To be fair, being walled by heatran isn't fun for any mon, and he alone makes a perfectly valid reason for running hydro pump. Hydro pump is also gren's strongest option for the rare occasion he needs to hit stuff neutrally. Lastly, hydro pump makes sashninja a very shaky check to tflame, which can be helpful.
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Other ORAS Egg/Tutor Moves + General Theorymon Thead
- Thread starter Aragorn the King
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To be fair, being walled by heatran isn't fun for any mon, and he alone makes a perfectly valid reason for running hydro pump. Hydro pump is also gren's strongest option for the rare occasion he needs to hit stuff neutrally. Lastly, hydro pump makes sashninja a very shaky check to tflame, which can be helpful.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-377 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 283-335 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It also OHKOs any and every variant of Ttar and such. I feel like hydro pump isnt useful for coverage outside of a strong hit, but it still IS a strong hit, so.... Mixninja's coverage really just depends on teambuilding, it seems
I think what I'm most interested in is Milotic getting Coil. It finally gets a way to patch up its meh physical defense outside of Marvel Scale or a 30% Burn rate, and can use the other boosts in a couple of different ways. A phazer set with Dragon Tail and Coil looks interesting the lower tiers, as it boosts and recovers in the potential free turns phazing brings. Still have to watch out for Toxic, of course.
This is probably getting into gimmick territory, but with its Competitive ability, I can also picture an anti-Defog set with Coil and Hydro Pump. The idea being it gets to +2 SpA from switching into Defog (or Intimidate or even Sticky Web,) and if it gets a chance, sets up Coil to improve Hydro Pump's accuracy while also making it bulkier. That's a little overly specific, though, Coil Phazing is probably where it's at.
tl;dr, nothing overly spectacular, but it's a couple of niche uses we haven't really seen before.
This is probably getting into gimmick territory, but with its Competitive ability, I can also picture an anti-Defog set with Coil and Hydro Pump. The idea being it gets to +2 SpA from switching into Defog (or Intimidate or even Sticky Web,) and if it gets a chance, sets up Coil to improve Hydro Pump's accuracy while also making it bulkier. That's a little overly specific, though, Coil Phazing is probably where it's at.
tl;dr, nothing overly spectacular, but it's a couple of niche uses we haven't really seen before.
As far as OU is concerned Zygarde is honestly going to be better at any coil shennanigans, especially when he finally receives 1K arrows for one of the most spammable STABS in pokemon history. The only thing milotic really has goind for her is scald and arguably better defensive typing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not calling Milotic OU quality. But as long as we're talking about it in OU, it's notable that with a specially defensive EV spread with a liiiiittle bit into defense, and a single Coil boost, it can check any Keldeo set (and hardwall it if it's at full health.) Even without a boost, it can check Latios pretty well as long as you don't switch into a Thunderbolt. Zygarde can't do either of those things regardless of how many Coil boosts it has. Milotic also handles physical dragons like Charizard X and Garchomp much better, and has Recover over Zygarde's Rest (and if you do still opt for Rest, it has Marvel Scale.)
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. +1 252 HP / 32 Def Milotic: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Milotic: 161-192 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, to make myself perfectly clear, I'm not advocating using either Milotic or Zygarde Coil sets in OU, but if you're really sold on going out of your way to support one or the other, Milotic may very well be the better call depending on what you're looking for. UU is probably the place for stuff like this, though, no doubt.
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. +1 252 HP / 32 Def Milotic: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Milotic: 161-192 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, to make myself perfectly clear, I'm not advocating using either Milotic or Zygarde Coil sets in OU, but if you're really sold on going out of your way to support one or the other, Milotic may very well be the better call depending on what you're looking for. UU is probably the place for stuff like this, though, no doubt.
Been using defensive Pangoro with Substitute-Focus Punch-Knock Off-Parting Shot on a Mega Altaria team, and it's been holding up really well. The offensive variety it gained forces quite a lot of switches, giving it a lot of chances to sub.
