Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

I think people are significantly misunderstanding Rumplestiltskin's point. I'm on my phone so this may have terrible formatting but w/e
Lets compare Trick Choice with Perish Song. The justification for the banning of Perish Song is that it destroyed an entire team archetype (stall). So does Trick Choice. The difference between the two is that Perish Song is annoying to deal with on teams besides stall, but that is beside the point. My personal opinion is that people who supported the Perish Song ban and do not support a Trick Choice restriction did not vote to ban Perish Song to defend stall like they claim. Yes, Trick Choice has counters on stall, such as Protect Disable Banette. However, just like Soundproof in the Perish Song discussion, it is 100% dead weight against non-Choice pokemon. (Megas do not necessarily beat Trick Choice because the Pokemon in question might die to coverage moves that the Choice user runs). I personally do not run complete stall so this decision does not affect me directly, but I believe that in order to have a balanced metagame, most if not all playstyles should be usable. People keep saying that Trick Choice is really easy to beat, but besides the aforementioned Banette set, there are no reliable answers on stall. I think that this is overcentralizing and must be suspected.

Edited to finish last sentence, for some reason it posted without it
Edit 2: there are no reliable answers on stall
 
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dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
I think people are significantly misunderstanding Rumplestiltskin's point. I'm on my phone so this may have terrible formatting but w/e
Lets compare Trick Choice with Perish Song. The justification for the banning of Perish Song is that it destroyed an entire team archetype (stall). So does Trick Choice. The difference between the two is that Perish Song is annoying to deal with on teams besides stall, but that is beside the point. My personal opinion is that people who supported the Perish Song ban and do not support a Trick Choice restriction did not vote to ban Perish Song to defend stall like they claim. Yes, Trick Choice has counters on stall, such as Protect Disable Banette. However, just like Soundproof in the Perish Song discussion, it is 100% dead weight against non-Choice pokemon. (Megas do not necessarily beat Trick Choice because the Pokemon in question might die to coverage moves that the Choice user runs). I personally do not run complete stall so this decision does not affect me directly, but I believe that in order to have a balanced metagame, most if not all playstyles should be usable. People keep saying that Trick Choice is really easy to beat, but besides the aforementioned Banette set, there are no reliable answers. I think that this is overcentral
After reading this and using a team of 3 trick choice users on ladder, I can see what you mean. But I don't think it deserves a ban or a suspect because it keeps the game balanced by checking some threats which would be hard to beat otherwise, like chansey or p2, or another bulky mon like that. Without trick choice these mons would run rampant with checks being super effective stab users, and nothing else.
 
After reading this and using a team of 3 trick choice users on ladder, I can see what you mean. But I don't think it deserves a ban or a suspect because it keeps the game balanced by checking some threats which would be hard to beat otherwise, like chansey or p2, or another bulky mon like that. Without trick choice these mons would run rampant with checks being super effective stab users, and nothing else.
There are plenty of ways of dealing with Porygon2 and Chansey outside of Trick Choice users, such as Sub + Setup. I guarantee that Chansey and Porygon2 lose to Sub SD/DD/Belly Drum Char-X, and non-Charm Chansey (as well as P2) loses to SD Mawile. If you're having issues with bulky Pokemon that tank hits and Recover, just run Taunt (which, unlike Trick Choice, does not beat all stall so it's still balanced).
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
There are plenty of ways of dealing with Porygon2 and Chansey outside of Trick Choice users, such as Sub + Setup. I guarantee that Chansey and Porygon2 lose to Sub SD/DD/Belly Drum Char-X, and non-Charm Chansey (as well as P2) loses to SD Mawile. If you're having issues with bulky Pokemon that tank hits and Recover, just run Taunt (which, unlike Trick Choice, does not beat all stall so it's still balanced).
Ok after further testing, I finally agree. This time I used full stall (ish) it's not as good as Karl's but Eh it's decent. Trick choice ruins stall, because even megas get damaged by their attacks enough to die in 2hkoes. Trick choice deserves at least a suspect, not a straight ban though.
 
I was thinking about the possible viability of the Chilan Berry to stop threats such as Porygon-Z and Meloetta (and kyuremblack beats greninja anyways). Your thoughts?
Example set:

Kyurem Black @ Chilan Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: Filler EVs, perhaps allow it to beat Charizard X and scarf kyuremblacks or whatevers...
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Whatever set you like to run
- can kyurem get icy wind/rock tomb to lower spe on charizards and such? o-o
- Splash

Chilan Berry should allow it to take hits from P-Z and Meloetta now... imagine that on any poke o-o
 

DEG

Nyaaaa~
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

1v1 Pokemon Archetype

Don't know which Pokemon to pick based on what you need? Do you need an offensive Pokemon or are you oriented to a more passive Pokemon? Do you want to know what are the common sets of a specific Pokemon? Do you want to know what's your team weakness so you can patch it? That's the post made for you, I'm going to cover most of the things you need to know before you go on your 1v1 journey or if you want to learn more about the metagame.

Index:





Part I: Offensive Archetype.


Art by NightCrystalDragon on Deviantart.

The post will be cut into different parts, each archetype is going to fit in a different part. Part I will hover over important points to know while using offensive oriented Pokemon, this section will be divided into two divisions covering firstly Physically Offensive Pokemon and secondly Specially Offensive Pokemon.

Week 1- Physically Offensive Pokemon

*In no particular order.

Kyurem-Black


Good team mates:


Kyurem-Black has proved itself being one of the most outrageous threat in the 1v1 metagame, all thanks to it's amazing performance. As shown by it's incredible stats of 125/170/100/120/90/95 Kyurem-Black becomes unpredictable, it own a plethora of movesets which each have different checks and counters. I'm going to highlight over it's most common movesets.

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head/Earth Power
- Ice Beam​

Most popular Kyurem-Black set being able to capitalize on popular Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame yet falls prey to defensive oriented Pokemon.

