ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

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The banning of Machoke basically buffed the entire meta. Because Machoke was so bulky and could check an incredibly large portion of the meta, anything that couldn't OHKO it before such as Electabuzz, the monkeys, Gabite, Fraxure, Rapidash, etc all got a little bit better. Rock- and Normal-types in general gained a lot of viability; especially the former because most Rock-types basically gave Machoke a free switch-in. And even with the banning of Machoke, lots of Pokemon that were hailed for the ability to reliably check Machoke are still pretty good because now they are less pressured and can opt to run other sets; Murkrow for example can now afford to forgo the Life Orb in exchange for Eviolite and play the bulkier role. Swanna on the other hand lost a decent amount of viability because not only was it a solid check to Machoke, but it was also a menace for Sticky Web teams because it had a good matchup against Leavanny was well as Pokemon commonly found on Webs such as Rampardos and Gogoat. Now that Sticky Web is banned, there's less of a reason to use Swanna as a defogger, although it's still the only good offensive hazard remover so it's not THAT bad.

The banning of Sticky Web hurt a lot of Pokemon as well as made others a lot better. Fraxure and Kingler depend a lot more on their Speed boosting moves in order to sweep through teams, and now they're a lot easier to revenge kill because of it. Other Pokemon such as Rapidash, the monkeys, Persian, and Electabuzz which depend a lot on their Speed, now have nothing to worry about and can now proceed to check many Pokemon more reliably. And then there's Pokemon such as Wigglytuff and Meowstic-F which were primarily used for their ability to punish Sticky Web teams, but now are more niche to punishing Defog. The former is still cool because it gets Stealth Rock and checks some pretty cool things, but the latter is really frail and weak as well as complete Scarf Krok bait, and not really worth it over other Psychic-types.
I'm wondering when 3 minutes ago I could still use Machoke?
 
Im wondering If some of the other NFEs will see some more usage now that Machoke is gone. Scraggy is very versatile with his powerful dual stabs in Knock Off/Hi JUmp Kick or Drain Punch for longevity. He can utilize his amazing abiltiis of Moxie/Intimidate to either help set up or continue his sweep or go more defensive with Bulk up with Shed Skin instead of DDance. Eviolite also gives him similar bulk to Machoke. Banded Medtite is something that may be seen more as I have yet to see one before the ban of Choke. Also I wonder if Scarfed Reckless Mienfoo will be used know as the FU Fighting Choice seeing as I have seen a similar Scarfed Reckless Starvia put in work. With Sticky Web and Choke gone I wonder If I will use Jumpluff as much who along with Flying Spam could avoid Sticky Web and could OHKO a Machoke with a +2 Acrobatics.

+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 374-444 (102.7 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But here are the potential sets I want to try out.

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Moxie/Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch/Hi Jump Kick
- Taunt/Poison Jab

Im not sure how viable Poison Jab will be seeing as Faires are somewhat common even with Choke gone because of threats like Fraxure/Zweilous.

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk/ 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Rest

This one is similar to Arboks Rest/Coil tactic in that it can take hits better and absorb status.

Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge/Poison Jab

Another set I want to test it out Choke gone.

Edit: Also I wonder if Pignite could work as well as a bulky attacker with a similar nice to his evolution Emboar with a set such as Sucker Punch/Flare Blitz/Superpower/Wild Charge or Flame CHarge
 
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I'm really wondering why people are more inclined to use Regigigas over Slaking, what's the difference between them besides the Regi's crippled ability and Slaking's set up bait?
 
I'm really wondering why people are more inclined to use Regigigas over Slaking, what's the difference between them besides the Regi's crippled ability and Slaking's set up bait?
the difference is in a meta dominated by setup it's much easier to support gigas effectively than to support slaking effectively.
another thing is regigigas can overcome its ability if the player is good enough as well as still being decently powerful with slow start in such a low bulk/power meta.
 
I'm really wondering why people are more inclined to use Regigigas over Slaking, what's the difference between them besides the Regi's crippled ability and Slaking's set up bait?
Because Regi is bulky as hell, you can use in a more defensive way during slow start and then sweep (is like a set up sweeper without weakness).
Slaking cannot do much useless you run some gimmick like EjB Yamask.
 
ya machoke had to get out right away... thank god its gone. now it doesn't destroy my lc team that much in FU

also now slowpoke has more use!
 
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Kushalos

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I feel obligated to post a team as a council member lol

http://puu.sh/ecAbb/74d2f84178.txt

This is a p cool sand balance team i made yesterday. Just a bunch of bulky stuff and then a few mons that are fast and hit hard nothing too special. Sawsbuck can be a bitch so I'm considering changing Gogoat into a Gourgeist to handle it better. So far it has been working fairly well so give it a try!
 
