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I decided not to wade any deeper into the shitposting that was being thrown around, which is why I'm not replying directly to anyone or attacking anyone's points here per se - In any case, I think superGezy did a perfectly good job of this.
I put a lot of thought into my post, so I don't appreciate you referring to legitimate discussion as shitposting. This is the second time you have resorted to a personal attack instead of addressing arguments that disagree with you. if you can't be objective you should probably refrain from posting.

As for the rest of your post the whole checks and counters argument has become somewhat stale. I'm sure there untested sets that can defeat top tier threats. That's the very nature of 1v1. Your set only has to work once and beat one pokemon in 1v1. It doesn't have to support a team or beat more then one thing, and it doesn't have to deal with the opponent switching out. Hence a greater number of "viable" sets. I mean the Sylveon set you named loses if you Endure and Mega Salamence uses Toxic then Giga Impacts. Its unlikely to happen the first time you face your opponent, on the ladder you can face the same opponent multiple times so it could come on. Thats why i say the whole checks and counters arguments are stale. Anti-Ban posters will just come up with some set that beats some Mega Mences and Pro-Ban posters will figure out a viable way for Mence to beat the check. I seriously doubt this argument will go anywhere. Instead we should focus on Mega Salamence's own traits, such as its ridiculous stats and great abilities. I think we can come to some conclusion about whether or not Mega Salamence's own traits are significantly better then the average 1v1 pokemon's traits in a manner that makes Mega Salamence broken.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I put a lot of thought into my post, so I don't appreciate you referring to legitimate discussion as shitposting. This is the second time you have resorted to a personal attack instead of addressing arguments that disagree with you. if you can't be objective you should probably refrain from posting.

As for the rest of your post the whole checks and counters argument has become somewhat stale. I'm sure there untested sets that can defeat top tier threats. That's the very nature of 1v1. Your set only has to work once and beat one pokemon in 1v1. It doesn't have to support a team or beat more then one thing, and it doesn't have to deal with the opponent switching out. Hence a greater number of "viable" sets. I mean the Sylveon set you named loses if you Endure and Mega Salamence uses Toxic then Giga Impacts. Its unlikely to happen the first time you face your opponent, on the ladder you can face the same opponent multiple times so it could come on. Thats why i say the whole checks and counters arguments are stale. Anti-Ban posters will just come up with some set that beats some Mega Mences and Pro-Ban posters will figure out a viable way for Mence to beat the check. I seriously doubt this argument will go anywhere. Instead we should focus on Mega Salamence's own traits, such as its ridiculous stats and great abilities. I think we can come to some conclusion about whether or not Mega Salamence's own traits are significantly better then the average 1v1 pokemon's traits in a manner that makes Mega Salamence broken.
By shitposting, I was referring people bringing up Brick Break Salamence, and similar. I certainly didn't intend to personally attack anyone in any of my posts.

Yes, there are ways to beat that Sylveon set, I never said it was perfect - in fact something like eq dd can often play around it easily, you don't have to use toxic or similar. But it has a good matchup against mega mence, especially given the way people expect Sylveon to be played. Yes, Mega Mence is very viable, and can beat many of its checks, but this can be said for almost any threat in the 1v1 metagame - look at people running sub zard x to beat hyper beam users, specs or wp kyu-b to beat mawile, etc. I think that's just an inherent part of 1v1 rather than a reason to think we can never beat a certain pokemon.
 
I decided not to wade any deeper into the shitposting that was being thrown around, which is why I'm not replying directly to anyone or attacking anyone's points here per se - In any case, I think superGezy did a perfectly good job of this.

What I would like to do is say that I think there are a huge number of viable, if not amazing, sets that haven't been experimented with yet. Recently I've been playing around with this set:
Sylveon @ Custap Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpA
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Shadow Ball
- Endure

The EVs allow it to take Zard X's Flare Blitz or MMence's Double-Edge, while two Hyper Voices are easily capable of KOing Zard X and one will take out Mence. However I generally Endure vs. Mence anyway as Giga Impact will still KO and I don't fear the sub. HP Rock allows me to deal with Zard Y, obviously. Endure allows me to get into Custap range, which is necessary in quite a few of these matchups. Shadow Ball is there to fill a slot TBH, it gives me a chance against things like Aegi or ScarfTini though you can run Psyshock to beat Greninja after enduring a gunk shot as well.

I think there's still quite a lot of unexplored sets similar to this, and especially to the people saying that only a few things are viable I'd definitely recommend you try some things out. Obviously this isn't the best mon that ever existed, but it catches quite a few people off-guard when they expect Zard X to be able to beat it.
You mentioned Endure/Sub in this post but you dismissed it for... uh... some reason. If the opponent has Sub and has played you before, then this becomes a 50/50 for the game. I do not think this is an acceptable counter because of this, and I don't understand why you dismissed it so casually.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
You mentioned Endure/Sub in this post but you dismissed it for... uh... some reason. If the opponent has Sub and has played you before, then this becomes a 50/50 for the game. I do not think this is an acceptable counter because of this, and I don't understand why you dismissed it so casually.
Hyper Voice goes around sub. If it's a zard y and you need to hit it with hp rock then that's another matter, but I don't recall ever seeing sub zard y tbh.

