ORAS Doubles Viability Rankings [Nominations]

[thebagman]

Mega Heracross to drop to C+: Yes
Meloetta to rise to C: No
Clefable to rise to C: No
Clefairy to rise to C: No
Hariyama to rise to C+: Yes could prob make B-
Rhydon to rise to C+: Yes
Musharna to drop to D: Yes
Tornadus to drop to C+: Yes

 

[Victorious B.I.G.]

Why is tyranitar so high up in the rankings.
More importantly, why is xzern running a doubles thread that's actually important...

 

[xzern]

• 
  drops to C+
• 
  rises to C
  
• 
  rises to C
  
• 
  rises to C
  
• 
  rises to C+
  
• 
  rises to C+
  
• 
  drops to D
  
• 
  drops to C+

all dat green $_$

now, nominate some pokemans to rise/drop to the S, A+, A, or A- ranks. remember to try to include some actual good reasoning that's just more than one line. kylecole's post on the clefs is an example of a good nomination imo

 

[Bughouse]

k someone plz write good nom posts swapping around Toed, Pert, and Char.

Sun is at least as good as Rain right now, and some consider it notably better. And Sun, inarguably, is better than Rain with Pert, who is tbh pretty meh.

Also Keldeo should probs move up.

 

[Hashtag]

Swampert is not the best choice for a mega on a rain team. i don't understand why people seem to think "oh its the only mega with swift swim, it should be on every rain team."
It is really a worse choice than other swift swimmers like kingdra and ludicolo most of the time, for reasons of
a. it being physical,
b. being slow as balls turn one,
c. taking up a mega space that could be more useful elsewhere.

It has a niche and i have built around it before, which i think was a success, but I would be in favor of dropping it to A- right now, and probably even somewhere in the B ranks in the future.

 

[KyleCole]

sigh I guess I'll do it, but I'm not nominating the swamp drop because I think it's good ;_; anyways..

Char for A+

• Hella strong, you got Heatwave + Overheat + mad coverage Solarbeam, or if you're feeling real you can use X with DD/SD + Dual STAB
• Nice base 100 speed
• sun
• 2nd best mega in this b
• no i didn't forget Diancie
• Real easy to build around and even easier to use

Keldeo for A

• Overrated as all hell but still A- is too low so I'm going with A
• Unique + Effective Water Fighting coverage with great base stats (129 satk, 108 spd)
• Access to cool 3rd move options including Icy Wind, Quick Guard, and Taunt
• that's it
• oh I used scarf once and it's actually pretty good

Edit:
oh yeah also I got more

Garchomp for B+(from A-)

• It's pretty good overall, but in most cases outclassed by Landorus-T unless you already have Intimidate and don't want to stack
• looking cool does not mean you get A rank
• is a free switchin for the aforementioned Lando-T, which means you lose hella momentum against the most common Pokemon in tour games (I haven't and will not consult ladder usage stats)
• has a legit speed tier and good neutral coverage which is why I have B+ and not B or B-

Azumarill for A (from A-)

• This thing is a monster, Kanga + redirect + Belly Azu is literally an archetype of its own
• It is really easy to get opportunities to set up Belly Drum against pretty much any team that isn't sun
• priority AJ makes building around Azu really easy since you don't need to care about TR/TW, and can stick to building your team around solid defensive/offensive synergy
• is a cutie

Tyranitar for B (from A)

• a billion weaknesses
• too slow
• the only benefit to this thing is that it brings sand, but after discussing with Stratos we decided a level 1 Hippopotas is a better setter because at least it gets out of the way after setting sand
• kind of strong and moderately bulky, but not quite strong enough without Mega or a surprise 4x hit (it actually gets great coverage) and bulk isn't all that great when you're stacking so many weaknesses
• is bad & not cutie

 

[Pastelle]

[19:11] +pastelgameboy: idk what to nominate for viability rankings :/
[19:11] %13ulbasaur: lol
[19:11] %13ulbasaur: nominate urself :>

Thanks 13ulbasaur for gr8 idea, but in all seriousness...

