That's what I said, "The TrickChoice pokes". They have Trick for beating almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, and 3 other moves for everything else. And like I've said in an earlier post, the pokes that can utilize TrickChoice are too many to ban, and most of them could be beaten by an abundance of different strategies if it wasn't for Trick.
OK whatever. If you think that there are sooooo many things that are banworthy, why would you ever wait to post this? Clearly the meta is in a terrible state because there are so many banworthy things. This is just further proof of how exaggerated your claims are. Of course your posts get tons of like from people who fall to your rhetoric. If you can prove that everything you say is actually true, then of course Trick Choice is banworthy. But a lot of your claims are incorrect, and by deluding yourself into thinking this way you have basically stopped this thread from being capable of talking about anything else. So let me just disprove your points one last time.
What I meant was that 1v1 wasn't a rock-paper-scissors metagame before the team preview change, just as a sidenote. And while it is a rock-paper-scissors metagame right now, not all teams force a rock-paper-scissors situation, because while extremely more difficult to do now, some teams can still get beaten by a single poke. However, if a team has 1 TrickChoice poke you are instantly way more restricted in finding a counter, and this pretty much guarantees a rock-paper-scissors situation. Also another thing to note, even if you think you've built a team, once you pick your poke that poke becomes your whole team. So once again we need to make sure there are no unfair battles, even if you could have picked something else to avoid that battle.
Make sure there are no unfair battles? How is that even possible? What if I pick Abomasnow because he has three Sturdy mons? That will be an unfair battle. This statememnt doesn't make any sense so I'll just skip over it.
Indeed what you are saying is right in that "everything has some counters", and the counters for the TrickChoice pokes are extremely fewer than the counters and potential counters for everything else. Also, you are classifying almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move as "some things" and that is not something as trivial as just "some things". And I have already listed many reasons why TrickChoice is broken, you're just ignoring them with that statement.
Once again you talk about the TrickChoice
pokes being broken, which may be true. Of course, if Trick Choice really beat "almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move", a phrase that you have said a trillion times without proof, it is broken. You just reiterate this statement against anything anyone else says and then say Trick Choice is broken. Whatever.
That's exactly the kind of entitled thinking that I'm trying to shed some light into. Choiced pokes have taken that chance of losing to something like Disable on purpose in order to gain an advantage in speed or power and that's a choice they will have to live with. Also, Disable by itself doesn't beat all choiced pokes. Firstly, you might need to have a set that's able to deal some form of damage because because 1 Disable is 4 turns, and not all pokes die to 4 struggle recoils because of odd HP values. Secondly, you need to have a poke that can take a hit and use Disable or outspeed and use Disable, while also not being KO'd to the struggle hits. So it's not as easy as just slapping Disable on a poke and expecting to beat all choiced pokes. Meanwhile TrickChoice is exactly that, just put 3 coverage moves on a raw power poke and slap on a Trick to count a majority of pokes and sets out of the equation.
So basically anything that can live a hit and a struggle and deal 1 damage in return is not common? Assuming that something can live one hit is entitled thinking? Ok nice pun with choice XD but otherwise Disable beats every choiced mon if you fulfill a few simple criterion. Then you say Trick Choice is even better with once again, your unsubstantiated claim.
You are being very narrow minded if you think that giving something that relies on more than 1 move more speed or potentially more power will make any relevant difference. I've already mentioned some strategies that rely on more than 1 move in my
initial post and almost none of them can turn the match-up around by that 1.5x boost in speed or 1.5x boost in spA or Atk if even receiving the relevant stat by the choice item.
I'm being narrow minded by saying that? I went through a bunch of different scenarios in my post.
- It doesn't matter that Taunt lasts three turns because they can't recover in between. All you need to be able to do is 3HKO them and not get 3HKOd yourself (or if they use a status move turn 1 they have to 2HKO you). If you trick them, the boosted speed means if they 3HKO you and you 2HKO them, you still lose, or the boosted power means you lose as well.
So yes, giving something more power or speed makes a difference unless it is a stall, and you have said time and time again that it beats "almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move", which consists of more than stall. Let's look at all those strategies.
