ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

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This might sound terrible but i've actually really enjoyed having shedinja, illumise and slaking together, by first having slaking destroy something, then sending in illumise when they try to set up and encore it so that i can make a sub and pass it to shedinja. i'm still trying to figure out who the best hazard clearer for the team and teammates are, right now going with wartortle, ariados and murkrow
 

Grim

The Ghost
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Krubby

Please stop trying to make Slaking work, it won't. Even if you somehow make it work it won't be worth it the rest of your team is used to prevent the opponent from setting up on Slaking. Shedinja also wouldn't really be the best receiver honestly; just like Slaking, it needs too much support that is not worth it.

Indecrestent

Pretty sure it's still not good. :I
 

Gary

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Yeah no real reason to use Swadloon as a defensive Pokemon when Quilladen exists, or as a Sticky Webber when Leavanny and Kricketune exist.
 

Gary

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I like how you're continuing to question my council members and myself on the viability of Slacking ?_? I think we would know more than most people on the viability of Slaking seeing as how we played this tier before it was even released to the public lmao.

Anyways, there is no right way to use Slaking, because Slaking is bad. The only way to use Slaking is to use it as a revenge killer/wallbreaker. But it can't even do that successfully because any comeptent player will just take advantage of that and set up on it. I've already made several detailed post on why Slaking is bad, so I'm not going to go off on another tangent. If I see anymore one liners about Slaking then I'm going to request a Mod to start handing out infractions.
 
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Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
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Slaking is better than Watchog and Beautifly but still bad lol. It has no place with Raticate/Regigigas/Ursaring. Especially, there is no reason to use against the criminally underrated CB Hustle Raticate.

252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 136-160 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 114-136 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meager difference. Yet, Hustle is better than Truant in a competitive point of view.

Also I reached top 10 using a Yanma team, and Yanma is bad :/
 
Slaking may be awful, but it's still fun to use.

On a more important note, I've heard talk of sun teams, but I'm having trouble actually building one. Anyone have tips on viable sun-setters and defoggers (besides Prinplup)?
 
So after playing the tier for a while, it's been incredibly fun, probably the best "standard" metagame I've played all the way since DPP UU.

With one glaring exception.

This thing:



^ ban this fucker ^

Seriously. My team has three separate answers to Fraxure...and I've still been swept by this thing. After just one single dance. It's ridiculous. My own (heavily offensive) team runs Fraxure with basically no support whatsoever. It still gets tons of switch-in opportunities. It gets one dance and that's basically game.

There are teams on the ladder right now whose entire strategy revolves around easing Fraxure's setup. Dual screens Meowstic, memento passing, Smash-passing (and it's always to Fraxure), you name it. They win. They win a lot.

It's not even frail. Eviolite gives it what amounts to 115 Def 85 SpD. That's with the standard offensive EV spread, by the way. Other than maybe full stall, there is literally no FU team that isn't better, doesn't win more consistently, if it runs Fraxure.

And there isn't even just one set you can exploit. Wait for it to Outrage and then switch in a Steel? Oops, it's running Dragon Claw and Low Kick. Fairies? Poison Jab says hi. Want to try to tank a hit? Guess what, it just used Outrage. Outspeed it with a revenge-Scarfer? Oh hey it has Sticky Web support. Guess we'll have to resort to emergency stat...nope it gets Taunt. I've seen people running Outrage and Dragon Claw on the same set and still winning, ffs.

I could go on and on and on and on but you get my point. Can we please just ban this thing and call it a day?
 
Slaking may be awful, but it's still fun to use.

