by itself should be banned, and I have not seen a valid reason for that so far.
Imprisonment alone is not broken, correct. But if a complex ban of Imprisonment + Transform isn't possible then banning Imprisonment alone would be far better than leaving it as is now.
Imprison is a fantastic anti imposter option. with Choice Scarf you can imposter proof sets that would otherwise never stand a chance against the Imp. Credit to Flint for thinking of that use.
Imprison is a fantastic anti imposter option. with Choice Scarf you can imposter proof sets that would otherwise never stand a chance against the Imp. Credit to Flint for thinking of that use.
Where are dem eviolites? (I don't play H1v1 forgive my sins) and reducing the imposter match up to a 50-50 is the best some offense sets can do. It's better then straight losing.
Where are dem eviolites? (I don't play H1v1 forgive my sins) and reducing the imposter match up to a 50-50 is the best some offense sets can do. It's better then straight losing.
Most run Blissey for the higher hp and use of any item, such as Choice Scarf / Lum Berry / Safety Goggles. But yeah, eviolite should def get more use imo
What I said about Prankster is really similar to the concept of the Imprison+Perish Song suspect. Both of these tactics take advantage of Prankster which probably made me want to ban that in the first place.
I noticed these tactics are limiting the same style of play and banning both would fix a lot.
So Imprison is ban because it forces you to defeat the opponent as quickly as possible. It may not seem like an issue but Imprison comes in all shapes and forms. You could be able to defeat Mega Aggron but you may not be able to go through an Imprison Giratina. Plus most Imprison users run King's Shield which messes with most physical attackers. Some are even Imposter proof because they run Snatch.
Perish Song is not as common but is still just as bad. Just like Imprison it forces you to defeat your opponent quickly and are being run my a variety of pokemon. For example Pogre and defeat Perish Shuckle but can't defeat Perish Ferrothorn. Some may have an opposite problem if run Pdon for example. Sometimes Speed does not even matter since some users are simply immune to Perish Song. Even Impostering will not let you through
Perish Song.
Ban Imprison
Ban Perish Song
Also this means Prankster is off the hook for now.
Imprison+Transform is absolutely terrible, you literally need either
a) a magic bouncer/lum berry mon that can
- OHKO every bulky pokemon in the game (arceus, giratina, deoxys-d, registeel...)
- Use Taunt (you still lose to mental herb/magic coat which is like half of them lmao)
b) a faster imprison mon of your own
in order to at least have a 33% chance of winning against a team with one of these. Literally the definition of broken.
Perish Song is more debatable, I'm leaning towards ban but I'd rather take this one step at a time. Imprison + Transform HAS to go, perish song can probably wait for a while.
Ransei covered everything that should be said about Transprison and Perish Song but I'll add my two cents.
Transprison: This tactics guarantee a free win against 3/4 of the meta, it can be run by the pokemon stated by Ransei but the surprise factor is using it on others Pokemon, per instance transprison could be run by Ho-oh, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Rayquaza pulling a surprise factor, unlike regular 1v1 you don't know which pokemon can abuse it, it's basically prankster sleep then transprison, easier than counting to 3. That method force running Taunt which can be destroyed by Magic Bounce Transprison users. Lum berry is a good answer but again you don't know if it kills the Transprison user, if it doesn't you have to gamble on one turn sleep. NO Prankster+Transprison isn't the ban were aiming at, transprison can still be ran effectively without the use of prankster; see magic bounce. NO Imprison isn't broken alone; Imprison is a great move to use outside of transprison, it is a way to soft check a lot of moves that could trouble your team. NO transform isn't broken; well we all know that lmao. TL;DR: NO to Imprison ban, YES to complex ban Transform+Imprison.
Perish Song: When will the demons stop singing, damnit. This point was covered perfectly by everyone above me, we all agree it's more broken that it was in regular 1v1 for simple reasons; the Perish song user varies unlike reg 1v1 where we had 2-3 prominent users, lot of Pokemon can run Perish song in H1v1 perfectly, such as Shuckle, Dialga, Lugia to not forget fast users that can pull trick room such as Deoxys S, Mega Rayquaza, Kyogre Primal, adding to that the possibility of running Prankster, Magic Bounce, Soundproof or Mold breaker which are terrifying abilities to run alongside perish song, also the usage of spore/dark void helps into an easier live.
