ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

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Surprised Gastly isn't even in the viability listing. It's got a really decent niche and the amount of ghost types in the tier means it's like the only offensive ghost in FU. It can also hold it's own with 90 base sp.atk and a decent movepool, and has great immunities with being a ghost and having levitate to go with it.
 
Interesting tier, and wonderful to see a tier list for all pokemon to be used at some level.
No Pokemon left behind!
 
Unfortunately it kinda gets shit on by Scarf Buzz, but other than that it looks like a powerful wallbreaker, easily A+/S rank.
inb4 someone who manages stats comes in and says basculin BS is still PU
 

Gary

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^ I really hope not :[ I mean it still doesn't make too much sense seeing as how Basculin Blue isn't even on the usage stats. I'm pretty sure technically speaking Basculin Blue should not be FU, but who cares we can at least abuse it while it's here.

In other news brightobject spent a really long time making us this awesome banner that will replace the extremely subpar shitty photoshop banner that I made in like 5 minutes. Everybody thank him for taking the time to make such an awesome contribution to this OM :]

 
Theoretically Blue and Red Striped should be treated as different forms because one has Rock Head and the other has Reckless, so the change isn't purely aestetich, unlike Vivillon, Gastrodon or even shiny Pokémon. Still, it's pretty lols to see Red Striped one tier above Blue Striped when their only difference is an ability that no one uses.
 
Question to the guys who posted their teams: why max HP on Gogoat? It has base 123 HP and 62 Def, wouldn't it tank physical hits much better investing some in Defense? Or does it need the higher special bulk for anything in particular?

Pretty cool tier guys! (Needs more Graveler and Golduck imo :o)

Edit: Yea I realize they can use BU, but still, the difference in stats would make +1 Def much better if you're actually investing in it (think of it like Assault Vest Conk, it gets much better bulk by investing in SpDef than in HP). It might not have come up often, but unless there's a special attack you're unable to take without max HP, you're making a better use of the stats with Defense investment.
 
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Ernesto ya man cause no joke a choice banded Slaking can 1hko a non defensive Gogoat while it not set up yet. i suggest 80 defense and 176 Sdef then 4 speed evs to outspeeds other or you can speed creep. Most people don't know about speed creeping while the right sets for this tier but it is understandable cause its new. But after all my main point is max HP always works on certain mons unless leftovers on them but taking away from Sdef is fine cause it is true, its like well whats gonna hit it?
 
Question to the guys who posted their teams: why max HP on Gogoat? It has base 123 HP and 62 Def, wouldn't it tank physical hits much better investing some in Defense? Or does it need the higher special bulk for anything in particular?

Pretty cool tier guys! (Needs more Graveler and Golduck imo)
Most Gogoats are BU so the defense is barely a problem

Also, Golduck is a mon I need to use, it was my favorite in gen 5 PU so I dont see why it should be bad here
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Question to the guys who posted their teams: why max HP on Gogoat? It has base 123 HP and 62 Def, wouldn't it tank physical hits much better investing some in Defense? Or does it need the higher special bulk for anything in particular?

Pretty cool tier guys! (Needs more Graveler and Golduck imo :o)

Edit: Yea I realize they're using BU, but still, the difference in stats would make +1 Def much better if you're actually investing in it (think of it like Assault Vest Conk, it gets much better bulk by investing in SpDef than in HP). It might not have come up often, but unless there's a special attack you're unable to take without max HP, you're making a better use of the stats with Defense investment.
Well my team was also using it and it wasn't Bulk Up (I don't find it that effective but that's talk for another day). It's a pure special wall set to wall things like Electabuzz and Simipour, then spread Toxic. I didn't thought about shifting HP EVs to defense before, but I guess I can do it on another Gogoat set I use full HP lol. Thanks!

Golduck is cool on weather-weak and Rain teams. I never faced/used Graveler tho.
 

Gary

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Ernesto ya man cause no joke a choice banded Slaking can 1hko a non defensive Gogoat while it not set up yet. i suggest 80 defense and 176 Sdef then 4 speed evs to outspeeds other or you can speed creep. Most people don't know about speed creeping while the right sets for this tier but it is understandable cause its new. But after all my main point is max HP always works on certain mons unless leftovers on them but taking away from Sdef is fine cause it is true, its like well whats gonna hit it?
That's kind of a poor example though because Slaking in general isn't all that relevant. I mean yeah it hits extremely hard and it's decently fast/bulky, but just like in every tier its in once it gets a kill, it's basically set up fodder for anything and everything. Other Pokemon like Gourgeist-S basically get a free switch into it anyway, and having to predict with something like Slaking is really annoying and not that great. I mean sure Slaking does do well against more balanced teams that lack the offensive pressure or set up sweepers, but against offense Slaking opens the door for something like Sub Coil Arbok, DD Fraxure, Sub BU Gogoat, Belly Drum Linoone, Agility Cuno, and against other teams it could give your opponent a free Defog, Rapid Spin, or opportunity to set up Spikes, Rocks, or webs. Slaking on paper looks really strong and broken, but against a decent player using a well built team, Slaking will most of the time be a viability that in the end, can cost you the match.
 