*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X (Bulky Variant)
Mega Charizard X (Standard Offensive)
Mega Charizard Y (Bulky Variant)

Mega Charizard Y (Standard Offensive)
Mega Gyarados (Bulky)
Kyurem-Black (Speed ties, Bulky Variant, Haban Berry)
Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite

Gardevoir Mega (If Kyub doesn't have Iron Head)
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ

Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp (Scarf Variant)
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense
Greninja


Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge

More offensive inclined variant that can take on bulky threats better.
*Counters
*Checks Depends on Moveset
Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados

Kyurem-Black Speed ties, Scarf

Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash

Dragonite Scarf Variant
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega

Deoxys-Defense
Greninja

Kyurem-Black @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Outrage
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Roost

It's probably time to share my baby, Weakness Policy Kyub. This pokemon can beat a lot of Pokemon that the previout sets lose to.​
*Counters
*Checks Depends on Moveset
Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados

Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite Band Variant
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ Specs variant
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp Band Variant
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega

Deoxys-Defense

Greninja


Charizard-Mega-X


Good team mates:


Another dragon type entering the show with an amazing typing letting it take on common pokemon in this metagame. It consists of an offensive set being able to go on a rampage on this metagame's various threats being offensive or defensive.

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Substitute


*Counters
*Checks Depends on Moveset

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados Bulky
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense
Greninja
Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios

Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur



Mawile Mega


Good team mates:


Introducing a monstrous threat in the metagame, thanks to it's typing giving it a solid defensive backbone combined with it's ability in Huge Power and attacking stats, this Pokemon finds itself sponging hits and counter attacking for domination.

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head/Fire Fang

*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile (Speed Ties)
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp

Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense

Greninja
Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios
Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur


Salamence Mega

Good team mates:


ORAS has introduced to us another threat in the 1v1 metagame, it's ability pre-mega evolution Intimidate allows it to set up on most physical attackers, after Mega-Evolving it is equipped with an incredible ability in Aerilate boosting normal moves by 1.3x an changing their types to flying which allows Mega Salamence to be on the dominating side with scary STABS in Giga Impact and Outrage.

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Outrage
- Giga Impact


*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp

Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense

Greninja
Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios
Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur



Gyarados Mega

Good team mates:


Thanks to it's pre-evolution ability in Intimidate and it's typing, Gyarados-Mega finds many set up opportunities while having the movepool allowing it to hit effectively the dominant fraction in 1v1 combined with it's ability in Mold Breaker, it let's it get past Sturdy and Lvl.1 Pokemon.

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 96 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Crunch


*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y

Mega Gyarados
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile

Mega Salamence

Aegislash
Dragonite
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense

Greninja
Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios
Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur


Dragonite


Good team mates:


Mainly equipped with a Choice Band, Dragonite find itself taking on threats easily combined with Multiscale it's amazing ability letting it survive a hit and counter attacking effectively.

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
-Extreme Speed
- Iron Head/Fire Punch/Aqua Tail

*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y

Mega Gyarados
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile

Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense
Greninja

Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios
Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur


Rhyperior



Good team mates:


Due to it's typing, Rhyperior finds itself fitting on most teams seeking for a Steel or Fire removal, but in it's turn it requires a lot of support as it is vulnerable to common attacks.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Avalanche​

*Counters
*Checks (Depends on Moveset)

Chansey
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gyarados
Kyurem-Black
Mega Mawile
Mega Salamence
Aegislash
Dragonite (With Aqua tail)
Gardevoir Mega
Meloetta
Porygon2
PorygonZ
Rhyperior
Slowbro Mega
Togekiss
Garchomp
Whimsicott
Metagross Mega
Deoxys-Defense
Greninja

Aggron Mega
Altaria Mega
Golem
Jirachi
Latios
Lucario Mega
Smeargle
Mega Sableye
Magnezone
Mega Venusaur


Thanks for dusk raimon Uselesscrab Articuno I and Rumplestiltskin going over this post and patching some stuff.
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Something that has been brought up a few times in the current and past discussions is ”Rock – Paper – Scissors” and the team preview aspect.

Team preview was added to 1v1 01-July-14 after some brief discussion in this thread after the consensus in here was that it had no downsides. I didn't get my chance to voice my opinion back then because I didn't have a Smogon account, but I'd like to do it now as someone who has played on the 1v1 ladder successfully during gen 5, and gen 6 before the team preview addition, and with a lot of experience and frustration of playing on the team preview 1v1 ladder.

What I want to bring forward here is that team preview has a negative impact on the 1v1 ladder, and should be removed. I've actually wanted to make a post about this for a long time now, but I was new to Smogon forums, wasn't sure where to post about this, and later on didn't want this to interfere with the perish song discussion and the TrickChoice discussion, but it has come to the point that this can't wait anymore, and I'm not the only one who has this opinion.

An argument I've seen against removing team preview is that “it was luck based and match-up based anyway, whats the difference?”.
Well, yeah, it was match-up based, that's what 1v1 is, but it wasn't as luck based as you might think.
Before team preview, 1v1 was about trying to find the pokemon that could get the most wins against the current ladder. You play a few games, you notice trends if you're good, and you adjust your pick accordingly and climb on the ladder if the pick was good. It was never about winning every game, it was about getting more wins than losses against the current ladder.
With team preview and 3 pokes in a “team”, adjusting your pick to beat the current ladder is no longer possible, because if the opposing team is good it can't be beaten by a single poke. And good luck finding a poke that can beat 3 very different pokes single handedly.

Before team preview some players would use very strong, but also very counterable pokes on the ladder, and those players would lose every other game if they used such a poke. Now with team preview those same people could just put 2 more of those very strong but very counterable pokes in a “team” to cover each others weaknesses and play the Rock – Paper – Scissors game or the 50/50 game instead.
Meanwhile smart players would use versatile pokes that might not be maxed out in a certain area but do get a higher win-rate in general against what's currently on the ladder. The conclusion we can make from this is that team preview punishes skillful players, and rewards players who weren't trying.

I've seen the argument made that team preview promotes mind games and that it's a positive thing. The mind games we are talking about here are Rock – Paper – Scissors and 50/50. Rock – Paper – Scissors is a game of luck and looking at the wikipedia page for it just confirms it, “Skills required: Luck”, and “Strategies: It is impossible to gain an advantage over a truly random opponent.”. And I shouldn't have to explain why 50/50, high random chance, and luck are bad things for a competitive metagame should I?

While 1v1 was defined by how good your poke was against the current meta back then, it is now defined by the team preview aspect, which against a good team is just a Rock – Paper – Scissors or a 50/50 at best. You enter a game and the outcome is decided at team preview many times.
Before team preview it was match-up based, and you lost a percentage of your games in the ladder, but that percentage was up to how good you are at laddering. On top of being able of noticing trends, a good player could pick a counter poke to his current opponent after his next ladder game if there aren't many players on the ladder at that time, and he would very likely run into the opponent he intended the counter for.
Now, with team preview you could literally lose 10 games in a row because you made the wrong pick in the Rock – Paper – Scissors or 50/50 game. In conclusion, 1v1 is a very ladder centered metagame.

