ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

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Doesn't anybody give Dedenne some love? It eats frogadier for breakfast if it survives its hit, even with Parabolic Charge, and although it's probably a bit outclassed by Electabuzz you can still easily use it well thanks to the likes of Sitrus Berry + Cheek Pouch allowing a big heal. Besides, it's even part fairy, which Electabuzz isn't. I'm not very experienced with competitive but the little mouse can really work well. Currently I just run Para, SF, Discharge and Covet (for when it is done with its berry) although it's only experimental but it certainly puts in work.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Doesn't anybody give Dedenne some love? It eats frogadier for breakfast if it survives its hit, even with Parabolic Charge, and although it's probably a bit outclassed by Electabuzz you can still easily use it well thanks to the likes of Sitrus Berry + Cheek Pouch allowing a big heal. Besides, it's even part fairy, which Electabuzz isn't. I'm not very experienced with competitive but the little mouse can really work well. Currently I just run Para, SF, Discharge and Covet (for when it is done with its berry) although it's only experimental but it certainly puts in work.
If Dedenne got some useful special Fairy-type move like Moonblast or Dazzling Gleam it would definitely be viable, because it could check many of the things E-Buzz can but on top of being able to check Fraxure, Zweilous, Krok, and Mightyena better. But unfortunately GameFreak decided to fuck it by only giving it Play Rough as a Fairy STAB, and because of its abysmmal Attack stat it can't really abuse it. Dedenne is just another sad case of a Pokemon with wasted potential.
 
I'm committing it very soon.
The criteria for what's listed as usable in this isn't completely accurate; Vigoroth is also banned and because of the way the tiers updated the cutoffs were different last month, which means that some Pokemon above 2.28% usage are considered PU.
 

EV

not even to dinner with the kushners?
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The criteria for what's listed as usable in this isn't completely accurate; Vigoroth is also banned and because of the way the tiers updated the cutoffs were different last month, which means that some Pokemon above 2.28% usage are considered PU.
I'm not seeing where it says Vigoroth isn't banned. Also, are you saying that the Rules should state "All Pokémon above 2.28% usage in the PU stats are banned" instead of what it says now?
 
This is what it says (at least for me):

  • All Pokémon above 2.28% usage is unable to be used
  • All clauses are on.
  • Machoke and Sticky Web are both banned.
which says nothing about vigoroth, and also might mislead people into thinking that all Pokemon above 2.28% but below 4.4% (for example Ursaring and Volbeat) aren't legal when they actually are because they were below the cutoff last month but didn't get enough to rise again this month.

Edit: Regice and Stoutland are PU, there's no need to mention them specifically
 
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EV

not even to dinner with the kushners?
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This is what it says (at least for me):

  • All Pokémon above 2.28% usage is unable to be used
  • All clauses are on.
  • Machoke and Sticky Web are both banned.
which says nothing about vigoroth, and also might mislead people into thinking that all Pokemon above 2.28% but below 4.4% (for example Ursaring and Volbeat) aren't legal when they actually are because they were below the cutoff last month but didn't get enough to rise again this month.
Oh see I did a search for Vigoroth to see if it was still in the tier somewhere hence why it didn't show up.
unfixable
 
Fraxure is nearly impossible to stop its way when it sets up +1 DD. It has a good movepool to ride off any checks such as Poison Jab and Low Kick. Don't know why it is not banned yet.
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
Also lacking Regice and Sand Doge on the hub. They're banned on the main OP lol. Good work unfixable , though n_n

Regarding the monstrous Regigigas, I agree that at first Slow Start makes it seem like a worthless choice. However after using it, anyone will know it's terrifying. Who cares about Slow Start when you have 110/110 bulk, Sub, ways of disrupt the opponent with Twave or Confuse Ray, and a metagame without any relevant Fighting-type to beat it. Toxic means nothing with the existence of Spritzee, who not only has Aromatherapy but also happens to be one of its best teammates alongside special Krow. To those complaining it's not powerful, again, stop theorymonning and use this thing.