Mega Gyarados: A ->A- (or maybe even B+ imo)

• Gains weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, Bug, and Grass, which is dumb
• Loses immunity to Ground, which is also dumb
• Regular Gyarados has better Attack with a Choice Band
• Special set is bad, andt there are better Special Water types to use that are bulkier or can hit harder (ex. Rotom-W, Keldeo, etc.)
• Requires Dragon Dance to be cool enough to justify using
• I can't envision trainers wasting their mega slot on this thing, when other Water types or just regular Gyarados do its job better
• It looks like freaking sushi, and everyone hates food Pokemon (we're looking at you, Vanilluxe)

 

[qwerts]

Ok I use gyarados all the time so I'm sort of bias but what kind of arguments are these.

My love for mega gyarados

• Gains weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, Bug, and Grass, which is dumb

This is the closest thing to a valid point in this post, it also loses its crippling weakness to electric types and isn't weak to one of the most common moves in the game, rock slide. It gains exactly 4 weaknesses and now resists ghost and ice, not a crippling difference.

• Loses immunity to Ground, which is also dumb

Also gains immunity to psychic, is that dumb too?

• Regular Gyarados has better Attack with a Choice Band

Mega Gyarados is used as a DD sweeper, not for straight up damage, two different roles here.

• Special set is kinda cool, but there are better Special Water types to use that are bulkier or can hit harder (ex. Rotom-W, Keldeo, etc.)

Special set... this is like nominating kang for A rank and saying that other special normal types outclass it. Mega Gyarados is not a special attacker and a reason for a drop shouldn't be that it's outclassed by special attackers.

• Requires Dragon Dance to be cool enough to justify using

Yes because coolness is the decisive factor in what is used, anyways if something has a good move why shouldn't it use it, and why should dragon dance, one of the best boosting moves in doubles, be a reason to drop this thing?

• I can't envision trainers wasting their mega slot on this thing, when other Water types or just regular Gyarados do its job better

Barboach, Corphish, Crawdaunt, Croconaw, Feraligatr, Gyarados, Horsea, Kingdra, Lapras, Seadra, Totodile, Whiscash. That's a full list of every water type dragon dance user, and none of them have the bulk or attack to compete with Mega Gyarados in that regard.

• It looks like freaking sushi, and everyone hates food Pokemon (we're looking at you, Vanilluxe)

If we all cared about looks we'd be playing competitive pokemon contests now wouldn't we? I'm actually scared that you decided to put this on a list of reasons for a viability drop.

[19:11] +pastelgameboy: idk what to nominate for viability rankings :/
[19:11] %13ulbasaur: lol
[19:11] %13ulbasaur: nominate urself :>

As cute as 13ulbasaur is please have an actual reason for nominating something other then the fact that you're bored and decided to pick on a fish.

Didn't even cover the significantly increased bulk, a huge reason of why it's successful as a DD sweeper.

 

[Arcticblast]

Honestly, I don't see Mega Gyarados as particularly viable in the meta right now either. One big problem with it is its middling Speed stat and vulnerability to speed control as a Mega. The top four Megas all have ways around most methods of speed control. Kangaskhan can still provide Fake Out pressure and throw out Sucker Punch. Mega Diancie can't be Thunder Waved by anything but Mold Breaker Pokemon (all of which it OHKOs). Charizard Y is fairly vulnerable, but can often force a trade by dealing massive damage with Overheat and Solar Beam. Metagross can avoid it via Substitute or just tough it out; it has bulk in spades. Mega Gyarados meanwhile is cursed with a Mega typing vulnerable to many common attackers, and it requires a Speed advantage to beat its primary checks and counters (and can't get past Amoonguss either way) as opposed to the others. Both of its typings have a ton of common weaknesses as well (Electric and Rock vs. Fighting, Fairy, and Grass). Even when it does get a boost, a lot of Pokemon can force it out, such as Keldeo and Amoonguss, and it's doing fuck all to Suicune, who just sets up Tailwind in its face.