Edit: If you mean using sub in order that endure has a chance to break then sure, but that's no more effective than dd, which is more common in any case. Plus, even if they do predict correctly in this case, there's only a 50% chance of winning still. So in effect, they have to win a 50/50 mindgame and a 50/50 coinflip at the same time.

Edit at below: Huh, serebii lied to me. In any case, it still has a pretty decent chance of beating mence, and I'd be surprised if a mence player who didn't know the set were to beat it.
 
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Hyper Voice goes around sub. If it's a zard y and you need to hit it with hp rock then that's another matter, but I don't recall ever seeing sub zard y tbh.

Edit: If you mean using sub in order that endure has a chance to break then sure, but that's no more effective than dd, which is more common in any case. Plus, even if they do predict correctly in this case, there's only a 50% chance of winning still. So in effect, they have to win a 50/50 mindgame and a 50/50 coinflip at the same time.
It's worth noting that Protect/Detect/Endure has a 1/3 chance of succeeding the 2nd time, not 50%. (https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/blob/master/data/statuses.js#L353-L373 ). Anyways, as I said, relying on a 50/50 (and/or luck) means it is not a good counter and should not be used as a counter example.

edit: I just realized: counter-example, example of a counter
don't worry i hate myself
 
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Sorry for double post, but this would probably get buried otherwise and I don't like editing arguments into my posts.

Mega Salamence is literally S rank in Ubers (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...last-updated-post-733-b-c-discussion.3535106/ ) This means that it's one of the best Pokemon that was deemed too good for OU. Now I know 1v1 isn't OU or Ubers, but it just goes to show how dangerous Salamence is against a wide variety of Pokémon. While being S rank in Ubers does not automatically mean it should be banned from 1v1 as they are separate tiers, it's still important to keep in mind that it is comparable to Xerneas, Arceus-Normal, and Ho-Oh. It has very few if any counters in 1v1 (and I'm talking true counters, not just that they beat the most common set) and thus is a huge pain to prepare for in 1v1. Unlike Mawile, Kyurem-Black, Greninja, and similar very good 1v1 mons, there is a very small subset of Pokemon that are viable in 1v1 and also effective at dealing with this beast of a Pokémon, as others have argued.

Salamence has incredible versatility because of its ridiculous stats (offensively and defensively). Seriously, this thing has 145 Attack. That's 5 points short of Zekrom. On top of that, it can wallbreak with its 120 Special Attack, which is tied with Shaymin-Sky! On top of that, it has respectable 95/130/90 bulk, which is comparable to Dialga's 100/120/100 bulk. As if that wasn't enough, it has 120 speed (which is tied with Arceus and if fully invested, faster than Modest Greninja). This thing has RIDICULOUS stats for 1v1.
And that's without even talking about Aerilate. Aerilate is ridiculous in and of itself for Mence in 1v1. Giga Impact and Hyper Beam, two moves that are mediocre in standard play due to the recharge turn, are close to freely usable in 1v1 because, well, there's only one Pokemon to kill. Giga Impact and Hyper Beam have 150 base power, and then that gets multiplied by 1.3 for the Aerilate boost, and then 1.5 for STAB on top of that, resulting in a humongous 292.5 power! Coming off of 145 Atk or 120 SpA! And Flying type is great offensively in just about any tier!

tl;dr: Great Speed tier + respectable bulk + terrific offensive stats + AERILATE + very few counters = Mega Salamence. How is this thing not banned yet?
In any case, it still has a pretty decent chance of beating mence, and I'd be surprised if a mence player who didn't know the set were to beat it.
So in other words it's a gimmick as it will no longer work reliably if your opponent knows the set. What if the opponent runs into you on the ladder again? As I said, this is not a counter, it should not be used in this argument as a reason why M-Mence isn't broken. End of story.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Sorry for double post, but this would probably get buried otherwise and I don't like editing arguments into my posts.
What arguments? If I wanted to read the smogdex I'd read the smogdex, there's literally no substance here. The way things go on paper don't equate with how they actually perform (Bastiodon, Slaking, whatever). Why not actually talk about why it's broken/overcentralizing instead of listing random facts that don't push the argument forward?
Sorry if I'm calling out a joke post, I honestly can't tell.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Sorry for double post, but this would probably get buried otherwise and I don't like editing arguments into my posts.