Looking at the users who were part of the discussion at the time this change was suggested and not noticing many ladderers from the time makes me suspect that their frustration came from playing 1v1 tournaments in the Other Metas chat room for example.
Indeed, going into a tournament match and losing instantly because of the match-up is frustrating. And team preview can alleviate that a little bit because you are given some control over what the match-up might be. Another reason why team preview is better for tournaments is because most of the time you don't know the players in the tour, and you don't know if there are certain trends you can adjust your pick to, and you don't know their elo range, because on the ladder you can adjust your pick to the elo range you're playing on and be more successful.

Now as a solution I suggest removing the team preview for the ladder only, and keeping team preview for the challenges and tournaments on the simulator.
This way we actually reduce and remove a lot of the luck involved with 1v1 from the ladder while keeping our solution (team preview) for the frustrated tournament players.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
"Before team preview some players would use very strong, but also very counterable pokes on the ladder, and those players would lose every other game if they used such a poke. Now with team preview those same people could just put 2 more of those very strong but very counterable pokes in a “team” to cover each others weaknesses and play the Rock – Paper – Scissors game or the 50/50 game instead.
Meanwhile smart players would use versatile pokes that might not be maxed out in a certain area but do get a higher win-rate in general against what's currently on the ladder. The conclusion we can make from this is that team preview punishes skillful players, and rewards players who weren't trying."
You can't say an outdated argument is what "skillful" players use. Smart players adapt to the 3v3 teambuilding world and build for that. Both worlds are bad - one is pure luck, what you queue in to, and the other is self influenced luck - you choose which one of the three you think is best using mindgames. I like the current system more because it stops counter teaming, which is an incredibly non interactive part of the game, and instead rewards predictions.
I rarely play 1v1, and I'm just being the devil's advocate here, but we should discuss this instead of being in a mob like the whole ban trick choice debacle.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
You can't say an outdated argument is what "skillful" players use. Smart players adapt to the 3v3 teambuilding world and build for that. Both worlds are bad - one is pure luck, what you queue in to, and the other is self influenced luck - you choose which one of the three you think is best using mindgames. I like the current system more because it stops counter teaming, which is an incredibly non interactive part of the game, and instead rewards predictions.
I rarely play 1v1, and I'm just being the devil's advocate here, but we should discuss this instead of being in a mob like the whole ban trick choice debacle.
The luck part without team preview would be on the very first game going into the ladder while not having any clue of what's currently trending. Adjusting your pick according to the ladder so that your poke wins say 2/3 of all match-ups is better than being forced into a game of Rock – Paper – Scissors or 50/50 against every decent team.
And regarding "counter teaming", that's what 1v1 is about, you're supposed to pick what you think beats the opponents. And that is no longer possible against good teams, unless you can come up with different 1v1 pokes that can beat different entire 3-poke squads individually single-handedly, and good teams just don't have that vulnerability.

I'll give you a scenario regarding the rewarding bad players statement. Imagine someone who likes to use ferrothorn for laddering, and would rather just use ferrothorn. Laddering with ferrothorn in 1v1 without team preview would be a very bad idea considering the abundance of fire attackers in the meta, and would result in instalosses many times. Now with team preview, that player can now put pokes in his "team" that beat ferothorns's counters, and hopes to win the Rock – Paper – Scissors or 50/50. Without team preview he might have gotten an overall 30% winrate with that ferrothorn, while with team preview he could have such luck that he got a 100% winrate with that team.

Conversly, imagine a player using a versatile poke in the 1v1 ladder without team preview, and getting a 70% winrate overall, while with team preview he could have such luck that he lost all his games, netting him a 0% winrate, regardless of how good his team was.

You're talking about enjoying mindgames and predictions, but the games are undeniably turning into Rock – Paper – Scissors and 50/50's, and that is not a desirable trait for a competitive metagame.
You're assuming that if in team preview after some thinking and considering, you make your pick, and your opponent made his pick, and you got the better match-up, it means that you have outsmarted him, predicted exactly what he would do, and deserve the win?
What if he did the same thinking, came to the same conclusion, and then expected that you also thought of him coming to that conclusion and picked accordingly, so that he picks according to that? Does it really mean that you outsmarted him then?
We can delve deeper into this type of thinking and predicting, but it just becomes an endless loop, and in the end it's just as what the wikipedia article has to say, "It is impossible to gain an advantage over a truly random opponent.", which is picking randomly.
 
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I personally never experienced the old 1v1, however I do believe bringing it back would positively affect the meta.

The argument that was stated for introducing 3v3 team preview was to cut down on the luck, by sending out whatever pokemon you think would fair the best against all three of your opponent’s pokemon. While this is good on paper, in practice it is a lot harder to do so as most good teams are perfectly balanced and as such it is pretty hard if not impossible to find a pokemon that can counters all of your opponent’s team, which results in an upcoming unavoidable rock-paper-scissors scenario.

Another point is that 3v3 team preview doesn’t promote a diverse metagame. As Rumplestiltskin mentioned, because of how the most used pokemon of the meta have counters yet check each other, there is no problem in slapping in a typical Charizard – Kyurem – Mawile team, and ladder up high if you make the good predictions. Being forced to run just one pokemon, on the other hand, means you take a risk if you run a popular pick, because many people will carry a counter to it. This might force people to try to find new sets, and as such might revitalise the meta, which has been stagnant lately.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
As someone who experienced the ladder back before the 3v3 preview, I am firmly against the proposed change. When I played 1v1 before the preview, honestly most of the time it played out somewhat like it does with the 3v3 preview, only you have to predict who your opponent will be next time as well as what they will bring, rather than only having to predict which of three options your opponent will bring. The alternative to this was sniping, which is also unreliable. But at the end of the day, everyone had a number of different mons, and would periodically change between which one they would bring next depending on what their opponents had been bringing and who they thought the ladder would pair them up with next. This is not dissimilar to the current ladder, except for a few things, the more minor being that people are less likely to change their teams nowadays as it's perfectly possible to have a single team that can beat all 4 or so of the people also laddering at the same time as you, and you predict within the battles themselves rather than outside on the team selection.

