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Josh

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Fwiw blaziken and it's mega both occupy the same subrank in ubers, and in AG the mega is much lower due to opportunity cost but if mega ray didn't occupy the mega slot then it would likely as well. I know 1v1 is a different meta, but where blacken is allowed the mega form is viewed as less or equally viable.

I'd like em unbanned but meh I'm bad at 1v1
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
The reason I suggested non mega blaziken was because even after a speed boost common scarfers such as porygon-Z and kyurem-black still outspeed it, as well as a minus 1 flare blitz can't even Ohko mega mawile, although this can be fixed by running mixed with overheat. It also can't Ohko Chansey with a hjk. Also after a speed boost faster megas, EG mega lopunny, still outspeed if blaziken is adamant. However if mega blaziken is unbanned if running jolly after a speed boost it can outspeed Kyub and pory-Z, although if mega blaziken runs adamant it is still outsped by +speed natured kyub and pory-Z. Overall I believe normal blaziken should be unbanned, because although it can hit harder with a life orb(than its mega counterpart) A. It's lower speed is very crippling.
B. It still misses out on some vital ohkoes even with life orb unless running mixed, which links into the fact that it has very low bulk and a strong hit from one of the metas strongest mons (Zard-X, mawile-mega, etc) will crumple it.

So essentially I think UNBAN normal blaziken because it's slower :p, and still misses out on some ohkoes even with life orb, and leave mega blaziken BANNED.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Well in Ubers both mega and non mega are too frail and the power is about the same, so it is opportunity cost vs extra speed. But in 1v1 the bulk difference may matter. However, It doesn't seem remotely broken so the mega will probably be tame too.
 
I have to recommend caution for those who want to unban Blaziken. Blaz's power is not something to underestimate or trifle with. It can viably run Jolly or Adamant, which does have an influence on key matchups. Yeah its not super fast even with Speed Boost, but you have a 50/50 shot of double Protecting Yes as many of you have pointed, it loses to many Dragon types and Ground types. Anything that can win matchups regardless of type doesn't really belong in 1v1. Its only natural Blaziken gets creamed by things like Dragonite, Rhyperior, Garchomp and Deo-D. I think its more important to look at matchups where the opponent doesn't have a massive type advantage. Starting with S rank mons and going down-

Charizard Mega-X- The smart move is to DDance on the predicted Protect, which means a smart opponent could try and stone edge on the DDance because prediction is two way street. If Blaziken manages to land a hit on Charizard, it does this
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 268-317 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Note the chance to OHKO. It isn't guaranteed by any means, but Charizard X can lose. Of course you guarantee the win by some small bulk investment, but its worth noting.

Mega Mawile- beats anything but LO Adamant, more of a testament to Mawile's insane bulk and power than Blaziken's prowess.

Kyuerm-B- Its a 50/50 thanks to Protect against Scarf sets. Weakness Policy sets running max bulk are also a 50/50 against LO Adamant. You could argue thats a sign that Blaziken isn't broken, but do you really want to introduce more 50/50s into 1v1?

Chansey-gets smashed by Blaz, which is pretty expected.

Aegislash- not bulky enough to take on Flare Blitz even if after a -2 drop from KS. More or less expected, but there was always the chance KS nerfed it just enough. You could also run a SE berry if you want but i would prefer to consider standard sets only.

Garde- gets smashed by Flare Blitz, unless you are into a physically defensive set.

Greninja- Speed Boost outpaces and its OHKO by HJK.

Mega Metagross- loses to Flare Blitz as expected

Meloetta- a typical Specs set loses, a Scarf set is 50/50ed by Protect. investing in physical defense could do it, but really why.

Pory-Z- 50/50ed by Protect.

Pory-2- gets smashed as expected by HJK.

Togekiss- Kiss has the type advantage, but Blaz speed ties the Scarf sets and OHKOs. Blaz nearly OHKOs Sp.Def sets, but is probably losing to Paraflinch. It can live Air Slash so there is a small chance. Not happening if unless you are a hax master though.