Mega Salamence is literally S rank in Ubers (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...last-updated-post-733-b-c-discussion.3535106/ ) This means that it's one of the best Pokemon that was deemed too good for OU. Now I know 1v1 isn't OU or Ubers, but it just goes to show how dangerous Salamence is against a wide variety of Pokémon. While being S rank in Ubers does not automatically mean it should be banned from 1v1 as they are separate tiers, it's still important to keep in mind that it is comparable to Xerneas, Arceus-Normal, and Ho-Oh. It has very few if any counters in 1v1 (and I'm talking true counters, not just that they beat the most common set) and thus is a huge pain to prepare for in 1v1. Unlike Mawile, Kyurem-Black, Greninja, and similar very good 1v1 mons, there is a very small subset of Pokemon that are viable in 1v1 and also effective at dealing with this beast of a Pokémon, as others have argued.
As it happens, Mega Salamence is only B+ rank in AG, below M-Gengar which as we all know is a pretty bad mon to use in 1v1. My point is that the metagame is largely responsible for Mega Salamence's rank in Ubers, and like I've been saying for the past 3 pages we should not think of 1v1 like traditional singles metagames given how different it is. I have argued that it is dissimilar to traditional metagames to a similar degree to DOU, and I haven't yet seen a counter-argument to that. So why people keep theorymonning as though it's exactly the same is beyond me.

It has very few counters in 1v1, perhaps. But please, show me a 100% counter for Kyurem-B, or Charizard, or Mawile, and we'll talk. They're all capable of running weird sets that can beat any mon they choose, be it Specs Kyu-B, Counter Zard, or whatever. I don't see M-Mence as different to this. I don't see M-Mence as harder to beat than these. There's a large group of mons that beat the standard set, and a far smaller group of mons that can consistently beat the huge number of sets out there that they could possibly ever have run. I don't think that, if you were to ignore theorymonning and play on the ladder, the first thing you'd suggest for suspect would be mega mence. And I don't think that Mega Mence is really so hard to check, in a way that you can be confident you'll beat 98% of them. Sure, you can run Hydro Pump on mence, but nobody does because it'd be useful in so few circumstances. The number of times Rhyperior would lose to Mega Mence are insignificant in the long run, so I don't see why shouting "hydro pump" is a good argument for banning mence.

Salamence has incredible versatility because of its ridiculous stats (offensively and defensively). Seriously, this thing has 145 Attack. That's 5 points short of Zekrom. On top of that, it can wallbreak with its 120 Special Attack, which is tied with Shaymin-Sky! On top of that, it has respectable 95/130/90 bulk, which is comparable to Dialga's 100/120/100 bulk. As if that wasn't enough, it has 120 speed (which is tied with Arceus and if fully invested, faster than Modest Greninja). This thing has RIDICULOUS stats for 1v1.
And that's without even talking about Aerilate. Aerilate is ridiculous in and of itself for Mence in 1v1. Giga Impact and Hyper Beam, two moves that are mediocre in standard play due to the recharge turn, are close to freely usable in 1v1 because, well, there's only one Pokemon to kill. Giga Impact and Hyper Beam have 150 base power, and then that gets multiplied by 1.3 for the Aerilate boost, and then 1.5 for STAB on top of that, resulting in a humongous 292.5 power! Coming off of 145 Atk or 120 SpA! And Flying type is great offensively in just about any tier!
Slaking has base 160 Attack. (I don't know why that's bolded, but apparently it's important.) That's only 10 points short of Mega Garchomp. (Wait. Mega Garchomp isn't even good.) On top of that, its decent base 95 Special Attack allows it to OHKO Rhyperior with Water Pulse! On top of that, it has respectable 150/100/65 bulk, which is comparable to Snorlax's 160/65/110 bulk. And if that weren't enough, it can use a Choice Band to give it a decent chance of OHKOing Chansey. This thing has RIDICULOUS stats for 1v1.

Perhaps we should look at things within the context of the metagame as a whole, rather than theorymonning things in a vaccuum? I have no problem with getting basic ideas of how good a mon will be, but I honestly haven't found megamence difficult to deal with in practice.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Slaking has base 160 Attack. (I don't know why that's bolded, but apparently it's important.) That's only 10 points short of Mega Garchomp. (Wait. Mega Garchomp isn't even good.) On top of that, its decent base 95 Special Attack allows it to OHKO Rhyperior with Water Pulse! On top of that, it has respectable 150/100/65 bulk, which is comparable to Snorlax's 160/65/110 bulk. And if that weren't enough, it can use a Choice Band to give it a decent chance of OHKOing Chansey. This thing has RIDICULOUS stats for 1v1.

Perhaps we should look at things within the context of the metagame as a whole, rather than theorymonning things in a vaccuum? I have no problem with getting basic ideas of how good a mon will be, but I honestly haven't found megamence difficult to deal with in practice.
oh man! incredible. you tell someone to stop shitposting then you shitpost...okay...im not a 1v1er much, but lets just jump to the elephant of the room to your argument: whats slakings ability again? oh..right...truant. remove truant, and suddenly slaking is banworthy, if it wasnt for its ability nullifying it as a threat. salamence has an ability that pretty much makes it even better. what type of fucking argument is this? no shit slaking is bad dispite its amazing stats. its ability literally turns it into a sitting duck. why dont you take opposing arguments seriously instead of acting like a big asshole, because as a outsider, id surely ignore your opinion if i wanted to partake in this argument. i don't care if your opponents points are bad. i care how good YOURS are. instead of trying to act like your mister know-it-all, which you clearly aren't if not a lot of people are supporting you, you really shouldn't say shit like this, because it really doesn't solidify any point other then the fact that your being an asshole.
 