It feels like it has all the problems Tyranitar has, plus taking up the Mega slot, with none of the perks of being Tyranitar - it's kind of slow with a ton of weaknesses that no good player won't carry at least two of on a regular team.

 

[finally]

mega gyara's typing is hard to build around
flying: if you like having an eq immunity as a regular gyarados, you lose it as a mega gyarados. this is problematic bc you build your team with a certain amount of flying types (regular gyara being one of them). from there you cant add too many more flying types to be immune to your own mega gyara earthquakes. self-restriction.
also it's kinda hard to time when you should mega with gyarados in order to keep the right resistances throughout the battle

 

[shrop]

Politoed from A+ to A

• Rain has gone done tremendously in usage since the beginning of ORAS
• People use politoed cause they have to, not because they want to
• Very awkward stat distribution. By this I mean that it doesn't do anything particularly well
• Often dead weight after it comes in and sets up rain
• Mediocre movepool (Scald/Hydro, Ice Beam/Icy Wind, Encore, Helping hand are its most viable options and they aren't crazy strong or crazy supportive)
• Increase in Charizard usage means more weather wars if you are using Politoed which can be very dangerous
• is fucking ass

 

[Electrolyte]

Bisharp A+ --> A-

Mega Diancie's rise and continued dominance over a large part of the Mega has not only hurt Bisharp's own viability but also the viability of many of the Pokemon that Bisharp previously used to check. Defiant just isn't as great as it used to be now that Intimidate is falling in usage, as is spread attack Speed control. A lot of Intimidate users are also learning to play around Bisharp, and the metagame shift away from physical centered offense has made it less necessary for people to carry an Intimidate check anyway. As a physically attacking Steel-type, its low speed and lack of resistance to Fairy as well as its weakness to Mega Diancie's Earth Power make it a poor Fairy check (something most Steel-types gain much of their viability from) and an unreliable offensive force in general. As a general priority attacker, Bisharp is too weak and Sucker Punch is really unreliable anyway, and a lot of Pokemon Bisharp should be beating now turn to Sub offense (eg Mega Metagross) which makes a definite win a lot less certain. Without Defiant constantly giving it an edge, Bisharp is just too slow, too frail, and too weak to keep its spot in A+ tier.

bulleted version since I guess people do that now

• MDiancie's presence fucked it over
• Intimidate is less, spread speed control is less, so Defiant is less useful
• Slow, frail, weak now that golden speed tier is hiked up even more
• Outcompeted by multiple other Steel-types, which have better typings, more bulk, and more power
• Sucker Punch is worse nowadays
• can't be used as a sex toy

 

[thebagman]

Bisharp A+ --> A-

Mega Diancie's rise and continued dominance over a large part of the Mega has not only hurt Bisharp's own viability but also the viability of many of the Pokemon that Bisharp previously used to check. Defiant just isn't as great as it used to be now that Intimidate is falling in usage, as is spread attack Speed control. A lot of Intimidate users are also learning to play around Bisharp, and the metagame shift away from physical centered offense has made it less necessary for people to carry an Intimidate check anyway. As a physically attacking Steel-type, its low speed and lack of resistance to Fairy as well as its weakness to Mega Diancie's Earth Power make it a poor Fairy check (something most Steel-types gain much of their viability from) and an unreliable offensive force in general. As a general priority attacker, Bisharp is too weak and Sucker Punch is really unreliable anyway, and a lot of Pokemon Bisharp should be beating now turn to Sub offense (eg Mega Metagross) which makes a definite win a lot less certain. Without Defiant constantly giving it an edge, Bisharp is just too slow, too frail, and too weak to keep its spot in A+ tier.

bulleted version since I guess people do that now

• MDiancie's presence fucked it over
• Intimidate is less, spread speed control is less, so Defiant is less useful
• Slow, frail, weak now that golden speed tier is hiked up even more
• Outcompeted by multiple other Steel-types, which have better typings, more bulk, and more power
• Sucker Punch is worse nowadays
• can't be used as a sex toy

During a volatile time period in doubles history, Bisharp found itself in the A+ tier after much hype surrounding the meta's fascination with intimidate. Bisharp's ascension was preceded by a certain Mega Salamence's "ravaging" of the ladder coupled with the hostile environment put forth by perennial favorites Lando T, Gyarados, and TR Cress (with support from fakeout/intimidate). The rampant and incessant Attack compromising forced forced Bisharp's stock skywards, but it has had a less than middling time at the top.