On a more important note, I've heard talk of sun teams, but I'm having trouble actually building one. Anyone have tips on viable sun-setters and defoggers (besides Prinplup)?
Volbeat, Meowstic and Murkow have priority sun as Megazard Z said, Solrock is an interesting setter aswell as it has Stealth rock and can go boom. For sweepers there is Simisear, Rapidash, Sawsbuck and idk Bellosom? Swanna and Prinplup are good defoggers but they dont fit too well in on sun teams. Running Taunt Murkrow or fake out Purugly/Persian can keep hazards off the field suprisingly well, as there are very few good SR setters that can deal with them (lead Gabite gets rekt by Fake out + Return from Purugly or Persian as an example) Pretty much every spike setter is super niche and are hard taunt bait. Since there are so few good sun mons in FU (those who are good are REALLY good) you can run some super bulky things on your team, more sun setters or just slap on Machoke or Electabuzz to get some S-ranks in. Volt-turn between Buzz and Purugly (using persian atm since purugly is banned according to Showdown) is pretty amazing by giving your sun sweepers momentum
 

EV

not even to dinner with the kushners?
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No unfortunately....They haven't gotten back to me yet on what the verdict is. Just assume it's PU for now.
Verdict: Basculin will be tiered as one regardless of the color of its stripe, so with the current usage it's considered PU.
 
Yall are complaining about Fraxure and Gogoat and the Machoke so I decided to bring up this guy again:
grotle.gif
Grotle @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
252 HP / 200 Def / 52 SpD
Impish nature
Moves:
-Stockpile/Curse
-Earthquake / Seed bomb
-Synthesis
-Stealth Rock /Protect

This guy checks all of the above bar guts Machoke, Curse let's you get bulky af, Earthquake and seed bomb are your attacks, Synthesis heals, protect stalls

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Grotle: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO

Poison Jab does a little less than this and you can still start setting up Curse and what not, Fraxure without a boost is a 3hko, Grotle is super underrated but it's bulk is impressive

252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Grotle: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%) -- 92.7% chance to 4HKO

After knock off:
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Grotle: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Machoke is a can't even come close to a 2HKO, while you can recover and Curse more

Grotle basically walls tf out of Gogoat, Horn Leech does a miserable 21% at +2

Grotle is a solid check to the 3 most threatening Pokemon in the meta and can fulfill multiple roles, and although I'm pretty sure Quilladin can do this somewhat better

Edit:

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 150-177 (46 - 54.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

Quilladin doesn't have as much HP so nominating Grotle for C/B- rank
 
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The point to my using Slaking is that I WANT people to set up on it. Using that I can just switch to a prankster pokemon with encore and give myself a free turn to do what I want. The ability to basically one shot anything and then often setup for free I think is worth the inherent risks of Slaking.
 
The point to my using Slaking is that I WANT people to set up on it. Using that I can just switch to a prankster pokemon with encore and give myself a free turn to do what I want. The ability to basically one shot anything and then often setup for free I think is worth the inherent risks of Slaking.
Seriously, stop the Slaking posts, they're annoying and Slaking is still set up bait cuz they can just switch out of the encore and slaughter your prankster just like that and continue to set up
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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PU Leader
Yall are complaining about Fraxure and Gogoat and the Machoke so I decided to bring up this guy again:
View attachment 33333
Grotle @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
252 HP / 200 Def / 52 SpD
Impish nature
Moves:
-Stockpile/Curse
-Earthquake / Seed bomb
-Synthesis
-Stealth Rock /Protect

This guy checks all of the above bar guts Machoke, Curse let's you get bulky af, Earthquake and seed bomb are your attacks, Synthesis heals, protect stalls

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Grotle: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO

Poison Jab does a little less than this and you can still start setting up Curse and what not, Fraxure without a boost is a 3hko, Grotle is super underrated but it's bulk is impressive

252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Grotle: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%) -- 92.7% chance to 4HKO

After knock off:
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Grotle: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Machoke is a can't even come close to a 2HKO, while you can recover and Curse more

Grotle basically walls tf out of Gogoat, Horn Leech does a miserable 21% at +2

Grotle is a solid check to the 3 most threatening Pokemon in the meta and can fulfill multiple roles, and although I'm pretty sure Quilladin can do this somewhat better

Edit:

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 150-177 (46 - 54.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

Quilladin doesn't have as much HP so nominating Grotle for C/B- rank
I like is for beating machoke and gogoat without bulk up and aerial ace, but fraxure can simply taunt it when it comes in, earthquake doesn't do much and fraxure can simply DD a few more times and sweep.
 