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DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
oh man! incredible. you tell someone to stop shitposting then you shitpost...okay...im not a 1v1er much, but lets just jump to the elephant of the room to your argument: whats slakings ability again? oh..right...truant. remove truant, and suddenly slaking is banworthy, if it wasnt for its ability nullifying it as a threat. salamence has an ability that pretty much makes it even better. what type of fucking argument is this? no shit slaking is bad dispite its amazing stats. its ability literally turns it into a sitting duck. why dont you take opposing arguments seriously instead of acting like a big asshole, because as a outsider, id surely ignore your opinion if i wanted to partake in this argument. i don't care if your opponents points are bad. i care how good YOURS are. instead of trying to act like your mister know-it-all, which you clearly aren't if not a lot of people are supporting you, you really shouldn't say shit like this, because it really doesn't solidify any point other then the fact that your being an asshole.
Yeah, Slaking isn't good, congrats. I summed up what I was saying when I said:
Perhaps we should look at things within the context of the metagame as a whole, rather than theorymonning things in a vaccuum? I have no problem with getting basic ideas of how good a mon will be, but I honestly haven't found megamence difficult to deal with in practice.
I don't think this was an unreasonable point, and I don't think using an example to back it up was entirely unfair. I'm also not sure saying that my points are bad because nobody's supporting me is true either, given it's a rather obvious appeal to popularity.

I've said before, I'd happily vote to ban Mence if people could give me a good, justified reason to. However as it stands it's an easier mon to deal with than things like Kyu-B, and there are plenty of mons capable of beating it.
 
As much as I find this whole argument here to be a mess, I would like to throw in one question as a little coal on the furnace to try nudge it a little;

Tell me why I should NOT use Mega Salamence as one of my three mons in 1v1?

I'd like to be convinced not to use it, cause like, personally, the only reason I've so far gotten on my mind is presence of Kyurem-B, but even then, its not always an issue considering how solid this guy is.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Yeah, Slaking isn't good, congrats. I summed up what I was saying when I said:

I don't think this was an unreasonable point, and I don't think using an example to back it up was entirely unfair. I'm also not sure saying that my points are bad because nobody's supporting me is true either, given it's a rather obvious appeal to popularity.

I've said before, I'd happily vote to ban Mence if people could give me a good, justified reason to. However as it stands it's an easier mon to deal with than things like Kyu-B, and there are plenty of mons capable of beating it.
ok...? so how does that make the slaking point any more relivant then it isnt right now? i mean, my point still stands that you had no point with slaking... so your saying mega salamence is bad because slaking is bad? are you implying slaking is good? i dont see how "looking at the context of the meta with theorymon" helps your point of slaking=mega mence in any form and as i said, only implys you were trying to shitpost his point. i mean, its not like these people are calling out for a suspect because they dont play 1v1 you know.

looking at all arguments/counter arguments provided so far...this is what ive been getting from both sides:

pro ban: S ranked in ubers, implying salamence often wins in a 1v1 scenario which can show why it could possibly be banworthy here. plus mence has the base stats of some of the most prominent ubers.
con ban: this is a stupid argument because this is 1v1. and high stats mean nothing if the mons not good.
(both of these are pretty bad arguments to be fair)

con ban: ice type moved scarfers beat it, etc.
pro ban: but that argument can be applied to any uber like rayquaza. centralizing the meta around scarfers and ice beam doesn't suddenly make it not broken. especially when in total only ~6 common things meet this criteria
(i kinda agree with pro ban on this point but i do understand 1v1 lets scarfs don the name "Counter")

pro ban: mence can throw out random moves/sets to catch would be counters off guard
con ban: implying they run those sets to begin with, considering they arent used much
(you guys make a good point, but i mean, the idea of catching something off guard, is doing just that, it means your "counter" no longer gains that status. and thus, the "off guard" is still something to consider, losing because someone runs EV's to tank your one counters ice beam is pretty big. even if it sounds bad on paper...aside from brick break...thats just bad.)

and so on. basically, so far, ive seen hardly any relivant arguments on your side to keeping it in. and while some of these arguments on the pro ban aren't all that amazing, it sure is better then half the stuff on your side. saying "scarf ice beam wins" is not a argument for something staying. and yeah, i understand in 1v1 this is a different case in that a scarf CAN be a counter, BUT as they mentioned, not many good pokemon run scarf ice beam. and even the ones that do, mence can find ways around (are you forgetting regular mence can bait these things with its own scarf/yache set and ohko usual mega mence counters?)

idk, im not some pro in 1v1, so i could be completely wrong. im just saying, as a person who has played just barely enough to understand 1v1, but not enough to be considered skilled, saying they haven't given any good justified reasons, when they have, and you in turn, have provided no more good arguments AGAINST its ban. you guys are pretty much at a standstill right now. in the end, i guess it goes down to "what the community wants" considering everyones opinions here are only 1% of the overall outcome. and considering nobody has provided good opinions(again, coming from a neutral stance of the matter) its probably going to just come down to "what everyone wants". and even if your right, or they are, it still goes down to "What everyone wants".
 