Bisharp relies too much on prediction, is incredibly dependent upon its sash, and can only do its A+ job in an intimidation trending environment (which doubles has been moving away from).

 

[Darkmalice]

The people talking about Mega Gyarados being worse (I agree here, Crunch hasn't done enough sadly) should also talk about non-Mega Gyarados, as that is part of the reason they are sitting in A rank.

Either that or separate Mega forms from non-Mega forms.

 

[Haruno]

Diancie A+ => S
- stellar mon
- fantastic speed tier
- bullshit spread move
- fantastic offensive typing/presence
- checks a massive amount of the tier only losing to mons like aegis/meta/mawile
- has a usable/gimmicky non mega tr set

heatran A+ => B+/A-
- loses to pretty much everything in A/S rank
- things it does check (sun/steel/dragons) aren't as important as what it loses to (kanga/lando-t/rain/diancie/waters)
- ass speed tier

Overrated as fuck mon inXY, overrated as fuck mon in ORAS

Gyarados => B
- mega form is shit
- literally intimidate + twave/taunt is the only viable set (band is shit and lol bulky offensive sitrus)
- loses to the physical attackers it wants to check

How the fuck did this get A

Hydreigon => A-/B+
- garbage speed tier
- essentially a worse latios that only has a significant advantage in being able to beat mawile/aegis/metagross though it's not a good enough niche to put it as the same ranking as latios

Swampert =>B+
- needs turn to mevo
- heavily reliant on rain
- KyleCole special/wide guard variant is bad (sry bae ;;)
- even under rain it loses to the shit rain sweepers generally lose to (bulky waters/grasses) and provides redundancy overall with synergy (toed + swampert as your only swift swimmer is god awful)

This shit has been bad and xzern's initial placement of A was downright retarded

Exca => B
- tytar is shit

Azumarill => A+
- excellent typing
- heavily shifts momentum in users favor due to the fear of a BD
- strong priority
- bunny n_n

Zard => A+
- sun is really good rn
- lower than shit like heatran/meta/toed wtf
- strong as fuck and singlehandedly dismantles most of the meta (and heat wave spam is more viable now that top has dropped out of existence and the only common wide guard user is lol aegis)

How the fuck did it get to A- rofl.

mew => A
- stellar team support options
- fake out n_n
- wisp
- taunt
- transform (fuck psyche up)
- cresselia with offensive presence

No clue why mew isn't rated higher tbh, B- is retarded lol

 

[xzern]

just so you guys know, the S/A noms stage is meant for moving pokemon to the S/A ranks, not moving pokemon from A to B. I'll still include all those previous nominations in the voting, but past this post, nominations for pokemon to move to anything other than S/A will not count.

 

[Electrolyte]

If that's the case, then this, too:

Ferrothorn (B+) --> A-
Single handedly checks Metagross, Diancie, and MKang at once. Hits really hard and is really bulky. Stellar typing leaves it weak to the steadily declining in presence Fighting-type attack and Fire-types, two groups of mons that also happen to be fairly predictable. Walls Water-types and pretty much everything literally forever. Awesome support options such as Leech Seed and Thunder Wave, while Power Whip / Gyro Ball give it loads of power. Also, le checks le bunnies B)

 

[shrop]

Alright I just want to say that Haruno's nom for Heatran moving down is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time

 

[Haruno]