A really decent Pokemon right now is Pangoro. It now gets Gunk Shot to get rid of pesky fairies, Drain Punch for recovery and Iron Fist, and Knock Off I shouldn't have to explain. The elemental punches are also available as strong coverage, and its Focus Punch hits really hard, whether Scrappy or Iron Fist. A set that might be good is:
Pangoro @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch
The Speed EVs are to outspeed standard Specs Sylveon, who you barely OHKO with Gunk Shot. The moves are mostly self-explanatory, with the punches hitting Lando, Gliscor, Chomp, Scizor, and regular Gyarados.
Pangoro @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch
The Speed EVs are to outspeed standard Specs Sylveon, who you barely OHKO with Gunk Shot. The moves are mostly self-explanatory, with the punches hitting Lando, Gliscor, Chomp, Scizor, and regular Gyarados.
I don't really think you can justify using the elemental punches over PS. PS is pretty much why Pangoro has a niche at all - else you might as well use Conkeldurr, who hits harder, has priority in Mach Punch, can soak up status, and has better bulk on both ends with Assault Vest.
Mismagius is actually looking sneaky interesting. Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Nasty Plot, 105 base speed and now Mystical Fire? That's going to be useful somewhere, if not in OU in UU. A strong Fire type move allows it to hit bulky Steels like Ferro and Bisharp on the switch, which would otherwise give it trouble. Gengar still overshadows it (pun intended), but Nasty Plot and Mystical Fire could give a small niche at the least.
I honestly doubt that Mystical Fire is going to cause Mismagius to rise to UU or OU, if at all. It's not like it couldn't just use HP Fire for the exact same Fire coverage and nearly as much power before ORAS, and it's not like HP Fire is a super popular move on Mismagius to begin with. The SpA drop is pretty cool and might give Mystical Fire a reason to be used on Mismagius at all, but it still gets a lot of competition from other useful moves like Substitute, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Destiny Bond. I don't see Mystical Fire making Mismagius any more than slightly better, much less causing it to move up any tiers.
If nothing else, Mystical Fire will be a really good option on Mismagius in RU, where bulky grass types are incredibly abundant. It may hit BL2 but I kinda doubt it.
So I've recently, whilst constructing a team, composed what I think is definitely the most optimal Mega Sceptile set.
All-Out Attacker
########
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
ability: Overgrow -> Lightning Rod
item: Sceptilite
evs: 136 Atk / 166 SpA / 208 Spe
nature: Rash
Leaf Storm is for obvious nuking reasons, Dpulse is also there for blatant reasons, EQ is for Heatran and Steel-types in general, and HP Fire is for Steel-types that don't care about EQ such as Skarm, Ferro, and Scizor. 136 Attack evs is juuuust enough to guarantee an OHKO on Heatran with EQ after Stealth Rock damage. 166 SpA with a Rash Nature seems odd, as most people run 252 SpA with Naive Nature. However, 166 SpA evs with a positive SpA Nature hits harder than 252 SpA EVs with a neutral SpA Nature and it opens up the opportunity for more ev investment elsewhere. 208 Spe hits 377 Speed, which is enough to always outspeed Greninja(unless it's scarfed but LOL scarfed gren). I initally was using 252 SpA evs and 120 Speed evs with a positive Speed Nature as that also hit 377 Speed and I though 252 SpA evs was optimal. Subsequently, it became an eventuality that I would realize taking away 88 evs from my SpA investment and putting them onto Speed would allow me to outspeed Greninja without a positive Speed Nature anyways, and then the remaining SpA evs in conjunction with a positive SpA Nature enable me to hit even harder than max SpA investment, neutral SpA Nature. Lastly, I choose Rash over Mild because Mega Sceptile already exhibits an inferior Defense stat to its SpD stat, and Rash relatively balances out its defenses with this set achieving 186 Defense and 185 Special Defense.