TL;DR: BAN perish song please kthx
Imprison+Transform is absolutely terrible, you literally need either
a) a magic bouncer/lum berry mon that can
- OHKO every bulky pokemon in the game (arceus, giratina, deoxys-d, registeel...)
- Use Taunt (you still lose to mental herb/magic coat which is like half of them lmao)
b) a faster imprison mon of your own
in order to at least have a 33% chance of winning against a team with one of these. Literally the definition of broken.
Perish Song is more debatable, I'm leaning towards ban but I'd rather take this one step at a time. Imprison + Transform HAS to go, perish song can probably wait for a while.
Hii I'd like to say that I do aggree with banning the two of these, but for some purpose, I'd like to say that Encore stops LOADS of stall, and coupled with Magic Bounce/Magic Coat, it can entirely shut lots of it down. Coupled with ways to two turn ko, it can be quite successful.
Imprison suspect for ban! Or even just make it incompatible with Transform Yes or no?
Ok so, many people have been laddering, and I (not the only one) have been noticing the many Imprison users and how it limits the meta. To my personal opinion, I think there should be an Imprison suspect or at least should be banned or incompatible with Transform. This is because any Pokemon can use Imprison and Transform and there are almost no ways of stopping them. What Imprisoners usually do is use Imprison and Transform, leaving usually 0-2 turns to actually do something to stop them. Some are fast Pranksters that use Spore/Dark Void and then use Imprison and Transform. Some just use a lot of bulk to take advantage by using Imprison and Transform, and others are just completely random Pokemon that use Imprison and Transform and all 3 kinds tear so many teams to shreds.
Deoxys-Speed is one of the biggest abusers of Imprison because it's the fastest Pokemon and it can use its Prankster technique to use Spore or in some cases Dark Void. Most Pokemon don't wake up one or even two turns after, so Deoxys can freely use Imprison and Transform. Once it does that, the battle is over unless the opponent gets really lucky. In some cases, the opponent just forfeits not even knowing if struggle has enough power to win this.
Bulky Imprisoners
Lugia/Giratina/Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster/Magic Bounce/Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt/King's Shield/Spiky Shield
- Imprison
- Transform
- Dark Void/Spore
I'm putting these 3 Pokemon together because they are really bulky and hard to KO leaving them to a big advantage. These Pokemon are also very common abusers of Imprison because of that this. These Pokemon are basically almost unstoppable due to their bulk and abilities to use Imprison. Pranktser is for priority to go first in battle most of the time, and if that doesn't work, there's Lum Berry. Magic Bounce is for Pokemon that use Spore and Dark Void. They can bounce it back and use Imprison so the Pokemon can't use them. Soundproof is just in case the opponent has Lum Berry and decides to randomly use Perish Song which is another thing I will discuss in this post.
I'm keeping this one by itself because Gengar-Mega is something different in this situation. Magic Bounce Gengar plots an unexpected twist because the opponent would usually think it's Normalize, but wait, it's not! It's a sneaky Imprisoner used to counter the Pokemon that tend to use Spore and Dark Void, going straight for the Imprison.
Just plain random Imprison users (Does not include Missingno)
Although most random Imprison users can be beaten by some of the other ones I put above on this list, random Imprison users still limits the opponent to have 0-2 turns to do something no matter what they try to do. Most of them will try to put your Pokemon to sleep or they would just use Imprison and Transform hoping that they wouldn't get KOed. Basically anything can randomly use Imprison and Transform, and it just limits the metagame to only a few Pokemon that may be able to stop it including other Imprison users.
Perish Song suspect for ban! Yes or No?
Now since, Imprison is out of the way in discussion on this post, let's move to Perish Song!