Alright I just want to say that Haruno's nom for Heatran moving down is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time

since i actually have to explain why it's a shit mon (lol) here ya go. Just eyeballing the S/A tier

S-Rank

• 
  Kangaskhan (Mega) - destroys tran (disregarding jew steel's scarf wisp or defensive helmet tran)
  
• 
  Landorus-T - rekt

A-Rank

A+ Rank:

• 
  Aegislash - tran beats
  
• 
  Bisharp - 50/50 games all around unless wisp
  
• 
  Cresselia - doesn't stop thus not checking
  
• 
  Diancie (Mega) - rekt by ep
  
• 
  Heatran - not going to comment on this
• 
  Metagross (Mega) - hammer arm is common
  
• 
  Politoed - rekt
• 
  Rotom-W - rekt
• 
  Thundurus - twave wins
• 
  Togekiss - doesn't stop kiss thus not checking

A Rank:

• 
  Amoonguss - beats
• 
  Gengar (Mega) - no clue
  
• 
  
  Gyarados (Non-Mega & Mega) - rekt (gyara's still shit)
• 
  Mawile (Mega) - beats
  
• 
  Kyurem-Black - rekt by special with ep, manhandled by physical
• 
  Hydreigon - dpulse 2hko's
  
• 
  Latios (Non-Mega) - beats barring hp ground
  
• 
  Shaymin-Sky - rekt
• 
  Suicune - rekt
• 
  Swampert (Mega) - rekt (still a shit mon)
  
• 
  Talonflame - beats
• 
  Terrakion - rekt

A- Rank:

• 
  Azumarill - rekt
• 
  Breloom - rekt
• 
  Charizard (Mega-Y) - on the fence about this but beats in general
  
• 
  Excadrill - rekt (shitmon)
• 
  Garchomp (Non-Mega) - rekt
• 
  Jirachi - beats
  
• 
  Latias (Mega) - rekt
  
• 
  Ludicolo - rekt
• 
  Keldeo - rekt
  
• 
  Sylveon - prediction mindgames with specs, beats cm
  
• 
  Tyranitar (Non-Mega) - iffy
  
• 
  Venusaur (Non-Mega) - beats in non sun

So out of the whole A/S list it beats around 8 mons in general mostly while being outright beaten by the rest. It was an A+ (S maybe?) back in starting xy when sun was literally the only viable playstyle but since then it's fallen from grace and has only gotten worse with each meta transition. Sun is apparently on the rise and although tran is prolly the best answer, that's exclusive to sun whereas it has shit matchups against rain/tr/most balanced good stuff among other things hence the nom for a drop. Is it good at what it checks? definitely but the sheer amount of shit that shits over it warrants the drop.

 

[Bughouse]

Alright I just want to say that Haruno's nom for Heatran moving down is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time

I'm not sure. The rest of his noms were also pretty stupid.

 

[shrop]

tbh I agreed with all of fren Haruno's noms except tran
I just feel that
Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Water
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Steel
Immunities: Poison
is too good to pass up on but thats just me ^_^

EDIT: yes i realize fighting, ground and water are common attacking types but lando t is weak to ice and water (equally as common types as trans weaknesses imo) and is still the best mon in the format

 

[Darkmalice]

Can we have some choice as to where certain Pokemon go? Gyarados has been nommed for A-, B+ and B, and it's not the only one like that e.g. Mew should move up but not to A rank, somewhere between B- and A.

On Gyarados, personally I think it's A- because of its Non-Mega form. It's pretty easy to fit on a team thanks to good typing and the support it provides (Intimidate + speed control is usually very welcome). The support set is the best, but offensive non-Mega sets do work well on certain teams (Waterfall + coverage move + DD or Taunt + Protect). CB and Scarf are mediocre. Mega set isn't that bad but worse than the regular form. The problem is that the main Megas hit hard and are fast without set up, where as Mega Gyarados needs a DD to both hit hard and be fast.