So counting the mons that basically auto win due to typing, thats 7 (or 8 i suppose) mons in the S-A ranks that Blaz is guaranteed to lose to. Meanwhile Blaz is guaranteed to beat about the same amount depending on what you count as "beating a Pokemon." Which doesn't sound broken right? Then you remember all the frail Scarf users that Blaziken 50/50s with Protect. Thats reason enough to keep Blaziken out imo. I'm not a fan of deliberately adding luck as a factor into Pokemon. It makes ladders far less skill intensive. There is also a plethora of B rank mons that i haven't shown here. I'm in favor of keeping Blaziken banned, as its not definitively not broken in 1v1 and adds a number of 50/50 situations.
 
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Rosa

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what are some counters to P-Z?


Since Porygon-Z has such a wide variety of possible sets and moves it can use, there isn't really much of anything that can act as a definite counter to it.
These pokemon act as a check for Porygon-Z, more often than not, they will beat the common sets, but can be still be beaten by gimmicky sets;
Tyranitar-Reg/M (Can live through just about anything from a P-Z, bar from the incredibly bad HP Fighting)
Heatran (If max HP and SpAtk, make sure the 4 EVs go to SpDef, so that way a Specs Download P-Z can't 2HKO you)
Metagross (Generally beats any and all P-Z, bar from a Specs Download + Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse)
Aegislash (Same scenario as Heatran, put the 4 EVs into SpDef to stop Download)
Sableye (Beats all P-Z, given that it is specially defensive over physically, as a Specs Download attack with base 110 power or higher is capable of 2HKO-ing)
Jirachi (Given 4 EVs to SpDef, the odds of this pokemon being OHKO'd are a mere 12.5%; ultimately, the serene grace hax still plays a significant role, since P-Z is able to survive 2 Iron Heads to the face)
Sawk (Pretty much a guaranteed counter to P-Z, only a Chople Berry P-Z can even dream of having a chance against this thing.)

If there is anything I'm missing, please forgive me, it is 3 AM and I am about to fall dead asleep.
 

Fake Melo

Banned deucer.
Ya I don't believe Blaziken (and it's mega) won't be too hard to fit in the current meta as we already have plenty of other hard hitters like the Mega Charizards, Mega Mawile, Kyreum-B and Mega Salamence. The only real thing it has over these mons is the ability to gain it's speed each turn and hold an item (if not mega), but we have quite a bit of priority in the tier so maybe it can be manageable, but will need to test out. I personally feel that it's less threatening then Mawile and Salamence imo.
Though power is something that is heavy set in the tier, if you refer to Kingslayer2779 's post you will see that blaze's power is possibly overwhelming compared to the rest. That compared to the 50/50s it opens up, one could argue its both overpowered and unhealthy. This, of course is all in theory and backed up by calcs with no actual gameplay involved. Not sure if blaze was ever legal in 1v1, if it was I wasn't around. Would love to see it in action to play with and against it and see if its perhaps too powerful and or unhealthy for the meta. A suspect would be nice.
 
(Magnezone) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / (Insert speed creep here) Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Endure
- Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / HP Fire

This is a dumb set that I stole from someone on the ladder yesterday. I find myself using this thing in like half my battles and it definitely pulls its weight. Running Endure + Sturdy may seem retarded but it actually helps a lot against people that think they can bypass Sturdy with a low power move first (also helps a lot against mold breakers and Heracross). I strongly encourage that people try this out before they denounce it, because it's actually quite fun to use and covers so many threats. Plus you can run min speed to speed tie Aegislash and hit it in Blade forme.
 
(Magnezone) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / (Insert speed creep here) Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Endure
- Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / HP Fire

This is a dumb set that I stole from someone on the ladder yesterday. I find myself using this thing in like half my battles and it definitely pulls its weight. Running Endure + Sturdy may seem retarded but it actually helps a lot against people that think they can bypass Sturdy with a low power move first (also helps a lot against mold breakers and Heracross). I strongly encourage that people try this out before they denounce it, because it's actually quite fun to use and covers so many threats. Plus you can run min speed to speed tie Aegislash and hit it in Blade forme.
How does your opponent die when you use Endure? Like, how does this set help you win?
 