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I feel obligated to post a team as a council member lol

http://puu.sh/ecAbb/74d2f84178.txt

This is a p cool sand balance team i made yesterday. Just a bunch of bulky stuff and then a few mons that are fast and hit hard nothing too special. Sawsbuck can be a bitch so I'm considering changing Gogoat into a Gourgeist to handle it better. So far it has been working fairly well so give it a try!
Its not Hyper offensive aka its terribad

Jokes aside, what is the Def on Gogoat for? did some few cacl but most Physical offensive things I find just 2HKO because of SE moves or insane STAB (LO SD Buck is retardely scary btw) also those Swanna IVs. bu tsrsly your team looks scary and annoying, good job.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fu-200700225

So I tried stall in FU for the first time in months. I really like playing stall, but FU is not a kind tier to it. First of all, a lot of the really bulky mons that you use on stall teams like Clefairy, Krookodile/Hippo, Lickitung, whatever, all require Eviolite to function. That's great and all for making them bulky as fuck, but in the long run it becomes a liability. They cannot get Leftovers recovery, which means that their longevity is cut down significantly even with Recovery (just look at my Clefairy/Lickitung in this battle). They also are extremely susceptible to Knock Off. Now this isn't as common since Machoke was banned (thank God), but Krok is still a very potent threat.

But that's only one issue with stall. Another is that there are an incredible amount of setup sweepers and most of the moms found on stall are extremely passive. This means that sub users are the pain of all stall teams' existence. Sub Coil Arbok, Sub DD Fraxure, Sub Salac Kingler, Sub Bulk Up Gogoat, all of these Pokemon are pretty much instant losses for stall unless they have a phazer of some sort. Unfortunately these are incredibly difficult to come by, with the best users being Tentacool and Wartortle, and Dragon Tail being a decent option on Lickitung. Other than that, Perish Song Laparas is pretty much it in terms of stopping setup sweepers.

So long story short: stall is very difficult to pull off right now and probably not the best style to use on the ladder :[
 
That's not the best replay though, since its less stall is unviable and more you're a better player than me (I'm Lazadamn) =p. But the buff to knock off affected stall way more in FU, where the bulkier pokemons rely on Eviolite a lot. I also agree that the lack of phazer also hurts them against substitute users (don't forget Whirlwind Grumpig!).
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
That's not the best replay though, since its less stall is unviable and more you're a better player than me (I'm Lazadamn) =p. But the buff to knock off affected stall way more in FU, where the bulkier pokemons rely on Eviolite a lot. I also agree that the lack of phazer also hurts them against substitute users (don't forget Whirlwind Grumpig!).
I didn't even know that Grumpig got Whirlwind lol. I'll have to try that on a future team. Also sorry for postings replay of you without asking first. I unfortunately have no computer at the moment and can only play on my phone, which meant I couldn't ask you in the chat if it was ok.

Anyway, I encourage people to try and break away from the current Hyper Offense and Bulky Offense builds. Who knows, you could discover the next great mon that puts stall on an even playing field with the other styles!
 
Sharing Is Caring:




Gabite @Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
Evs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Toxic

Gabite has saved my ass so many times, despite the ice weakness. Nice water/grass neutrality. Poison Resist and great bulk. Roar stops setup monsters. Toxic helps chip away health at bulky waters, and eq for stab + hits poisons/steels that are immune to toxic.

Some calcs to elaborate:

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 240-283 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 228-272 (67.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huntail Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (loses to ice fang/beam)

and some other stuff im too lazy to write about...

Ya'll better start running ice fang arbok.
 
Ive been seeing such a lack of Electric pokemon other than Buzz that im wondering If there aren't more viable Electrics running around such as Sub/Roost Emolga, Mixed Pikachu with Volt Tackle, Knock Off, ESpeed, Grass Knot/ThunderBolt (who if fully invested in atk roughly hits 150 base atk and 120 sp.atk if not invested) , Scarfed/banded/Toxic Orb Luxray or a bulky Sleep Talk/Rest/Acid Spray/Thunderbolt Electrike with hazard support who forces switches with Acid Spray.
 
I don't think stall is really that bad off in FU, the only things that pose real offensive threats to it imo are the monkeys and Rampardos. There's a few decent phasers in the tier, and it's really powerful due to the difficulty of hazard removal and how stall has access to the best spinblocker and can force out defoggers with a lil core of rocks Wigglytuff and Gourgeist. On that note, here's another ridiculously slept on mon:


Furfrou @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar
- Return


I'm not sure how this slipped under the radar since Machoke left, but you wall literally every common physical attacker in the tier but Fraxure and Rampardos because Mold Breaker. I mean:

252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 104-123 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Unfezant Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 123-146 (34.7 - 41.2%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Its spdef aint awful either, it isn't 2hko'd by eviolite Electabuzz's thunderbolt, but its certainly a far weaker side. Still, get rocks up and have something to switch into powerful special attackers, and rest/talk the other team to a slow death.