252 Atk Life Orb Persian Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 211-250 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Slow Start Regigigas Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It still hits almost as hard as Persian, and Persian is decent. Also Gigas is a great disruptor, spreading Thunder Waves like a champion. And don't forget Substitute! Due the amount of NFE Pokemon that reside in FU, Regigigas can get a Sub that won't likely be broken in a single hit in most of the time. Not forgetting that it's very easy yp stall Slow Start with a Sub either. For me Regigigas should be A, but I'm not sad with it at A-. It's MUCH better than Swanna, Luxray and Solrock in the current metagame.

Speaking on the ranks, aside from why in Jeovah's name Golduck is higher than Lapras and why Seaking is nowhere to be seen, put Articuno on S/A+ the least. I'll explain later.
 
Still no Furfrou ranking? Pls, it literally deals with the entire unboosted physical part of the tier (Earlier someone posted a rmt with flame plate rapidash saying nothing neutral in the tier walls it in the sun? Furfrou only has a 7% chance to be 2hkod after rocks) except mold breakers- and whereas its flaw in other tiers is that it walls shit but can't do anything, here with the difficulty of hazard removal it can utilites a resttalk set with roar and slowly wear down everything and prevent things setting up on it. Its offensive presence isn't awful either, 80 base attack with a 100bp STAB lets it hit decently hard when necessary, at least compared to all the eviolite users in the tier.

Not only that, but it sits a great speed tier for a defensive mon that really helps with roar spamming. At 102 you can use only a handful (68 iirc) to outspeed mons like jolly fraxure, and you outspeed a lot naturally, which means that when sleep talk calls roar you can often avoid taking any damage.

With Machoke gone this thing provides so much utility in walling half the tier in one slot for stall, I can only see it at B or higher.
 
252 Atk Life Orb Persian Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 211-250 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Slow Start Regigigas Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It still hits almost as hard as Persian, and Persian is decent. Also Gigas is a great disruptor, spreading Thunder Waves like a champion. And don't forget Substitute! Due the amount of NFE Pokemon that reside in FU, Regigigas can get a Sub that won't likely be broken in a single hit in most of the time. Not forgetting that it's very easy yp stall Slow Start with a Sub either. For me Regigigas should be A, but I'm not sad with it at A-. It's MUCH better than Swanna, Luxray and Solrock in the current metagame.
20% difference is not close m8 :]

as for the Hub, the Speed-tier is broken ( some examples in bold)
718 / Swoobat / 114 / +Spe / 252 / +2
578 / Sawsbuck / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +2
538 / Articuno / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +2
534 / Ninjask / 160 / Neutral / 252 / +1
508 / Electabuzz, Rapidash / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +1
502 / Carvahna / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +2
498 / Kingler / 75 / Neutral / 252 / +2
496 / Simipour, Simisage, Simisear / 101 / +Spe / 252 / +1
446 / Huntail / 52 / +Spe / 252 / +2
442 / Articuno, Golduck / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
433 / Gabite / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +1
426 / Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
424 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +2
419 / Ninjask / 160 / +Spe / 252 / 0
403 / Golduck / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +1
398 / Beartic / 50 / Neutral / 252 / +2
384 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +1
376 / Carvahna / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +1
370 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +1


also +2 252 neutral Golduck is a thing as RD+SS duck is one of its best sets atm

Also atleast the A+ and A ranks should be in the threat list IMO
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Fraxure is nearly impossible to stop its way when it sets up +1 DD. It has a good movepool to ride off any checks such as Poison Jab and Low Kick. Don't know why it is not banned yet.
I'm getting kind of sick and tired complaining about why Fraxure isn't banned yet. We had a council suspect test, and most of us all came to the conclusion that it's no where near as unmanageable as people think it is. It can't run Low Kick and Poison Jab on the same set reliably, or else it has to forgo Taunt which is a terrible idea and if you do forgo Taunt you're a dumbass. Being able to set up on a slew of passive defensive Pokemon is well worth the ability to hit a few more things for super effective damage. The only thing Low Kick is even useful for is Lairon, so Poison Jab is a much more commonly used move anyway because Fraxure needs it in or to not be Clef or Spritzee set up fodder.