Endure puts you in Custap range, meaning that faster Mold Breakers that OHKO you instead have to deal with a pseudo-priority attack (This notably lets you beat naive Kyurem-B 37.5% of the time, which otherwise annihilates you with Earth Power). Most of the time you will just KO everything with 2 attacks or one, but if they outspeed you and do between 50 and 75% then endure lets you activate the custap berry.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
ok BAN MEGAMENCE. This thing tears through everything. Everyone knows its ridiculous physical attack stat and ability combo can destroy everything, and with intimidate, you're not beating it with a physical attacker with that 130bulk. Its physical prowess and set alone is enough for it to be banned imo, but that's not even how I use it. I'm 3rd on ladder (Inb4 ladder doesn't matter - where does anyone else play 1v1 at?) by using a special bulky mence. I run max hp and SpA with a modest nature and hyper beam, flamethrower, toxic, and roost. Yeah toxic and roost you're probably thinking that's stupid. But nah, with that bulk and max hp, this thing can toxic stall pretty much anything that isn't 2hkoing it. Also, this set beats annoying things like chansey. Special mence lures in chansey and WoW sableye, both of which lose to either toxic stall or a quick flamethrower to hyper beam in sableye's case. This thing can even get a roll and beat mega gyarados with a toxic and hyper beam. It's a roll, but cmon, thats insane. Oh wait, did I mention this beats both Zards (Unless speedy sub) and Mawile (!!!) if it isn't running hyper cutter, and most run intimidate. So this thing beats everything, and can run a variety of sets. Oh you want your kyu-b scarf ice beam, let me throw on another regular salamence that is scarf outrage or draco meteor. I haven't even tried special mega draco hyper voice sets, but cmon between the physical set and my set which pretty much beats everything other than scarf ice beam, its time for this to go.

Too lazy for replays and calcs, but challenge me to a 1v1 if you don't believe it beats all that I said it did.
 
Rayquaza seems broken for OU, but in 1v1 i'm not quite sold.
Rayquaza's main advantage that got it far was dragon dance which is not nearly as effective in 1v1 as it is in Overused, it's large list of checks actually would be real checks because it can't just setup on something that can't hurt it and eventually be able to sweep through it's offensive checks.
Some of it's notable checks are:
Manaphy, Diancie (252 HP Specs), Timid HP Ice Charizard-Y, Gallade Mega with Protect, Mamoswine, Altaria-Mega (non band), Starmie, Weavile, Mega-Metagross, Garchomp, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Mega Mence (Outrage, non-scarf special), Cresselia, Physically Defensive Mega-Mawile (Non-Band), Genesect, Mega Lopunny, Mega- Medicham, Aggron-Mega (non-special), Aegislash (252+ HP Ice with 252 hp), Togekiss (non-band), Whimsicott, Staraptor, Dragonite (Non-Band), Deoyxs-Speed, Greninja, Slowbro (non-specs), Slowbro-Mega, Porygon2, Keldeo, Sawk and Jolly Zard X, Gyarados-Mega, Archeops (non-special), Mega-Lucario, and avalugg if u dare
Also Manaphy can take any hit it can give while scarfed with absolutely no investment without a high roll. Deoyxs-S outspeeds scarfed variants, Weavile OHKO's with ice shard against scarfed variants, and Genesect is often scarfed itself

When looking at Rayquaza it shows a lot of similarities to Salamence-Mega which had been dropped, differences being that Salamence mega can take the ice shards, use an even more insane flying stab, and go a lot faster at the cost of V-Create, priority (which doesnt help it beat any threats listed.) and a item. I don't see why this is too broken for the meta, it's not too hard to get pass and it is arguably a worse option than Salamence-Mega. This idea would seem somewhat more sketchy if Salamence-Mega actually was tested and found broken but as of now it really feels like it's up to discussion. Despite the dangerous and diverse movepool rayquaza possesses it still manages to have defensive checks like Manaphy and Cresselia who can OHKO -1 Rayquaza and is not able to be killed in 2 hits without Dragon Ascent or V-Create. Rayquaza also manages to have a much more diverse list of pokemon that beat it simply due to it's lower speed leaving it pretty easy to beat, but still incredible in 1v1.
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-312614143
Please ban Flash, Sand-Attack, Kinesis, etc. This is kinda ridiculous. I'm iffy on Mud-Slap because it can't hit Fliers.
These moves are more or less Double Team in 1v1 since the opponent can't switch, so its just as uncompetetive. I would totally support a ban.

Edit: while there are some options that block those moves like bounce/clear body/keen eyes and Sub, of those only sub is common and clear body/keen eyes/magic coat. are extremely niche/gimmicky.
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
The difference is that they target the opponent rather than increase the pokes own evasion, which means it's useless vs substitute, magic bounce, clear body, keen eyes and magic coat. Not sure yet if that's reason enough not to ban, but just saying.
 