Articuno is a criminally underrated Pokemon in FU at the moment, and the only thing really holding it back is Stealth Rock and the fact that it MUST be paired with a hazard remover, most of them all being shit minus Prinplup although it does nothing for offense. It's very strong, decently fast, and insanely bulky for an offensive Pokemon, making it a great choice for hyper and bulky offense. I've had success with Scarf, Specs, Life 3 attacks, SubRoost, and Agility.

Although your set is pretty standard, one thing that you should run in my opinion is HP Ground > HP Fire. There is absolutely nothing relevant that HP Fire hits in this metagame that HP Ground doesn't hit; HP Ground has the added advantage of smacking Lairon very hard as well as Magcargo and E-Buzz. Also if you don't need to hit any of the above, then you can always opt for Ice Beam, as it hits MUCH harder than Freeze Dry and gives you a backup STAB against neutral hits such as Electabuzz, Arbok, and Urasing. Also on offensive Roost sets, there is VERY little reason not to run a Life Orb, because the extra damage output goes an incredibly long way while Lefties just kind of makes it weak.
Thanks a lot for the advice, at first HP Fire was working pretty well but as I climbed up the ladder, HP Ground does seem like a better option. As for hazard placers/removers I don't really see any decent mons to do that kind of task in FU. Although, I really wish there was since they work really well with HO.
 

Gary

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Here are the results for the suspects that the council voted on. Keep in mind that Robert Alfons only voted for Sticky Web because he was the swing vote, so that's why it has 8 total votes vs 7.

Electabuzz: everyone voted no
Machoke: 5 ban, 2 DNB, 0 Abstain BANNED
Fraxure: 2 ban, 3 DNB, 2 Abstain
Kingler: 3 ban, 3 DNB, 1 Abstain
Gogoat: 0 ban, 5 DNB, 2 Abstain
Sticky Web: 4 ban, 3 DNB, 1 Abstain BANNED
D-Punch: who cares Machoke is banned
Murkrow: 1 ban, 4 BNB, 2 Abstain

Machoke is now banned from FU. Good lord have mercy that's a huge weight off FU shoulders. I'm very interested to see how much the meta changes now that one of the most centralizing and limiting Pokemon is now banned. For one thing, Rock-types such as Gigalith, Solrock, and Rampardos have it a lot easier now that they no longer have to worry about Machoke getting a free switch-in. Also every archetype in general got better, and now Eviolite is actually a lot more useful of an item, as well as Will-O-Wisp being a safe move to use again.

Fraxure, Kingler, and Sticky Web will for sure be suspected again in the near future because of how insanely close the votes were. Sticky Web in general was a very controversial topic because some believe that Sticky Web itself is broken, while others such as myself, feel like Leavanny is more of the problem. Anyways, have fun playing without Machoke!

EDIT: Abstain no longer counts as a DNB, which means that Sticky Web is now banned from FU. Disscus!
 
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Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
EDIT: Requesting Gary2346 to post the views of the council to clarify why some wanted and wanted not to ban the suspects



May the reign of terror begin. Most know my position on Regigigas and now you removed the only thing that held it back cold.

Sad Machoke was banned and Murkrow wasn't, but happy that Kingler and Webs stay.
 
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brightobject

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Heh, nice to see the one Pokemon I didn't add in the banner is getting banned right quick :-)

On another note, I've been playing around in FU a bit and Luxray isn't all that bad! both of his abilities can be utilized well, with Intimidate and VoltSwitch allowing it to act as a nice pivot and Guts letting it fire off powerful attacks or act as a status absorber
Not to mention it has decent bulk and attacking stats, being able to run physical, mixed, or even special :)

Snover with Icy Rock and Walrein can also be pretty cool, although Hail stall becomes harder to pull off against /competent/ teams

Beartic isn't terrible with Sticky Web either, although he's outclassed by a lot of stuff
 

Gary

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Okay so apparently there was a mix up with how the Abstain option was supposed to be treated. Originally it was going to be treated as an undecided but ultimately DNB vote, but after talking with my council we have decided to treat is as a no vote, much like the other tiers. This means that Sticky Web is banned :o

With a huge ban like that out of the way, I can only imagine how the meta will change. Because it was so controversial, Sticky Web can always be re-tested at a later date, but as of now, I'm keeping it banned for a bit to see if the meta improves or not.
 