The major difference, related to what I've been talking about, is that prior to the 3v3 preview the battling happens outside the battle itself. I would argue it's rare for prediction to be needed once mons have been chosen, and removing the pokemon selection from the battle itself means that what's actually going on is that the majority of the skill is involved with knowing how showdown works, and having a good internet connection in order to get matched at the time you want to get matched up, rather than prediction happening in the battles. If your internet lags, you get paired with someone else and you've brought the wrong team for that person, so you lose. If you reckon the ladder's going to pair you up with someone you're unlikely to beat you just wait a while before searching again and you pair up with someone you can beat instead. It's a game of pokemon, and it's skillful, but the skill's in the wrong place. There is a clear advantage in the hands of people with two things: Good internet connection, and a good knowledge of how the ladder system on showdown works.

I have two problems with the system I've just detailed. The first is that I believe the skill of a pokemon game should be first and foremost happening within the battle itself. Of course there will be some matchup problems, there always are and we can't escape that, and you can always snipe someone on the ladder. But there should at least be a large element of skill happening within the battle itself rather than the entire thing being determined outside of it. And secondly, I don't see a) internet connection or b) knowledge of showdown's inner workings as relevant in terms of how much elo you should recieve. If you gain elo for cteaming someone then fair enough, that's an element of pokemon, but a lot of the ranking was due to those other two factors before 3v3 preview, and that's not something that I think is a positive effect on a metagame.

Therefore, I am against removing 3v3 preview which I honestly think was the best thing ever to happen to the 1v1 metagame.
 
i talked about this a bit in the om room w/ adrian and rumplestiltskin, and i dont want to reiterate what i said, so ill just c+p the log here

[23:47:05] Mamp: this debate on team preview in the 1v1 thread is interesting
[23:48:02] Mamp: 1v1 with team preview is basically a completely different game to 1v1 without
[23:48:11] Mamp: they rly arent even comparable
[23:48:34] Mamp: they play very differently, require different skills
[23:48:36] Adrian Marin BH: Mhm
[23:48:43] Adrian Marin BH: I consider 1v1 to be a test, if you will
[23:48:54] Adrian Marin BH: It isn't meant to be rock paper scissors or reliable
[23:49:04] Mamp: ppl in the thread are trying to argue which one is better by comparing them through the lens of the other
[23:49:19] Adrian Marin BH: Isn't it purely philosophical?
[23:49:22] Mamp: ye
[23:49:46] Mamp: which one is better is a pointless debate really, it depends what kind of game you want to play
[23:50:18] Mamp: the real question is whether or not ps can/should support a ladder for both
[23:50:29] Adrian Marin BH: Maybe they should just be two completely different metas
[23:50:37] Mamp: thats what im thinkinh
[23:50:40] Adrian Marin BH: But one needs to gain the spotlight
[23:50:46] Adrian Marin BH: This isn't good for the community either
[23:50:59] Mamp: idk if theres enough 1v1 players to support 2 ladders
[23:52:15] Mamp: 1v1 w/o preview was a rly interesting meta, it was more about counterteaming the ladder than anything else
[23:52:32] Mamp: id like to see it back as an omotm at least
[23:52:36] Rumplestiltskin: let me put it this way, rock paper scissors has nothing to do with skill
[23:53:02] Sgt. Pimenta: 3v3?
[23:53:03] Mamp: i dont really think 1v1 w/ preview is rps tho
[23:53:03] Rumplestiltskin: and you are guaranteed rock paper scissors against good team with team preview
[23:53:31] Mamp: ill admit i have pretty limited experience w/ 1v1
[23:54:02] Mamp: but from what ive played, there was a lot of mindgames and prediction involved at team preview
[23:54:07] Adrian Marin BH: Rock Paper Scissors does take good prediction ofc
[23:54:12] Mamp: not to mention the skill in teambuilding
[23:54:14] Adrian Marin BH: Since it isn't purely rock paper scissors per se
[23:54:35] Mamp: but like i said, its a different type of game compared to 1v1 w/o preview
[23:54:46] Adrian Marin BH: Certain mons will have a better MU against certain teams in certain scenarios
[23:54:52] Rumplestiltskin: if not rovk paper scissors, its literally 50/50 at best
[23:55:21] Rumplestiltskin: yes, and if both players know that, its still 50/50
[23:55:56] Mamp: i really feel like theres more to it than a complete 50/50
[23:56:27] Mamp: the players that make it to the top of the ladder dont get there by chance
[23:56:55] Rumplestiltskin: example: 1 of my pokes has very good matchup against 2 of opponents pokes but loses to the 3rd, opponent "predicts" that i will pick that poke and picks the 3rd poke
[23:57:22] Rumplestiltskin: do u really think i didnt know that he could predict that?
[23:57:35] Adrian Marin BH: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about Rumple
[23:57:37] Rumplestiltskin: now he might think the same thing, that iw ill predict that
[23:57:45] Adrian Marin BH: It's only a 50/50 in high level of play
[23:57:47] Rumplestiltskin: see what im gettin at? its an endless loop
[23:57:49] Rumplestiltskin: its 50/50
[23:57:52] Adrian Marin BH: Beating the low ladder is easy through prediction
[23:58:07] Rumplestiltskin: thats literally what 50/50 is
[23:58:13] Adrian Marin BH: Still 50/50 nonetheless
[23:58:29] Rumplestiltskin: and thats not skill
[23:59:06] Mamp: if theres no skill invloved, then how do the same people consistently win?
[23:59:09] Rumplestiltskin: imagine this scenario happening every game, meaning u could lose 10 games in a row no matter how good or skilled u are
[00:00:03] Mamp: i think itd be interesting to have both ladders up for a month, just as a trial
[00:00:04] Adrian Marin BH: Because less skilled players are worse at predicting
[00:00:06] Rumplestiltskin: because not all teams are good, and some ppl dont know other's sets the first time around, etc
[00:00:10] Mamp: to see which people prefer
[00:00:12] Adrian Marin BH: Yeah that too
[00:00:13] Rumplestiltskin: that too


basically, i feel that 1v1 is such a different game with and w/o team preview that arguing which is a better metagame is akin to arguing whether soccer or baseball is the better sport; they really arent comparable, and it ultimately just comes down to what sort of game you want to play. i feel that the ideal solution is to have two ladders, one with team preview and one without, but i dont know if 1v1 has a large enough userbase for a schism like this, and in any case, dividing communities like that always just leads to petty infighting and drama. i would like to see old 1v1 come back as an omotm at least tho
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
As someone who experienced the ladder back before the 3v3 preview, I am firmly against the proposed change. When I played 1v1 before the preview, honestly most of the time it played out somewhat like it does with the 3v3 preview, only you have to predict who your opponent will be next time as well as what they will bring, rather than only having to predict which of three options your opponent will bring. The alternative to this was sniping, which is also unreliable. But at the end of the day, everyone had a number of different mons, and would periodically change between which one they would bring next depending on what their opponents had been bringing and who they thought the ladder would pair them up with next. This is not dissimilar to the current ladder, except for a few things, the more minor being that people are less likely to change their teams nowadays as it's perfectly possible to have a single team that can beat all 4 or so of the people also laddering at the same time as you, and you predict within the battles themselves rather than outside on the team selection.