Hey! I recently made a post in 1v1 viability rankings which contained the following solution to problems such as MegaMence and other mega evolution spam.

"Also, I'd like to propose a few extra things in 1v1 that could allow the metagame to become a lot more creative in both teambuilding and battling. Mawile-Mega, Salamence-Mega, and others have, through huge power and overall advantage, prevented a huge portion of Pokemon, particularly those not capable of beating mega boosted Pokemon, from being any bit viable. I'd like to suggest some sort of limitation to the All Powerful Mega Evolutions such as a 1 or 2 Mega Pokemon limit per team. With a limitation such as this, everyone will have the advantage of not having to prepare for as many of the mega power houses, such as Mawile-Mega, Salamence-Mega, both Charizard-Megas, Gyarados-Mega, as well as countless more."

So, does this satisfy the needs of Mega evolution spam (such as SalaMega spammed with stuff like Mawile-Mega?)

Also, Salamence-Mega is extremely overpowered and overused, so it may deserve a ban as well.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
You would still have to prepare for those megas because you don't know who will be using them, even if there is a mega stone limit on teams. Mega pokemon are recognised even by Game Freak as something extraordinally strong, and that's why they limited them to 1/6 pokes per battle. And that requires you to pick a mega with care, and try to not lose it too easily in a 6v6 battle. In 1v1 however that limit doesn't matter because you can only use 1 poke anyway, which is why I think that in 1v1 mega pokemon that are too strong compared to the rest of the pokes should be banned, even if those same mega's are allowed in OU. Some of them that come to mind are the mega charizards, gardevoir, mawile, and salamence.

Regarding mega salamece, something I'd like to add to what LaxLapras said is that a mixed set easily destroys dedicated walls, while dedicated physical walls already have a hard time dealing with a purely physical megamence in the first place. A mixed mega salamence set is simply not manageable from a defensive point of view. And the fact that it's so similar to rayquaza only proves how much it needs a ban.

1v1 right now has become like a less diverse ubers, a bunch of pokemon much stronger than the rest are allowed, and they are used to counter each other, which is where I think the idea of unbanning blaziken came from, to add diversity and mix it up, and its already not even that much stronger than the common pokes used, it fits right into this little 1v1 ubers that's going on right now, so might as well unban it right? Mega mawile, kyurem-black, the mega charizards, mega salamence, mega gardevoir, and greninja are all contributors to this "ubers state" I'm talking about, and I suggest being open to banning them so that a lot more pokes can become much more viable than how it is right now.

And more specifically regarding unbanning blaziken, you need to look at what it does to pokes beyond of the most commonly used pokes that were mentioned here to justify its unban. It has very good coverage with moves like thunder punch and stone edge, it could be either special or physical, it could be choiced or have life orb and swords dance, it's really unmanageable for defensive pokes. There's a reason uber pokes are in the uber tier and I think we should discuss all the relevant uber pokes allowed in 1v1 right now and question their right to stay rather than unbanning more ubers. What about 1v1 makes them acceptable here and not in OU?
1v1 started out in XY with all ubers banned, why weren't new ubers banned? Something banned in OU is a strong indication of it being too strong for the rest of the pokemon to handle, unless the reason was something very irrelevant to 1v1, such as mega gengar's shadow tag.
I'm guessing it's because the policy is that people should post in this thread for something to get banned? But since most 1v1 players don't bother posting here, I suggest that if something not irrelevant to 1v1 gets banned from OU it gets banned 1v1, and it should take people to post here to get it unbanned.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok, I feel I need to make a big post because there's been a lot of posts and ban proposals recently along the lines of "this meta's banlist differs from other metas, let's fix that" or "let's change this meta so that its balance is closer to that of standard tiers", which I honestly think is a big mistake. So rather than argue with every suggestion that inevitably pops up to replace the last, I'm going to take this opportunity to discuss 1v1 Tiering Philosophy instead.

The big thing about 1v1 is, well, you pick a pokemon and that's it. Being able to counter a set is the same as being able to check it. And while pokemon need to work well together to counter all the common sets you're likely to see, there isn't the same level of coherence between members of a team - from what I've found there's no such thing as running only stall pokes because it's more effective than running two stally mons and an offensive set. The reason all members of an OU team may follow the same playstyle is that otherwise momentum will be lost, different mons will need different amounts of support, and the team won't be greater than the sum of its parts. In 1v1, however, this is not the case.