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EDIT: Requesting Gary2346 to post the views of the council to clarify why some wanted and wanted not to ban the suspects

May the reign of terror begin. Most know my position on Regigigas and now you removed the only thing that held it back cold.
I've been using defensive Regigigas, and it's decent (certainly NOT unviable/E Rank like most people insist...). It's enormous 110/110/110 bulk allows it to spam parafusion (Confuse Ray is good for forcing switches) and Knock Off easily, and survive almost anything I want it to (which makes it a good last resort if a Pokemon has set up on you as it can usually survive a hit and cripple to allow a teammate to beat it). Some attacks from weaker Pokemon do so little to it that even just Leftovers heals a good chunk of the damage back. I haven't tried Substitute, but I'd imagine there's a fair few Pokemon in this metagame which can't break its subs in one hit. I've seen people use Drain Punch for recovery, but I don't think it's a good idea since it's not very strong. Special moves on Regigigas like Thunderbolt shouldn't be completely ruled out either, as thanks to Slow Start its special attack is on a similar level to its attack, and in a most matches you probably won't be keeping Regigigas in for 5 consecutive turns.

It does have many flaws. Knock Off and Toxic hurt it a lot, as do burns. Also it's great at spreading paralysis, but Confuse Ray doesn't always force a switch, some players choose to stay in and take the risk. It's also quite passive if you're using a defensive set, and if you use an offensive set it's very easy for the opponent to ruin you with things like Roar, Toxic, Intimidate, etc. For these reasons I don't think many experienced players will use this Pokemon, it's just not a top tier threat atm.
 

Kris

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I'm sooooooo glad that those both got banned. This allows a lot of Pokemon to be used without having crutches, such as regigigas
 

Gary

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The banning of Machoke basically buffed the entire meta. Because Machoke was so bulky and could check an incredibly large portion of the meta, anything that couldn't OHKO it before such as Electabuzz, the monkeys, Gabite, Fraxure, Rapidash, etc all got a little bit better. Rock- and Normal-types in general gained a lot of viability; especially the former because most Rock-types basically gave Machoke a free switch-in. And even with the banning of Machoke, lots of Pokemon that were hailed for the ability to reliably check Machoke are still pretty good because now they are less pressured and can opt to run other sets; Murkrow for example can now afford to forgo the Life Orb in exchange for Eviolite and play the bulkier role. Swanna on the other hand lost a decent amount of viability because not only was it a solid check to Machoke, but it was also a menace for Sticky Web teams because it had a good matchup against Leavanny was well as Pokemon commonly found on Webs such as Rampardos and Gogoat. Now that Sticky Web is banned, there's less of a reason to use Swanna as a defogger, although it's still the only good offensive hazard remover so it's not THAT bad.

The banning of Sticky Web hurt a lot of Pokemon as well as made others a lot better. Fraxure and Kingler depend a lot more on their Speed boosting moves in order to sweep through teams, and now they're a lot easier to revenge kill because of it. Other Pokemon such as Rapidash, the monkeys, Persian, and Electabuzz which depend a lot on their Speed, now have nothing to worry about and can now proceed to check many Pokemon more reliably. And then there's Pokemon such as Wigglytuff and Meowstic-F which were primarily used for their ability to punish Sticky Web teams, but now are more niche to punishing Defog. The former is still cool because it gets Stealth Rock and checks some pretty cool things, but the latter is really frail and weak as well as complete Scarf Krok bait, and not really worth it over other Psychic-types.
 
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