The major difference, related to what I've been talking about, is that prior to the 3v3 preview the battling happens outside the battle itself. I would argue it's rare for prediction to be needed once mons have been chosen, and removing the pokemon selection from the battle itself means that what's actually going on is that the majority of the skill is involved with knowing how showdown works, and having a good internet connection in order to get matched at the time you want to get matched up, rather than prediction happening in the battles. If your internet lags, you get paired with someone else and you've brought the wrong team for that person, so you lose. If you reckon the ladder's going to pair you up with someone you're unlikely to beat you just wait a while before searching again and you pair up with someone you can beat instead. It's a game of pokemon, and it's skillful, but the skill's in the wrong place. There is a clear advantage in the hands of people with two things: Good internet connection, and a good knowledge of how the ladder system on showdown works.

I have two problems with the system I've just detailed. The first is that I believe the skill of a pokemon game should be first and foremost happening within the battle itself. Of course there will be some matchup problems, there always are and we can't escape that, and you can always snipe someone on the ladder. But there should at least be a large element of skill happening within the battle itself rather than the entire thing being determined outside of it. And secondly, I don't see a) internet connection or b) knowledge of showdown's inner workings as relevant in terms of how much elo you should recieve. If you gain elo for cteaming someone then fair enough, that's an element of pokemon, but a lot of the ranking was due to those other two factors before 3v3 preview, and that's not something that I think is a positive effect on a metagame.

Therefore, I am against removing 3v3 preview which I honestly think was the best thing ever to happen to the 1v1 metagame.
basically, i feel that 1v1 is such a different game with and w/o team preview that arguing which is a better metagame is akin to arguing whether soccer or baseball is the better sport; they really arent comparable, and it ultimately just comes down to what sort of game you want to play. i feel that the ideal solution is to have two ladders, one with team preview and one without, but i dont know if 1v1 has a large enough userbase for a schism like this, and in any case, dividing communities like that always just leads to petty infighting and drama. i would like to see old 1v1 come back as an omotm at least tho
...it's perfectly possible to have a single team that can beat all 4 or so of the people also laddering at the same time as you, and you predict within the battles themselves rather than outside on the team selection. ...and removing the pokemon selection from the battle itself means that what's actually going on is that the majority of the skill is involved with knowing how showdown works, and having a good internet connection in order to get matched at the time you want to get matched up, rather than prediction happening in the battles. ... It's a game of pokemon, and it's skillful, but the skill's in the wrong place. ...I believe the skill of a pokemon game should be first and foremost happening within the battle itself. ...But there should at least be a large element of skill happening within the battle itself rather than the entire thing being determined outside of it.
I'd like to start off by addressing this. What you're saying here is that what happens at team preview in 1v1 like it is right now is skill. Let's set aside the fact that you ignored what I said in my posts and go over this once again. Saying that team preview 1v1 is a "prediction" and a "game of skill" is really just disrespecting good players. I'll try to explain it by giving another example on why. Here's an example of what could happen according to your definition:

Player 1 and Player 2 go into a 1v1 battle and face each other at team preview.
Player 1 has pokes a, b and c. Player 2 has pokes x, y, and z.
Player 2 notices that a beats x and z, but loses to y, and so Player 2 picks y and Player 1 picks a. Thus, Player 2 has "predicted" the pick, and earned the win against his opponent.
Do you really give a good player (let's say Player 1 is a good player) that little credit? Do you think that little of him that you think he couldn't make the same conclusion as Player 2? In reality, Player 1 thought that Player 2 would come to that conclusion, and then Player 1 imagined that Player 2 would also respect Player 1 and figure out that Player 1 figured out Player 2's plan. And thus Player 1 imagined that Player 2 would not pick y because that plan was obvious, and so Player 1 picks a to deal with x and z.
Was Player 1 really outskilled then? Wasn't it rather that he expected his opponent to be more skilled?
Now what if Player 2 had figured out Player 1's advanced plan and picked y anyway? And what if Player 1 also thought of Player 2 figuring out Player 1's advanced plan? This could go on and on and on, and deeper and deeper, and it's what I mean by an endless loop and this is the essence of what a 50/50 is.

Another example:

Player 1 and Player 2 go into a 1v1 battle and face each other at team preview.
Player 1 has pokes a, b and c. Player 2 has pokes x, y, and z.
Player 1 has unique sets, (but somewhat known or capable of being figured out by an experienced player) on pokes a, b and c, such as that they beat what they would normally lose to. If Player 2 knows these sets or figures them out, Player 2 could pick accordingly.
Player 1 here faces another level of dilemma here, and there are multiple way's this could play out. Player 1 could assume Player 2 doesn't know about Player 1's sets and picks accordingly and wins if that was the case, or lose if it wasn't the case. Now what if Player 2 knew the sets but assumed that Player 1 was oblivious to this, and so Player 2 picks according to that? Once again it boils down to guessing and results in a 50/50.

Now I really hope that I have proven how team preview 1v1 causes 50/50's. Now here's a quote from the wikipedia article about coin flipping (50/50) "...It is used widely in sports and other games to decide arbitrary factors...". Do we really want a competitive match be decided by a game used to decide arbitrary factors? I for one would really like that to stop.