What arguments? If I wanted to read the smogdex I'd read the smogdex, there's literally no substance here. The way things go on paper don't equate with how they actually perform (Bastiodon, Slaking, whatever). Why not actually talk about why it's broken/overcentralizing instead of listing random facts that don't push the argument forward?
Sorry if I'm calling out a joke post, I honestly can't tell.
Fair enough, I suppose I didn't really post any arguments. I guess that post was just to reinforce the arguments that others have made with some stat comparisons. My thoughts have already been posted by others in the thread, and my intention with that post was to reply to Articuno I's post while also adding a bit to the conversation, but I guess I didn't do that...

Anyways, please disregard my previous post.
 
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Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
You talk about needing to change the meta by possibly banning pokemon, but according to you and Articuno I not even the most broken (Mega Salamence) is deserving of a ban.


How could you possibly know with such accuracy how the meta will change after a bunch of bans? What is the "broken factor" in 1v1, and what does contribute to it? I'm trying to start a discussion of potentially broken pokes in 1v1 and you're deciding that they aren't, just because. Why would the meta be more dull if it had a wider diversity (which is what I'm arguing would happen in a non-Ubers setting) of available viable pokes?


Let's take a moment and apply what you said to the Ubers tier.

"In each metagame we have the OU Pokemon and the UU Pokemmon and we don't ban OU Pokemon just for the sake to make UU Pokemon appreciated and used, there's such thing called OU that could be played on the ladder if bored of facing the same threats over and over again. But even with the presence of powerful top tier Pokemon in Ubers, OU and lower tier Pokemon can still outshine them, example being that Amoonguss can beat Xerneas, or Skarmory can beat Arceus. This is the magic of Ubers that you have to create sets that has a great matchup against most of the metagame taking into consideration low tier and top tier Pokemon. Yes, I find Ubers dull to the same Pokemon repeating themselves on ladder but No, I don't agree banning them would solve the problem and if people think such Pokemon are broken and destroy their teams with ease, well we need to think outside the box. There's plenty of Pokemon in Ubers with niches that aren't discovered yet. ... let's not forget Ferrothorn that can take on lot of threats, so we just need to find niches about every OU and lower Pokemon and they will have the right to be counted as top tier checks. A team with Ferrothorn, Mega Sableye and Clefable can fare good in the ladder and thus without using a team of only top ranked Pokemon. And because we have the power to ban something we shouldn't go ban happy and restrict our wide metagame to mere Pokemon that are counted nowadays underused or in a different category useless."
The OU pokemon of Ubers would in this case be pokes such as Arceus, Xerneas, Kyogre, and Rayquaza for example. Are you seeing the point I'm trying to make now? Your logic would still apply to the Ubers tier and does nothing to refute what I've been saying at all. I've been saying that we have a few pokes in 1v1 right now that are much better than the rest of the pokes in the meta. Why should 1v1 be Ubers rather than OU?
The difference between OU and Ubers is that OU is a wider tier that allows much more pokes to be viable, and a huge deal of pokes from lower tiers are viable in OU compared to how much from lower tiers is viable in Ubers.



The difference with Mega Salamence from other pokes is mainly its broken stats, and not to mention its amazing ability, Aerilate, that works well with its flying type. Pokemon with stats like Mega Salamence and Kyurem-Black (700 BST and the likes) get judged much more strictly, and get banned to Ubers unless there's something holding them back, if not, there would be no reason not to use them (which is the case in 1v1). There should be a compelling reason to keep them, rather looking for a compelling reason to ban, because that reason already exists, which is their base stats. And why is that? Because those stats are far above the rest of the pokes, which makes the game unfair. Why use pokes of lower stats when you can use broken stats? Kyurem-Black for example is not banned from OU because it lacks good ice type STAB, and Hoopa-U gets destroyed by the slightest physical attack. Kyurem-Black however is much stronger in 1v1, because it can run among other sets, choice item sets, which don't have nearly the same repercussions as they would have for it in OU.
There is nothing about 1v1 that makes Mega Salamence any less banworthy than from OU. It pulls off whatever role it has been assigned, and will in the process also beat a significant portion of pokes just because of its broken stats. And the fact that it has checks and counters should not be a reason not to ban, because as i keep repeating, all pokes have checks and counters. Otherwise, why not unban Rayquaza, it would probably have the same checks and counters as Mega Salamence? But Rayquaza is banned because it, as Mega Salamence, takes out a significant portion of pokes, regardless of their roles, stats, or strats, just because of its broken stats, and the same goes for Kyurem-Black. The reason people don't complain about Kyurem-Black is that the meta has adjusted to it, and has access to other broken pokes such as Mega Mawile to deal with it.