All-Out Attacker
########
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
ability: Overgrow -> Lightning Rod
item: Sceptilite
evs: 136 Atk / 166 SpA / 208 Spe
nature: Rash
Leaf Storm is for obvious nuking reasons, Dpulse is also there for blatant reasons, EQ is for Heatran and Steel-types in general, and HP Fire is for Steel-types that don't care about EQ such as Skarm, Ferro, and Scizor. 136 Attack evs is juuuust enough to guarantee an OHKO on Heatran with EQ after Stealth Rock damage. 166 SpA with a Rash Nature seems odd, as most people run 252 SpA with Naive Nature. However, 166 SpA evs with a positive SpA Nature hits harder than 252 SpA EVs with a neutral SpA Nature and it opens up the opportunity for more ev investment elsewhere. 208 Spe hits 377 Speed, which is enough to always outspeed Greninja(unless it's scarfed but LOL scarfed gren). I initally was using 252 SpA evs and 120 Speed evs with a positive Speed Nature as that also hit 377 Speed and I though 252 SpA evs was optimal. Subsequently, it became an eventuality that I would realize taking away 88 evs from my SpA investment and putting them onto Speed would allow me to outspeed Greninja without a positive Speed Nature anyways, and then the remaining SpA evs in conjunction with a positive SpA Nature enable me to hit even harder than max SpA investment, neutral SpA Nature. Lastly, I choose Rash over Mild because Mega Sceptile already exhibits an inferior Defense stat to its SpD stat, and Rash relatively balances out its defenses with this set achieving 186 Defense and 185 Special Defense.
One point I really wanted to bring up is the importance of Speed control in the ORAS metagame. Because of the ridiculously high Speed tiers present (145 Bee/Sceptile, 135 Lopunny, 122 Greninja, 110 Metagross/Gallade/Diancie, 120 Mence), fast Pokemon and Scarfers are more important than ever. The typical Scarf Landorus-T is present, but these are beginning to be accompanied by more Pokemon. Latios is a major one; what was once a nice, surprise set has become almost a standard. Outspeeding and KOing these fast mons makes it so much better. Scarf Keldeo is also pretty damn common just because it is a great Greninja check. This also applies to Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl, a mon that actually does really well in the ORAS metagame, and the faster end of the new Megas (Bee/Sceptile). Things like Choice Scarf Jirachi that wouldn't have even gotten a second look in the past, Jolly SD Talonflame which is REALLY good atm, how good Sableye is, and a new surge in the effectiveness and popularity of sand serve as further testament to the importance of Speed control.
To that end, I wonder how Trick Room will do in a metagame that's soon to get even faster. TR setter M-Sableye?
EDIT: Dangit, forgot Sableye doesn't get TR.
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I agree that the speed tiers are going to be more important than they were before, but I can't help but feel you might be too heavily emphasizing it, because the importance of priority is already firmly established this gen. Beedrill in particular is entirely decimated by just about any priority move, Mega Lopunny is concerned with (the somewhat rarer) Mach Punch, and Mega Diancie crumples to Bullet Punch. We've had plenty of Pokemon in this vein before (Like Mega Absol, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Alakazam,) with huge attack and speed stats, but none of them have become overly dominating.
I think what's really at the heart of speed being more important is the addition of offensive Pokemon with blistering speed AND quite a bit of bulk to match. Mega Metagross and Mega Salamence really embody what I mean here, along with Mega Gallade to a slightly lesser degree. We've had plenty of speedsters in the past, and a few with really high attack as well, but this is the first time we're getting a whole bunch of 'whole package' Pokemon that are very offensively threatening AND don't have to worry too much about common priority weaknesses ending their rampage, since they can take hits without folding like paper. Notice how Mega Manectric is the only speed heavy Mega that's in X/Y OU. In past generations, notice how pseudo-legends tended to be really awesome, because Salamence and Garchomp had stats similar to the new Megas in comparison to the rest of the tiers, and Metagross and Dragonite could use their bulk to boost their speed and become threatening, bulky Pokemon as well. Speed control is really important, no doubt, but I think the real challenge the ORAS metagame will face is dealing with these things that have high speed, high offenses, AND can take hits as well.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-177505825
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-177508434
Mega Aerodactyl and Gunk Shot Greninja have been doing pretty well so far. I haven't fought to many battles, so I'm still in mid-low ladder, but they are forces nonetheless. Aerodactyl will be particularly helpful against the new speedy megas like Mega Sceptile and Beedrill and can outspeed both of them with a Jolly nature and 216 speed EVs, allowing it to dump remaining EVs into HP. It also outspeeds Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X after a Dragon Dance (if Adamant), and speed ties with Adamant/Naughty Mega Salamence after a Dragon Dance with these EVs (220 Spe EVs might be a good idea then...).