Yellow Cheese ya Golduck was fun back in the day but maybe try Grumpig, it seems like a much better sweeper with coverage like calm mind and even a heal bell! Also way bulkier.

How in hell do you compare Grumpig with Golduck? Golduck is a jack of all trades, Grumpig is a defensive wall or a bulky attacker at best.

Also can you stop the oneliners about slaking? If you want to prove that slaking is good than take some time pls

Personal experience from trying out Slaking:
I never found myself glad over using it over Sawsuck (who has better typing, ability and high BP coverage) or another nuke like band Zweilious or Band Rapidash. It is setup fodder for the extremly powerful SubPlot Simisear and the equally strong DD fraxure, and gets hardwalled by Solrock unless you run night slash which does jack shit to anything not weak to it (it fails to 2hko even standard fraxure and Gourgeist-small is barely 2hkoed and can wisp+stall you out with ease). Yes it hits retaredly hard with Giga impact or Return or whatever coverage move you use, but as said before, you become fodder for extremely powerful setupsweepers. I would not care to sack metang if that means simisear gets Nasty plot up, or if swanna dies so Sawsbuck can SD freely

The infamous mummyking also only works against low-tier teams 90% of the time, and even with mummy it gets rekt by Machoke and the Simis with just a little prior damage. yamask is trash outside of that strategy anyways. (experience from previous gen)
 

Gary

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I stand but my stance on Slaking. I myself would know because I too thought Slaking had a lot of potential in FU at one point. However, I'm telling you that any competent player with a well built team is going to have no problem dealing with Slaking, trust me. I built several teams all utilizing Slaking without having to resort to that gay mummy strat, and every match Slaking got plenty of kills, but it usually all ended in my losing to a set up sweeper. The insane amount of momentum Slaking gives the opponent is so stupid, and it gives them so many free opportunities to come in to something like Fraxure, Arbok, Sub Simipour/Simisear, Sub SD Sawsbuck, Agility Articuno, Klang, Sub BU Gogoat, Huntail, Machoke, SD Quick Feet Ursaring, Agility Kingler, Sub Seed Gourgeist-S, etc etc. Not just that, but you're giving shit like Leavanny a free turn to set up Sticky Web or something like Quilladen to get up 2 layers of Spikes.

It's just an insane momentum killer, and no mass wall of calcs nor amount of Pokemon it revenge kills can deny that. If the tier was nothing but a bunch of passive bulky Pokemon Slaking would reign supreme, but that's far from the truth, because for every passive wall there's a shit ton of set up sweepers or offensive Pokemon waiting to take advantage of every free opportunity they can get to set up all over your face, and Slaking gives them all of that. No matter how many tiers Slaking drops it's always going to be subpar until it reaches a tier where there are barely any set up sweepers and nothing but super passive defensive Pokemon that can't do anything back.
 
If you haven't seen lilleep, here's a useful set, with its great mixed bulk:

Lileep @ Eviolite
Ability: Storm Drain
248 HP /168 Def /92 SpD or 92 Def /168 SpD
Bold/Calm/Impish/Careful
Moves:
-Protect/Recover
-Toxic/Leech Seed
-Stealth Rock/Curse/Stockpile
-Giga Drain/Rock Tomb/Ingrain/

At first sight, Lileep is Setup bait, but it can fulfill a troll/stall roll while setting up rocks for you. Protect makes it a godly toxic staller, Leech Seed is another stall move it can use, Recover is for recovery.

Stealth rock is rocks, curse is for physical boosts, Stockpile is for mixed bulk.

The last move slot has way too many options
-Giga Drain: Prevents struggle and recovery
-Rock Tomb: Cripples w/ Spe drops
-Ingrain: phazing doesn't work + more recovery
-Body Slam: Neat 30% chance to paralyze
-Pain Split: Troll recovery w/ damage
-Magic coat: Anti-lead's perfect move
-Sludge bomb: alternative to Toxic
-Confuse ray: Troll 100% confuse
-Infestation:Troll trapping move
-Mud Slap: accuracy troll

A more ideal set would be Anti-lead:
-Magic Coat
-Stealth Rock
-Recover/Pain Split
-Protect/Rock Tomb