Now as for some of the pokes you mentioned that should check Mega Salamence, Porygon-2 would need to run Ice Beam, which arguably would make it lose a bunch of other match-ups, and would still lose to a special HP invested MegaMence with Hyper Voice and Hyper Beam if physically defensive, Return and Giga Impact physical MegaMence if specially defensive, and to a mixed MegaMence set if mixed defenses. Anything (besides multi turn attacks) + Earthquake would beat Air Balloon Heatran, while Heatran wouldn't do enough damage. Mega Steelix would lose to Earthquake or Fire Blast, while not being able to do enough damage. Diancie would lose to Iron Tail (which MegaMence sometimes runs just to spite fairy types). Ampharos would get outsped and 2HKO'd while not being able to OHKO MegaMence, and if Ampharos relies on the move Counter, it could lose to substitute MegaMence. MegaMence could use Dragon Dance on the 1st turn vs Aegislash, and could OHKO Aegislash-Blade at +2 atk. Aegislash-Blade needs to use King's Shield at turn 2 if it attacked turn 1, or it would get OHKO'd, meanwhile MegaMence could use Dragon Dance again, Aegislash simply does not have the damage output to reliably KO MegaMence. And if the Aegislash has Air-Balloon, then a Fire Blast MegaMence could 2HKO it without any Weakness Policy repercussions. The point we've been trying to make is that to the contrary of what you're saying, MegaMence does not have reliable answers that don't care about its set. You're basically pulling at straws here trying to justify keeping a poke that destroys such a large portion of available pokes and restricts teambuilding by listing a few checks.


Well, here we go again with justifying the unban of another uber by listing arguably broken pokes that inhabit the meta right now. This is another pointer as to why 1v1 has become a mini ubers. We have all of these arguably broken pokes, so why not unban another, right? Mega Salamence, Kyurem-Black, and to a lesser extent, the mega Charizards are all pokes I've mentioned being contributors to this ubers state right now.
And regarding the pokes you mentioned that beat Blaziken, is that the standard we set for what pokes should be allowed? A list of a few pokes, some of which are on specific sets?
And what do most of these pokes have in common? They resist Blaziken's STAB(s) while their own STAB(s) are super effective against Blaziken.
  • faster trace pokemon, AKA Alakazam: one of the fastest pokes with Super Effective STAB against Blaziken, outsped and OHKO'd unless using Trace
  • Salamence-Mega: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Flying STAB, arguably the most broken poke in the meta right now
  • Victini: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Psychic STAB, also outsped and OHKO'd by Earthquake or Stone Edge if not using Choice Scarf
  • Hoopa-U: has super effective Psychic STAB, also limited to a specific set of Choice Scarf, loses otherwise
  • Bulky Kyurem-Black: arguably broken poke, restricted to a bulky set, which loses to Blaziken anyway:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 474-560 (104.4 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 413-486 (90.9 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
  • Bulky Charizard-X: one of the pokes that contributes to this ubers state I'm trying to discuss, loses if not using a bulky set
  • Rhyperior: has Super Effective Ground STAB, one of the few viable pokes that can live a STAB its weak to, and yet can still be OHKO'd by Blaziken:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 393-465 (90.5 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
  • Slowbro-Mega: resists both STABs while both its STAB's are Super Effective, one of the bulkiest possible pokes, especially in the Defense stat, which is more likely to be relevant vs Blaziken
  • Jellicent: resists Blaziken's Fire STAB while immune to its Fighting STAB, while having Super Effective Water STAB, can lose to Thunder Punch coverage anyway if not fully HP/Def invested and running Acid Armor.
  • Mandibuzz: OHKO'd by Life Orb Stone Edge Blaziken after 1 Swords Dance, while not being able to OHKO Blaziken itself
  • Gyarados: has Super Effective Water STAB, loses to Thunder Punch if it used Dragon Dance, outsped and OHKO'd if it uses Waterfall vs Protect, OHKO'd by High Jump Kick if it goes Mega with the same scenario of using Dragon Dance or not vs using Protect or not
  • Latios: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Psychic STAB, and yet still loses to Blaziken's insane coverage if not holding a Choice Scarf after a Speed Boost Protect:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 343-406 (113.9 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Such pokes exist for pretty much any poke that could be brought up for discussion. And the ones you mentioned are restricted to very specific sets, while some of them don't even beat Blaziken at all.
Meanwhile it beats a significant enough portion of other common and less common pokes to be banworthy, thanks to its amazing coverage, ability to outspeed thanks to Speed Boost, while also being able to run Swords Dance.
You wanna talk about what it does to some of the less used pokes? I'll list some of the pokes I use, which are very viable against the current meta.
  • Mega Venusaur: 2HKO'd by Life Orb or Choice Band Brave Bird
  • Entei: outsped and OHKO'd by Earthquake or Stone Edge
  • Dusclops: destroyed by any physical Blaziken set
  • Porygon 2: destroyed by Fighting STAB
  • Magnezone: destroyed by STAB or Earthquake, the Weakness Policy Magnezone set is played around by using a non-Super effective coverage 1st, while Magnezone can't OHKO Blaziken
You can fare well with these pokes even against this uber state meta (the magic of 1v1), are you telling me that these pokes should be rendered less relevant?
Even if that was OK, what about the rest of the common pokes that get rendered way less relevant? Just for the sake of bringing another poke that can go toe to toe with or even destroy the most used and overly powered pokes that we have right now in the meta?