Perish Song to be honest, In my opinion it has less problems than Imprison, but still should be banned as to what a lot of its community folks say. Perish Song is a move that is basically the bane of 1v1's existence. It apparently is also a bane to Hackmons 1v1 as well. Although this can be countered by Soundproof (ex:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hackmons1v1-267308807), Soundproof is the only ability that can actively beat it and it is still a problem to the metagame as it also limits usage in the meta. It gives the Pokemon only 3 turns to do anything and along with that, they lose the battle if they are faster than the opponent.
Here are some big abusers of this. The biggest abusers are actually usually the same as the Imprison users in a way because they perform a sequence of stall as well to be able to win.
The bolded parenthesis below are for Trick Room Perish Song users!
Ah yes, Deoxys-Speed, The very least Pokemon you would expect to run Perish Song and win. Perish Song Deoxys-Speed is tricky to go against. Trick Room Deoxys-Speed will hurt your chances of winning by an awful lot. The best way to beat this is to basically use Soundproof Pokemon with Safety Goggles like that Dialga in the replay link above.
Dialga @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Doom Desire
- Tail Glow
- Substitute
- Spacial Rend
Bulky Perish Song users are commonly abused because they use their bulk as an advantage to win using Perish Song. These Perish Song users are usually extremely hard to KO as they also got King's Shield to lower the opponent's attack as well as having a likely chance of having a high Special Defense nature and max Special Defense EVs.
Really Slow Perish Song users
Shuckle/Marowak/Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball/Custap Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Contrary/Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore/Dark Void/Copycat
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute/Recover
- Curse/Dig/Dive/Trick Room (to override the opponent's Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Perish Song users that are really slow do not really need Trick Room. They are just Perish Song users that use Perish Song and stall their way through victory mostly by spamming Prankster Substitute or Custasp berry Dig/Dive with Prankster Copycat. There are other options though. These guys can also use Sturdy and the Custasp Dig and they can run Soundproof to surprise other Perish Song users and win. Contrary one other option because you can raise your Defense and Special Defense while lowering speed and like I said before, The slower Pokemon wins the battle. These guys are just the most common Perish Song users you would expect to be used. These Pokemon also have many options for moves that they can use because they provide many different strategies using these common slow Perish Song users.
Transform + Imprison is the major problem, that shouldn't even be questioned if it's banworthy as it's strait up uncompetitive and overcentralizing. Ban Transform + Imprison on same set.
Perish Song has a tad more counterplay, but still is overbearing considering Prankster + Spore really pushes PS over the edge imo. A little more questionable, but still leaning towards a Ban of Persish Song.
I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but here is my take on this:
Imprison+transform can be an annoying set and I agree with that, but I do not think that it is completely ban worthy. With the huge power creep, it is pretty easy to 2HKO many of the common bulk mons by running offense. Yes, there is sash, but there is also Pbond and priority revenge kill moves such as espeed. Another common problem associated with Imprisonform is prankster sleep. Again, there are still a decent amount of counters to that: Lum Berry, Safety Goggles, Magic Bounce, Magic Coat. Another problem someone else mentioned was King's Shield that supposedly shuts down physical attackers. I think that in general, if you're running a physical attacker weak to King's Shield, in a meta where everything gets KS, it's not going to be good. Non-contact moves and protection breaking moves are an option. I actually like how imprisonform sets can be imposter-proofed with Snatch, which eliminates uncompetitive 50/50s. Another reason that was mentioned was over-centralization. There are ways to beat imprisonform without pure offense. Taunt, faster sleep moves, faster imprison, faster encore, trick/switcheroo w/ choice(must be faster)/av, Substitute (its a pretty decent move imo, but is a bit underused,) curse (w/out spikyshield or atks,) Psong (i'll get to this later.) Another strong argument against imprisonform was the surprise factor. In a meta where there are an almost unlimited amount of combinations, there's nothing you can do about it besides scouting ur opponent. This is a meta where it is very difficult to blanket check sets. Imprison+Transform is not uncompetitive and does not need to be banned.