Magic Coat bounces back crap like Taunt, Spikes, Rocks.
Stealth Rock is rocks
Recover/Pain Split for recovery and the latter for troll damage
Protect for stall while Rock Tomb cripples speed or body slam for parahax

I hope this post really shows the potential of Lileep and its amazing support movepool

EDIT:

Storm Drain >Suction Cups cuz immunities are amazing

I know someone is gonna comment on how much better Leavanny can anti-lead, but I don't see it having troll moves
 
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Gary

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Okay just a heads up the FU council and some notable users that I personally selected are doing a mini suspect voting thing at the moment where we are voting on whether or not to ban certain stuff that has been brought up. The only reason we're holding off on doing an actual suspect test is because obviously our player base is not big enough at the moment. Don't worry, I made sure my voters are of top quality. Here's the full list of what's being voted on and why. Remember, anything that was brought up to me by my council or deemed broken by many users was added to this list, so some of the suspects might seem a bit weird but that doesn't mean they're getting banned. We should be done with the voting by the end of this week, and I'll let you guys know the results.

Electabuzz: One of the council members told me they thought it was broken, so I had to put it on here. It's being suspected because it is extremely centralizing in the meta, and at times it is sometimes seen as limiting team building.

Machoke: Another very centralizing Pokemon that lacks very little switch-ins or reliable answers. It is strong, very bulky, and nearly impossible to OHKO or sometimes even 2HKO. Guts make it nearly impossible to beat defensively, as it's not crippled by burn and statusing it only makes it stronger. Dynamicpunch is an extremely gay move that can sweep teams without even trying. It's definitely one of the most requested suspects, and for good reason.

Fraxure: The best sweeper in the tier hands down. Its bulky with Eviolite, so it can set up on a lot of things, and its strong so it only really needs one boost to sweep through most teams. Taunt shutsdown defensive Pokemon and prevents them from phazing or statusing it. Its combination of bulk, power, and easy set up opportunities make it very suspect worthy.

Kingler: One of the strongest Pokemon in the tier. Its great defensive bulk lets it set up on even shit like Life Orb Rapidash, and its so strong that an unboosted Crabhmmaer can OHKO most offensive Pokemon. Agility sets sweep very easily, and the SD Sub Salac set is unwallable as well. Knock Off cripples a lot of physical walls. In general, there are very little defensive answer to Kingler, and not too many offensive ones either.

Gogoat: Very bulky and versatile, being able to run a multitude of sets and living almost any non super effective hit. It also has great coverage and reliable recovery, which makes it rather unpredictable and hard to wear down.

Sticky Web: The best move in the tier aside from Knock Off. Leavanny is an amazing web setter, as well as Kricketune so it's rather easy to set the move up, and both aren't that bad of Pokemon so they're well worth using for Sticky Web. This move lets you abuse powerhouses such as Ursaring and Rampardos that are normally slow as fuck and easy to revenge. Add to the fact that FU lacks solid hazard removers, which only makes the move that much better.

Dynamic Punch: Some would say that this is the only reason Machoke is very unmanageable. Every time this move connects, which is 100% of the time, the match comes down to a coin flip, adding a huge amount of uncompetiveness to the game each time this move is used. So this move is being suspected because it has been deemed very uncomeptitive, and it should be removed from the tier.

Murkrow: A strong revenge killer with Life Orb, as well as a bulky sweeper or defensive pivot with Eviolite. It has access to many support moves such as Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Tailwind, allowing it to abuse its Prankster ability to the fullest extent. It is being suspected because a member of the council has said it's way too easy to set up Calm Minds and sweep, on top of that fact that its priority Thunder Wave is too easy of an E-Button.

You're free to discuss this if you want but remember don't start freaking out or else I'll just ignore you post.
 
Electabuzz: One of the council members told me they thought it was broken, so I had to put it on here. It's being suspected because it is extremely centralizing in the meta, and at times it is sometimes seen as limiting team building.
In my experiences from playing, Electabuzz is quite fine really. Eviolite sets are unique and are really interesting, but they just lack raw firepower, while Choice Scarf and Choice Specs set are really easy to play around. Personally, I use Choice Specs for the raw power and it's a really useful Pokemon but it's quite hard to predict and it has a ton of safe switch ins, including Fraxure (can't be giving it free turns!), Machoke, Zwelious, Metang, and Whiscash. Whiscash is really underrated right now, but it can counter Fraxure which is a huge bonus, but this is a discussion for a later time. I don't think it's limiting in teambuilding, it does have solid checks and of the three teams I've made (so many!), they've just naturally had fantastic checks. Plus, with Choice Scarf Gabite and Choice Scarf Krokorok in the tier, it's not exactly a super hard Pokemon to revenge kill. This would be a no ban.