I'm not arguing that they should be banned without any proof, I'm suggesting discussing a ban for them as they very likely are broken in this meta, with the fact that some of them are in the uber tier taken as a strong hint and indicator that they are broken. And regarding the checks and counters you mentioned, they are arguably broken too, which only helps prove how broken Deo-D is. Also, the trick user would need to outspeed, and the faster Taunt user would need to be a relevant poke (there aren't many), which also would need some way of KO'ing the Deo without being KO'd istelf by Mirror Coat or Counter.


As with Dream Eater Gengar , your logic could be applied to the Ubers tier.

"If all the mons in Ubers are countered by other mons in Ubers, clearly the metagame is, at least to some extent, balanced."
And you're right, it is to some extent balanced, but my point is that it would be much more diverse, and teambuilding would be much less restricted if the meta wasn't ubers. So contrary to what you said, I am suggesting the bans for no other reason than to balance the meta.

You mean aside from the actual reasons LaxLapras and I provided?


Obviously if you've accepted the meta as it is then it would be hard to accept any ban at all, just as how pretty much nothing gets banned from Ubers. So let me ask you this: Do you want Rayquaza to remain banned from 1v1, and if so, why?
Oh man I am so tired of anti-ban saying "tell me why it should be banned" and just ignoring everything pro-ban says. Rumplestiltskin practicallly wrote a page outlining pro-ban arguments, and it largely went ignored. Like please read above its a really well thought out post and if you actually disagree with his points please say why his points aren't valid for a ban, instead of using another mon for comparison or saying we haven't provided reasons.
 
It has very few counters in 1v1, perhaps. But please, show me a 100% counter for Kyurem-B, or Charizard, or Mawile, and we'll talk.
You don't think its a problem that a select few pokemon in the metagame are so good and flexible they totally lack 100% counters? And that because of this it is hard to justify using a team without at least one of these threats? Okay. But hey maybe you are right and all these pokemon belong in 1v1, but some or all them might not belong in balanced 1v1 metagame. So i don't really find this argument to be all that great.

Perhaps we should look at things within the context of the metagame as a whole, rather than theorymonning things in a vaccuum? I have no problem with getting basic ideas of how good a mon will be, but I honestly haven't found megamence difficult to deal with in practice.
Ummm, isn't 1v1 a matchup between two pokemon in a vaccum. I mean i get what ur saying, but this isn't OU (your words btw). You can get away with running "bad things" and gimmicks more often cause you only need to beat one pokemon. Isn't that why you can get away with running custap endure Sylveon? Because you don't have to beat anymore then 1 pokemon? So i can probably get away with running Hydro Pump on a Special Mega Mence set to make sure i beat rock types like Rhyperior. And yeah there is "better" coverage or move options, which is one of the things that makes Mega Salamence so good. You would think things like Mega Mawile and Mega Metagross would be good against Mega Salamence, but EQ and Fire Blast are incredibly common. So they often lose, unless Mega Metagross runs Ice Punch. Cause you know a bulk, fast and tough claws boosted steel threat like Mega Metagross should have to run Ice Punch to beat a Dragon/Flying type. And yeah adapting to the meta is a thing, but its discomforting to know that something that matchups up so well against Mega Mence on paper still has to run Ice Punch to win. Hence why Rhyperior losing to Hydro Pump feels so significant. If Rhyperior was a hard counter, Mega Mence would be more balanced, since you should be able to fall back on a Rock/Ground type with monster defense and HP to counter Mega Mence. But nope hydro pump is a thing. Therefore, if you want to safely beat one of the most common threats on the ladder, you need to fall back on Scarf/Fast Ice Beams and one or two other sets, which restricts teambuilding.

And while you might feel its no too difficult to deal with, that is literally no reason to not ban Mega Mence.
As much as I find this whole argument here to be a mess, I would like to throw in one question as a little coal on the furnace to try nudge it a little;

Tell me why I should NOT use Mega Salamence as one of my three mons in 1v1?

I'd like to be convinced not to use it, cause like, personally, the only reason I've so far gotten on my mind is presence of Kyurem-B, but even then, its not always an issue considering how solid this guy is.
This is a wonderful point. Mega Mence has literally one drawback, and fantastic physical, special, and defensive sets. I"m very curious to hear reasons why it shouldn't always be included in a team.