I think that Perish Song is a problem. Soundproof allows you to set a 3-turn timer on your opponent which results in an almost 100% chance victory if you aren't 2HKO'ed. Again, you can run lum/mental/mcoat but if your opponent mis-predicts and cannot OHKO it becomes an insta-win. There are not enough checks/counters to Psong. The only ways are taunt/sleep (requires skilled predict,) running your own Soundproof (not useful for much other than countering/setting Psong,) using skillswap/roleplay (only if opponent is soundproof,) TrickRoom (if your opponent is not soundproof,) or running offense. This makes Psong very centralizing. Psong also tends to be very uncompetitive. Since Psong sets up a death timer based on Speed, 50/50 ties become common due to Imposter/Transform, which is also why Soundproof is now more common. Another problem is protective moves. Yes, protection can be broken, but endure is always still an option. With the way protecting moves work, offensive strategies can come down to 50/50 coin flips or even 12.5/87.5 rolls which are annoying. With recovery/support as an option, it becomes a game of predicting and getting coin flips. Perish Song is uncompetitive and should be banned.
I hope that this may have changed some of your minds, or at least made you understand my perspective.
My main issue, and what I think makes Imprisonform so broken, is how versatile it is, and how easy it is to simply change a move or ability if you've lost to someone's counter before. If they resist Extreme Speed (or have it as a move to prevent being picked off by it after Imprison) or are faster than Gale Wings priority, you can only hope that 1. Your mon isn't able to hit itself very hard, and 2. Your mon is able to hit hard enough with struggle to KO the opponent before you faint to recoil. Even potential checks such as Taunt, Encore, etc. are useless if the Imprisoner has those moves on its set, or is a Magic Bounce user. Expecting every single mon to run Snatch just to potentially screw over an Imprison user (and to be reliable you'd want to hope they don't put you to sleep with Spore or Dark Void first) is overcentralising.
Yes, it's difficult to blanket-check things in H1v1, but when Imprisonform can be run on any obscure mon to basically ensure a win after using 2 moves, I think it's safe to say it's uncompetitive. In my opinion, the combination is extremely similar to Perish Song. Yeah, you can check it. You can even check both using the same set if you're creative enough. And then your opponent sends out an offensive mon and you lose anyway, because that entire team slot is dedicated to dealing with two broken strategies. Yeah, such is the nature of 1v1, but needing to run moves that otherwise have little to no competitive use (Snatch) just to be able to stand a chance is unfair to everyone.
Ban Imprison+Transform on the same set.
Ban Perish Song.
I realized that there are multiple Shedinja sets. Sturdy with Magic Coat or Magic Guard with Focus Sash. The only way to truly defeat it 100% of the time is Mold Breaker. Fake Out can also help determine what set it is. Shedinja is easy to defeat if you predict what set it has correctly though.
I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but here is my take on this:
Imprison+transform can be an annoying set and I agree with that, but I do not think that it is completely ban worthy. With the huge power creep, it is pretty easy to 2HKO many of the common bulk mons by running offense. Yes, there is sash, but there is also Pbond and priority revenge kill moves such as espeed. Another common problem associated with Imprisonform is prankster sleep. Again, there are still a decent amount of counters to that: Lum Berry, Safety Goggles, Magic Bounce, Magic Coat. Another problem someone else mentioned was King's Shield that supposedly shuts down physical attackers. I think that in general, if you're running a physical attacker weak to King's Shield, in a meta where everything gets KS, it's not going to be good. Non-contact moves and protection breaking moves are an option. I actually like how imprisonform sets can be imposter-proofed with Snatch, which eliminates uncompetitive 50/50s. Another reason that was mentioned was over-centralization. There are ways to beat imprisonform without pure offense. Taunt, faster sleep moves, faster imprison, faster encore, trick/switcheroo w/ choice(must be faster)/av, Substitute (its a pretty decent move imo, but is a bit underused,) curse (w/out spikyshield or atks,) Psong (i'll get to this later.) Another strong argument against imprisonform was the surprise factor. In a meta where there are an almost unlimited amount of combinations, there's nothing you can do about it besides scouting ur opponent. This is a meta where it is very difficult to blanket check sets. Imprison+Transform is not uncompetitive and does not need to be banned.