Which is what brings me to what Mamp said, that 1v1 with and without team preview are 2 different metagames that equally have their merits for a ladder. I have just proven that what you said isn't the case, that the team preview 1v1 ladder is objectively less competitive than 1v1 without team preview. Why should team preview 1v1 be compared to no team preview 1v1 as something of equal standing? My suggestion was never about splitting the player-base or anything of the sort. I was just suggesting reverting a change to the 1v1 ladder that affected the ladder negatively, just as simple as when the change was made. Of course players have grown accustomed to the new ladder, in the same way that players were accustomed the the old 1v1 ladder, but that didn't stop the change to occur in the 1st place.

Now as for what Articuno I said about skill being determined outside of the battle in 1v1 with no team preview. That is/was the definition of 1v1, that's what 1v1 was about, trying to figure out what poke would have highest win percentage against the other pokes while laddering, and that's not a negative thing. It was the essence of 1v1 and that concept was what made it so appealing to players. It's a ladder based metagame, and uniquely so. Now please, don't ignore what I said in my posts about how you control your win-rate by having knowledge of what the current ladder is, and making your pick accordingly. And note that also by being able to predict how your opponents will adapt to your presence on the ladder takes another level of skill.

Now compare being able to control your win-rate on the ladder by being able to consider different factors and having the skill to pick your poke and set accordingly to being forced into a Rock - Paper - Scissors or a 50/50 at best at team preview against every decent team. Team preview is objectively forcing luck, while luck won't be a deciding factor in how good you fare in a ladder without team preview. I'm saying this with the assumption that you have read my 2 previous posts and I'm basing what I'm saying on them.
 
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As someone who experienced the ladder back before the 3v3 preview, I am firmly against the proposed change. When I played 1v1 before the preview, honestly most of the time it played out somewhat like it does with the 3v3 preview, only you have to predict who your opponent will be next time as well as what they will bring, rather than only having to predict which of three options your opponent will bring. The alternative to this was sniping, which is also unreliable. But at the end of the day, everyone had a number of different mons, and would periodically change between which one they would bring next depending on what their opponents had been bringing and who they thought the ladder would pair them up with next. This is not dissimilar to the current ladder, except for a few things, the more minor being that people are less likely to change their teams nowadays as it's perfectly possible to have a single team that can beat all 4 or so of the people also laddering at the same time as you, and you predict within the battles themselves rather than outside on the team selection.

The major difference, related to what I've been talking about, is that prior to the 3v3 preview the battling happens outside the battle itself. I would argue it's rare for prediction to be needed once mons have been chosen, and removing the pokemon selection from the battle itself means that what's actually going on is that the majority of the skill is involved with knowing how showdown works, and having a good internet connection in order to get matched at the time you want to get matched up, rather than prediction happening in the battles. If your internet lags, you get paired with someone else and you've brought the wrong team for that person, so you lose. If you reckon the ladder's going to pair you up with someone you're unlikely to beat you just wait a while before searching again and you pair up with someone you can beat instead. It's a game of pokemon, and it's skillful, but the skill's in the wrong place. There is a clear advantage in the hands of people with two things: Good internet connection, and a good knowledge of how the ladder system on showdown works.

I have two problems with the system I've just detailed. The first is that I believe the skill of a pokemon game should be first and foremost happening within the battle itself. Of course there will be some matchup problems, there always are and we can't escape that, and you can always snipe someone on the ladder. But there should at least be a large element of skill happening within the battle itself rather than the entire thing being determined outside of it. And secondly, I don't see a) internet connection or b) knowledge of showdown's inner workings as relevant in terms of how much elo you should recieve. If you gain elo for cteaming someone then fair enough, that's an element of pokemon, but a lot of the ranking was due to those other two factors before 3v3 preview, and that's not something that I think is a positive effect on a metagame.

Therefore, I am against removing 3v3 preview which I honestly think was the best thing ever to happen to the 1v1 metagame.
How does internet connection affect a team previewless metagame? You assume that the player with a good connection can effectively predict when the other player will be searching for a battle, and will be matched with that player and not someone else. You yourself stated that trying to snipe someone on ladder is unreliable. So how does someone with a good internet connection have an advantage? The player with the advantage is the one who has picked the pokemon who is doing best against the majority of the ladder. He may lose some matches, but if he makes good choices based on his knowledge of the current meta, he will win more then he can lose. Yes you can be c-teamed. But part of being good at laddering in 1v1 is dealing with changes in the metagame. And if the player c-teaming uses a narrow set just to beat a certain player, they compromise their win rate against the rest of the ladder.
 
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As Kingslayer2779 said, counter teaming isn’t a problem that is inherent to the old 1v1. While I said in my previous post that it was pretty hard to come up with a counter for a balanced team, it is not impossible to do so if you’re really committed to countering a specific team, and as such sniping can be done as well in the actual 1v1, even if harder to do. Also, because the old 1v1, if I’m correct, lets you bring up to six pokemon, which aren’t revealed on team preview, there is no telling if your opponent will send the same pokemon twice. And let’s say there’s no 6v6 team preview, I still don’t find that sniping method to be all that efficient, no matter how good your internet connection or knowledge of pokemon showdown is, because in the end you never really know if your target stops playing, if someone else emerges or simply if your target changes his team as well in the meantime.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Aight time to post bout this debate on old 1v1, or not, and whether we should bring it back, or not.

So 1v1 started off with just 1 mon against 1 mon, and no team preview. In this meta the skill was in teambuilding and knowledge of the metagame. So 1v1 was essentially a teambuilding battle. In the new style 1v1 is essentially the same, except you have to 'predict' what your opponent will use. The idea behind this is that more of the meta is being covered and therefore you dont have to switch mons to not lose to one guy on the ladder whose mon beats yours. However in the new 1v1 it is still much the same as the vast majority of the meta is still uncoverable with just 3 mons. This means that the very change the person/people who argued for a team preview have wanted to get rid of, is still in the meta. As Rumplestiltskin has said 1v1 was always supposed to be a ladder meta, yet this old style also speeds up the tour matches. This is because of how instead of deliberating over what to pick and then bragging about their 'predicting' skills, the two players both instantaneously pit their mons against each other. Old 1v1 also is the very essence of 1v1 as it is literally back to just 1 mon versus 1 mon which is what people loved the meta for, the simplicity and quickness of the matches without the deliberating over what mon to pick which leads to a false interpretation of skill.