Machoke: Another very centralizing Pokemon that lacks very little switch-ins or reliable answers. It is strong, very bulky, and nearly impossible to OHKO or sometimes even 2HKO. Guts make it nearly impossible to beat defensively, as it's not crippled by burn and statusing it only makes it stronger. Dynamicpunch is an extremely gay move that can sweep teams without even trying. It's definitely one of the most requested suspects, and for good reason.
Machoke is a very tough Pokemon to call a case on, but I'll just have to be blunt. Machoke is a super bulky, powerful, and annoying Pokemon, and I'm really not a fan of it in the tier. I know this isn't exactly a reason for banning, but Dynamic Punch is so annoying and is just the worst thing ever. Furthermore, its astounding bulk means it's hardly ever KOed, so it will likely get off a Dynamic Punch. I've yet to try out the defensive sets, but they seem to have merit and I'm sure they're probably fantastic for me. The only problem with Machoke I've found is its terribly lackluster Speed and annoying priority in Bullet Punch, which means Fairy-types are a hard stop to it. It has a number of good checks, such as Arbok, Clefairy, and Spritzee, but it's still very annoying to deal with regardless. I'd have to go with ban on this one.

Fraxure: The best sweeper in the tier hands down. Its bulky with Eviolite, so it can set up on a lot of things, and its strong so it only really needs one boost to sweep through most teams. Taunt shutsdown defensive Pokemon and prevents them from phazing or statusing it. Its combination of bulk, power, and easy set up opportunities make it very suspect worthy.
This thing is absolutely atrocious. If it's given simply one free turn, it can destroy entire teams from scratch. The only support it really needs is maybe Sticky Web, and even then there's a stretch. Fraxure's excellent typing and really great bulk, on top of its high Attack and the menace that is Dragon Dance, it's just too much for the tier. Taunt is just cherry on the cake! Fraxure is just way too powerful for the tier and would deserve to be banned.

Kingler: One of the strongest Pokemon in the tier. Its great defensive bulk lets it set up on even shit like Life Orb Rapidash, and its so strong that an unboosted Crabhmmaer can OHKO most offensive Pokemon. Agility sets sweep very easily, and the SD Sub Salac set is unwallable as well. Knock Off cripples a lot of physical walls. In general, there are very little defensive answer to Kingler, and not too many offensive ones either.
Kingler is a very powerful Pokemon, but I'm just not sold on the idea of banning it. Kingler has terrible bulk and is really hard to bring in without U-turn, and when it does get switch ins it runs the risk of being forced out by a faster Pokemon. I realize this is the case for practically all Pokemon, but when playing with Kingler it just becomes really noticeable to me. Sure, it's insanely strong, but it's so pressured to setup and then there's Crabhammer's accuracy which just so happens to miss in all crucial moments. I think Kingler is just a very good Pokemon in the tier, but just not banworthy. No ban.

Unless you're using Scald Sheer Force Kingler!

Gogoat: Very bulky and versatile, being able to run a multitude of sets and living almost any non super effective hit. It also has great coverage and reliable recovery, which makes it rather unpredictable and hard to wear down.
Ban. Plain and simple, this thing is so versatile, powerful, and you can't afford to give it any free turns or Bulk Up will walk over your team. Its immunity to Grass-type moves is a lot better than I originally thought it was as well. Personally, I've had success with Choice Band variants, as the Leaf Blade coming off of its Attack stat is just delicious. Anyways, it's just too good for the tier and isn't much to say about it.

Sticky Web: The best move in the tier aside from Knock Off. Leavanny is an amazing web setter, as well as Kricketune so it's rather easy to set the move up, and both aren't that bad of Pokemon so they're well worth using for Sticky Web. This move lets you abuse powerhouses such as Ursaring and Rampardos that are normally slow as fuck and easy to revenge. Add to the fact that FU lacks solid hazard removers, which only makes the move that much better.
No comment, abstain.

Dynamic Punch: Some would say that this is the only reason Machoke is very unmanageable. Every time this move connects, which is 100% of the time, the match comes down to a coin flip, adding a huge amount of uncompetiveness to the game each time this move is used. So this move is being suspected because it has been deemed very uncomeptitive, and it should be removed from the tier.
I'm okay with this being banned and then Machoke not being banned. I actually think it's a better idea now, as it really only affects Machoke. +1.

Murkrow: A strong revenge killer with Life Orb, as well as a bulky sweeper or defensive pivot with Eviolite. It has access to many support moves such as Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Tailwind, allowing it to abuse its Prankster ability to the fullest extent. It is being suspected because a member of the council has said it's way too easy to set up Calm Minds and sweep, on top of that fact that its priority Thunder Wave is too easy of an E-Button.
No comment, abstain.
 
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