I think that Perish Song is a problem. Soundproof allows you to set a 3-turn timer on your opponent which results in an almost 100% chance victory if you aren't 2HKO'ed. Again, you can run lum/mental/mcoat but if your opponent mis-predicts and cannot OHKO it becomes an insta-win. There are not enough checks/counters to Psong. The only ways are taunt/sleep (requires skilled predict,) running your own Soundproof (not useful for much other than countering/setting Psong,) using skillswap/roleplay (only if opponent is soundproof,) TrickRoom (if your opponent is not soundproof,) or running offense. This makes Psong very centralizing. Psong also tends to be very uncompetitive. Since Psong sets up a death timer based on Speed, 50/50 ties become common due to Imposter/Transform, which is also why Soundproof is now more common. Another problem is protective moves. Yes, protection can be broken, but endure is always still an option. With the way protecting moves work, offensive strategies can come down to 50/50 coin flips or even 12.5/87.5 rolls which are annoying. With recovery/support as an option, it becomes a game of predicting and getting coin flips. Perish Song is uncompetitive and should be banned.
I hope that this may have changed some of your minds, or at least made you understand my perspective.
Regarding Imprison + Transform, I think it's extremely uncompetitive. This is 1v1, and allowing a strat that's mainly counterplayed by switching is something that I'm against. In regular 1v1 the only poke that can use this is Smeargle, a poke that can easily be killed, sometimes even by struggle. Some might already consider this as a detrimental existence that shouldn't be allowed in regular 1v1, but at least it's alleviated by the fact that only 1 poke can use it, and a weak poke at that.
And all those ways you mentioned to beat ImprisonForm with can easily be played around by the ImprisonForm user. Prankster, faster taunt/spore/dark void, Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Substitute, and Magic Guard are all ways to deal with the ways you mentioned.
You mention the power creep, and that is also an issue. Huge Power is something that should be banned in my opinion, because it has overcentralized the meta. There are so many interesting sets and pokes that would be viable, but because of Huge Power, you are forced to either use the bulkiest of the bulkiest and hope you don't get annihilated, or try to fight fire with fire (kill them before they kill you). Parental Bond is also an ability that contributes to this state, especially since special attackers can use it as well.
There is a reason why Huge Power and Parental Bond are banned in Balanced Hackmons, and I don't see any difference about the 1v1 format that doesn't make them broken here.
While the meta in question is called "Hackmons 1v1", some things have been banned, and that means that there has been effort to make it more balanced.
I say let's follow through and make it balanced, since it's very broken in it's current state, which is a shame since there are so many interesting things to be used if the meta wasn't in this broken state.
I realized that there are multiple Shedinja sets. Sturdy with Magic Coat or Magic Guard with Focus Sash. The only way to truly defeat it 100% of the time is Mold Breaker. Fake Out can also help determine what set it is. Shedinja is easy to defeat if you predict what set it has correctly though.
Can't kill it with weather, partial trapping, Spiky Shield, bouncing status with Magic Coat/Bounce, damage-only or status-only moves. Basically, to break through it directly you need Mold Breaker or moves like Steam Eruption. It thrives off the fact that most mons only have 1 way to break past the standard Sheddy's and this set can scout for their method and shut it down fairly reliably.
He has magic coat for leech seed spam (as per the replay) which made me think it was moot, but I never knew infestation was rapid spinnable so that's pretty cool. However, what does this set have for a magic guard mon, especially with leftovers? Also why not invest 252 252 in atk and spa? Waste of EVs imo, not that it will always make a difference.
The great thing about shedinja though with team preview is that you know right away you need to use a mon to beat shedinja. My suggestion for beating most shedinjas? Spiky Shield or Substitute rather than a random leech seed. I feel like Leech Seed will do less in most matchups than Spiky Shield or substitute. Just a thought, especially with sets like magic coat/rapid spin around (even the rare magic guard)