So essentially, yeah lets bring back old 1v1 is what im trying to say ;P
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
In this meta the skill was in teambuilding and knowledge of the metagame. So 1v1 was essentially a teambuilding battle.
So if you steal someone's team, you have the same "skill" as them? This is a terrible idea. If your one mon = team = skill level, then there is no battling skill. I take a mon off the sample thread, I am now the best player in the meta. In 3v3, there is still some skill. To quote the OU framework,
"B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
1.) Picking the Right Lead - ability to look at your team and your opponent's Pokemon and make an intelligent determination of what your win condition is and which Pokemon will best promote that in the beginning
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time
a.) Encompasses ability to judge the opponent's potential moves
b.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly
4.) Smart Switching - ability to switch intelligently to swing momentum in your favor
a.) Encompasses the ability to predict an opponent's moves and switch for the best scenario
b.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary
5.) Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
a.) The ability to predict or assume opponent sets in order to better plan a win condition
b.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions
6.) Long Term vs. Short Term Goals
a.) The ability to weigh when to bring in a potential win condition
b.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.
7.) Assessing Risk
a.) Knowing when to sacrifice for a greater position later
b.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move
8.) Probability Management
a.) The ability to take into account the numerous probability factors that are in the game, including accuracy, secondary effects, and critical hits, and consider the best strategy
b.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors
9.) Prediction
a.) The ability to take into account all of the opponent's potential actions, apply weights to them, and move accordingly
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor"

NONE of this exists in the old format. But there is skill in picking the right lead (this is not pure rock paper scissors it is actually complex game theory that not everyone will know. Also you have to predict which set each enemy mon has in order to apply game theory.) in the current format. So basically if you want a queue sniping team stealing skillless one minute game, go with the old format. But if you want a complex one involving skill and knowledge, keep the new 1v1.
PLZ don't bring back old 1v1
 
So if you steal someone's team, you have the same "skill" as them? This is a terrible idea. If your one mon = team = skill level, then there is no battling skill. I take a mon off the sample thread, I am now the best player in the meta. In 3v3, there is still some skill. To quote the OU framework,
"B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
1.) Picking the Right Lead - ability to look at your team and your opponent's Pokemon and make an intelligent determination of what your win condition is and which Pokemon will best promote that in the beginning
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time
a.) Encompasses ability to judge the opponent's potential moves
b.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly
4.) Smart Switching - ability to switch intelligently to swing momentum in your favor
a.) Encompasses the ability to predict an opponent's moves and switch for the best scenario
b.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary
5.) Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
a.) The ability to predict or assume opponent sets in order to better plan a win condition
b.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions
6.) Long Term vs. Short Term Goals
a.) The ability to weigh when to bring in a potential win condition
b.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.
7.) Assessing Risk
a.) Knowing when to sacrifice for a greater position later
b.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move
8.) Probability Management
a.) The ability to take into account the numerous probability factors that are in the game, including accuracy, secondary effects, and critical hits, and consider the best strategy
b.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors
9.) Prediction
a.) The ability to take into account all of the opponent's potential actions, apply weights to them, and move accordingly
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor"

NONE of this exists in the old format. But there is skill in picking the right lead (this is not pure rock paper scissors it is actually complex game theory that not everyone will know. Also you have to predict which set each enemy mon has in order to apply game theory.) in the current format. So basically if you want a queue sniping team stealing skillless one minute game, go with the old format. But if you want a complex one involving skill and knowledge, keep the new 1v1.
PLZ don't bring back old 1v1
If you can win in 1v1 just by picking pokemon and sets off a sample thread (which you can in the current meta) then something else is wrong. If picking certain pokemon gives a massive advantage to a player, that Pokemon should be banned.

Anyway your post shows your failure to understand how 1v1 worked without team preview. X set or Pokemon might be the best in the meta Monday morning, but by noon, the ladder has adapted and Y is the best set or Pokemon in the meta. This is an oversimplification of what actually happens, but you should understand the point. Pokemon that you can just "pick and win" are broken. This isn't a unique problem for the team previewless meta. In the current meta it is easy to win with simple HO teams using Kyu-B, Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence, and Mega Charizard X/Y. These mons could be considered "pick and win" as well.
 

The Immortal

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Other Metas Leader
I just want to respond to one point that I heavily disagree with.

While 1v1 was defined by how good your poke was against the current meta back then, it is now defined by the team preview aspect, which against a good team is just a Rock – Paper – Scissors or a 50/50 at best. You enter a game and the outcome is decided at team preview many times.
You say that without team preview it's about skill, utilizing a Pokemon that can beat the most number of threats on the ladder. But when you talk about team preview, somehow players don't have skill anymore. It is not rock/paper/scissors and I'm quite surprised Dream Eater Gengar supported your post because he knows exactly what I'm talking about. Creating sets that beat your supposed counters is skill. I have had huge success with my Mega Charizard X set (which I got the idea from one of DEG's sets) because it beats Pokemon that the opponent would expect it would lose to. Looking at team preview you have no idea what set a Pokemon is running. It is only rock/paper/scissors when you have two unskilled opponents against each other, running cookie cutter sets.

With that said, I definitely feel 1v1 with team preview requires more skill. Without team preview, just utilizing a "strong" Pokemon will get you a good position on the ladder, like Greninja for example. Whilst you may be able to argue the same for team preview, as I pointed out above the higher skilled players such DEG will be more successful.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
I just want to respond to one point that I heavily disagree with.



You say that without team preview it's about skill, utilizing a Pokemon that can beat the most number of threats on the ladder. But when you talk about team preview, somehow players don't have skill anymore. It is not rock/paper/scissors and I'm quite surprised Dream Eater Gengar supported your post because he knows exactly what I'm talking about. Creating sets that beat your supposed counters is skill. I have had huge success with my Mega Charizard X set (which I got the idea from one of DEG's sets) because it beats Pokemon that the opponent would expect it would lose to. Looking at team preview you have no idea what set a Pokemon is running. It is only rock/paper/scissors when you have two unskilled opponents against each other, running cookie cutter sets.