The banning of Sticky Web also really put a hit on how often Fraxure can sweep. At +1 under Sticky Web, it was practically at +2 Speed, so it was nearly impossible to revenge kill. Now however it relies a LOT more on setting up in order to sweep through teams. Fraxure has a ton of checks before it sets up because it sits at a really shitty Speed tier, but there are still plenty of ways to deal with it even after a boost. Scarf Gabite easily revenge kills it, while Krok can OHKO it after a bit of residual and its Eviolite is knocked off. Ninjask is very fast and outspeeds it at +1, and a CB U-turn is an easy 2HKO even when it's holding an Eviolite. There's also Scarf Articuno which is a heavily underrated revenge killer despite its SR weakness. Metang completely hard walls it and some variants can carry Psyche Up in order to steal its boosts. Murkrow and Meowstic-M paralyze it with priority Thunder Wave. Wartortle sometimes runs Counter which obviously annihilates Fraxure, and a smart player isn't going to risk being burned by Scald so they wont try to set up too many boosts on it anyway.

I just feel like so many people just have no clue how to deal with Fraxure and just automatically assume it's broken, where there's many ways to deal with it.
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
20% difference is not close m8 :]
Well, considering you just said

Also, what is regi doing at A-? I know it is bulky af and can negate slow start with status, but it seem more like a B or B- pokemon if anything becasue of how passive it is
That's quite the difference for something passive :]

And for people bitching about Fraxure, here is what the dictator said
Fraxure, Kingler, and Sticky Web will for sure be suspected again in the near future because of how insanely close the votes were.
It means they will be retested, we are still checking how much a Web-less metagame will affect its performance and then, when time comes, we'll finally suspect the Dragon.
 
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Megazard

The turtle moves
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PU Leader
tbh I don't have a problem with Golduck being higher than Lapras. I've been using auto rain dance, and its ability to be faster than a lot of things sub/salac simipour can't outspeed gives it a solid niche, while lapras suffers from being unable to switch into Electabuzz, Gogoat, low kick fraxure, arbok, ninjask, simisage, etc.

Also Articuno should definitely be A+/S, scarfcuno, sub/roost, and agility are all amazing sets. Can't write more than a one liner rn, I'll try to say more later if somebody else doesn't.
 
I'm getting kind of sick and tired complaining about why Fraxure isn't banned yet. We had a council suspect test, and most of us all came to the conclusion that it's no where near as unmanageable as people think it is. It can't run Low Kick and Poison Jab on the same set reliably, or else it has to forgo Taunt which is a terrible idea and if you do forgo Taunt you're a dumbass.
I stop reading when I see the word "dumbass"... If you think you're better than me, you thought wrong. So yeah, I forgot to post in my last commentary: "I think..." P.S.: don't be a jerk to anyone.
 

termi

formerly Robert Alfons
is a Tiering Contributor
I stop reading when I see the word "dumbass"... If you think you're better than me, you thought wrong. So yeah, I forgot to post in my last commentary: "I think..." P.S.: don't be a jerk to anyone.
Guess the tier leader really is inferior to a badgeless nobody with 16 posts! Plus, you seem to have misinterpreted him. He didn't direct the "dumbass" toward you, he said that if you use a certain (inferior) set, that's a dumb thing to do. If you feel like he addressed you in particular, that says more about you than about him n_n

P.S.: this is the internet, are you honestly still surprised to see people throw slurs left and right?
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I stop reading when I see the word "dumbass"... If you think you're better than me, you thought wrong. So yeah, I forgot to post in my last commentary: "I think..." P.S.: don't be a jerk to anyone.
Maybe if you kept reading you'd realize I wasn't directing it towards you .-. I was just saying that anyone in general that runs both Low Kick and Poison Jab is really missing out on abusing Fraxure's full potential, but if you're the kind of person that does that and I offended you I apologize. I forget sometimes how some people are easily offend able on this site.