- Stall (replays have been shown of chansey beating trick meloetta so it isn't an auto win)
- Defensive setup (not really sure about the difference between this and stall, but let's say for example they have Mega Slowbro. Oh Wait you can't even trick that. Calm mind Sableye? No. Curse snorlax or something random like that? It depends on the trick user as Body Slam is pretty damn strong, so once again it isn't an auto win. For example, some meloetta sets will lose to spdef curse lax 1v1.)
- Offensive Setup (No way. Especially with the power or speed boost you are not going to beat them. For example, Smash Crustle is a 50-50 vs PZ, but beats the oher two listed trick mons every time. And other mons that are stronger but have weaker setup moves will do even better.)
- Wear down strategies (if they are offensive wear down mons, they beat you if you trick them a choice item, as they get their offense or speed boosted. Otherwise I would describe it as stall, which we have already discussed, you don't always beat, and that isn't even sufficient reason to ban.)
-Coverage moves + a priority move (How the hell are you beating this? If the coverage move 2HKOs you with the priority move, and you can't OHKO in return, you lose. Tricking is completely pointless in this scenario as it wastes a move and gives them the ability to outspeed or more power to KO even faster. You are not winning this.
- Multi-Move Gimmicks (No example of what on Earth this is, and no explanation why they can't just click their strongest move multiple times)
- Pretty much else beside pure offense and megas (correct me if I'm wrong) (Well, I think you're wrong and I have just corrected you.)
Overall, if you trick, maybe they cant use their priority move, but they don't have to since they just wasted a move. Otherwise any non stall mons win by just clicking their strongest move, and it is a 50-50 at best vs offensive setup. So your ultra exaggerated claims are complete bullshit.
You misunderstood my point. My point is that Taunt stops status moves and that TrickChoice beats almost all non-megas that require the use of more than 1 move, so I hope "Requiring the use of more than 1 move doesn't mean that all or any the moves have to be status moves." makes more sense now.
Taunt also beats stuff that needs only one status move. Taunt is waaay more splashable and more effective vs stall, so the only way your points are valid is if your exaggerated claims are actually true.
First of all, you're assuming that the Taunt poke has relevant damage or damage enough to even 3HKO.
Secondly, like I said, a move like Icy Wind will allow the taunted poke to outspeed another Taunt and possibly recover hp.
OK taunt has flaws. It isn't broken, of course it will have flaws. Back to the relevant discussion.
This replay
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-235003904 proves your statement wrong and that's just one example.
Well that is because your Trick Choice mons are all offensive. An offensive mon (so basically not Mandibuzz) would win in that scenario because most offensive mons can do more than leftovers damage when attacking.
While that may be a difference, I'm arguing that being forced to use megas is overcentralizing. Also a mega won't necessarily stop a TrickChoice poke, as I've kept repeating.
It doesn't force you to use a mega, and the TrickChoice
poke beats you, not the strategy.
The strategy is completely balanced, ask for the individual mons to be banned. I don't know how many times I have to say this, as every time you just respond with the same exaggerated claims.
This is bigger than stall vs TrickChoice, and do you really need replays to understand the concept that TrickChoice beats sets that require more than 1 move? And how common non-mega multi-move requiring sets is irrelevant in this case because we already know that in 1v1 megas and 1-move strats is what's most common. What matters is if the sets that require more than 1 move are viable and if enough of them exist, and the answer to both is yes.
Yes I need replays to understand that. I can't really refute your arguments because it's based on unsubstantiated, overblown claims like this. You make insane claims like "How common it is does matter - Shedinja may beat some teams but it isn't broken. I refuted your examples above, unless you can prove your ultra exaggerated claim, I think this discussion is over.
And that's exactly one of the reasons why TrickChoice (or Trick) should be banned. The TrickChoice pokes are all perfectly viable without Trick, while also getting to use Trick to without effort take out a substantial portion of pokes and strategies for just 1 moveslot.
And that's exactly why you should listen to what I have said a billion times- ask for the Mons to be banned because the strategies themselves sure as hell aren't broken.
I hope we're done here. I hate having to read five paragraphs of the same stuff from someone who doesn't listen to my responses.