With that said, I definitely feel 1v1 with team preview requires more skill. Without team preview, just utilizing a "strong" Pokemon will get you a good position on the ladder, like Greninja for example. Whilst you may be able to argue the same for team preview, as I pointed out above the higher skilled players such DEG will be more successful.
You're right in that creating sets that beat what they're supposed to lose to is skill. That's what many of my sets do so I have experience with this, and I actually addressed this scenario in my previous post. Once you've used such a set on the ladder, players will know about it. So in the coming battles, will you still pick as if the opponent doesn't know about your set? Some might, and some don't. How will you know who knows what? What if you suspect that the opponent knows your set and pick something else, but it results in the bad matchup because the opponent didn't know, or maybe they knew but picked what they picked anyway to win the matchup if you assumed they knew. And what if they don't know your set, but pick the bad matchup for you anyway because of their lack of skill? Or what if they're also using an unconventional set that will beat your different than standard set anyway? In conclusion, it still boils down to guessing, and hoping to trick the opponent by showing off your squad, and hoping the ruse will work.

Which brings me to the next thing you said, that "It is only rock/paper/scissors when you have two unskilled opponents against each other, running cookie cutter sets.". I really hope my previous rhetorical questions have shed some light into how this statement isn't correct. Furthermore, consider this: two players are facing each other and both are running unconventional sets that beat their counters (implying skill) and both players know each others sets (which really isn't far fetched considering how you run into the same players more than once while laddering), it is very much a rock/paper/scissors or 50/50 in this case, and both players are arguably skilled.

Now of course you run into the same opponents multiple times in a ladder without team preview as well, and maybe you want to use that fact to counter my argument? I'd like to address this and further address the argument of "playing outside the game".
Even if they did run into each other multiple times, they can't just play the "mindgame" before going into the ladder, because there's the possibility of running into someone else. You could of course try to do that sort of "sniping" if your pick is a versatile one that will get you wins if you face someone else, and if you win it's only fair. If someone uses a set designed just to beat you, then they are very likely to lose to everyone else on the ladder and get a very low win-rate that way ultimately. Everyone is trying to counter each other, but the skilled players are the ones who will see the bigger picture and pick what gets the most wins against whats being used at that moment. A less skilled player might have a narrower pool of 1v1 pokes, such as that they will use m-mawile to counter kyub, and someone else might modify their kyub set to beat other kyubs. But a better player with a good pool of 1v1 pokes can recognize this trend on the ladder and pick a poke that beats these various sets altogether.
I'll give you an example on this. Imagine that a player noticed the trend on the ladder and then played 10 games. In those 10 games he faced 5 kyubs, 3 mawiles, and 2 charizard-y. And imagine he was using a poke that beats kyub and mawile, but loses to charizard-y. That's 8/10 wins, an 80% win-rate.
Conversely, imagine that this same player played on the 3v3 team preview ladder and lost all games because of wrong pick at team preview (there are various factors involved, but in the end it arguably boils down to guessing and 50/50's). That's 0/10 wins, a 0% win-rate, and it's not far-fetched at all, it has happened to me. Same player, same skill, 80% win-rate vs 0% win-rate, no team preview vs 3v3 team preview, respectively. I really hope that my argument about how team preview 3v3 is less competitive makes more sense now.

Regarding the utilizing strong pokemon to advance on the ladder argument, that has more to do with what pokemon are allowed in 1v1 rather than what no team preview causes. Every pokemon is very much counterable, even "strong" ones, and it's very healthy for the meta to be able to counter them. Meanwhile imagine someone is using 3 pokemon in a 1v1 team and one of them is this "strong" pokemon, with the other two covering its weaknesses. This will force a 50/50 at best, rather than being able to make a conscious (skilled) decision and counter the player using that poke.
You do have a point though about these "strong" pokemon. There are definitely pokemon in 1v1 that stand far above the rest and require the use of a limited pool of pokemon to deal with. They will be used by many players because they result in playing on "easy mode", and there's not much reason not to use them. And that is what good players can bank on in a no team preview ladder. The fact that many different players will use these "easy mode" pokes is an opportunity to be grabbed by laddering with something that beats them. Furthermore, the problem that a select few pokes stand far above the rest can be fixed by banning them, though I definitely foresee a lot of opposition to this suggestion because players are used to these pokes, are using them, and have adjusted to them.
 

The Immortal

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Again, when you talk about both sides, one side can do x but the other side can't do x for some reason.

But a better player with a good pool of 1v1 pokes can recognize this trend on the ladder and pick a poke that beats these various sets altogether.
Just how you say someone skilled can adapt to the 1v1 no preview ladder, similarly, someone skilled adapts to the 1v1 team preview ladder. You're speaking as if in no team preview you have many "teams" but in team preview you're stuck with one and when your opponent saw it, game over, it's 50/50. Having many teams is part of a skilled player's arsenal.

There's no point arguing with you because you're clearly biased towards one side as your points about both metagames are not equal. In any case, team preview isn't going away, and I like Mamp's idea of perhaps a Classic 1v1 LCotM at some point.

..........

I'd like to shift gears to a different topic, which is Blaziken (not Mega). What are you thoughts on it? How will it fair in the 1v1 metagame? Should it be suspect tested?
 

DoW

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It would certainly be an interesting addition to the meta. With a set of Protect/Flare Blitz/HJK/Stone Edge it would beat Chansey, MMaw, most Kyu-B and Zard Y while losing to standard Zard X, MMence, Gyara, and quite a few things in lower ranks such as Dnite, M-Slowbro, Deo-D, Garchomp, Togekiss...
From a quick theorymoning perspective I'd guess it would be S or A rank, and certainly not overpowered.

I'm also forced to ask the same question I asked in the Mono thread: Why not Mega? As I seem to be pointing out everywhere LO blaze is stronger, and while M-Blaze has better bulk, this isn't a hugely important point when it changes very few 2HKOs to OHKOs, especially in this metagame where it's pretty difficult to wear a threat down via LO damage. The extra speed might be useful against things like Scarf Kyu-B, and it doesn't have to worry about taking up a mega slot, but honestly I don't see Mega as vastly better than LO.
 

The Immortal

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Well, the only difference would be it's (slightly) less frail and doesn't have LO recoil, which could be the deciding factor in a match. Also, less susceptible to priority because of those points. Oh and obviously the added Speed is a plus point.

Feel free to argue for/against Mega as well.
 
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Funbot28

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Ya I don't believe Blaziken (and it's mega) won't be too hard to fit in the current meta as we already have plenty of other hard hitters like the Mega Charizards, Mega Mawile, Kyreum-B and Mega Salamence. The only real thing it has over these mons is the ability to gain it's speed each turn and hold an item (if not mega), but we have quite a bit of priority in the tier so maybe it can be manageable, but will need to test out. I personally feel that it's less threatening then Mawile and Salamence imo.
 

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