Magnezone is also very nice, as usual.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-177508434
Mega Aerodactyl and Gunk Shot Greninja have been doing pretty well so far. I haven't fought to many battles, so I'm still in mid-low ladder, but they are forces nonetheless. Aerodactyl will be particularly helpful against the new speedy megas like Mega Sceptile and Beedrill and can outspeed both of them with a Jolly nature and 216 speed EVs, allowing it to dump remaining EVs into HP. It also outspeeds Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X after a Dragon Dance (if Adamant), and speed ties with Adamant/Naughty Mega Salamence after a Dragon Dance with these EVs (220 Spe EVs might be a good idea then...).
Magnezone is also very nice, as usual.
That or when it does get its Mega it'll be specially based with some sort of -ate ability to make that Boomburst scary...
A girl can dream.
Also as far as Gyarados getting Crunch, will the Mega DD sets be running Crunch/EQ/Ice Fang/DD now since its better coverage than anything involving waterfall?
Not much point in Ice Fang now since Crunch will usually 2HKO Mega Venusuar at +1 after Stealth Rock, so Crunch/Waterfall/Earthquake will probably be a bit better. Ice Fang does make the job a bit easier though, so it may still be viable on it.
Dropping out on Waterfall for Crunch means you have to rely on the relatively weaker EQ to hit Fighting types and Fairy types. Off the top of my head, it means Mega Lopunny can survive Mega Gyara at +1 revenge kill it. As far as Mega Gyara is concerned, it needs EQ for Rotom-W, Azumarill, other Mega Gyara; Ice Fang so that Altaria and Mence doesn't set up on it, and to beat Chesnaught and stuff. Crunch cannot fit into any specific purpose as far as I can think of, so I think Waterfall/EQ/Ice Fang is still the superior choice.
Although I still believe this set is the most optimal, if your team has problems against Mega Lopunny or Mega Manectric and you would like to always outspeed them, I would recommend this set:
########
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
ability: Overgrow -> Lightning Rod
item: Sceptilite
evs: 136 Atk / 194 SpA / 180 Spe
nature: Naive
Unfortunately this set is noticably weaker on the special side, but a STAB Leaf Storm from base 145 SpA is still nothing to scoff at. 180 Speed evs with this time a positive Speed nature guarantees outspeeding Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric, 136 Atk is the same and the rest is thrown onto SpA.
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Yeah, nowadays super effective coverage is more important than ever to deal with these "whole package" mons. While things will probably change once we start suspect testing stuff, I think the rise in usage of scarfers besides Landorus-T and niche mons like Weavile is shaping the metagame in a healthy way. I'm really enjoying the offensive diversity you can find on the ORAS OU ladder atm, but then again it might be just because I hate stall.
Furfrou: Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure, Uproar, Last Resort, Zen Headbutt, Hyper Voice, Iron Tail, Snore, Role Play, Helping Hand, Endeavor, Endure
What.
I think something went wrong there.
In other news, Chandelure gets Shock Wave. Hmmm. Usable at all?
What.
I think something went wrong there.
In other news, Chandelure gets Shock Wave. Hmmm. Usable at all?
Furfou move repetition might be because of all of the forms it has when you dress it up.
Shock Wave Chandelure is probably highly inferior to Energy Ball and its STAB moves.
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