On the topic of knock off, yeah, it is a huge issue to stall and thats why I really try to avoid using eviolite mons whenever possible. It's just such a common move that I try to check top tier mons with fully evolved mons, since even if they're not as effective ones with eviolite, at least your team isn't dismantled by a stray knock off with its ridiculous distribution.

Some other underrated stall mons:

Meganium: Really bulky, has reliable recovery, nice typing in FU, provides aromatherapy support and phases with dragon tail. Dragon tail is especially handy for wearing down fire types that like to switch in.
Wigglytuff: Wish support, rocks and good typing. What makes it really good is that it can switch in on almost every defogger, force it out with competitive and get rocks back up, maintaining hazards for mons like furfrou.
Not that bulky, but bulky enough to wall most physical attackers that hit neutrally. On that note, although it's tempting to split EVs into def and spdef with that huge hp, going fully phys def reaches some important benchmarks like never being 2hko'd by fraxure's poison jab (not that common but still) after rocks, and being able to wishtect stall life orb rapidash's flare blitz.
Also a fairy type that can actually absorb knock off, unlike Clefairy and Spritzee.
Chimecho: Still the best wincon and shits on enemy stall, pls use 8)
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
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Sorry stall fans, Game Freak released another thing to threaten this dumb playstyle:



With Contrary Serperior released, so is Contrary Servine on FU. Discuss your experiences with/against or what you expect Servine to be.
 
Prepare your sap sippers I guess? Not like gogoat needed to be made any better :(

EDIT: Looking at the stats, this thing is gonna be hard to revenge kill, its bulk with eviolite is pretty damn solid and base 83 is a good base speed. Can't see it staying for that long, despite its weak base 60spatt.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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I don't even know if I'd see it being broken thanks to gogoat, Arbok, articuno, and mediocre speed (articuno, simisear, electabuzz, etc can revenge unless scarf). We'll probably steal it for pu tho :^)
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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Yeah definitely not broken by any means, but it does decently against bulkier teams. It really REALLY wishes Sticky Web hadn't been banned, since it's speed isn't great but isn't bad either. It also doesn't get Dragon Pulse which limits its coverage to Leaf Storm Hidden Power and (I'm not joking) Nature Power. That's legit the only options it has outside of stuff like Giga Drain, which is probably the best move in the fourth slot just because of how bulky it is with Eviolite. Probably worth using, probably not game breaking.
 

Gary

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In other news, Contrary Servine is now legal in FU! Although it just came out and not much testing has gone on yet obviously, I see it having a ton of potential in this metagame. With an Eviolite, it's bulkier than Superior, which by itself is a pretty bulky Pokemon for FU standards. It's also not that much weaker than Serperior either; the only real big disadvantage is that it's MUCH slower sitting at only 83 base Speed, putting it under big threats such as Articuno, Raticate, and Sawsbuck. It also lacks the ability to learn Dragon Pulse, meaning that Fraxure is a pretty safe check to it and could potentially set up a free Dragon Dance on it. I've seen a lot of people bitch about how broken it is on the ladder, but it really doesn't make much sense lol. It's very manageable because it lacks immediate power, Speed, coverage. However, much like how Serp will probably be in the upper tiers, I see Servine as being a cool wallbreaker. Although it lacks the ability to be immediately threatening like Simisage, who has superior coverage, Speed, better mixed stats, and a fast Taunt, Servine has the ability to plow through bulkier teams much more efficiently. Here's a set that Don came up with:


Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Knock Off
- Glare / Giga Drain

Knock Off is a great option in the third slot because it allows Servine to knock off Eviolites of Pokemon such as Clefairy, Spritzee, and Metang in order to make them much less bulkier so they can be broken through. Hidden Power Ground is by far the best HP to use because it hits Poison-types such as Seviper, Arbok, and Metang which completely wall it otherwise. The only things it misses out on without HP Fire are opposing Grass-types such as Gourgeist-S and Gogoat, but they wont like being Knocked off. Glare cripples predicting switch-ins so they can't set up on it; Sawsbuck, Gogoat, Fraxure, Simisage, and Rapidash will hate being paralyzed. Giga Drain is a decent alternative STAB that makes it more durable and gives it another move to spam once it reaches +6 without having to use up Leaf Storm PP.

All in all Servine looks like a solid A- threat. It's pretty slow so it wont have the greatest matchup against offensive teams, and Simisage still seems like the more superior offensive Grass-type just because of its amazing coverage and Speed, but Servine is definitely the more reliable wallbreaker against very bulky teams.
 
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