I've said before, I'd happily vote to ban Mence if people could give me a good, justified reason to. However as it stands it's an easier mon to deal with than things like Kyu-B, and there are plenty of mons capable of beating it.
We gave you tons of reasons with justification. You ignored most of them. Its statisically far better then the average, with no drawbacks to reign it in. Expansive movepool and can run any number of sets, even Iron Defense stall. It restricts teambuilding because you basically need Scarf Ice Beam or a tanky as hell mon with Ice coverage. Mega Mence is a better pokemon then most ubers, notably Rayquaza. There are hardly any reasons to not run Mega Mence. A random standard team with Mega Mence is always better then one without. We have hit pretty much come up with every reason why Mega Mence can de defined as broken, short of dropping a pile of replays in the thread. We also brought evidence and comparisons to back it up. And you ignored most of points and continued to spout rhetoric about how its "counterable enough," "not too difficult to deal with" "not better than Kyu-B" "why would you ever run a lure to beat one thing." These aren't strong arguments at all, and are for the most part subjective. Yet you continue to insist we haven't given you a good enough reason. Which, quite frankly, is really damn annoying. Another pet peeve of mine is you have mentioned we shouldn't apply OU tiering policy to 1v1, yet you have not suggested how we might define broken pokemon in 1v1 instead. So do you have something objective counter arguments to our claims? Or will you admit that we have given you a "good, justified reason?"
 

DEG

Oh simple thing, where have you gone?
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Been busy so I can't/won't write anything long but can we like stop using Mega Mence sets and spread just for the sake of countering a Pokemon suggested it degrades the discussion tbh. Why would I use spdf mence and open a wider hole on my team just because something suggested here can be countered. If that was the system everything could counter everything, I could use defensives spread on everything and say Blaziken is unban worthy because lot of defensive things can counter it. But that's not the point we want to get to eh? There's lot of drawbacks for Mega salamence and we have also mentioned them which balance it's viablity. Its 7am maybe I'm flawed.
 

Rosa

Merry Kerosene
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I'd like to talk about the main form of Mega Salamence's counters, Ice beam.

First, which mons are even viable with Ice Beam? Well, there's Kyurem-Black, Porygon-Z, and Greninja, and Mega Slowbro for the adventurous type, but that's a rare set, so I won't dwell on it.
Second, why are they viable with Ice Beam? "To beat dragon and ground types, duh" Well, if you look at the viability rankings, there are only so many mons that would classifiably "require" Ice Beam to be beaten, one of which being: Salamence-Mega.
Third, what makes Salamence such a standout over the others? Well, its raw bulk, of course!
-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Salamence blatantly eats up an Outrage from Scarfed Kyurem-Black, which is one of the few "safe" sets to beat Salamence, ultimately mandating Kyube to pack Ice Beam in order to put a stop to it, but does it really need Ice Beam for anything else? Garchomp and Dragonite have no chance of standing up to an Outrage from this thing; Rhyperior can be taken out with it, then again what Rhyperior doesn't run EVs to tank a ScarfRem Ice Beam? Ice Beam does just a tad more damage than Iron Head to a Whimsicott, yes, but it is ultimately capable of being PP stalled with Protect and Substitute. And that's literally it, without adding just a few more mons from B rank and below.
Well, what about Porygon-Z? It doesn't even need Ice Beam to OHKO Salamence! While it may be true that Porygon-Z's Hyper Beam can OHKO the usual Salamence sets, Salamence just needs some EVs in Special Defense and HP, and all of a sudden, it stands up to an Adaptability boosted Hyper Beam!
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Mega Salamence: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This much investment into Salamence's Special bulk may seem like it's asking a lot, but Salamence still has the Nature buff, raw stats, and Aerilate backing it up so that it can still do a relatively large number of the same things that the generally used Salamence set can do; ultimately mandating Ice Beam to be present in Porygon-Z's moveset if it wants the greatest chance at stopping this thing.​
Greninja is arguably the biggest Ice Beam user of the bunch, right? Well, if we look at the viability rankings again, it shows that the only thing that having Ice Beam on Greninja is useful for is Dragonite (assuming no bulk) without going into D rank and lower mons, since Whimsicott just PP stalls, Togekiss either OHKO's with scarfed Dazzling Gleam or just straight up bulks it with the Thunder Wave set, and Non-Bulky Mega Altaria is OHKO'd by Hyper Beam almost just as well as it is by Ice Beam.

You may not think about it all that much since we're all so used to Ice being one of the best coverage types in overall Pokemon, but in 1v1, it is almost literally Mega Salamence alone that requires its counters to carry Ice Beam when they could've instead been using that extra slot on something that widens their coverage better.
If the best counters for Salamence out of them all are practically required to consume a move slot for the sake of beating this single Pokemon alongside maybe one or two significantly less common mons, should it still be allowed?
 
Suspect Test

We are testing Mega Salamence, Blaziken, and Mega Blaziken. The test will run for 2 weeks and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are required to make a fresh alt as we are using the current ladder. I will check the registration date of your alt and it should be registered today or later. Once you've achieved the requirements, post in this thread a screenshot of your /rank. Voting will happen once the test ends. Make sure to use these three Pokemon as much as possible!

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Giga Impact
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Protect
- Overheat
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Ice

Blaziken @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- High Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)
 

DEG

Oh simple thing, where have you gone?
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I take back everything I said about Blaziken, It's disgusting and shouldn't be allowed.

I'll try to find time and analyse suspected Pokemon, but I'm not sure if I'll do that this time unless someone helps me so if you want shout me a PM.
 

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