I'm going to add to Haruno's Mega Swampert's placement in B+ cause whilst I agree, there's an important point I want to add. Rain teams aren't that fluid in terms of what they fit on the team. The ideal rain team wants Politoed, an Electric-type, a Grass-type, checks to Grass-types (Flying-types work best here), a bulky Steel-type, and Intimidate (this one less-so). That's a lot to fit on a team. Mega Swampert is a good rain sweeper. The issue is is that it doesn't contribute to the main things desired by the ideal rain team apart from revenge killing Skymin with Ice Punch, and even though it is functionally a great Pokemon, it offers less for the team. In contrast, Ludicolo, another Swift Swim user, contributes more to the team thanks to filling the role of a Grass-type and fairing better against Grass-types better. Having to Mega Evolve to get the Swift Swim boost is also annoying.

Btw Haruno I don't think I've ever seen more profanity in a single Doubles post :(


[EDIT] Just realised something.

How so master team builder and invitarionals winner srk? I'm sure we're all dying to hear your insight. Rather than say some vague bullshit that's lacking content why don't you back up what you're saying?

Exca => B
- tytar is shit

Hippocrit

 

[xzern]

hi there.
as for the issue with multiple places that one pkmn is being nominated to, i'll either meet in the middle or choose the nomination that has what I believe to be the better reasoning.

Mega Charizard Y to rise to A+:
Keldeo to rise to A:
Garchomp to drop to B+:
Azumarill to rise to A:
Tyranitar to drop to B:
Mega Gyarados to drop to B+:
Politoed to drop to A:
Bisharp to drop to A-:
Mega Diancie to rise to S:
Heatran to drop to A-:
Gyarados to drop to A-:
Hydreigon to drop to A-:
Mega Swampert to drop to B+:
Excadrill to drop to B:
Mew to rise to A-:
Ferrothorn to rise to A-:

although it's not required/needed, if you really want a certain movement to occur or not occur, it might be a good idea to include a small bit of reasoning in your votes to try to sway others to agree with your votes.

 

[Nido-Rus]

Mega Charizard Y to rise to A+: YES [Sun is everywhere, sun is kewl]
Keldeo to rise to A: YES [Keldeo is everywhere, keldeo is kewl]
Garchomp to drop to B+: YES [coolest dragon but outclassed most of the time]
Azumarill to rise to A: NO [Meh]
Tyranitar to drop to B: YES
Mega Gyarados to drop to B+: YES [:(((((]
Politoed to drop to A: NO [While it's basically useless, it's ability keeps the entire rain archetype alive]
Bisharp to drop to A-: NO [Still kewl]
Mega Diancie to rise to S: NO
Heatran to drop to A-: NO
Gyarados to drop to A-: NO [Support set is very support]
Hydreigon to drop to A-: NO
Mega Swampert to drop to B+: YES
Excadrill to drop to B: YES
Mew to rise to A: ABSTAIN [Don't see it outside bunnies, it has no movepool issues but no idea what people run on this outside bunny sets]
Ferrothorn to rise to A-: YES [Ferro vs. rain = ded rain]

 

[qsns]

Mega Charizard Y to rise to A+: yes, holy shit everyone downplayed how much of a threat sun was
Keldeo to rise to A: yes
Garchomp to drop to B+: yes
Azumarill to rise to A: yes
Tyranitar to drop to B: yes
Mega Gyarados to drop to B+: abstain, i honestly think a- is fair for this too but im not 100% sure
Politoed to drop to A: yes
Bisharp to drop to A-: no, i think a is fair enough for it but yea i agree w/ a drop, it relies too much on correct guessing to be super useful
Mega Diancie to rise to S: abstain, it's a great mon
Heatran to drop to A-: abstain
Gyarados to drop to A-: yes
Hydreigon to drop to A-: no, dear god no. hydreigon has a fantastic offensive typing and a plethora of resistances and decent bulk to back it up.
Mega Swampert to drop to B+:
Excadrill to drop to B: yes
Mew to rise to A-: yes
Ferrothorn to rise to A-: yes, lol why was this not here