Also a few changes to the ranking thread. Cuno was raised to S rank because at the moment it's easily one of the best Pokemon in the meta. Although Machoke didn't really appreciate Cuno's presence, it was still kind of a hindrance for Cuno, especially for its choiced sets, as it had to rely on Hurricane to beat it, and I'm pretty sure even with a Life Orb Machoke has a chance to live it. I feel like Cuno was always an S rank threat, but a lot of people were just over exaggerating its SR weakness and ignoring just how incredible it is on its own.

Vullaby was also added to A- rank. It was yet another Pokemon that everyone seems to overlook, when in fact it's one of the best hazard removers in the tier. With Machoke gone, Knock Off is much less prevalent, so its massive bulk is kept in tact more often. It also has Foul Play which keeps it from being set up fodder for things like Fraxure and Kingler, and Taunt which prevents defensive Pokemon from setting up on it. It takes like no damage from most physical attackers, and with reliable recovery in Roost it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
 
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Something I've been having a ton of fun with, and I think more people really should try:


Furfrou @ Choice Band
Ability: Fur Coat
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch
- Wild Charge

Because of Fur Coat it's easy to forget, but Furfrou's stats actually work very well with this set. Base 102 Speed is really trolly in this meta, naturally outspeeding the Simis and everything slower, and its Frustration hits a lot harder than you'd think, allowing for very easy RKs. What makes Furfrou particularly stand out in this role, aside from its trolly Speed tier, is the surprise factor. For example, I've seen people switch in Arbok, expecting easy set-up, only to see this:

252 Atk Choice Band Furfrou Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 246-289 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And because of Fur Coat, it's bulky without any investment whatsoever, meaning it's hard to RK itself. To give some idea, a full health 0/0 Furfrou lives a Kingler Crabhammer after Stealth Rock. It can switch in on Sawsbuck without fear - how many fast banders can say that? Its coverage isn't the best, sure, but the fact that its STAB is really spammable in a tier with almost nothing commonly used that resists it helps to make up for that - and well, U-turn is U-turn.
 
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Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
Yuelia your Furfrou set interests me. I don't like locked Sucker Punch though since Furfrou will become a pseudo-Slaking. Too bad dog only has Iron Tail and Zen Headbutt (aside from the mighty Dig and Rock Smash) as replacements :/ I guess Iron Tail could work, since it's the best thing it can do against Gigalith and the fairies who laugh at Return

252 Atk Choice Band Furfrou Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gigalith: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Furfrou Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Furfrou Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Here's a very underrated Pokemon that is often overlooked because of Kingler, but it's still a very viable option on some teams because of a very specific trait. Credits to Don for the idea, as he's been using it ever since the tier was created.


Seaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Megahorn

Meet Seaking, a Pokemon that would otherwise be extremely outclassed by Kingler if it wasn't for its trollish ability, Lightning Rod. Normally this wouldn't really be enough of a reason to use Seaking over something as amazing as Kingler, but in a tier where Electabuzz is basically on every FU team, Seaking is one of the very few Water-types in the tier that can actually take it on and set up all over it without fear. Although Lightning Rod doesn't really benefit it offensively in anyway, the ability to set up on the most common Pokemon in the tier AND function much like Kingler is a very unique trait that no other Water-type can brag about. Its moveset is also strikingly similar to Agility Kingler's, but with the much more powerful Bug-type coverage move in the form of Megahorn, allowing it to OHKO max HP Gogoat as well as pretty much any other Grass-types bar Quilladin, although after its Eviolite is knocked of it's a clean 2HKO. The only big downside is that Seaking is significantly weaker than Kingler, so shit like Gourgeist-S, Quill, Metang, and Lairon need to be weakened more before it can sweep. It also finds it harder to set up on physical attackers because it lacks the solid defensive stat that Kingler has. On the bright side, Seaking has decent special bulk so it wont die to practically any special attack, allowing it to set up on weaker special attacks if need be. The EVs are so Seaking can outspeed up to Scarf Articuno after an Agility.

Yea Seaking isn't nearly as good as Kingler, but it's still a solid option for teams that are very weak to buzz but need some kind of cleaner that can function like Kingler, and Seaking is the perfect candidate for the job.
 
Can someone tell me why mightyena is A-, its move pool is so bad when I look at it and I don't see why it's so good outside of its mostly dark type movepool
 
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