So I'd argue that OU's reasons for banning or not banning a pokemon may well be different to those in 1v1, to the same extent as DOU having a different set of requirements. Because of this, I'd like to look at the very basic reasons for banning, and try to work out a coherent method to follow in 1v1 such that the right mons end up banned or not banned.

Let's start at the top: We don't want this to be AG 1v1. The idea of tiering is that we play with the common pokes, not the "hugely OP ones" such as m-ray or p-don that Game Freak seemingly designed to be OP, rather than the more standard mons. And if this isn't a good enough reason for you, my other two reasons are: a) having such powerful mons would likely decrease variety of viable pokemon and b) it simply wouldn't be as fun. The question, then, is where to draw the line in terms of what pokemon seem definitely broken, seem will definitely reduce the number and variety of viable pokemon and strategies, and will make the game less fun.

A good starting point might be OU's preliminary banlist or the Battle Spot bans, both of which are pretty similar. And to be honest, it's not that far from 1v1's current banlist. Aside from the blaziken ban and ignoring nintendo's bans (like mew or zygarde) that aren't based on competitive reasons, there aren't that many differences. Note I'm not necessarily saying this is a good place for the meta to be at - OU's certainly changed a lot and BSS starts with BS for a reason but from that point on, I'd argue there needs to be a clear and coherent reason in favour of a ban, rather than against.

So what's a good or bad reason for a pokemon to be banned? Bans exist such that a) the metagame is balanced and b) there are a wide variety of pokemon sets and strategies available while teambuilding. However, I've already explained that playstyles don't really happen as much in 1v1 - you might ban something in OU if it auto-bets any and all stall, but this isn't anywhere near as good a reason in 1v1 where running stall on two thirds of your team doesn't in any way restrict the other third. Just because a pokemon beats all stall mons doesn't mean you're limited in terms of available strategies, at least to a large extent. Moreover, there are a wide range of sets and strategies that are most certainly usable in the current metagame. Offensive sets such as choiced sets, setup sets, or simply powerful mons like Zard Y are definitely viable. Stally sets, such as Charm Chansey and even PP stall mons are certainly usable. Other kinds of sets such as subseed whimsicott or sub/encore/disable alakazam, while gimmicky, are still usable. Therefore, I'd argue that the only reason to ban a pokemon in the current metagame would be for balancing purposes.

So at what point is a pokemon broken? This is where definitions will always become a little fuzzy, however I honestly don't see that any of the current S-rank pokemon are broken. Every one of them has a wide range of available counters, whether it be Porygon-Z countered by Chansey or Mega Salamence losing to Iron Defense Deoxys-D.


So in summary, what I'm trying to say is that the meta is in a very good place right now. We simply don't need to shake it up in the way some of these changes would do, and in fact were we to design the metagame from scratch I'm pretty sure this is what we'd end up with in any case - after all, that's basically what I've just done.
There's just one change to the metagame that I'd recommend. Unban Blaziken.
 
There's just one change to the metagame that I'd recommend. Unban Blaziken.
Don't you think you should post some reasoning? Like calcs or something? Or address the concerns already brought up about Blaziken? Specifically the Protect 50/50s?

As for Mega Salamence, i took the liberty of calcing Mence's checks and counters using Pokemon from the 1v1 viability ranking. Of all the pokemon listed, only Deo-D, Kyu-B, Por-Z, Latios, Genesect, Greninja have a set guaranteed to beat every Mega Salamence set. And literally all of these pokemon with the exception of Deo-D are a fast or Scarf Ice Beam. It really isn't a joke to say Mega Mence forces players to run fast Ice Beam to counter it! If you don't believe look into yourself. I might have missed a few things but i think my point still stands. Mega Salamence is so flexible with the number of viable sets that it can run that it can basically beat anything that doesn't outright outspeed and OHKO. And it is so fast and bulky that isn't easy to do. So how is that not broken?
 
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Right now I'm thinking a 3 in 1 suspect for Blaziken, Mega Blaziken and Mega Salamence. The reason is that Blaziken and Salamence affect each other. If Mega Salamence is banned, for example, and then we have a Blaziken suspect, it would be more dangerous as it has one less counter.
 

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